Androgyny

[MeTekillot]

Mostly because I'm on that gay shit, but it's also documented in the Quickstart.

Third pronoun of "they".

And also change the voices you hear from listen and shout to be something people set themselves in chargen and in description changes, 2-3 short adjectives max a-la sdescs.

[Brytta Léofa]

If you use "they" as a singular pronoun I swear to krath I will constantly refer to you as multiple people.

Do Amos want to go hunting with me?

[MeTekillot]

Androgyny adds mystery and lets people be a little gayer without even having to do it on purpose. Come on, man.

[Brokkr]

Androgynous doesn't relate to sexuality at all, merely appearance.  Using it for a hermaphrodite isn't appropriate anymore either, where an argument can be had for using "them", but again that doesn't have anything to do with sexual identity, only gender identity.

It is annoying when folks don't mention hermaphroditism in their character apps, only starting to RP it once in the game.

[Bebop]

I'm on board with a they pronoun.  I'd love to see more androgyny in game.

[Lizzie]

Using a plural pronoun to talk about a singular person is just - not a suitable workaround. I don't think there even should be a workaround. David Bowie was androgynous - he was a he. Many women are androgynous, but each is a she. If you are truly of no gender at all, then you are an it, not a he, nor a she. If you are possessed of both genders, then I agree we need to come up with some pronoun that fits. But "they" doesn't fit.

It's jarring every time I see it, even out of the game. I'm all for gender equality, and gender neutrality, gender identity, gender non-identity. But the pronouns need to fit. Come up with one and I'll embrace it. Til then, at least in the game, I'll use either he, she, or it, however my character perceives the person.

In real life, I use the person's name, and avoid a pronoun at all because "they" just sounds silly and wrong. Ze and hir suit me just fine to substitute "he/she" and "him/her" but so far I haven't ever actually heard any gender-neutral/ambiguous person use these pronouns, however common it might presumably be. Maybe it just never caught on in the USA?

[sleepyhead]

Even as a genderqueer person who gladly respects they/them pronouns when others ask me to use them, please let's just not go down this path in the game because there is no going back. I'm afraid it will lead to more drama than it is worth.

[Brokkr]

And they have nothing to do with androgyny.

[sleepyhead]

And they have nothing to do with androgyny.

Well, they could if a PC's gender is difficult to determine at a glance because of androgyny. And people do sometimes use 'they' pronouns in their mdesc to represent that the gender is hard to discern. (And that's perfectly fine with me. The singular "they" pronoun has been around and accepted for ages.)

But I don't want the game to officially work gender neutral pronouns into chargen because I don't want Arm to get wrapped up in gender identity politics. I'm nervous about even having this discussion right now.

[Lizzie]

Brokkr, I believe the crux of the situation isn't whether someone is actually androgynous. It's how people "should" refer to someone whose gender is not known to them, in the game. And, whether or not players "should" play characters whose genders are intentionally obscured - not by wearing a cloak and hood, but rather, by their own character description and emoting.

When you meet Bel, the green-eyed human
and Bel's mdesc doesn't refer to him/her/his/hers.

and Bel's player wants people to not be able to tell if Bel is a he or a she.

What is acceptable? It happens frequently enough that people actually have opinions on the matter, though I don't think it's really all "that" common.

Should Bel's player be allowed to play a "gender-unknown" character, AND should players who interact with Bel be expected to comply?

I feel that since we have to pick either male or female in chargen, that we should accept that our characters exhibit *something* about them that reveals them as such, and RP accordingly.

Other people disagree, and some people agree.

[Cabooze]

I feel like gender-identity politics has no place inside Armageddon. Perhaps as external conversation on the GDB, but as soon as it becomes a facet of the game, then many unsolvable issues will arise that are truly much more trouble than they are worth. "He, She, They, It" should be the absolute extent of in-game 'gender'. Anything beyond that not only would destroy my immersion but make me lose all interest in trying to play something where one needs to be extremely cautious with their word-use for fear of OOC repercussion. I feel as soon as one's androgynous status becomes a matter of a third gender, it should be explicitly detailed and included in the character's application.

[sleepyhead]

I think it'd be great to see someone explore a third gender role, which is something that has existed in many RL cultures throughout history, in their PC-created tribe. I don't want to force it into existing cultures or create OOC expectations to behave a certain way. Having seen how eggshell-walky gender politics can get, I don't want that brought into my fantasy game, especially when people are still arguing so vehemently about how best to be courteous about such things IRL.

[valeria]

As someone who is nonbinary agender/femme and sometimes goes by they/them, I'm going to point ya'll over here for the history of singular they as a totally normal English language thing.

Wikipedia

I'm also going to mention that people unconsciously use 'they' to refer to a person whose gender they can't read or that is indeterminate all the time, and this only becomes an issue when someone either benignly doesn't know what they're talking about, or is consciously or unconsciously transphobic.

