Androgyny

[MeTekillot]

It is motivated by the OOC desire for OOC acceptance.

No it isn't.

I don't know about the rest of your post. My entire idea was just to be allowed to appear androgynous (and to change the way the male/female voice thing works). Everyone else are the ones who got all wordy about the gender spectrum.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

It is motivated by the OOC desire for OOC acceptance.

No it isn't.

I don't know about the rest of your post. My entire idea was just to be allowed to appear androgynous. Everyone else are the ones who got all wordy about the gender spectrum.

Honestly, same. I don't give a fuck about gender this and gender that. That's why I've been talking about staunchly putting one's foot down to prevent further engendering of the game - but being able to present androgynously (ESPECIALLY COVERED IN CLOAKS AND MASKS AND ETC ETC) should be allowed, and code should not auto-out you as "She is wielding..." or "He is wielding..."

[valeria]

[Duplicated in a botched edit attempt.]

[MeTekillot]

It is motivated by the OOC desire for OOC acceptance.

No it isn't.

I don't know about the rest of your post. My entire idea was just to be allowed to appear androgynous. Everyone else are the ones who got all wordy about the gender spectrum.

Honestly, same. I don't give a fuck about gender this and gender that.

I mean, I personally do, but that's here nor there with my idea to be allowed to appear androgynous and to allow people to set their own voice message.

[valeria]

After thinking on where the game generated pronouns (vs player input) occur, it seems they would be based on secondary sexual characteristics, not gender identity at all.  As this is what would be used by a neutral 3rd party in terms of describing someone with no knowledge of the gender identity of that someone.  In that case, male or female, even for highly androgynous, would seem appropriate.  I am not sure "they" would be appropriate for someone without secondary sexual characteristics, as everything I can find essentially relates this back to gender identity.

I think we're on the same page re: it being about secondary sex characteristics, and whether someone would be able to tell.  Where we disagree is here:

"They" is very commonly used for people of unknown or indeterminate gender.  It is not strictly or even solely a gender identity thing (though it can be).

Examples (from the wikipedia singular they grammar article I linked earlier):
The singular antecedent can also be a noun such as person, patient, or student:

    with a noun (e.g. person, student, patient) used generically (e.g. in the sense of any member of that class or a specific member unknown to the speaker or writer)
        "... if the child possesses the nationality or citizenship of another country, they may lose this when they get a British passport." From a British passport application form; quoted by Swan.
        "cognitive dissonance: "a concept in psychology [that] describes the condition in which a person's attitudes conflict with their behaviour".—Macmillan Dictionary of Business and management (1988), as cited by Garner.
        "A starting point would be to give more support to the company secretary. They are, or should be, privy to the confidential deliberations and secrets of the board and the company.— Ronald Severn. "Protecting the Secretary Bird". Financial Times, 6 January 1992; quoted by Garner.

    with representatives of a class previously referred to in the singular
        "I had to decide: Is this person being irrational or is he right? Of course, they were often right."—Robert Burchfield in U.S. News & World Report 11 August 1986, as cited in Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage

    Even when referring to a class of persons of known sex, they is sometimes used.
        "The sizing technology works via an iPhone app. To use it, a woman must take two pictures of themselves while wearing a tight fitted top in front of a mirror." Shane Hickey, "The innovators: the app promising the perfect-fitting bra", The Guardian 10 January 2015, as cited by Mark Liberman on "Language Log"
        "I swear more when I'm talking to a boy, because I'm not afraid of shocking them". From an interview.
        "No mother should be forced to testify against their child".

    They may also be used with antecedents of mixed genders:
        "Let me know if your father or your mother changes their mind." Example given by Huddleston et al.
        "Either the husband or the wife has perjured themself." Here themself might be acceptable to some, themselves seems less acceptable, and himself is unacceptable. Example given by Huddleston et al.
    Even for a definite known person of known sex, they may be used in order to ignore or conceal the sex.
        "I had a friend in Paris, and they had to go to hospital for a month." (definite person, not identified)

    The word themself is also sometimes used when the antecedent is known or believed to be a single person:
        "Someone has apparently locked themself in the office."[acceptability questionable]

***

According to A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (1985):

    "The pronoun they is commonly used as a 3rd person singular pronoun that is neutral between masculine and feminine ... At one time restricted to informal usage. it is now increasingly accepted in formal usage, especially in [American English].

