Celven Agorophobia

[Cind]

In my mind, its a balance between roleplay and convenience. One should not completely trump the other or players will start losing interest in that role.

For example, some of my humans end up practically living in a cave or enclosed area where they mine or forage, since clearing a quarry or deposit when your forage skill is below journeyman can take a little over a game day. Sometimes, its also a good idea for my characters that can leave the gates (nonemployed) to stay away from the city for longer periods, due to Shit Going Down, since my characters who aren't insane don't want to become dragon or noble fodder.

If I were playing a c-elf I make sure I don't do this. Why? "I feel uncomfortable staying outside for that long." That's basically what it boils down to. They don't know the words 'psychology' or 'culture.' If my character has strong reason to be uncomfortable somewhere, than they will be, at least past a certain number of game hours.

Other people play differently. Of course they will. Honestly, as long as their c-elf isn't riding a beetle and covered in tribal paint I'm pretty happy.

[Brokkr]

You are asking the wrong questions.

City elves spend most of their time in the city. That is their environment. Like the desert is the environment for desert elves. To the extent that years ago city based guilds were removed as options for desert elves, completely. And rangers were removed for city elves, completely. And in the new dynamic, criminal focused classes are not available to desert elves. Wilderness focused classes are not available to city elves.

Classes represent the potential competencies that a character can develop. In this case what the code is saying is that as a city elf or desert elf, you will not be in that environment enough to develop competencies, as such an encompassing statement that we have removed the class option altogether.

My apologies for reposting this. But I couldnt really answer in the 'ask the staff' section. Please understand, your response is not enough, Brokkr. What your response boils down to is that Celven are not competent in the wilderness. And that's fine. But this isnt the question. The question is how 'thematic' is it of them to do it regardless. And it is a question that should be elaborated, because (If I read it right?) someone lost karma over being a wilderness prone Celf? I might be misremembering the post?  It is my opinion that this topic should explored and illuminated most thoroughly and then canonized, so there is no further misunderstandings.


It will affect some simple decisions.

For example. A celven warrior, an enforcer thug. His Boss/tribemate asked for some poisons.

Should the Celf
A: Try to hire a half-elf breed to ride out and harvest the poison that 'only' grows in the wilderness.
B: Go there himself, or perhaps in a group of elves, to harvest the poisons themselves.

Is there a risk of appearing unthemathic and not following the Celven in theme behavior to do B? If so. Okey. I myself am a proponent of THAT behavior personally. But this should be spelled out, in case someone is misunderstanding and later suffering due to the misunderstanding.  Think of it as important as a simple question of, "Should a dwarf have a focus?"

The first question that would come to mind is how would the C-Elf know where to go, or how, to harvest the poisons?  Beyond that, facts and circumstances.

As far as I know we haven't recently approached folks that were going for the occasional outside run.  The concern was folks spending a majority of their time outside a city with a C-elf, or expressed a desire in doing things that could lead to this.

[Vex]

The first question that would come to mind is how would the C-Elf know where to go, or how, to harvest the poisons?  Beyond that, facts and circumstances.

As far as I know we haven't recently approached folks that were going for the occasional outside run.  The concern was folks spending a majority of their time outside a city with a C-elf, or expressed a desire in doing things that could lead to this.

How, does anyone from Allanak, know how to do any of the things they do?

It shouldn't really matter if it's a protracted adventure, or a five minute jaunt. There is nothing, and I do mean NO-THING, in the docs, pertaining to city elves, about this supposed agoraphobia, nor is there any real indication that anyone, can find/identify any documentation, pertaining to it. There is phrasing in the docs, that even suggest they do tend towards some roaming, as has been pointed out.

There is ABSOLUTELY no documentation that mentions, references, or even suggests in definitive terms, that there is celven agoraphobia, and it is a strict requirement. Not only this, but I can say, from personal experience, as having played one who was almost exclusively an "adventurer" type, that I had never once had staff approach me about it. I had that character for, what, over a year, and interacted with people, from virtually every clan in the game.

