PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It

[lostinspace]

making poisons is possible, using them is considerably more difficult.

[Dar]

That's why I asked about empirical evidence. I think the problem is that people do not 'see' the soldiers and think that the place is unprotected. While in reality, it is very much not. I think people are sort of guesstimating here. Assassinations in Gaj is possible.  Assassinations in Reds. I've seen it happen, but never with backstab, never up front. A melee fight in the Red usually ends faster then a person can finish reading the text of the fight.

I guess if people think taverns are safe to PK they should give it a go and see what happens.

[Delirium]

You're right, there shouldn't be off-duty soldiers in the Arboretum. There should be off-duty Templars.

Mostly I hate that the Gaj is "super safe soldier central" because when I hang out there I want to feel like I'm hanging out at Mos Eisley.

Edit: to be clear, I'm arguing for some taverns to be less safe, and the higher-class establishments to be the ones you go to and feel cozy.

[Armaddict]

Eh, I think that the doorman that you can't get past without everyone screaming 'TWINK' and 'ABUSE' is probably enough to keep it pretty safe.

[Dar]

You're right, there shouldn't be off-duty soldiers in the Arboretum. There should be off-duty Templars.

Mostly I hate that the Gaj is "super safe soldier central" because when I hang out there I want to feel like I'm hanging out at Mos Eisley.

Edit: to be clear, I'm arguing for some taverns to be less safe, and the higher-class establishments to be the ones you go to and feel cozy.

It's best not to have off duty templars there. Because Templars and nobility in general are too significant to ignore and continue on with your thing, when they're in the same damn room. Maybe lieutenants and captains, but not templars. Templars have their own tavern to get pissed drunk in.

[Vex]

I'd be curious to find out, how many of these pcs who died, and their players are crazy irate about it, were involved in mudsex heavy relationships, when it happened? I have noticed, people who tend towards proxy romance, are also the people who completely lose their minds, when they (or, to a lesser degree, for some weird reason, their pretend lovers) die, and the fantasy bubble is taken away.

That, is a staff perspective, I would love to hear about.

I have to agree I have never once seen any pcs in the aboretum.

Eh, I think that the doorman that you can't get past without everyone screaming 'TWINK' and 'ABUSE' is probably enough to keep it pretty safe.

Same could be said, for burglars sneaking sofas and large bags full of armor, past apartment minders described as leaning in the doorway. How many times, have you snuck past, one of those, and never gave it a second thought?

[Delirium]

a) From people who aren't abusive twinks, sure.
b) I think it makes complete sense to be able to sneak past the doorman as long as you look like you belong.

Granted, I'm not sure how that code works or how foolproof it is against sneaky-types, but sneak/hide is pretty powerful stuff that can conveniently breeze past posted guards, narrow hallways, and furniture-less rooms, so I'm not really willing to rely on the good roleplay of others to keep an area safe. Plus, the times I have had a PC who would peek into the Arboretum, it was always empty. That is probably why nobody gets ganked there. Because it is empty. Probably because it is not safe (and because everyone hangs out at the Gaj and the Red's). And around and around we go.

I'm totally fine with everyone hanging out at the Red's or the Gaj, mind you. Congregation is good. I just happen to agree with Bebop on this one - having zero militia protection in the most high-class establishment in the city is ridiculous, and probably due to a simple staff/builder oversight when it was created. The Trader's Inn had soldiers, and the Arboretum is the Traders' replacement.

Dar: say that to the noble that would always hang out in the Traders'. Or any noble or templar PC that is in the Arboretum bar area. But if it bothers you, then just put the important Templar/Noble NPCs inside the Arboretum and the high-up off-duty militia captain NPCs in the bar area. That would make perfect sense.

[Armaddict]

Eh, I wasn't calling it infallible or effective.  Kind of the opposite, really.  But I was saying that instances where you go through that step willy-nilly tend to come under close scrutiny by nature of the thing.

I guess I didn't really account for 'if you look like you belong', because...well.  I play elves. XD

[Dar]

I'd be curious to find out, how many of these pcs who died, and their players are crazy irate about it, were involved in mudsex heavy relationships, when it happened? I have noticed, people who tend towards proxy romance, are also the people who completely lose their minds, when they (or, to a lesser degree, for some weird reason, their pretend lovers) die, and the fantasy bubble is taken away.

That, is a staff perspective, I would love to hear about.

