PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It

[number13]

I'd suggest your characters trust less, scheme more, and act with a fair degree of wariness at all times instead of depending on the false premise of safety because you don't think anyone should have a current-day casus belli to benefit from your character's end.

Least safe places in the game:

Taverns
Apartments

If maximum paranoia is the only way to play, then the best strategy is to find a cave and sit in it, and never interact with another player except to sneak-hide out to PK anyone who might pose a threat.

[Armaddict]

If maximum paranoia is the only way to play, then the best strategy is to find a cave and sit in it, and never interact with another player except to sneak-hide out to PK anyone who might pose a threat.

Or you could seriously consider writing a book about nonsensical hyperbole.  Like wtf is this.

But having a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" implies that the concepts of Love, Loyalty, and Trust, exist. Maybe those concepts should be spelled out a bit more for people in that opening tagline, for those who can't make that leap in logic.

...this is some serious evasion of what the point of these things is.  As I said, arguing whether it is or isn't just a tagline is missing the forest for the trees.  You do not make that a tagline as something ignored or a non-present entity.  You do not make that a common slogan of something where it is a non-present entity.  You don't make it a mission statement for something where it is a non-present entity.  You can argue that this phrase is whatever you want it to be, but it is affixed to the game in a way that describes what is in the game.  There is no inferrence anywhere that it is the only thing that exists.  There is no demand that it be the only thing that exists.

But it does describe things the expect in the world.  Not because you -can't- expect whatever three terms you decided on.  But because you -can expect these things- in the world around you.

I have no idea how this has gotten so twisted to where this is the approach of discussion because someone brought it up to point out that murder happens.  This is some serious weird shit.

[Inky]

If maximum paranoia is the only way to play, then the best strategy is to find a cave and sit in it, and never interact with another player except to sneak-hide out to PK anyone who might pose a threat.

Or you could seriously consider writing a book about nonsensical hyperbole.  Like wtf is this.

I can safely say this is how I felt like playing the game after some of my shittier deaths.

[Armaddict]

I can safely say this is how I felt like playing the game after some of my shittier deaths.

Then do so, if that's how you feel like playing the game, as long as it fits the role you create -for- the game.  But insinuating that this is the way the game must be played to fit into the game world because you're afeared of how you might die is seriously, again, a weird jump.  I don't think the majority of players would enjoy playing that game, which is why they don't play it that way, but they still play very aware of the fact that their character can die suddenly without saying they need to turn absolutely non-interactable.

[Heade]

But having a tagline of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" implies that the concepts of Love, Loyalty, and Trust, exist. Maybe those concepts should be spelled out a bit more for people in that opening tagline, for those who can't make that leap in logic.

...this is some serious evasion of what the point of these things is.  You do not make that a tagline as something ignored or a non-present entity. 

It's not evasive at all, if you read the rest of my post. I'm in no way arguing that "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" shouldn't exist. I'm also not arguing for less PK, as I stated.

But some people ARE arguing that the existence of Love, Trust, and Loyalty shouldn't be a thing, and that's stupid. And someone should point out as much, which is what I'm doing. I have no problem with characters involving themselves in murder, corruption, and betrayal. But, you implied that all characters should, and I think that is faulty and misleading logic, which brings us right back to the fact that MCB directly implies the existence of LTL. And, as a consequence, players should feel comfortable playing a WIDE range of PCs, from naive, trusting, and honest individuals to shady, lying, back-alley cutthroats, based on their own stories and backgrounds.

[Armaddict]

Then I attached intent to your post that wasn't there.  Sorry.

I would, however, ask...if you're playing naive, easy-target-like characters and -their- place in the world...is it truly worth backlashing over if they're actually targeted?

[Heade]

Then I attached intent to your post that wasn't there.  Sorry.

I would, however, ask...if you're playing naive, easy-target-like characters and -their- place in the world...is it truly worth backlashing over if they're actually targeted?

I feel like you ignore who posts what, as, right now, you're arguing against someone who already agrees with you, and has stated as much repeatedly, throughout this thread.

[Majikal]

City-based roles die to pk more often than anything else, guaranteed.
Hunters die to random Raptor #13548 more often than not.
Which one is more satisfying?

I'll take a pk for any reason versus my pc ending in storage from boredom/age or getting whacked by an npc. The game is way more fun when you stop worrying about the end of your pc. I get more pissed when I kick up a shitstorm of excitement for my pc and get whacked by a gith when I know for sure there were a handful of characters in the game that wished they had the satisfaction of cutting me into little pieces themselves.