The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language discusses the prescriptivist argument that they is a plural pronoun and that the use of they with a singular "antecedent" therefore violates the rule of agreement between antecedent and pronoun, but takes the view that they, though primarily plural, can also be singular in a secondary extended sense, comparable to the purportedly extended sense of he to include female gender.

Use of singular they is stated to be "particularly common", even "stylistically neutral" with antecedents such as everyone, someone, and no one, but more restricted when referring to common nouns as antecedents, as in

    "The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay."
    "A friend of mine has asked me to go over and help them ..."

***

And examples going on and on.

[Lizzie]

That's all well and good Valeria, but the code doesn't allow for it. When you target your own weapon, people see "his" or "her" weapon. If I were to try and examine your pretty new pair of pants, and mistype and spell pnats by mistake, I will see "HE (or SHE) doesn't have anything like that." Not "they" doesn't have anything like that.

Your character's voice, from afar, will be that of a male or female, not a they. Your character, when wearing a veil but not a hood, will be either a male in a veil or a female in a veil. Not an androgynous person in a veil, or an unknown in a veil, or a human in a veil. If your character is speaking to someone else and it's dark out, your character will be identified as either a male or a female, by voice.

There -are- creatures in the game that are gender-neutral; lacking gender, not merely appearing to lack gender. They are its. If your PC only appears to lack gender, that means s/he has a gender. That gender will be either male or female, and the code identifies him as such.

[Synthesis]

That's all well and good Valeria, but the code doesn't allow for it. When you target your own weapon, people see "his" or "her" weapon. If I were to try and examine your pretty new pair of pants, and mistype and spell pnats by mistake, I will see "HE (or SHE) doesn't have anything like that." Not "they" doesn't have anything like that.

Your character's voice, from afar, will be that of a male or female, not a they. Your character, when wearing a veil but not a hood, will be either a male in a veil or a female in a veil. Not an androgynous person in a veil, or an unknown in a veil, or a human in a veil. If your character is speaking to someone else and it's dark out, your character will be identified as either a male or a female, by voice.

There -are- creatures in the game that are gender-neutral; lacking gender, not merely appearing to lack gender. They are its. If your PC only appears to lack gender, that means s/he has a gender. That gender will be either male or female, and the code identifies him as such.

I believe the suggestion is that all of those code aspects that use binary pronouns would be modified to include a non-specific "they."

But your post does illustrate how complicated that undertaking could be.

[valeria]

Re: Lizzie,
See previous post in which I point out how I know it would require some coding, but it would be a nice feature.  Unless I'm misreading your argument (and you're arguing that people either have masculine or feminine voices), which I would counter with "then why do I sometimes get mistaken for my brother when I answer the phone at my parents' house."

Re: Brokkr,
This other grammar article by Merriam Webster will be my final post in this thread: Merriam Webster on singular they.

tlrd; Singular "they" has been used in English grammar since the 1300s for people of unknown or indeterminate gender, and has been used to describe nonbinary people since at least 1950.

[Edit to remove snark.]

[MeTekillot]

Your character's voice, from afar, will be that of a male or female, not a they.

[Bebop]

I think the reason people counter-react to the suggestion is that the suggestion is phrased in terms of "do this, or you totally suck." .

it is??

I was responding to Bebop, not you.  I didn't care one way or the other, until it got a tad nasty.

This is why the gaming community as a whole is stagnating, man.

"Do this, or you totally suck."

Now we're onto new horizon socially and we're fizzling out on getting ahead of the curve and that saddens me.

"Do this, or you totally suck."

...seeing people get squeamish about this topic is a little bizarre to me and also smacks of some kind of inward revulsion towards folks like myself.

"If you don't agree with me, you totally suck."