Are you seriously asking staff to give you stats of how many people who died were involved in mudsex sessions?

I would also genuinely recommend you not to demean people's choices of gameplay. Do people want to play more drama/relationship themed stories? That's their prerogative and they have every right to do it.

[Bebop]

a) From people who aren't abusive twinks, sure.
b) I think it makes complete sense to be able to sneak past the doorman as long as you look like you belong.

Granted, I'm not sure how that code works or how foolproof it is against sneaky-types, but sneak/hide is pretty powerful stuff that can conveniently breeze past posted guards, narrow hallways, and furniture-less rooms, so I'm not really willing to rely on the good roleplay of others to keep an area safe. Plus, the times I have had a PC who would peek into the Arboretum, it was always empty. That is probably why nobody gets ganked there. Because it is empty. Probably because it is not safe (and because everyone hangs out at the Gaj and the Red's). And around and around we go.

I'm totally fine with everyone hanging out at the Red's or the Gaj, mind you. Congregation is good. I just happen to agree with Bebop on this one - having zero militia protection in the most high-class establishment in the city is ridiculous, and probably due to a simple staff/builder oversight when it was created. The Trader's Inn had soldiers, and the Arboretum is the Traders' replacement.

Dar: say that to the noble that would always hang out in the Traders'. Or any noble or templar PC that is in the Arboretum bar area. But if it bothers you, then just put the important Templar/Noble NPCs inside the Arboretum and the high-up off-duty militia captain NPCs in the bar area. That would make perfect sense.

The other thing is that having the Aboretum guarded is that it increases the potential for RP and it is IG and canon for guards to be there.  So if it's more desirable for people in high society to hang out there it creates more possibility for noble and commoner interaction.  It also allows for player discrimination and a better emphasis on social class  warfare because that won't fit in there like half elves, magickers and other undesirables won't be allowed and thusly won't be afforded the privilege of the protection the muckity mucks have. 

I'm not anti PK.  But assassination should be work.  Following someone, catching them off guard.  You shouldn't be able to walk into super crowded watering holes (especially ones where nobles and Templars hang out) and be able to kill someone without coded consequences or being identified.  Especially not at night when these places would be busiest.  In the Gaj maybe you can shiv a bitch.  Less so in Reds.  Definitely not easily in the Arboretum ...and that should be reflected codedly.

In some ways taverns in the rinth are literally more safe than the Arboretum if you have the right connections.  Taverns are a place where plots and interactions that hook players happen.  It's important that codely their relative levels of safety be codedly correct.

[Dar]

I'm not anti PK.  But assassination should be work.  Following someone, catching them off guard.  You shouldn't be able to walk into super crowded watering holes (especially ones where nobles and Templars hang out) and be able to kill someone without coded consequences or being identified. 

Do you have any what so ever experience that this isnt the case already? I'm not being snarky, or baiting, I'm genuinely asking. Have Arboretum proved to be unprotected somehow to just simply walking in and backstabbing in the history of it's existence?

[Armaddict]

Yeah, I didn't want to convolute what was being discussed but uh...assassinations are not easy unless circumstance just lines up in your favor.  Unless you don't care if you survive it or not.

[Miradus]

Assassins are extremely difficult unless you shadow someone into an apartment. Or you've twinked up enough to know you can backstab them and instakill (which for some reason doesn't trigger the guards).

You have no idea how many hours I've spent hiding in a tavern WAITING for a target to quit talking and go somewhere I can stab them, just to have them walk ONE ROOM AWAY and quit out. After I painstakingly spent weeks figuring out which apartment they had, who their friends were who would miss them, etc. And watching laboriously while hidden as they type something one every eight minutes because they're playing from a fucking phone. Or only to have someone come in with master scan and immediately spot you.

[Bebop]

It's taking every fiber of my being not to be sarcastic at this moment. But I've been playing since 2004 yes I have experience with P K on both sides of PK. Someone doesn't need to get killed in the Arboretum anytime soon for what I'm saying to be relevant.

[Dar]

Arboretum as a tavern have not been around long, Bebop. Maybe six years? I dont think it 'ever' had an assassination performed there. Not yet anyway.

[Delirium]

Cool, I'm gonna roll up in there and assassinate someone to prove an already obvious point! Who wants to be my pincushion?!

Oh wait, nobody hangs out there. I WONDER WHY.