[Armaddict]

Well.  I think that's a little unfair to say, given the context of the posts just before.  Yours seemed to echo that sentiment, that MCB did not have a place in setting description, or was overemphasized as an arbitrary 3 word tagline alone.

[ShaLeah]

But some people ARE arguing that the existence of Love, Trust, and Loyalty shouldn't be a thing, and that's stupid.

Where? Quote it. Who? I haven't seen a single insinuation that love trust or loyalty shouldn't be in the world much less an outright statement they shouldn't be.  On the contrary it feels like the pro-alternative-to-pk faction is vying heavily that pk should be highly restricted and that furthermore it's NOT an intricate part of the game.

I'm not worried about staff restricting PK any more than they already do, oddly, so I'm not entirely sure why some are persisting in painting this a different color.  It's red. Like blood.  Like the sands.  That shit ain't going nowhere.

[Vex]

i don't know where the fallacy that pk requires paperwork came from, but unless you're a sponsored role and you're already writing in reports, filing reports for a pk is not and has not ever been a requirement. it's NICE and appreciated when you do, but you do not have to.

A staff member sends:
     "Hello, any time you kill another player, staff would like to see a character report that details how and why it went down.  As you have killed 3 players this week, will be looking forward to these details."

If you kill a pc, staff want a report, ie, paperwork.

At the time, I thought it a waste of time, but after seeing some of the opinions here, I do see the need for them. Relevant, as of a week or so ago.

I disagree with that almost entirely. You are an experienced player, you know just how to play safely and survive. Not all do, and I can almost guarantee that you do not put yourself into ultimately fatal positions in the game world itself. Explore the places that are known for their dangers and such (the Grey Forest, Mantis Valley, etc.). In NO way is this game easy and it isn't PvP alone that is making players leave but I do believe it is a part of it when it is a PK without any quality or reason for it. If you genuinely want to play a game where PvP is the main focus? I do not suggest Armageddon. PK is a small part of it in a sandbox such as this, and it has its dangers and intrigue but I will say that ultimately PK should be an option out of many. I find anyone who goes about with the idea of PK in mind (hiring assassins or twinking themselves to that level) is highly unoriginal and far from entertaining.

Haha, you have no idea, who you're even talking to. Sit down, please.

Truth is, in game, on Zalanthas? I don't need to practice restraint. My character can kill for any reason... even if she's just bored. Murder is normal there. Believe me when I tell you that that consideration I used to give will no longer be part of my play when I start playing again. 

Well said, imo.

it's the theme of the game, love it or leave it.

You'll be playing alone sooner rather than later, with that attitude.

I think, he'll be just fine.

The game is at it's very best, when you're surrounded by enemies and it's kill or be killed. There are some people who want to play house, or live in a bubble, this much is obvious, but there are at least just as many, like I, and presumably like him, who clearly enjoy the game the most, when it's at it's most visceral and everyone is all in, until the bitter end.

We'll continue to be around, and be having a good time, with no regrets, as will all of the like-minded players, who accept the nature of the game for what it is.

Be it meticulous murder plot, or senseless ride by killing, death is the last fear and consequence, that players have to contend with. I feel, if something needs to be done, it's to preserve what risk and danger we've got left, and look for more to add atop it.

It's too easy, to live forever in wealth and comfort, in a world that is supposed to be desperate and dying.

[Heade]

Well.  I think that's a little unfair to say, given the context of the posts just before.  Yours seemed to echo that sentiment, that MCB did not have a place in setting description, or was overemphasized as an arbitrary 3 word tagline alone.

In the bottom half of the post you only quoted the top portion of, you'll see that I did say that I wasn't arguing for less PK. I just wanted to clarify the tagline debate. That's all. I thought my stance on that was sufficiently clear from earlier posts in this thread, my apologies.

I'm in favor of permadeath and PKing as long as it makes sense for your character. Always have been. It's what brought me to Arm to begin with. I think a permadeath, full PK RPI mud is the height of imaginative RP aside from a tabletop game. It attaches meaning and risk to your actions, giving RP a "soul".

But I'm here for the character interaction. In other time periods of the game, I've felt like that sentiment was shared by a greater percentage of the people I met in game. It's entirely possible that we're experiencing an increase in "action" player archetypes, with a waning of "social" and "explorer" player archetypes, leading to a feeling by some that PK is a problem.

Essentially, I'm trying to relate with both sides of the argument, here. And I think that it's in the rest of the community's interest to do the same.