How can, someone who is a walking, talking, monster slaying poster child, for this, apparently karma dumping offense, never get so much, as a "hey, whats up with you?", from staff, in such a long period of time?

Your argument, is all smoke. It's propped up, EXCLUSIVELY, because you are a member of the staff and people are wary of upsetting you, because you hold some sway over their karma, and their ability to enjoy the game. Had you been a regular player, and tried to press this argument, players would be piling on you from every side. And everyone knows it.

If you've got the docs, and can provide a reasonable argument, for how a new player is supposed to come, to your preferred conclusion, show me. I'll bow out, I'll concede I was wrong. I'll never post on the GDB again. I'll retire my pc, and never roll an elf again. You name it.

But, I don't think you can.

As I said in a request, as politely as I could manage, the IDEAL solution to this, would be an update to the documentation, to outline this, apparently new/unknown expectation, eliminating player confusion and misunderstanding. Just amend one paragraph, for all of us dummies, who can't interpret your vision. It's so easy.

Fixing docs and letting the pbase know, via announcement or log in news, is way easier, than mending fences, with people who presume themselves persecuted, or otherwise poorly treated, by high handed staff.

Being reasonable, isn't hard. Just try.

[evilcabbage]

i'll just leave a tidbit of a reminder that there is no racial difference between city and desert elves. they are the same race.

[seidhr]

Posting anything that could link you to a previous PC (alive within the last year) is against the rules.  Just a reminder.

[seidhr]

We have amended the "help city elf" help file with information that specifics our expectations for city elves and travel.

This information also applies to desert elves, in a converse sense, but we have not seen this be a problem with d-elves, and it's already covered specifically for them in the existing "help desert elf roleplay" helpfile.

[Dar]

Seems pretty solid.


Would this have helped you some Vex, if you read it prior to the problems you mentioned?

[Vex]

Seems pretty solid.
Would this have helped you some Vex, if you read it prior to the problems you mentioned?

It would have, and will going forward. There is never a situation, wherein knowing more about your role, is a bad thing. Many frustrations, on both sides, can be alleviated, by something so simple. I'd also add that, it is well-written and completely in line, with everything that was explained to me, through requests.

Having it there, in the open, for everyone to see, can only be a benefit to new, and not so new players alike.

Well done.

[Synthesis]

I feel like that was an entirely unnecessary change that's only going to be used to bludgeon people who are only trying to make the best of playing what is already a garbage-ass racial choice.

Don't get me wrong...I play a lot of city-elves...but only because I enjoy the challenge of being garbage.

[sleepyhead]

The new helpfile additions seem to be implying that city elves are not allowed to permanently move from one civilized settlement to another. Is this true?

[Vex]

I feel like that was an entirely unnecessary change that's only going to be used to bludgeon people who are only trying to make the best of playing what is already a garbage-ass racial choice.

Don't get me wrong...I play a lot of city-elves...but only because I enjoy the challenge of being garbage.

It was an issue, even before this thread was raised.

Now, it's properly documented, and people will know about it. I've ruffled enough feathers over this, that I don't care to debate the merits of the change, but I do feel, it was a positive outcome, and a step in the right direction.

[yousuff]

I feel like that was an entirely unnecessary change that's only going to be used to bludgeon people who are only trying to make the best of playing what is already a garbage-ass racial choice.

Don't get me wrong...I play a lot of city-elves...but only because I enjoy the challenge of being garbage.

It was an issue, even before this thread was raised.

Now, it's properly documented, and people will know about it. I've ruffled enough feathers over this, that I don't care to debate the merits of the change, but I do feel, it was a positive outcome, and a step in the right direction.

+1

[Erythil]

I've never heard any of this, and I've seen a lot of really competent c-elf outdoorsmen, in the Kuraci Fist, for example.  Some of these people were sufficiently badass that the rest of us stoically endured the absurd bullshit of having a whole convoy of mounts and wagons sit and wait for the one dude to rest up in a tent because apparently he's racially incapable of sitting on a wagon platform.

Maybe city elves don't have a natural talent for the wilderness, but who does have a natural talent for a wilderness full of things that can twoshot any mortal?