This has been a failure of the sarcasm restraint program. Now rebooting to friendly helper status.

I remember when it was built. When it was first implemented, there was a door object that remained closed at all times, to keep out the rif-raff. Now, there is not, because people complained that it was not easy to do a drive-by look and see if there was anyone to interact with. As a consequence, the place is way less secure than it was intended to be. All you have to do is think about it logically. No militia security there is an obvious oversight that should be corrected, and hopefully will.

[Miradus]

Also, outside of a random dwarf griefer, not a lot of hits go down in bars. I've heard of one in the past six months, and that was pretty much just the guards not triggering on the backstab, as well as no crimcode.

Now I HAVE successfully killed people in the backrooms of Red's, but the getaway has to be very, very good in order to pull that off. Half giant guards teleport through closed curtains and you've literally got to run past a bunch of guards to get to safety. A bunch of guards.

The Arboretum, shit, you'd have to see someone USING it before you could kill them in there. I don't remember the last time I walked by and looked north and saw someone.

It is easier to shadow someone into a clan compound and gank them then it is to pull off a hit in a tavern. Assuming the person you kill in the compound has the keys to the gate.

Most people get killed in an apartment because there's no crimcode. Pure and simple. Pkillers are not griefers. We don't want to lose our characters just to kill yours. And the vast majority of the time, I am not even interested in why you're going to die. Someone paid to have you die. The player killing you is probably just the knife being delivered.

ALSO, there's the vnpc world. I have had, after I committed a murder up on the rooftops, some random fucking mobile you walk by a thousand times summon the Jade Sabers to arrest me. I think if you do get someone in the Arboretum, you can probably expect that sort of shit to happen to you as well.

I would never, ever murder someone on the tavern floor, whether it's the Arboretum or the Folley. It's just too dangerous, both IC and OOC.

[Armaddict]

I don't expect much of the whole 'soldiers' debate to actually shift much, but I -would- like to say...personal security in public spaces?  Protection from assassinations?

*COUGH* HIREGUARDS! *COUGH*

Seriously.  I loved playing bodyguards, when there were actual concerns about it (I haven't felt that concern in a long time aside from mid-conflict plot where I usually sat down in public at my own acknowledged risk).  That is not demeaning the point made or even refuting it, just saying this sounds like a pretty golden place where the wealthy could ease their own mind!

[Hauwke]

You could hire another player to be your guard and it could be interesting. The problem with that is that your new PC guard cant do anything without. eing killed for it.

[Miradus]

You could hire another player to be your guard and it could be interesting. The problem with that is that your new PC guard cant do anything without. eing killed for it.

A guard is going to make me think twice about going for the kill. I don't know if he has a high scan and might see me while I'm snooping around. I also don't know if he's just as knowledgeable about how to escape crimcode as me.

You want the best fucking guard you can hire to protect you from assassins? Hire an assassin.

"Hi, I'm Lord Fancypants. Yes, I have this badass NPC guard following me around, but also look over there ... see that dodgy fuck dressed in rinther gear and wearing all the climbing gear? Yeah. Him. The one with one eye and a dueling scar across his lip. His name is McMurderpants and his job is to stand over there and look for any other dodgy fuck coming in here. Don't even question that goo dripping off his shiv. It's his own secret blend of seven herbs and spices."

[ShaLeah]

I get that we should try and be realistic with our pks. I get that maybe some murders lately were a bit more swift and public than the usual "we can't find soandso's mind and it's been 3weeks we should check their apartment" norm we kind of got used to as more acceptable but if we're going to nitpick on assassins then it's only fair to play devil's advocate and remind people playing nobles that maybe they should be hanging out solely where the rich people can lounge in lavish.  I get it.  Sometimes you wanna slum. Sometimes you wanna walk among the plebs and say I'm here! Bow to me! Entertain me!

What I'm trying to say is that this can, and should, be handled ICly.

Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Pay for that guard
Lead an in character coup for Rennik to hire more guards.
Get the ministry of war to provide escorts to your favored!
Make peace with that murderous highborn!
Pay the templars to murder the criminal factions!

Most of these ooc restrictions people are suggesting by far are ... ooc meta gaming in favor of the pacifists or sore losers.
Some suggestions aren't ridiculous tho. I dig watching the fervor.

[Bebop]

Hiring guards doesn't activate the crimcode.

It's treason to hurt a noble.