I submit that it is possible not to be bigoted -and- not to care one way or the other about gender pronouns.  Personally, I'm not any more revolted by LGBTQ people than I am by humanity in general.  I also still don't care about the pronoun thing.  I offered my opinion as a tactical suggestion:  you aren't going to win friends from the sidelines by casting aspersions on the fence-sitters.

Hey.  Stop it.  Don't do that.  You're underestimating my ability to just say you totally suck if that's what I wanted.  My words are relevant and you overgeneralizing them into the words of a troll is neither nice nor helpful.  My comment wasn't directed at you, I don't even remember your initial post.  I was simply saying this isn't a topic to just be dismissed, it's a conversation worth having.  Okay?  Okay.  Also, I don't like the term gender identity politics - while I know it can get out of hand, I myself have been corrected IRL when I didn't ask someone the pronouns they prefer ... talking about social norms isn't political and referring to it as such is another way to dismiss people out of hand that are trying to shake up our society and how it perceives gender.  I still maintain this is something the gaming community used to happily be ahead of the curve on.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Here I go.

It has been an obvious fact for some time to me that the playerbases of many RPIs are significantly elevated related to average when it comes to densities of people adhering to alternative gender identities. I suspect it is because that here, on Armageddon, we can occupy the identity of whatever we choose effortlessly. For someone who has been forced to battle in real life to find personal comfort and societal acceptance of their identity, the ability to craft up a character and interact with many other people as that character must be an supremely satisfying experience. To those people, I say welcome and gladly accept their time and effort, and I am happy that you have found an outlet that provides creative control. We're all here to tell stories.

However.

I am against this proposal.

The reason I am against this proposal is because its motivation is not driven by in universe factors. It is motivated by the OOC desire for OOC acceptance. There is no major Zalanthan movement for the acceptance of alternative gender identities. I don't think a Zalanthan would even really understand the concept. Remember that on Zalanthas, the genders are entirely equal in every societal way. The concept of gender as spectrum wouldn't make sense to them because even the traditional genders aren't bimodal to them. They occupy a single point. How can you be fluid between two identical states? The idea of gender fluidity and alternative gender identities is too modern. It doesn't seem in place with an archaic, alien society on Zalanthas. Accounting for this stuff ICly would likely do quite a bit of damage to the ability for people to immerse themselves when it comes across as a jarringly out-of-place modern agenda slapped down like a spaceship in the middle of an alien planet.

And that's precisely what I feel like it is. It is an OOC agenda that people are arguing that should be represented ICly because it is an OOC agenda that they agree with. Well, I agree with it too. I think many people OOCly agree that it costs us nothing to accept people's pronouns and can be a source of great comfort and validation for people. OOCly, I will use whatever pronoun you want me to use. But just because I agree and defend this agenda OOCly does not in any way make it appropriate for it to shatteringly appear ICly as well.

I frequently joke on the discord that I'm going to start playing a conservation biologist ICly (based on my RL career). The crux of this joke is that I'm allowing an OOC philosophy to leak IC into a world where it would make little sense, and come across as jarring for people's immersion. What I am seeing here is people barefacedly arguing that we should be allowed to bring our OOC ideals to where they have IC bearing. I don't agree. I don't think immersion is something we should sacrifice on this altar.

I just think this bolded part.

[MeTekillot]

Can you guys split your weird feelings about gender identity into Roleplaying Discussion? I just want to be a man so feminine that people can't tell whether I'm a man or a woman, here.

[Synthesis]

The suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with anything in-character.

It's entirely about how we symbolically represent what is in-character via the English language.  That is, the sort of people who we would refer to as "non-binary" IRL also exist IC, but the code offers no way to refer to those people in a manner that is IC-consistent and grammatically consistent.

I still don't care one way or the other, but I can't stand bad arguments.

