Mundane Subclass Feedback

[CodeMaster]

Since the history docs recently got updated, I had a random thought today that it would be cool if some subguilds were tweaked/put on a rotation based on recent events.

One example was the "rebel" subguild which made sense when there was a northlands rebellion.  There could be things like "cataclysm survivor", "southlands refugee", whatever.  More work for staff, and I don't know about the feasibility.

[Boogerbear]

I don't think the game can have too many subclasses/extended subclasses.

Variations on Outdoorsman, Master Trader, and more of what was done with Swordsman/Reaver come to mind.

With the new classes, there's a lot of overlap, and the "abilities" part of subclasses is a really good addition that I think could be expounded upon.

Since so many of the new classes, even heavy merchantile, receive weapons skills to JMan, then maybe the "apprentice" level for subclasses with weapon skills should at least be raised to journeyman, along with other skills.

I put in 30+ days with a legacy merchant/gladiator subguild and very relieved when that char died, especially after having played 30+ days with a legacy merchant/aggressor.  The latter was actually able to hold his own against warriors, while the former went down hard and fast to legacy rangers till the very end.  The difference was night and day.

Or thought could be put toward making the current "normal" subclasses more on-par with the extended subguilds, forming one large group of subclasses that could be tweaked as time goes on.

I like the classes and subclasses, and I don't think staff should be afraid to either make normal subclasses more "powerful," add new ones, or streamline the "special application" process for extended subguilds.  I liked the idea of karma-less players being able to play one of a certain extended subguild every month or so. For instance, you begin with all extended subguilds open, even as a zero karma player, but once you've used that extended subguild, you must wait.  If you *absolutely have to* play the same extended subguild twice in a row in less than a month, assuming you died fast, then that's what the extended subguild special app would be for.

[Dar]

... I like that! Karmaless players having ability to pick a subguild that would normally be karma level, but if they use it up, they cant pick it again for a long time. I love that idea.

[Miradus]

I am against any plan which makes Arm players even more risk adverse than they already are.

[Marauder Moe]

Haven't staff said that subclasses are being re-worked too, now that main classes have been finished?

[Boogerbear]

It seems like a good idea to figure out a way to use mundane subclasses to avoid guild-sniffing of crafters.

For instance, someone pins your character as heavy merchantile at a distance.  Then they come at you with a sentence in Cavilish or Allundean to see if you're the sneaky heavy merchantile class or the Really Squishy one.

This kind of sniffing can be avoiding by picking, say, Linguist or Master Trader, but at the expense of being able to custom craft, which is an unfortunate tradeoff to just avoid being automatically pigeonholed.


Edited to add:

A possible solution might come in the form of subclasses that give: A) Allundean + Mastercrafting + something else, maybe listen or an enhancement to languages/wisdom or some other masking element, and B) Allundean + Mastercrafting + something else, maybe listen or an enhancement to languages/wisdom or some other masking element.

A sneaky subclass that offered Allundean + haggle + hide/sneak would be interesting as well.

I like the idea, in general, of subclasses that help block guildsniffing.

[Vex]

I've had a crafter concept on the burner, but every time I look at it, I realize how utterly vulnerable it'll be. The lack of scan, and listen, in particular, make it seem like a poor choice. I don't mind the custom crafter, or a master crafter sub, being a requirement for custom designs, but it does feel as though, being a heavy crafter, has too many negatives, and is entirely too vulnerable, to even the freshest of rogues swooping in, for an uncontested apartment kill.

I feel as though customer crafter sub, should at least come advanced scan and listen. Not only would it give appeal to classes with a few craft skills, but, it would also provide heavy crafters with some much needed survival skills.

No matter how I look at it, artisan and craftsman both, aren't choosing between "This skill and that skill", but between "Will a GMH hire me, or choose a better chance of surviving", as in my admittedly limited experience, GMH are ONLY interested in custom crafters.

I watched one interview, a while ago now, wherein the house member constantly asked, in different ways, if the applicant, had any "creative" things to show, or if she had her mind on any specific unique designs, and generally, boxed them into admitting, they didn't/couldn't. I thought it was, honestly, an extremely meta and crude way, to handle the situation, and treat the other player.

Advanced scan isn't so great, as to make them immune to being shadowed by professionals, but does mean that every fresh face rogue, can't score easy starting loot, by following them into an apartment and murdering them. Listen, imo, should come STANDARD, for any class, that is most probably going to be city based, at least to advanced as well.

But, if custom crafter remains the mainstay for heavy crafters to do custom crafts, at least include advanced scan and listen. It'll give the sub wider applications, and no doubt, provide heavy craft characters, better survival odds during infancy, but not an unfailing defense against more advanced threats later on.

[Brokkr]

Not really sure how listen is going to increase the odds of surviving?