For me, it isn't an identity politics issue.  It's wanting to be able to play characters who are like me (like pretty much 99% of the rest of you are able to do without it being an issue).

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

I sincerely think "they" rolls off the tongue better than "it" for genderless, intersex, or androgynous characters. I also think it /should/ be chooseable at chargen, rather than requiring a special request. HOWEVER.

I also think I get enough shit for my gender identity in the real life, and I come to Arma to avoid gender politics, so it should stick to that - a chargen option and a way of referring to someone in game, but not a single step more.

It's also why I haven't made any trans chars over any of my playtimes - I just don't want to deal with that shit in game, thanks, I come here to /escape/ that.

In short, they/it/whatever should be a third option on chargen, but if a single step further is taken (beginning to make trans chars or intersex chars or chars that judge other chars excessively for their gender) that should be stamped down hard.

I believe a they/it option for androgynous chars is a good thing. I also think it's fine if that's not wholly accepted /in world/ (e.g. "Not really sure if they're a guy or a girl, I guess. Weird look to 'em.").

I also accept on an OOC level that it walks a dangerous wire, though. What if people start living out their transphobic fantasies by being excessively harsh on 'they' chars, in ways that are subtle and insidious, and that stirs up a whole shitpot?

Even if genderless chars stay request only though, 'they' is MILES more appealing, palatable, and good than 'it'. MILES better and easier to read and just... good.

Anything other than 'they' is just bullshit nonsense though. No xe/xir, no helicopters, whatever the fuck. So yeah. Options:

1) Swap the genderless special-app option to 'they' instead of 'it'.
2) Make 'they' choosable on chargen anyway.

I would love for this to be a topic utterly free of identity politics, but too many shitheads exist in the world, and if this is done and made right in Zalanthas, it should be done with a heavy firm boot, and absolutely no room for shifting.

[sleepyhead]

I sincerely think "they" rolls off the tongue better than "it" for genderless, intersex, or androgynous characters. I also think it /should/ be chooseable at chargen, rather than requiring a special request. HOWEVER.

I also think I get enough shit for my gender identity in the real life, and I come to Arma to avoid gender politics, so it should stick to that - a chargen option and a way of referring to someone in game, but not a single step more.

It's also why I haven't made any trans chars over any of my playtimes - I just don't want to deal with that shit in game, thanks, I come here to /escape/ that.

In short, they/it/whatever should be a third option on chargen, but if a single step further is taken (beginning to make trans chars or intersex chars or chars that judge other chars excessively for their gender) that should be stamped down hard.

I believe a they/it option for androgynous chars is a good thing. I also think it's fine if that's not wholly accepted /in world/ (e.g. "Not really sure if they're a guy or a girl, I guess. Weird look to 'em.").

I also accept on an OOC level that it walks a dangerous wire, though. What if people start living out their transphobic fantasies by being excessively harsh on 'they' chars, in ways that are subtle and insidious, and that stirs up a whole shitpot?

Even if genderless chars stay request only though, 'they' is MILES more appealing, palatable, and good than 'it'. MILES better and easier to read and just... good.

Anything other than 'they' is just bullshit nonsense though. No xe/xir, no helicopters, whatever the fuck. So yeah. Options:

1) Swap the genderless special-app option to 'they' instead of 'it'.
2) Make 'they' choosable on chargen anyway.

I would love for this to be a topic utterly free of identity politics, but too many shitheads exist in the world, and if this is done and made right in Zalanthas, it should be done with a heavy firm boot, and absolutely no room for shifting.

Yeah, that's what I mean. I don't object to 'they,' or non-binary people, nor do I think such things are necessarily entrenched in identity politics. But unfortunately, I think if we're perceived as dipping a toe into that pool, we'd drown FAST. And I'm worried it's going to hurt non-gender-conforming players like myself more than it will help.

[Brokkr]

We aren't going to allow choosing pronouns in chargen.  This should be an edge case.

If you want to play a gender opposite to your character's actual sex, and use that pronoun, we are fine with you taking the other sex in chargen as long as it's noted in your bio.

If you want to play neutral sex (which has defined pronouns its/it/it/itself/its) put in a role request.  We would need to determine they character should be referred to that way, and manually change their sex to neuter.

[LauraMars]

They/them are the "proper" pronouns to use when referring to non-binary people, or people whose gender you are uncertain of, etc. It/its are not correct, right now. Language is always evolving, so who can say what the future holds, but at this point in history (and for quite some time now) they/them is the better choice, from a language perspective, than it and its derivatives.

I use 'it' when referring to robots and space bugs, tbh. 

[Harmless]

they/them is fine and should be included.

[Brokkr]

They/them are the "proper" pronouns to use when referring to non-binary people, or people whose gender you are uncertain of, etc. It/its are not correct, right now. Language is always evolving, so who can say what the future holds, but at this point in history (and for quite some time now) they/them is the better choice, from a language perspective, than it and its derivatives.

I use 'it' when referring to robots and space bugs, tbh.

