kill command: Instant attack or no?

[Lizzie]

Changing the system to address the actions of a few (in this case, possibly even only the one?) seems counter-productive.

If someone is abusing the code, then it needs to be pointed out to that person, and the person needs to be instructed to stop. If they don't stop, they need to be ejected from the game. If they create another character to continue in the same vein, then the player file needs to be ejected, and perhaps so does their IP address.

Why further limit roleplay, due to the actions of a few who choose not to be responsible players?

Attempt to educate the irresponsible. If that doesn't work, remove them. No need for the rest of the playerbase to change how WE play, just because a couple of people choose to be dicks.

[Harmless]

I totally hear what you're saying, but would it actually be that much of a restriction to do any of the things suggested? All of them are already counterbalanced -- for example, a guard can only stop an attacker on a successful skill check, and I already suggested that it be penalized if you don't guard a specific person. Or, if dwarves are 1 karma, they can still be special-apped by anyone. They just can't be rolled straight out of chargen on a fresh account, but anyone who wants to play one can give it a shot. Is that a nerf to dwarves? yes, but is it a restriction to roleplay? nope.

In any case, it is totally up to staff how they choose to run the game, or how they choose to take action to penalize specific players (if that is even possible in the case of griefing), but I am still entitled to my opinion, and I wouldn't mind any of the changes suggested so far.

[valeria]

Changing the system to address the actions of a few (in this case, possibly even only the one?) seems counter-productive.

I strongly agree with this sentiment.  I also don't necessarily thing it's bad to discuss things like approach combat or approach movement, despite what triggers them.

Rather than a combat approach, I would rather have it as part of your sdesc, like we have "naked" as part of your sdesc now.  "The armed tall, muscular man enters from the north."  I'd think you would notice that someone is walking in with swords in their hands.  If nothing else, other people would probably turn to look.  It would probably also be easier to codedly implement than a combat approach and all the necessary exceptions.

People with slight of hand could silently draw their concealed weapon after they've entered a room.  Otherwise, you will either be seen entering with a weapon, or drawing your weapon, which should put people on notice that you might be up to no good.  Or might earn you a "hey, Amos, why are you carrying that training sword out of the training hall."

It might also help the issue of people from walking around with training weapons for days until a soldier points it out to them.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

'Armed' in the SDesc has many problems. Not only is it bulky, but it invalidates 'ready' commands from sleight of hand, etc.

How about we just accept these events as outliers, punish them accordingly, and move the fuck on?

(Dwarves should be 1 Karma, though.)

[Armaddict]

No, it is a knee jerk reaction.

Calling it out as such is not comparable to school shooting negligence, -that- is a true logical fallacy to assert that it is.

Don't say stupid shit.

Some people died to a dwarf and instantly cried out about how unfair it was because they were sitting there and not expecting it.  This is not new shit, this is not the terrible weight of injustice, this is a video game where they are upset they lost a character.  Stop blowing shit up and insisting there are no feel bads in the game, or that we need to overhaul everything whenever someone gets feel bads.

[Harmless]

in a GDB where half the shit people post is either outright toxic, inflammatory, blatantly biased or self-serving or all of the above, I totally and completely reserve my right to post what I want, as long as I follow the GDB rules. Sorry! 

[Armaddict]

Okay.  But I'm still going to post with actual perspective on it as a knee jerk reaction and call it out as such, and bringing in the comparison of school shootings in order to defend that reaction was a stupid move.  No one is advocating rolling up a character with the sole intention of finding an afk person and attacking them.  The frequency of such, and of it actually resulting as desired, is actually very small.

Suggesting what equates to a complete combat change that makes everyone safer from anyone who'd want to kill them is overhype and overreaction, and putting it under the banner of stopping griefing is incredibly narrow in perspective of overall gameplay...unless you're building a defensive game where dying is hard.

Put dwarf behind the karma wall if you want, but we're already having the argument against the karma wall as is.

[Riev]

Woah woah now guys.

Differing opinions? On MY GDB?

This cannot stand.

[Veselka]

Why the hell would we want to make ArmageddonMUD safer?

[valeria]

'Armed' in the SDesc has many problems. Not only is it bulky, but it invalidates 'ready' commands from sleight of hand, etc.

The way I was picturing it, it would tick on when you "eX" "draw" weapon, and tick off when you "sheath" weapon. So if you were pulling a weapon with sleight of hand it wouldn't tick on, if that makes sense.

But let's be real. If you're sleight-of-handing a weapon and not hidden, I don't think it would be crazy that people may notice you're armed.

[CodeMaster]

a dwarf without a collar is worth keeping an eye on

[Scrumpkin]

Knee-jerk reactions abound.

No need for this change.

Making twinks more twinkish.  I agree with Armaddict, no need for this change.

[azuriolinist]

As many have said above, if this is to address the recent events, I think the best course of action is for staff to watch -- if not outright stop -- any applications coming from the one or two people at fault. There's no need for a change that might negatively affect all because of one single and rare case.