[Delirium]

If you're a squishy non-combat PC then a House crafter job is a dream come true... you have a guarded compound to sleep in and keep your stuff in! Even if you're not squishy... scan/listen isn't gonna save you from a determined and skilled assassin.

[Bushranger]

There are a lot of subguilds that offer master crafting-skill and custom crafting. Let's say your concept is to be a Salarr bladesmith. Fighter / Master Weaponsmith gets you custom crafting of swords, knives and spears of all types as well as being buff AF. Or lets say you want to be more widespread with your custom crafting because you're going to set up your own independent type shop but still want to be able to fight a bit. Laborer / Custom Crafter will let you defend yourself with all the weapon skills at a nice advanced level along with bash and disarm and kick and hack and parry and shield use - pretty solid combat potential there and you'll also be able to custom craft bandages, arrows, knives, swords, axes, tools, baskets, clay pots, clothing, stonecrafts and recipes! Sure you might not be able to custom craft master level new recipes but you get pretty close with advanced on a whole heck of a lot of different things there while still being quite buff! Remember custom crafting no longer needs you to grind out to master in the skill, you can now custom craft a novice recipe if you have novice skill rank and the custom crafting ability.

You don't need to restrict yourself to the Heavy Mercantile classes and the custom craft subguild. You can also be quite a prolific crafter and becomes insanely rich as a Heavy Mercantile class with a combat subguild and just using recipes other people have custom crafted.

Just about the only thing you cant do is me a master at most crafting skills, custom crafting in all of those skills, and be buff AF. Just like you can't be a Psionicist, Combat Sorcerer and Buff AF combat skills. There are some tradeoffs in a multi-player game.

[Heade]

There are a lot of subguilds that offer master crafting-skill and custom crafting. Let's say your concept is to be a Salarr bladesmith. Fighter / Master Weaponsmith gets you custom crafting of swords, knives and spears of all types as well as being buff AF. Or lets say you want to be more widespread with your custom crafting because you're going to set up your own independent type shop but still want to be able to fight a bit. Laborer / Custom Crafter will let you defend yourself with all the weapon skills at a nice advanced level along with bash and disarm and kick and hack and parry and shield use - pretty solid combat potential there and you'll also be able to custom craft bandages, arrows, knives, swords, axes, tools, baskets, clay pots, clothing, stonecrafts and recipes! Sure you might not be able to custom craft master level new recipes but you get pretty close with advanced on a whole heck of a lot of different things there while still being quite buff! Remember custom crafting no longer needs you to grind out to master in the skill, you can now custom craft a novice recipe if you have novice skill rank and the custom crafting ability.

You don't need to restrict yourself to the Heavy Mercantile classes and the custom craft subguild. You can also be quite a prolific crafter and becomes insanely rich as a Heavy Mercantile class with a combat subguild and just using recipes other people have custom crafted.

Just about the only thing you cant do is me a master at most crafting skills, custom crafting in all of those skills, and be buff AF. Just like you can't be a Psionicist, Combat Sorcerer and Buff AF combat skills. There are some tradeoffs in a multi-player game.

Dude, heavy mercantile classes not getting to mastercraft and still have a subguild isn't a tradeoff. It's a slap in the face.

The answer to a class sucking shouldn't be, "Play another class that's better".

Currently, every single crafting ESG is better than the core mercantile classes in this one regard(master crafting). This idea flies in the face of all the other balance changes to classes/subclasses, where Brokkr directly stated that it was their intent for no ESG to outclass the "best in class" main classes. But, in this way, they do.

I always enjoyed playing the old merchant classes. I probably will never make a heavy mercantile character again as long as this remains the policy. It's unnecessarily punishing the already physically weakest classes in the game by making them choose between an ability that is intrinsic to their class, or a real subclass.

[Vex]

Not really sure how listen is going to increase the odds of surviving?

It is my understanding, stealth detection, and noticing of stealth-based skills, are assisted, by having listen engaged. Am I wrong?

Even if you're not squishy... scan/listen isn't gonna save you from a determined and skilled assassin.

No, but it will help keep you alive in a city, like Allanak, that crawls with newbie rogues and subclass rogues, whilst you develop your crafts (income), and develop your social connections (protection). At which point, it doesn't matter if advanced scan and listen won't work on veteran rogues, who are taking notice of your squishy crafter, because you have the means to pay them off, and (potentially) the social protection, that makes taking you out, less ideal, than getting in on the payoffs, because veteran rogues, don't tend to want to piss off important people/entire city pops, who are getting a cut of said crafters sid.

You don't need to restrict yourself to the Heavy Mercantile classes and the custom craft subguild. You can also be quite a prolific crafter and becomes insanely rich as a Heavy Mercantile class with a combat subguild and just using recipes other people have custom crafted.

