PKing: Let's Talk About the State of It

[Inky]

There is a way to avoid getting killed. Don't play an easy target.

A lot of people here are talking up their pk game right now. But I'm still pretty sure they don't ever target the fifty day dwarf warrior. Or the desert elf that could retaliate with 20+ heramide arrows.

[Shalooonsh]

Solutions, not barbs, people.

You know who I'm looking at.  This thread still has the chance for continued productivity. 

Keep it civil, folks.

[Vex]

A lot of people here are talking up their pk game right now. But I'm still pretty sure they don't ever target the fifty day dwarf warrior. Or the desert elf that could retaliate with 20+ heramide arrows.

You'd be wrong.

It may be difficult to grasp, but some people live for the challenge. You may see that mul warrior, and run back to town. There are people who will see, that same mul warrior, and decide, they're going to take him down, and fuck Lady Borsail for the trouble.

You'd probably live longer for running, but you won't have half as much fun.

[Inky]

Sure that sounds great. Do I believe you? Not really.

And muls are kind of an off case. High risk with high incentive.

Templars? Dwarves? That ranger with maxed o/d?

I'd love it if players threw themselves at these characters more often. So hey, if you're actually putting your ass on the line, I'm all for it.

But the PK's I see are just the easy ones.

[Vox]

But the PK's I see are just the easy ones.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

[Harmless]

I have let this thread evolve for a while before posting

I have been here active since 2007

I have bout 10 PKs in that whole time tops and several indirect PKs/PK assists (cred is average)

I have been PKed maybe 10 times. I have stored a lot more and died to monsters the other times.

I have played >50 characters, stopped counting.

I have had the bloodlust once or twice way back when, and I admit I no longer do. I once leapt at the chance to get kill after kill when I once had a well rounded assassin, got about 5 kills with this character who I admit was rather 2-dimensional. That character worked in a criminal crew and almost every kill were ones my character was asked to do. Every PK generally had at least a solid hour of (h)emotes, thoughts, Way or in person conversation or planning behind them.. but not always visible to the victim.

I have RPed scenes where I directly warned the victim they were treading in dangerous territory and vaguely suggested they would be punished and then I killed their character later.

Every PK i documented in reports, often I wished up but not always, but every PK gets a report after and some had a report beforehand to describe the plot in advance.

I have never received a player complaint for PKing.

I probably never submitted a complaint for being PKed, though I did complain about my very first character (back in like 2004) being PKilled (I honestly had barely skimmed the docs and thought I could trust a city elf I had just met as a half elf, hah). Since then I don't remember being the victim of super shitty PK.

I have instead sent kudos to my killers at times if I thought it was done particularly well

All that said.. I agree with Bebop. As soon as the chance to get a kill is available it seems people leap at it. Before I learned my lesson, when I played my one successful assassin, there might only be hours from the time the notion of a PK even was made to its execution, even if the target was rather important or well connected, which now feels very rushed to me in hindsight.

I remember feeling kind of sad and disappointed when I learned my then boss had killed a whore she had hired within 1 or 2 RL days of hire and just dumped her body on the pile... not much of a plot there. It didn't dawn on me right away but I soon learned the joy of a little more restraint.

In general the act of PK is not fair and obviously the idea is stack the odds in your favor. It is very very hard to avoid being killed if someone with the means has set their mind to it -- the only time I seem impervious to being PKed is when I play elves. I once survived 5 PK attempts from the same attacker with the same elf and later grew bored and stored. The key was good agility, defense, and parry skills, and cures.

My point is that I have been through both sides, I have been assassins, thugs, aides and mages, and PK has dotted the experience throughout, and regardless of what shit anyone in this game may have to say about me, I still feel like the game is bloodthirsty and that people could stand to think a bit more creatively, especially with killing soft targets off such as aides. I am entitled to my opinion and it is only as valid as any other poster here. I used to be different, and though I understand the bloodlust, I no longer have it. It doesn't interest me to kill senselessly, but I don't mind if I stumble into being PKed either.

Now, for specific points

1. Poison is OP and I agree with nerfs to it. I have yet to branch brew since the changes but based on current supply and demand, I do not agree with any nerfs to it.