And it doesn't matter.  First, because a Templar tells you what your gender orientation is, not the other way around (or what theirs is, or their erdlu's, heh).  Second, because our current support is for gender neutral, not in the sense of gender non-binary, but in the sense of houses, signet rings, muls, slaves and other stuff folks own (we didn't ever set out to have a set of gender neutral pronouns, we are simply piggybacking on what is already available for other purposes).

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

They/them are the "proper" pronouns to use when referring to non-binary people, or people whose gender you are uncertain of, etc. It/its are not correct, right now. Language is always evolving, so who can say what the future holds, but at this point in history (and for quite some time now) they/them is the better choice, from a language perspective, than it and its derivatives.

I use 'it' when referring to robots and space bugs, tbh.

And it doesn't matter.  First, because a Templar tells you what your gender orientation is, not the other way around (or what theirs is, or their erdlu's, heh).  Second, because our current support is for gender neutral, not in the sense of gender non-binary, but in the sense of houses, signet rings, muls, slaves and other stuff folks own (we didn't ever set out to have a set of gender neutral pronouns, we are simply piggybacking on what is already available for other purposes).

I've never seen a single instance of a templar forcing a separate gender identity onto someone, and honestly that would be a horrific happenstance on an OOC level.

Separately, with Zalanthas being a world where men and women are equal and there is no outright masculine or feminine presentation, I don't see how one that doesn't fit either is wrong. If anything, neutral presentation is the most Zalanthan thing possible.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

To clarify: Templars dehumanising folk by calling them 'it' is fine IMHO. I have had characters go through that and while it made me feel slightly OOC icky, it fit the setting and was fine due to the character it happened to. But 'it' should not be the default. Nor the only possible option. Templars applying she to he and he to she is also way out of line on an OOC level IMHO.

[valeria]

Right, we get that the code doesn't support it now, and "it" is the only work around.  However, what I'm saying (and what I think Laura is saying) is that a gender-neutral option would be a nice feature, though.  It's why I've idea'd it in the game and why I'm posting in favor of it here. 

Some people are born looking androgynous.  For others, well, it's a lot easier to alter your secondary sex characteristics than you might think, especially if you've never looked into it because you're perfectly comfortable gendering yourself consistent with your secondary sex characteristics.  Meanwhile, it would be a nice feature because nonbinary people exist, and have existed for a long time, and even play this game.  It would be a more welcoming, more inclusive feature.  As opposed to the "it" workaround, because you don't refer to a nonbinary or androgynous person as "it" unless you're trying to be deliberately dehumanizing.

[LauraMars]

Right, we get that the code doesn't support it now, and "it" is the only work around.  However, what I'm saying (and what I think Laura is saying) is that a gender-neutral option would be a nice feature, though.  It's why I've idea'd it in the game and why I'm posting in favor of it here. 

Some people are born looking androgynous.  For others, well, it's a lot easier to alter your secondary sex characteristics than you might think, especially if you've never looked into it because you're perfectly comfortable gendering yourself consistent with your secondary sex characteristics.  Meanwhile, it would be a nice feature because nonbinary people exist, and have existed for a long time, and even play this game.  It would be a more welcoming, more inclusive feature.  As opposed to the "it" workaround, because you don't refer to a nonbinary or androgynous person as "it" unless you're trying to be deliberately dehumanizing.

Yep. They/them is generally what other games use for nonbinary gender situations. Including other muds. I've argued for it (and gotten it) at my own job. It just isn't in the code for this game, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be.

[Bebop]

When you be living in Minneapolis and then you get on the interwebz and see people saying gender neutral pronouns aren't relevant.

This is why the gaming community as a whole is stagnating, man.  Like all of it, console, PC, whatever now that it's become so main stream.  Gamers were so ahead of their time for same sex acceptance, even this game was really strong about feminism and strong female characters and leaders.  Now we're onto new horizon socially and we're fizzling out on getting ahead of the curve and that saddens me.

If gamers aren't going to blaze a path for social acceptance of the LGBTQ community anymore once we hit the topic of androgyny kinda saddens me, yo.  Kinda saddens me.  A discussion on gender pronouns is totally relevant to a game where you have to pick your gender.

C'mon.  What happened to that nerd philosophy to boldy go where no one has gone before (which I will remind you was changed to no one from no man.)  In the spirit of nerdiness this is not a topic that should be shied away from ladys, gents and others.  I am super femme outwardly, but super gender non-binary inwardly as a pansexual woman and seeing people get squeamish about this topic is a little bizarre to me and also smacks of some kind of inward revulsion towards folks like myself.

Inclusion isn't picking sides.  Inclusion is inclusion.

[Synthesis]

Not catering to your particular language grievances isn't exclusion, either.  I think the reason people counter-react to the suggestion is that the suggestion is phrased in terms of "do this, or you totally suck."  That doesn't really convince people to give a shit about your case, and convincing someone to give a shit is what you need to do, because somebody's going to have to do a whooole lot of work to get that done.