Indeed, and this is my preferred solution, to the less than appealing state of heavy mercantile classes. I'll disagree with the non custom crafter option, however. If you're going the route of a heavy crafter, you are, imo, going to want the custom craft option, as you'll be disgustingly rich, regardless.

The difference in VALUE to a clan, or even as a goto independent, is night and day, if you can custom create items on demand. I don't even glance, at the potential for income, when thinking about my possible craft characters, because "CRAZY WOW" is already the baseline income, once established.

I wouldn't even look at a heavy crafter, without custom craft options, for the same reason I wouldn't use a sword on my miscreant, but that, might just be me.

[Lizzie]

My perception of this subclass master/custom thing:

If your intention is to get clanned and become a titled Crafter (with a capital C, not just codedly, but ICly considered as such) then your character is not likely to have much of an interest or time to spend on combat stuff. For that reason, IF you are intending to get your character clanned as a crafter, it's in your character's best interest to give him a heavy crafting class and subclass combination that results in both master craft and custom craft, of the crafting types of things your character is expecting to do in that clan.

So if you want your character to be a good fit for Salarr, then the main class and subclass will be attractive to Salarr: weapons, armor.  If Kadius, then jewelry, clothing, furniture/woodworking.

If you want your character to end up in a specialized clan, then you need to accept that your character needs to specialize. No, he won't be any damned good at knocking out foes in a fight. But he's a CRAFTER. Crafters aren't supposed to care all that much about whether or not they can knock someone out in a fight. They're supposed to care about where they're getting their next length of silk. Or whether or not the cuirass they just made will please the noble who ordered it. Or - he can become influential enough to hire thugs to fight his battles for him.

If you want to just be good at fighting, AND at crafting, then you have to give something up in return. Whether that's master crafting, or custom crafting, or advanced parry, or listen/scan, or hide/sneak - etc.

There seems to be plenty of variety for everyone EXCEPT the people who insist that their non-combat character be good at combat.

[Brokkr]

And magickers that can custom craft.

[Vex]

There seems to be plenty of variety for everyone EXCEPT the people who insist that their non-combat character be good at combat.

I don't think I've seen anyone, expecting to be good at combat with a heavy crafter? I could be wrong, as I have skimmed some, but I think the argument has tended towards, "I want variety", rather than "I want to do it all".

As was said earlier, "play a better class" isn't necessarily the kind of answer that sits well with people. There are a few small things that could be done, without any real upset, to make them equally attractive, as other class/sub crafting combos.

I really think, just some basics, like scan/listen, would make custom crafter attractive enough, to at least appease people unhappy with the general implementation, of custom crafts in the new class system.

[Heade]

If you want to just be good at fighting, AND at crafting, then you have to give something up in return. Whether that's master crafting, or custom crafting, or advanced parry, or listen/scan, or hide/sneak - etc.

You're being a bit obtuse, here. Wanting to have ANY subclass AT ALL isn't just about wanting to be good at fighting and crafting. The fact is, heavy mercantile characters aren't "good" at crafting despite it being their primary class, unless they take a specific subclass that excludes them from doing literally ANYTHING ELSE. ICly, "good" crafters are the ones able to make custom orders.

And how do you justify people who are able to be the best warrior in the game ALSO being able to custom craft jewelry when a heavy mercantile/linguist cannot? It just makes no sense. It's not about merchants being awesomesauce at combat. Even if they got a REAL subguild choice, they wouldn't be that. It's about letting heavy mercantile characters do what they're SUPPOSED to do, while still being allowed to flesh out their concept with a subguild that actually does something, other than simply make them playable as what they ALREADY should be. A primary crafter.

Fuck it. Just let us have legacy merchants again, as they were set up previously, as an option. And see how many people ever pick the heavy mercantile classes Vs. Legacy Merchant. The loss of custom crafting on heavy mercantile classes isn't worth any of the positives they got, because the custom crafting setup completely stymies any sort of character customization and creativity if you want to play a primary crafter.

[Brokkr]

Wait, you want legacy merchants?

Sooooooooooo.....you want us to take away all the crafting skills?

Sorry if you don't understand that comment, but the classes have evolved a lot over the years, and a lot of folks don't have full perspective on that.

I think there are other things that could be done to enhance crafting appeal more broadly than custom crafting for heavy merchants.

[Heade]

Wait, you want legacy merchants?

Sooooooooooo.....you want us to take away all the crafting skills?

What? Legacy merchants had all the crafting skills. Is this a troll post from an admin+?

[Brokkr]

Not in 1996.

[Heade]

Right, because they didn't exist in 1996. That isn't legacy merchants. I'm using your own terminology, here with the term "legacy merchants", referring to merchants before the class changes went into effect. 

Staff used the term when rolling out the class changes. I think it was even you, specifically, that used it. Though I could be wrong on that. In any case, it said "Legacy Merchants" would still be able to MC as per their previous documentation on the matter.