2. Delay management and one hit kill tactics have been the norm for ages. Stealth has been the dominant technique for ages. It used to be that powerful stealth killers were very very hard to train without metagame twinking. More and more they are easier to train; particularly certain combinations of key skills now do come in easy class packages without painful branching efforts (though arguably at a cost of lower caps, etc). People are learning the game and as staff have said the power balance shifts. It will shift eventually back to making stealth kills require more patience and then people will again complain that it is too hard to be an antagonist... pendulum effects. I don't worry over it but something that controls the poison economy primarily with the brew changes we are trying to learn is a good idea.

3. I have raged over BS like public tavern kills by fresh out of chargen PCs. I do feel squishy PCs should be viable and reducing silly gank kills which really feel more like code abuse should be a priority for staff. I generally agree with most of Delirium/Shaleah/Bebop's points.

4. I have never enjoyed seeing or hearing about a PK that I didn't feel had good reason. Sometimes I had no idea what the reason was... more often than not, the reason seemed very flimsy to me or there were serious logical flaws to it. I still don't send complaints, but I do hope that all PKers do submit reports (it isn't bad to do that, at all, so to whine about submitting a brief report is to basically disrespect an RPI environment). In other words, without the 360 view that staff get, I am not in much of a position to criticize other people's PK habits, but I have many times wondered if the rules and principles I tried to keep to are being enforced.

5. Finally there is absolutely a place for love and companionship in Zalanthas. To those in this thread who made solid points about how companionship in the face of danger makes perfect sense, thank you.

[Harmless]

But the PK's I see are just the easy ones.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Neither of you are the player who I know killed a 50+ day former byn sergeant, and I dunno what your experience is, but this kind of e peen comparison is silly and doesn't belong in this thread, because the player I know that did kill that 50+ day former byn sergeant in a public street of allanak while bodyguards were with him, did it alone, and that player never even posted in this thread

And he did it entirely due to peraine and bloodburn

[Inky]

I'm actually pretty sure I know about that myself. Good on the player for pulling the big win.

But that was still years ago.

[Lutagar]

poisons are the only way viable for mundanes to kill much more dangerous pcs (maxxed warriors, 'gicks, certain sorc guilds)

if they get nerfed then you'll end up with a situation where certain privileged classes/long lived pcs are literally invincible

[Feco]

I want to reiterate that I do not think there is a problem with the state of PK.  That said, there are PCs that are going to experience PK opportunities/risks more often than others, and I do think we players should be more careful in crafting our PCs such that we avoid turning into kill-happy psychopaths.  If you carefully craft a PC, you can still participate in PvP combat in meaningful ways, but have no character-driven reason to try and commit constant slaughter.

Make a highwayman instead of a slaughter-happy-murder-raider.  Make a torturer templar instead of a beheader.  Make a leg-breaking crime-boss instead of the "secret at all costs" manipulator.  Don't be afraid to make the psychopaths here and there, just don't make it a trend in every PC you make.

Highwaymen, torturerers, and leg-breakers are still gonna have to kill a fool here and there.  But, they aren't gonna have to heramide and gut every grebber, behead every thief, or backstab every single person that sees their mdesc.

Also, I've shown or seen others show restraint when it comes to PK, but I'm not a fan of plot armor.  I don't want PCs to have absolute protection because their death might be "pointless," or people to avoid murder attempts strictly in service of "The Plot."

Seemingly pointless deaths are part of the setting.  By pointless I don't actually mean "pointless."  PKs still need to occur for character-driven reasons, and not as a result of OOC griefing -- I just don't think all PCs deserve an explanation.

Restraint is best used when all options are "equal," in a sense.  When killing provides no serious extra benefit other than a *ding*.

Where restraint should be more common is in the formulation of schemes.  Not every turn necessitates death, and goals that don't involved killing everyone can be a lot more fun.  A revenge plot that involves harassment, embarrassment, and financial ruin can be a blast if it lasts forever.  However, a murder plot that gets stretched out for the sake of length is contrived, and it definitely feels like it, at least to me.

If I plan to kill some people, and I find them knocked out in an alley, it's just serendipity, and the murder plot gets to end easy-peasy.  It's not cheap.  It's what happens when you get tangled up in murder -- someone is probably gonna die, and   it's probably not going to be rewarding.  But... no shit.  Of course it isn't always going to be rewarding or grandiose.  Murder and killing are terrible, nasty, horrifying things that I have no doubt would leave any normal person feeling empty, drained, and unfulfilled.