[Shalooonsh]

Maybe city elves don't have a natural talent for the wilderness, but who does have a natural talent for a wilderness full of things that can twoshot any mortal?

I tried to think of a simpler way to say it, but the least I could cut it down to is two words:

Desert elves.

[Drayab]

Years ago I was playing a hunter human who started up a friendship with a celf craftsman. Of course, it was very awkward at first, racial distrust and all that. Then one day the celf decided we were going to go hunting together. My hunter of course said this was a terrible idea because it the celf would obviously need babysitting while out there, since they suck in the wilderness. The celf made up some excuse about 'needed to see how you work' or something like that. Basically, they insisted that we were going to do this thing. Of course, this was the elf's way to testing whether my human was trustworthy. I have no idea of the player of that elf had some backup plan in case I decided to backstab him, but I didn't. We had a successful hunt together, and for long after those characters had a profitable friendship. It was the most memorable human-elf friendship I ever played. So, don't tell me there can't be good RP reasons for a celf to go in the desert!

[Brokkr]

I've never heard any of this, and I've seen a lot of really competent c-elf outdoorsmen, in the Kuraci Fist, for example.  Some of these people were sufficiently badass that the rest of us stoically endured the absurd bullshit of having a whole convoy of mounts and wagons sit and wait for the one dude to rest up in a tent because apparently he's racially incapable of sitting on a wagon platform.

Maybe city elves don't have a natural talent for the wilderness, but who does have a natural talent for a wilderness full of things that can twoshot any mortal?

Competency is not what we are talking about at all.

The role play restrictions for the race is what we are talking about.

[Delirium]

I do think it's nonsense that elves can't guard an argosy while it's moving. It isn't as if they're relying on it for transportation. They are doing a job. They're not on the back of a creature, letting it be their legs, they are guarding property. Same with skimmers. Let elves take skimmers out, it's not a situation where (normal) people can walk on the silt sea, and a skimmer is an inanimate object controlled by the elf's own skill.

Realistically, an elf would be able to walk alongside an argosy at the pace it travels without having to stop to rest, but due to the way the stamina code works, they don't regain stamina unless actually sitting down. So until and unless that gets fixed, just fudge things a bit to let elf players participate without having to make every mission annoying from a code standpoint.

We really have to consider playability from a game standpoint when insisting on certain restrictions to this ride-or-die (literally, lol) "ELVES ONLY USE THEIR OWN TWO FEET" logic.

[Synthesis]

Roleplay restrictions:  designed and intended to be the cheesy low-level, throw-away antagonist PC that you play while waiting for your karma to regen for your next real PC.

[MeTekillot]

Yep

[Brokkr]

Designed to give a challenge to folks focusing on challenge in their role play, rather than folks looking for a coded challenge.

[MeTekillot]

But like, it's also an enormous coded challenge, so double the challenge. Double the fun

[Synthesis]

Ha, yeah.  It just boggles my mind that for years players have been begging Staff to make c-elves less shitty, and what do they do...make 'em shittier (if only slightly so).

[Brokkr]

I've never found them to be much of a coded challenge, as long as they stayed in a city?

At least vs any other character that just stayed in a city.  It was more RP challenges in not being able to join clans, etc.  This reinforces them staying in their nice comfortable city environment where they can be shifty, and not trying to live out in the wastes were they are, indeed, shitty.

[MeTekillot]

What are the roleplay challenges of playing a dwarf to go with their beefy coded benefits?

[Veselka]

I've never found them to be much of a coded challenge, as long as they stayed in a city?

At least vs any other character that just stayed in a city.  It was more RP challenges in not being able to join clans, etc.  This reinforces them staying in their nice comfortable city environment where they can be shifty, and not trying to live out in the wastes were they are, indeed, shitty.

It would be cool if there were coded benefits to being in a city -- Passive stamina regeneration, for instance, to sort of mirror Desert Elves' ability to run long distances in the wastes. Improved passive bonuses to hide and sneak while in the city. They should be the 'king of shifty' in the city for sure, and it'd be cool to offer them some coded reasons to stay in a city rather than risk their neck in the wilderness.