That said, if there was a way to attempt to prevent one's victim from escaping combat while inside combat (besides trapping them in a room with only one exit), I might have been more in favor with this idea. As it stands, it's pretty easy for the victim to FLEE a combat situation (unless RNG isn't in their favor).

A short delay after 'kill' is entered, that I could maybe get behind if only to give the slimmest window of a chance for the victim to (if given any hint by the instigator) notice and react. But I'd leave out the echo.

[Nao]

As many have said above, if this is to address the recent events, I think the best course of action is for staff to watch -- if not outright stop -- any applications coming from the one or two people at fault. There's no need for a change that might negatively affect all because of one single and rare case.

That's impossible because there is no way to identify those people. IP addresses are pretty easily changed, so they can just make a new account and start over.

I don't think combat changes to combat that apply to all characters are a good solution, either - as others have pointed out, the code already favors whoever is being attacked, and before these incidents? The consensus seems to have been that cities are too safe already.

[Miradus]

People have been ignoring the room echoes in the Gaj too long as it is. Ever pay attention to those? There's random knifings, beatings, attacks, etc. going on the entire time you're sitting there chatting up Miss MelonBreasts. There's even a filthy breed pissing in the corner and pools of vomit on the floor. If this was a bar in real life, there's no way you'd be in there unarmed.

The only code change I would support is increasing the space at the bar.object so that more than one person can stand there at a time. Harder to stumperize me if I'm standing.

[Delirium]

Stand code is weird with bars. Try "stand ON bar"  - yes, it's quirky, but it works. You will stand at the bar if it's set up to allow it.

[CodeMaster]

People have been ignoring the room echoes in the Gaj too long as it is. Ever pay attention to those? There's random knifings, beatings, attacks, etc. going on the entire time you're sitting there chatting up Miss MelonBreasts. There's even a filthy breed pissing in the corner and pools of vomit on the floor. If this was a bar in real life, there's no way you'd be in there unarmed.

The only code change I would support is increasing the space at the bar.object so that more than one person can stand there at a time. Harder to stumperize me if I'm standing.

All you have to do is move the stools away from the bar and you can stand (I think it's "get stool bar" or "pull stool bar" or something like that)

[Miradus]

Huh. Learn something every day. Thanks!

get stool bar;throw stool breed

Now if I can just learn to stop going back for the fucking beetle, or knife, or whatever object I think is worth my life to try and snatch back from the mob that nearly killed me the first time.

[Harmless]

People have been ignoring the room echoes in the Gaj too long as it is. Ever pay attention to those? There's random knifings, beatings, attacks, etc. going on the entire time you're sitting there chatting up Miss MelonBreasts.

As far as I know, and I have been playing the game for many years and spent many hours reading those Gaj echoes, there are not random "knifings" at the Gaj in the echoes. Look/read harder; there are brawls, cups thrown, savage FISTFIGHT beatings, but not knifings/murders.

Murder is pretty serious. Look at city elf culture docs; if a city elf is just straight up murdered, then there WILL be vengeance. Look at the things even NPC soldiers of His Arm say once they have finished killing a murderer or PC who attempted murder -- they do not tolerate random MURDER.

Murder is important and common, but it happens for a reason; it sends a message, or it is supposed to. It earns someone coin, or costs someone else coin. Life is not quite worthless in Zalanthas; people do not just shrug when someone is randomly MURDERED. In fact, murder, i.e., BLOOD, is the most impotant currency in game.

You save murder for when it counts, because the long Arm of Allanaki law will eventually catch up to you, and you'll find yourself in the Arena facing certain death even if you thought you did well to hide your tracks.

If this was a bar in real life, there's no way you'd be in there unarmed.

Actually, it has been a PC-driven cultural convention for years to question why people are standing around armed in the Gaj. It makes people nervous, rightly so, and on countless occasions His Arm soldiers, from eager redshirt recruits to Sergeants, have asked people in the Gaj to shove those weapons aside, even if it was LITERALLY A CRAFTING KNIFE-PICK item.

If we're going to have a cultural shift where people walk around with weapons all day long, expecting another random murder attempt, then that would be quite a change from years of the standard I have seen.

The same has not been true in Rinthi bars, where murders have happened for IC reasons and weapons are held aloft without question.

[Armaddict]

Actually, it has been a PC-driven cultural convention for years to question why people are standing around armed in the Gaj. It makes people nervous, rightly so, and on countless occasions His Arm soldiers, from eager redshirt recruits to Sergeants, have asked people in the Gaj to shove those weapons aside, even if it was LITERALLY A CRAFTING KNIFE-PICK item.

Which is precisely the backdrop of why they should not be viewed as safe spaces.  Everyone in there is armed, just not wielding.  A knifing -can- erupt at any given point.  A clubbing.  That doesn't mean it's not without repercussions, and it also doesn't mean you should be able to escape from it easily.

[Miradus]

If we're going to have a cultural shift where people walk around with weapons all day long, expecting another random murder attempt, then that would be quite a change from years of the standard I have seen.