[Bebop]

Coded Reasons - IC Reasons/Story

• A character is androgynous looking
  In a society that views men and women as complete equals some may not feel the need to bother as either
  Out of character someone wants to play someone who isn't gender specific
  There's no need to differentiate between the genders in a game where everyone is codedly and socially equal in regards to gender
  If you are playing an androgynous person your coded gender is a dead give away making it impossible to truly surprise people as to what your gender is making it effectively impossible to play a truly androgynous person
  It kind of smacks of OOC nonacceptance, like when a trans person says they're a woman but still gets called a man or a non-binary person saying I'm non-binary and someone going no what what are you REALLY

Technically, the makers of this game could have said - men will be physically stronger it's not realistic for women to be just as strong as men etc.  But did they do that?  No.  They created a space that has retained players like myself and the other woman here that are able to come and play and be treated as equals without facing the same social bullshit we might face IRL.  We are thusly able to politic and climb the social ladder without worrying that playing a female character might garner IC or OOC obstacles.  A person desiring to play someone without a gender should be given that same opportunity regardless of whether it is motivated by IG or OOC preferences.

As a community, gamers have often (including this game) been proudly ahead of social norms.  I love this game because of it's feminism and the staff, to my knowledge, especially with Sanvean on it had that mindset consistently at the forefront of the staffs intent and goals for Zalanthan society.  As far as I'm aware they have continued to make strides towards male and female equality within the game.  Male and female are genders - the intent for gender equality should not end there.  As people without genders are becoming more relevant and commonplace in OOC society it is worth considering getting ahead of that in game - especially if Zalanthas really does represent a society that cares little for your gender as long as you show wit and cunning.  If in our fucked up, still highly sexist world society we are already validating those that refuse to consign themselves to a gender, don't you think that would be old hat in Zalanthas?

Just because it's an OOC argument doesn't make it irrelevant and there are definitely IC reasons to be found.  We make this game, we make this world and one could argue the feminism IG was OOC motivated but that doesn't make it any less relevant or any less a staple of this game that has helped retain certain players for so long.  So creating a "they" option is an absolutely relevant consideration. 

I'm not saying I'll be devastated if it doesn't happen but it's really a matter of what are our principals as players and staff of this game.  So I think how it's handled or summarily dismissed as trivial says a lot about us as a community.

I will say that if I came to this game and was told I had to face IG sexism I'd probably not be still playing this game ten years later.  If someone non-binary comes here and they want to play every single character that way they should have that option.  I've never played a male character.  I can't get into that head space.  Including people with out a gender can do nothing but add dimension to the game.  If someone wants to play a non-binary character and they codedly are consigned a gender I can almost guarantee you that they are going to run into people IG that go by their coded gender or talk about them in regards to their coded gender despite what they're depicting IC.  I've done it myself by accident.  Assessing someone and not realizing their main desc said something otherwise.  Which means that IG it's currently impossible to play a truly coded non-gender conforming character.

Some of my idols are people that were androgynous as hell and constantly kept people guessing.  That guess work should be coded IG.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter I think.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Can you guys split your weird feelings about gender identity into Roleplaying Discussion? I just want to be a man so feminine that people can't tell whether I'm a man or a woman, here.

I don't have weird feelings. In fact, I would agree that if a person is covered head to toe, you may not be able to determine their sex and if it is possible to code that in, it probably should be that way.

The suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with anything in-character.

It's entirely about how we symbolically represent what is in-character via the English language.  That is, the sort of people who we would refer to as "non-binary" IRL also exist IC, but the code offers no way to refer to those people in a manner that is IC-consistent and grammatically consistent.

I still don't care one way or the other, but I can't stand bad arguments.

I don't believe that Namino's argument is a bad one. I think it makes total sense as to why a Zalanthan wouldn't have a desire to become a member of the opposite sex. Why would they? Women are as capable as men and vice versa. Whether we want to admit it or not, IC or IG, men and women have physical differences that makes us male or female. So do animals. Trying to blur the definition just because we have desires to be something else, doesn't make us something else.

By the way, I'm currently playing a male that has many female characteristics. Not saying its not okay. I'm very cool with it. IC or otherwise.