[seidhr]

A staff member sends:
     "Hello, any time you kill another player, staff would like to see a character report that details how and why it went down.  As you have killed 3 players this week, will be looking forward to these details."

If you kill a pc, staff want a report, ie, paperwork.

At the time, I thought it a waste of time, but after seeing some of the opinions here, I do see the need for them. Relevant, as of a week or so ago.

There's probably about a 50% chance that we receive a player complaint about someone if they PK someone else.  The reports are, as much as anything, a way for the PK'er to head the complaint off at the pass and tell us why it was legitimate so we can resolve the complaint in an informed manner.

The vast majority of players are pretty responsible and do not wantonly kill people for dumb reasons.  I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

[Krath]

I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

*flex*

[seidhr]

I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

*flex*

I LOL'ed.

[ShaLeah]

The vast majority of players are pretty responsible and do not wantonly kill people for dumb reasons.  I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

Read that again, all you who think it's an ooc racket.

[Heade]

The vast majority of players are pretty responsible and do not wantonly kill people for dumb reasons.  I can only think of one guy who is otherwise.

I'm happy to hear this. I've never submitted player complaints for PKs, but considering they're so common, I may change my policy on that, just to make sure players continue to be held accountable.

[seidhr]

Please don't unless you have a legitimate concern about the way it was done.

[Heade]

Please don't unless you have a legitimate concern about the way it was done.

I mean, I don't know why my PCs were killed in 95% of the situations in which they were PKed. If questioning whether the intent of the PK was legit or not is a reasonable concern, then, like the aforementioned reasons to PK themselves, it's easy to have a reasonable suspicion that it wasn't RPed well.

I really think that some of the complaints about this could be dampened by implementing an automatic system that requires an input: Reason for PK? when a player is PKed. Enforce PK reports being turned in with a bit more fervor. Then, whatever staff reviews and closes the PK report could then input the details of that reason. 1 RL year later, players would recieve an automatic email from ArmageddonMUD revealing that reason.

I think it would do a lot, including:

1. Providing closure for players of old PCs, giving them more knowledge of their own story.
2. Providing insight into the motivations of others on an OOC level, helping to build trust in other players and in staff regarding the validity of PKing in general.
3. Reminding players who quit after that PK about Arm in general, potentially spurring them to return, once they understand what led to their PC being killed.

[Lizzie]

I reported myself a couple of times for "PK for no reason." In both instances, it was a new player logging in for the first time with a new character, saw me in the tavern room with them, and immediately started swinging. The combat code had me swing back and the new PC was dead even before the soldiers arrived to whack them. I had no intention of killing anyone, either time. I had no interest in even fighting them, either time. But the "login, kill woman" thing gets kind of messy if your combat skill is high enough to one-shot someone before you can leave the fight (I don't think disengage was a thing at the time).

I think I reported TWO times in my years of playing, for PKing. Both because they were using OOC knowledge to arrange the kills. One was my character's death, one was someone else that I witnessed.

Other than that, I think the only time I reported a PK, was to vent about not having any visible roleplay. I wasn't questioning the death at all, only the scene. There was enough time for them to emote, or say something, or grunt, or really - anything other than just kill lizzie;get pack lizzie before the mantis head. I never expect to see really stellar impressive roleplay when my character is killed because it's an adrenaline moment and the killer's player is probably needing to just get stuff done and get away. So I'm okay with that, and I get it. But toss in a grunt or an emote that you raised your axe in the middle of it, so I know it's not automated, and I'll put it on the list of "cool death scenes."

[ShaLeah]

Shy got attacked while laying on the couch at the Barrel. Just walked in and attacked.  Fled when the soldiers assisted and did it again.  I complained but I figured he was a noob.

Pkill scenes need not be like movie death scenes for me. I'm rarely surprised of my deaths.  I see them coming.  Sometimes I dodge them, sometimes I don't. 

Except the whiran summon drop into  nest of nasty things (which I didn't complain about). I didn't... see... that one coming.   Get it? Cause it was a whiran?

[Rumor]

Interesting thread, over all. I still stand by my initial post as it's how I feel about the gameworld and creatures that live within, but it's eye-opening to see so many people who aren't really interested in participating in one of the features of the games that literally drew me into it.