My thoughts are definitely meandering here but... sometimes you just gotta kill someone.  Bone swordz and all that.

[Harmless]

Poisons don't need a strength/potency nerf, they need a rarity/cost change as has already been suggested, because the constant creep of inflation and increase in supply of these poisons is making it so available that at any point in time there are probably 20 or more active well trained PCs who have multiple high grade poisons on their weaponry, ready to go at all times. I do remember when a single heramide tainted blade was the ultimate sign that I had really come far with a character, but now it feels like heramide gets tossed into the mix even when killing targets that have absolutely no combat or defense skills.

Also, good post Feco, I agree completely with all of that. There is a lot to be said about mixing your murder with a bit of...roleplay. The usual counterargument I see to your points is "but if you aren't brutal and merciless you will be hunted down and killed by a mob of SJWs." I do remember that happening several years ago, but I haven't seen that nearly as much in the past few years either. It seems to be a good time to RP your murderer with restraint.

[lostinspace]

Most poisons are fine, heramide seems to have become much more common, maybe too common but I'm not really sure.

For what it's worth, it's easier to cure now too it seems

[Feco]

I'd be super onboard with poisons not lasting on weapons for any real amount of time.  An IC day, maybe.  Make it a strategic resource.  They're very powerful and a shortened potency would nicely balance them.

[MeTekillot]

That sounds like an even bigger pain in the ass for pulling off an assassination.

[Miradus]

I'd be super onboard with poisons not lasting on weapons for any real amount of time.  An IC day, maybe.  Make it a strategic resource.  They're very powerful and a shortened potency would nicely balance them.

As much as I love walking around for RL weeks on end with my terradin dagger in reserve, I have to agree with this. Poisons are extremely OP. They are a machine gun in a world of bone swords, especially when you run into that Soh who has a quiver full of poisoned arrows that drop you in a shot. Why even BOTHER playing a mage if you want to kill people? Play a Soh and go shoot turaal until you don't miss.

A taint on a blade should last a reasonable amount of time, not until used. And it should disappear if the blade is sheathed or put into a container. You should have to risk putting on the poison and THEN going straight to the kill.

Maybe a mix and match. Some of the weaker poisons last much longer, but the ones that leave you dead or at the mercy of someone else? No. They shouldn't be so prevalent.

I knew poisons were fucked in the current economy when someone offered me twenty leaves of heramide for something. That's the potential to kill TWENTY CHARACTERS, staff. TWENTY.

The fact that 20 people didn't get murdered that same day should demonstrate the absolute restraint on PK that I exhibit.

ETA: For Metekillot, for a planned assassination it's almost no additional effort. You poison your blade before you set out. But for the random griefer who rolls around with a quiver full? Yeah, it's a big pain in the ass to lose that freedom.

[roughneck]

I'd be super onboard with poisons not lasting on weapons for any real amount of time.  An IC day, maybe.  Make it a strategic resource.  They're very powerful and a shortened potency would nicely balance them.

This is actually a good idea. 2 RL hours would be a good time frame, I think.

Makes having the poison skill more valuable as well, so a PC can taint a blade when needed, rather then just having your Miscreant buddy goo up all your blades 'just in case'.

Really great suggestion.

[MeTekillot]

Really feel like you guys don't like one of the few things that can gank some beefed up asshole warrior.

[MeTekillot]

I support having poisons expire like spice and food as a fuck you to successful indie hoarders, I do not support poison expiring ridiculously quickly.

[Is Friday]

Expiring poison ingredients like food and spice is a great suggestion.

Having poisons on a blade/arrow expire when sheathed, contained, or after 2 RL hours is another great suggestion.

I can't count the amount of times that I've rolled into a leader position to find 20-50 applications of SUPER RARE POISON. If I were a jerk I could pretty easily kill everybody for little reason other than pettiness. That doesn't make for good stories.

[Miradus]

Really feel like you guys don't like one of the few things that can gank some beefed up asshole warrior.

I just don't go around trying to gank beefed up asshole warriors simply for being assholes.