[Synthesis]

You can refer to people as "they" via think, say, shout, psi, etc.  That's the meat and potatoes of treating non-binary characters as such.  Having the code reflect "they" in other coded aspects would be nice, but it says absolutely nothing about what the Staff believe, or what players believe.

If anything, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people are on the side of "that would be a nice change," with varying degrees of enthusiasm.  However, the idea has to compete with lots of "that would be nices," and limited coder resources.

If someone with the know-how decided to take the project on, it wouldn't bother me.  If nobody wants to, my assumption is that they have other things that they'd rather be doing, not that they're giving LGBTQ players the finger.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

You can refer to people as "they" via think, say, shout, psi, etc.  That's the meat and potatoes of treating non-binary characters as such.  Having the code reflect "they" in other coded aspects would be nice, but it says absolutely nothing about what the Staff believe, or what players believe.

If anything, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people are on the side of "that would be a nice change," with varying degrees of enthusiasm.  However, the idea has to compete with lots of "that would be nices," and limited coder resources.

If someone with the know-how decided to take the project on, it wouldn't bother me.  If nobody wants to, my assumption is that they have other things that they'd rather be doing, not that they're giving LGBTQ players the finger.

Yea. This.

[Synthesis]

Can you guys split your weird feelings about gender identity into Roleplaying Discussion? I just want to be a man so feminine that people can't tell whether I'm a man or a woman, here.

I don't have weird feelings. In fact, I would agree that if a person is covered head to toe, you may not be able to determine their sex and if it is possible to code that in, it probably should be that way.

The suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with anything in-character.

It's entirely about how we symbolically represent what is in-character via the English language.  That is, the sort of people who we would refer to as "non-binary" IRL also exist IC, but the code offers no way to refer to those people in a manner that is IC-consistent and grammatically consistent.

I still don't care one way or the other, but I can't stand bad arguments.

I don't believe that Namino's argument is a bad one. I think it makes total sense as to why a Zalanthan wouldn't have a desire to become a member of the opposite sex. Why would they? Women are as capable as men and vice versa. Whether we want to admit it or not, IC or IG, men and women have physical differences that makes us male or female. So do animals. Trying to blur the definition just because we have desires to be something else, doesn't make us something else.

By the way, I'm currently playing a male that has many female characteristics. Not saying its not okay. I'm very cool with it. IC or otherwise.

Still a bad argument, by way of making assumptions about the reasons why someone may or may not be LGBTQ.  You can be non-binary in a world where gender roles are starkly different, and you can be non-binary in a world where gender roles are equal.  That context doesn't necessarily make a difference.  People don't "choose" to be non-binary because they "want" something.  People "are" non-binary because "that's the way they are."

Now, it's true that characters wouldn't make a big stink about someone being non-binary IC, whereas people IRL often do.  That doesn't mean that non-binary characters don't exist IC.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it's well-established that they do, and they're treated equally (or at least, their gender status is not relevant to how they should be treated).

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Maybe I am not understanding what you mean by this then. Are you saying a person is not born male (penis) or female (vagina)? If there is some physical mutation I totally get what you mean, but otherwise I don't. I thought the argument for this -was- if a person decided to be a male but look and act female. Is that not what Metekillot was saying?

Can you guys split your weird feelings about gender identity into Roleplaying Discussion? I just want to be a man so feminine that people can't tell whether I'm a man or a woman, here.

Edited to add: I really am not trying to be offensive here to anyone. And I'm not stupid or anything, I swear. I teach physics. Maybe I'm just old I am doing my best to understand.

[Synthesis]

Maybe I am not understanding what you mean by this then. Are you saying a person is not born male (penis) or female (vagina)? If there is some physical mutation I totally get what you mean, but otherwise I don't. I thought the argument for this -was- if a person decided to be a male but look and act female. Is that not what Metekillot was saying?

Can you guys split your weird feelings about gender identity into Roleplaying Discussion? I just want to be a man so feminine that people can't tell whether I'm a man or a woman, here.

Edited to add: I really am not trying to be offensive here to anyone. And I'm not stupid or anything, I swear. I teach physics. Maybe I'm just old I am doing my best to understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

[JohnMichaelHenry]

Edited: In light of WithSprinkles suggestion, I'm deleting this post entirely in favor of concentrating on the subject at hand.