But I'm quite certain you already knew that.

[Brokkr]

Merchants have changed a bit over the years.

They started without crafting skills.

They had crafting skills, and master crafting wasn't a thing.

Eventually master crafting was made into a formal thing.

People still played them.  All along.

[Heade]

Merchants have changed a bit over the years.

They started without crafting skills.

They had crafting skills, and master crafting wasn't a thing.

Eventually master crafting was made into a formal thing.

People still played them.  All along.

I really don't get what you're trying to say with this. Sure, master crafting didn't always exist in the game at all. But it does now, and has for around 15 years. And in that time, it has become part of what people expect from a merchant sort of character.

Just because it didn't exist at all at one time, that doesn't erase the current inequity that exists between the ESGs that have it, and the core mercantile classes that don't, when trying to fit into the CURRENT IC culture, which shifts over time based on what is and isn't available IG.

If mastercrafting suddenly didn't exist at all IG, then what you said would make sense. But it does, and it's important IC, so it's going to be a major consideration for people interested in playing "Merchant" characters. And currently, characters who only took crafting as a secondary ESG get custom crafting, while the core mercantile classes do not, if they want a subguild. With the truly mercantile core classes, if you can custom craft at all, you're playing a cookie cutter set of skills, because you get no subguild choice at all. Currently, a custom crafting heavy mercantile PC is one of the easiest classes in the game to fully guildsniff.

I'd be more in favor of completely separating Custom Crafting from ANY guilds/subguilds at all, and instead tying it to a binary on/off flag. Make it cost 1 karma to turn custom crafting on for a particular PC, and institute an automatic acceptance policy for 0-karma players who burn a spec app to play an otherwise mundane, non-karma PC who wants custom crafting turned on.

Or, just go back to the old system. In either case, the current system is offputting to people who historically enjoyed playing PCs who were primarily crafters/merchants. Generally, the only people I've seen in support of the current system are people who have admitted not really playing merchants much. So they benefit from the fact that the crafting ESGs turn custom crafting on, while not suffering at all from the existing dynamic between heavy mercantile classes and custom crafting.

In the best of cases, we're pushing those people away from the crafting classes they enjoyed to play other things, or shoehorning them into cookie cutter classes. In the worst of cases, we're pushing them away from the game.

[Brokkr]

I thought the point was fairly clear. Tuluk has apparently ruined me forever though.

People have enjoyed merchants all along. It has not, historically over the lifetime of merchants, been necessarily linked to custom crafting.

What has developed is a sense of entitlement, that crafter types should as a matter of course be able to custom craft, simply because for some time period they could. It is much like the questions we got on why new some new combat classes didn't get the skill skinning, because warriors had the skill skinning.  Only, of course, warriors didn't always have the skinning skill.

Lack of custom crafting isn't really the main weakness of the crafting intensive classes, as I see it. At some point this will no doubt be reassessed, whether because we have addressed the main weakness, or simply through change in staff and their viewpoints.

It is important to remember timeframe though. Shifts often occur over years, not months.

[Armaddict]

...are you seriously going to fight this hard against the majority of your feedback-giving playerbase over custom crafting forever?

How long do we have to keep on pointing out that it's not a desirable idea before you start to do the side-to-side nod of your head and say 'Okay, maybe they really enjoy this and want it in their game in more places rather than less'?  Because we can just set up scripts to keep reposting about entitlement and whatnot for that long.

[Heade]

People have enjoyed merchants all along. It has not, historically over the lifetime of merchants, been necessarily linked to custom crafting.

What has developed is a sense of entitlement, that crafter types should as a matter of course be able to custom craft, simply because for some time period they could.

So, you're completely discounting the idea that custom crafting on every single extended subguild related to crafting highlights an inequity with the core crafting classes? You yourself stated that it was the intention of staff to ensure extended subclasses didn't outclass the core classes in "what they're designed to do". Right now, that isn't the case here. GMH's are more likely to hire a warrior with a subclass Master X crafter than they are to hire a core heavy mercantile class without the custom crafter sub. This creates a massive IC percieved "value" disparity between the two, favoring the extended subguilds over the core classes. In NO other circumstance is that the case.

This isn't about entitlement. It's about letting them do what they're designed to do, IC. You wouldn't make such a claim about entitlement if we were talking about taking weapon skills away from a warrior, and requiring a warrior to take a specific subclass, that ONLY gave them weapon skills, in order to get them back. This is really no different. Both of them have become intrinsic to the identity of the class, even if custom crafting didn't exist until 15 years ago.

Lack of custom crafting isn't really the main weakness of the crafting intensive classes, as I see it.

With all due respect, it seems like a lot of people disagree with you. Now, I don't believe in correctness by commitee when it comes to objective truth. But with something as subjective as what people enjoy playing...it's pretty much the gold standard.