Tavern where nobles and templars hang out as well as their aides?  0 soldiers
Gaj where the riff raff goes?  2 - 3 soldiers.

This makes no coded or IG sense.  We're not talking about guards ATM.  There is also an extremely limited playerbase.  We are talking about unrealistic code that would allow someone to attack someone in the Aboretum in plain sight without activating the crim code.

That makes no logical sense.

[Krath]

a) From people who aren't abusive twinks, sure.
b) I think it makes complete sense to be able to sneak past the doorman as long as you look like you belong.

Granted, I'm not sure how that code works or how foolproof it is against sneaky-types, but sneak/hide is pretty powerful stuff that can conveniently breeze past posted guards, narrow hallways, and furniture-less rooms, so I'm not really willing to rely on the good roleplay of others to keep an area safe. Plus, the times I have had a PC who would peek into the Arboretum, it was always empty. That is probably why nobody gets ganked there. Because it is empty. Probably because it is not safe (and because everyone hangs out at the Gaj and the Red's). And around and around we go.

I'm totally fine with everyone hanging out at the Red's or the Gaj, mind you. Congregation is good. I just happen to agree with Bebop on this one - having zero militia protection in the most high-class establishment in the city is ridiculous, and probably due to a simple staff/builder oversight when it was created. The Trader's Inn had soldiers, and the Arboretum is the Traders' replacement.

Dar: say that to the noble that would always hang out in the Traders'. Or any noble or templar PC that is in the Arboretum bar area. But if it bothers you, then just put the important Templar/Noble NPCs inside the Arboretum and the high-up off-duty militia captain NPCs in the bar area. That would make perfect sense.

The other thing is that having the Aboretum guarded is that it increases the potential for RP and it is IG and canon for guards to be there.  So if it's more desirable for people in high society to hang out there it creates more possibility for noble and commoner interaction.  It also allows for player discrimination and a better emphasis on social class  warfare because that won't fit in there like half elves, magickers and other undesirables won't be allowed and thusly won't be afforded the privilege of the protection the muckity mucks have. 

I'm not anti PK.  But assassination should be work.  Following someone, catching them off guard.  You shouldn't be able to walk into super crowded watering holes (especially ones where nobles and Templars hang out) and be able to kill someone without coded consequences or being identified.  Especially not at night when these places would be busiest. In the Gaj maybe you can shiv a bitch.  Less so in Reds.  Definitely not easily in the Arboretum ...and that should be reflected codedly.

In some ways taverns in the rinth are literally more safe than the Arboretum if you have the right connections.  Taverns are a place where plots and interactions that hook players happen.  It's important that codely their relative levels of safety be codedly correct.

Here is my issue. No one has died in the Arboretum. More people have died in the gaj than in the Reds..So I am confused on how the Arboretum is not safe?

Nobles:
1. If you want to be 98% PK Safe, from all undesirables should host people in their estate.
2. If you want to be 75% Safe, go to the Arboretum
3. If you want to be 50% Safe, go to the Reds
4. If you want to live life on the edge, and jump right in without protection, go to the Gaj.

In all of the above scenarios the nobles should have their personal guard with them.

Commoners:
1. If you want to be 98% PK Safe, Marry into a Noble house, and follow the above steps

Assassination should be work, I agree, however, since the code is not robest enough to have a person in silks, quietly, walk up, stab you in the lung and walk away without drawing notice, we have to suffice with Backstab, which makes a huge scene, even though codedly, depending on how it is played out, should not. Backstab is"
Backstab                                                       (Melee Combat)

   This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent, be it an animal or a humanoid. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level."

To me if you successful backstab someone you should not be wanted, you should have the option to be able to successful get away and leave them to succumb to their wounds (and stay unwanted), fatal or not OR continue to engage, draw notice and successfully finish the job(Get wanted) if your critical strike did not.

[tapas]

Aides are rich people fodder. Players choosing that role should know that.  They're eliminated to annoy/thwart/get back at/incapacitate/hurt the noble.

Aides are something of a trap. You think you're going to get to work behind the scenes to organize player plots, broker deals and generally be the fancy aba behind the power.

In practice you're a low-skilled character with few opportunities to train. There's an exceptionally good chance that anyone will kill you including your own noble.

Don't even get me started on all the ways things can go wrong.

[sleepyhead]

I've personally seen a character attacked in the Arboretum. I am not sure if it was a staff-animated NPC or a PC, however.