[WithSprinkles]

I'm going to skirt most of this debate and focus on other bits, so pardon if I am skipping over things.

People have mentioned voices heard from afar in regards to this and it IS an interesting part to take almost ASIDE from everything while looking at the whole of this. I'd like to hear tonal quality in character voices. If an older male and younger male are speaking, I would like age ranges noted as the extremes come into play, perhaps? When a crowd are talking, or even two people in the next room, wouldn't it be nice to have a clue who is saying what? Or to note a booming half-giant's voice?

This could, presumably, be noted in tone quality when a person applies for a character that is gender neutral to have an 'indeterminate' voice or some other synonym applied. Or they may wish to have a male or female one. These vocal tones should NOT be randomly opt in unless there were a skill to disguise your tone, in my opinion. The idea is already being kicked around a little in this thread and may not be pursued by staff, but it seems nice. It MAY even work toward giving us ALL feature concealment options or move toward that.

Completely on topic, I'm going to be one of the last people to tell anyone not to express how they feel on either side of a debate. This matters to folks that play the game. We may not be able to offer what is being asked for now or in the future, but how about we brainstorm about the above suggestion and other things that might work? If one path seems blocked, seek an alternate and compromise.

[Harmless]

we don't do a lot of communication by shouting and there isn't that much communication in dark rooms and in those instances a voice could probably be applied to the given sex of a character -- leave it at that.

Why? Voice non-conformity does happen, but it is rare, even in the experienced transgender community. Trans people that do pull off a fully masculine voice (if born female sex) have either had surgery, years of specific training, or both, all of which wouldn't really be possible in zalanthas.

However, if we want to be biologically exact, maybe male and female dwarves just can't be differentiated by gender via voice alone. But..that's a specific subniche and sub-situation to code. I'd call voice differentiation low priority. I'd like there to be a coded sex and a coded gender expression. When you see someone talking in front of you, you don't really regard them by their voice -- you do by their appearance. We've all met men with high voices and women with low voices, but if the visual expression is male or female, we will refer to them as that. It kind of overrides the voice. Moreover, voice quality can easily be added to the say/talk/tell commands and gives us more style options anyway...people constantly change their voice quality on the fly. You can't really change your facial structure, presence of facial hair, musculature, build/body type on the fly...it's pretty fixed.

What we are discussing is the visual appearance of a character fitting the pronoun used, really. Androgny for voices is a separate topic with separate parameters...I just think it deserves its own separate discussion and will be mired with its own problems.

responses:

Synth correctly says we can manually type they/them/their, but guess what? the person on the receiving end of those hand-typed pronouns won't see you/your, and it will be jarring to immersion. That is a problem.

Sleepyhead's long case on page 2 of this thread actually only does one thing, firmly: it absolutely demonstrates the advantage of having they/them/their be coded, as has been outlined. The reason? It would totally negate the reason for an OOC question in the first place. The character is gender ambiguous -- it's in the code. How your character reacts is one thing, but given there was no code supporting the ambiguity, the scene had to be interrupted by an OOC question that was out of place.


Again:

Let's just code something that has existed for at LEAST a decade if not longer in the culture. I can recall seeing extremely androgynous males and females since I first started playing. I see it...all the time. It may as well get the coded support that the playerbase clearly craves. By coding the support it will PREVENT awkward debates, not induce them.

[only_plays_tribals]

All I'm adding is I love the idea of setting your own voice sdsec in chargen.

A shrill, warbling soprano voice shouts from the north, "Splendid!"

The bulky hairy man has arrived from the north, acting Faleish.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

All I'm adding is I love the idea of setting your own voice sdsec in chargen.

A shrill, warbling soprano voice shouts from the north, "Splendid!"

The bulky hairy man has arrived from the north, acting Faleish.

I like this idea. As long as it could be changed later.

Edited to add: lol, just realized this is the same thing Metekillot asked for in the OP.