Good! Let's do it.

[Harmless]

Not everybody wants to play a character who would walk around with a weapon in hand at all times. Also, if the paradigm shift to be WIELDing (I admit we are all mostly armed, just not wielding, but not wielding +reel lock = death), that might be fine if it happened with some actual roleplay behind it. Instead we have a trend where there is no warning  not even an emote or a say command, before the kill command.

I am still going to argue that normally, roleplayers roleplay before a kill attempt; it doesn't have to always immediately precede the attack, but if someone rolls up a character just to walk into a bar and >kill the first weak-looking unarmed PC they see, then the kill command is not being used as intended in an RPI.

There seems to be some kind of embrace of this new standard. That is fucked. I think if we are going to be "cool" with non-roleplaying shitheads trolling us with random, RP-less attacks, then at least a bit of coded warning that the first strike is coming is needed.

I am cool with many qualifiers added to a code change. Make it so this change only happens in certain bars. Make it so guards have an easier time keeping an area secure from random attacks. Make it so the kill command delay only applies in crowded rooms. Whatever the case, discipline actions are not guaranteed to work for the future. 20-30day plus stories are being ended due to the unilateral action of shitty roleplayers and that is probably not what was intended for an RPI.

[Vox]

Being victimized is never fun, even in the imaginary confines of a role-playing game. Those of us invested in living out as true to our characters as we can in game often feel the actual feelings we're RP'ing. So losing a character regardless of level of RP of the attacker before or after is never going to be met with a smile and a vibrant leap from the keyboard after the beep and Mantis Head pop up. Understanding that anyone around you in the brutal world of Zalanthas can draw a weapon and try to kill you is sort of the 'play at your own risk' of MURDER, CORRUPTION, BETRAYAL, regardless of how much time you've chosen to invest in playing this game. And while it's very possible that this was just a griefer trying to grief it's also possible that it was some new player fresh from a world of Hack n Slash MUD's getting up to test combat on the first warm body they saw, it's also possible this (also probably new player) thought they were doing what their character should do.. it could just as easily have been that a patrolling NPC soldier was triggered and insta ran in to subdue the criminal, save the other player and end the 'attempt'. But bad luck in this case for the victim lead to a quick, punishing death. The issue to me though is the outcry of what players think is fair/possible/expected when it comes to things that happen to their characters. Including some PC apparently attacking like an aggro NPC. And now that it's gotten so much attention, it will probably spawn the occasional copy-cat griefer.. and I truly don't think we should care.

I've OHK'ed players before after wishing up to staff declaring my intention and then RP'ing a brutal scene with lots of hemotes and thoughts that everyone but the victim gets to see and enjoy. And while I did everything by the book I still felt OOC'ly bad that they didn't get some kind of beautiful death scene even though an assassin contract was just completed cleanly, efficiently, realistically and totally IC. I can only imagine the feeling of being robbed of that character's goals and dreams, connections and time invested when they're kicked violently out of the game wondering how and why. Meanwhile I'm vainly hoping they feel special that someone actually paid an assassin to murder them. But let's be real, they definitely don't feel that immediately and probably sent in a request to Staff asking if it was a Bug.. Maybe months from that death they may look back on it and be able to detach and see the greater story at work but I bet they're still salty. Would they be less salty if they saw a quick flavor emote before getting murked? I don't think so.

At the end of the day, whether we're getting assassinated or violently assaulted, there's things that are going to happen to our characters that are beyond our control. It sucks to think that a 'griefer' was behind the wheel of a character's demise, but if we can stay in the greater story of the game then that 'griefer' is just a homicidal maniac, and best believe Zalanthas has more than a few. IC'ly this event has unintentionally created multiple plots and a general unease of dwarves wandering into taverns and that's f'ing AWESOME. OOC'ly Staff will certainly do what they can to track the offending player and cut them off at character creation.. but if they get through, guess what.. DANGER. And danger, is always good.

So, hell no, please don't give validation to a random griefer's intent to cause grief by actually changing the game to address something that isn't even a real issue. Just stay frosty when you see a dwarf carrying around a spiked club..

[Harmless]

Nice post and all, but the 20 year old code behind >kill is basic as fuck, I am going to stick to my guns with that one and bow out of the thread, enjoy your shitty RP, if this goes on too long I am just gonna check out from the MUD entirely because I didn't sign on to RPI for this shit, maybe go and read a good book or some shit.

Will file staff and player complaints on my way out, fwiw.

Btw, ironically yes, yesterday I had another dose of good RP with the game but sure as fuck none of it revolved around mindless PK bullshit, not at all.

Fix basic ass code, make >backstab and >strategy work again. GG griefers

[valeria]

I'm not going to let a solo griefer drive me away from my game, kthx. Staff seems to be pretty on top of the specific issue.

I WOULD like an "armed" adjective for entirely different reasons, and I think that wanting a combat approach is legitimate (even if I don't agree with it). It's not all about the griefer.