Generally those Gaj-sitting beefed up warriors have ZERO impact on the plots I'm in anyway. Whatever reason they have for being an asshole to everyone except the curvy, busty teen straight out of chargen is their own. Most of them seem to be playing an entirely different game than I am anyway.

I'm not ever going to get into a situation where I need to fight one of them. I dislike playing warriors, and the way the current game is set up, there's hardly even any reason for a beefed up warrior to go after ANOTHER beefed up warrior. Joe Jade the uber-warrior is never going to get in an actual fight with Mike the Mighty Byn sergeant. But that's a whole other thread.

I use poison A LOT. I love it. But I'm the first to admit it's freakin' overpowered.

[roughneck]

Really feel like you guys don't like one of the few things that can gank some beefed up asshole warrior.

No, I'm usually the guy poisoning the beefed up asshole warrior. I just know how easy it get a PC to the place where you're riding around with maxxed archery, 30 poisoned arrows in your quiver, a strap sheath full of poisoned knives, as well as a knife belt full, and a spear that can take poison on your back for good measure.

Luckily, already, poisoned arrows seem to have a much lower probability of successfully delivering certain poisons than a stabbing weapon in melee combat does.

[yousuff]

I use poison A LOT. I love it. But I'm the first to admit it's freakin' overpowered.

Just heramide and perraine are a bit broken imo. Both are an instant win weapon. They're meant to be rare but they're as common as obsidian longswords currently.

A quick look at either results in the following:

"an arrow strikes you in the neck/you feel a blade in your back/a thrown dagger hits you on the left big toe"
"You feel ill"
"your vision goes black/you can no longer move"

teleporting behind you, the elven rogue says in mangled anime sirihish:
"nothign personell kid"

There should be either some delay/onset of both of the above considering they're both basically a death sentence a single tick after they strike you. Last time I got hit by heramide I didn't even have time to hit a keystroke before going unconscious, which while I have no qualms with, still feels like it leaves most characters without a chance. I'm all for huge advantages given with preparation and planning, as well as the use of poisons, but the use of an instant killing poison ruins the experience. Either drain your st points at a steady rate (for heramide), or have your joints stiffen up steadily but still very quickly (giving you the chance to at least get 1 or 2 swings with a weapon, or move a room or two with a bit of notice). Heramide as it is, is more potent than any known sedative, judging by its effects anyway. They need a nerf. Not to make them useless, but give them some sort of risk. Even if heramide drained your movement points to zero nearly instantly and dropped all of your combat skills by 50% it'd be better imo.

[Armaddict]

Naw, you guys are talking about a much shorter timeframe than I have in mind.  Poisons can stay on weapons...but just not forever.  RL week or so.

This allows you to 'be prepared', but not be content with 'I did it once, it's forever'.  This allows for people to make a living off of both applying them and supplying them.  This allows for the 'oh shit' moment where you thought it was tainted, but it isn't.

If we went down to as short a timeframe as you guys are talking about...again, I'd want poison in stealth possible.  There is an extreme amount of patience required when you're targeting someone who meets with a lot of people.  You have to wait outside of buildings for a long enough time that you wonder if they logged off, but don't want to check their head to alert them.

2 RL hours is just too short.

[Harmless]

A few hours timeframe would make the act of giving an underling or companion a poisoned blade for self defense impossible unless you knew the day they would be attacked.

Even a RL week would be short compared to infinity.

A nerf such that the full potency only lasts RL hours (giving assassins who use poison an advantage) but a moderate/low potency form lasts for weeks (so your gifted poisoned weapons or ammo still have a use but with less power) and eventually totally wearing/rubbing off would be fine

Qualities of certain weapons that hold onto poison for longer than others would be cool

The age of the applied poison causing it to have a lower and lower chance of sticking and affecting the target but with usual potency is also an option

There are a half dozen or more ways that this could be addressed, up to staff of course. Glad to see I wasn't the only player who has noticed a major uptick in heramide use.

[Miradus]

I don't even know where the heramide bush or tree or whatever it is loads. It seems like there's a small handful of players who DO though and you've got at least one spam-harvesting that sucker like crazy.

Maybe it's time to show some restraint there. And if it's some employer of yours telling you to harvest it like crazy, then they need to show some restraint.