I will say this, and I believe this in all earnest, it is how you play the game that dictates how you die more times than it doesn't. I'm not saying you can't die to random murders or whatever. But, there's some extreme examples of how to avoid PK and I think there's far less extreme methods of achieving less pk interactions in your character's life without hiding away some where. I played a tailor who was a crime boss for 60+ days played time and face-to-face interacted with people who wanted to kill me very regularly. I intentionally didn't raise combat skills with this character because I wanted to see how involved I could be in life and death situations without determining the outcome personally, but instead see how influence and roleplay would dictate outcomes. What I found, 99.9% of the time, until the time I met with someone who didn't feel this way, was that playing an interesting, useful and contributing character more times than not can keep you alive. If you're annoying, fucking up all the time, causing trouble for others and creating unnecessary tension then you typically get killed. All of these characters deserve a place in the game world, but ultimately you decide how you're created and most of the times how you're killed. It's in your playstyle and choices.

Again, because I feel like someone is going to point out their anecdotal experience, I'm referring to the majority of experiences. Not the 10 times you've been killed randomly and walked away from the game or almost walked away. I'm talking about the hundreds or thousands of characters that were created with a concept in a mind and when those characters died, their player sat at their keyboard and said, "yep."

So I truly hope no changes are made due to the minority of experiences. I hope people continue to fill out pk reports and I hope players who die to other players and feel there was foul play follow up and report those issues. If it comes back that things check out or nothing was amiss, then you only have the options of reflecting on your choices, deciding on if you trust the staff and players you play with and in the end deciding how you want to spend your time. Very interesting thread and concepts discussed. Some strange distractions happening in here, but over all interesting. Thanks Bebop.

[Brokkr]

Best Practice:

• Wish up before the PK, especially premeditated ones.  Context/reasoning is appreciated. Warning: that soldier that is 2 rooms away and could obviously see what you are doing because it can see you just like you can see it may react. Or maybe we will just eat popcorn.
• Send a character report after a PK. Sometimes folks have sent in character reports for literally RL months and months about conflict with another character and their reasoning to lure their enemy into the perfect trap, which they are setting up, and kill them. We know why they did it. Sometimes all the reasoning is literally in the head of the player, with nothing evidenced in game. The more we would need to sleuth to figure out why your character just PK'd, the more it would behoove you to send in a character report about the PK. Note: If you don't, and are going through multiple PKs, expect a send eventually asking you to send in reports.
• If you get PK'd and feel something is off, go ahead and send in a complaint. We don't share the why with you, so there won't be that sort of closure, I am sorry. But we can often nudge the other player in the right direction, whether with a wiffle ball bat or a half-giant sized sledgehammer. Note: this point synergizes really well with the PK'er sending in a character report with their reasoning behind the PK.

[evilcabbage]

there was i think one time where i really felt like a pk was truly undeserved, and it was when tuluk was still open, i was in the legions, we were in the partisan's rest part of the partisan's arena and i was sleeping.

"someone" came in, instakilled me while i was asleep. i sent in a complaint, and i don't know what closure came of that, but i know instead of a "denied" or "resolved" i got a nice check-mark next to my complaint with "approved".

so clearly something was wicked off there. if you suffer a pk like this, in a situation where dozens or even hundreds might see you die? then absolutely, file a complaint, something like that is ridiculous.


but to assume that everyone is being sketchy and pking wantonly and without good reason, and then going to send a player complaint for every single one? you're just going to be disappointed, 999,999 times out of a million.

[Krath]

Rumor's Post has given me the opening to share this...

Let me preface this story with the statement, I will PK your PC if it further my PC's goals, if they have something I want, and will not give it to me, or because zalanthas is a harsh, cruel, unforgiving land where in the end, you cannot really trust anyone...

That being said: I made a PC once...Probably the best stat roll I have ever gotten. Every stat was perfect for that pc. He was a combat based character, and he was extremely OP and maxed after some time. Simple mundane. The only thing is, I decided, he is going to be a pacifist, in the sense I will not PK, during the time I came up with the concept. There were at least six pcs, I had at near death, and let live. Let me tell you, the shit and and things that those characters I let live went on to do, not only made -that- character's pc much more enjoyable, or difficult depending on how you look at it, but they created -Many- problems and story arcs for later pcs of mine and others.

From an OOC perspective it was nice to see how those PCs went on to further the story that is armageddon, even though letting one of them live resulted in the death of that pc, and equally gratifying that they were able to work with and work against future pcs.

Also from an OOC Perspective I found myself thinking, if I had just killed those assholes, character X Y or Z's projects would have been completed .

Summary: You are damned if you do and damned if you dont, so just create a role and do what is IC.