Staff And Player Consensus? Remove HGs from play

[Delirium]

If you send a half-giant out to do something unchaperoned, you should expect them to screw it up. "Go patrol for criminals" and you find them hanging out with a notorious Guild face who is "helping them identify criminals".

[Dar]

I hate and love Half Giants at the same time. I love them when they're played properly. But I hate them, not for their improper play, but for my occasional inability to provide them with content. That whole 'someone follows after you, guarding you' routine that some characters do. I love them for it, but it drives me up the walls when I dont have the energy, or creativity to give them something to do. This  does motivate me for coming up with shit and most of the time, I do. But the times when I dont, it sometimes really shakes me. So when Half giants grow slightly smarter with time, enough to be able to provide their own entertainment. I take it as a godsend. Or when I can pair multiple half giants together, so they can create a circus of awesomeness, that is also great.  But on occasion. When my gameplay is more cerebral, I literally avoid playing with half giants.

[Riev]

As others have mentioned, the coded benefits of a half-giant are outweighed by their non-coded discrepancies. A mul is strong, but prone to a rage and hunting by the big cities their entire lives.

A sorcerer can summon a fireball on you, but if they are seen casting a spell they could be reported and hunted.

A magicker can turn your dick into sand, but while allowed to live, they're always untrusted and blamed for every little thing.

A half-giant has a lot of HP, natural armor, and can wear the heaviest/best damage-reducing armor. They have massive strength. They are held back by the non-coded limitations of the roleplay surrounding them, and the fact that they can't be CODED leaders of any clan. Or rather they could be, but staff would reverse it soon.

HGs aren't a problem. The way people play them aren't SPECIFICALLY a problem. That they, like dwarves, are given coded advantages with no coded disadvantages is the issue.

[X-D]

Coded disadvantage? How about wis so low dwarves look like Stephen hawking, Nice high AGI and you might have 4 items in inventory and forget about any of the agi skills being reliable. Hey, I just got a 30 coin pair of gloves...go get them HG sized, that will be 210 coins please. Mounts are like Henry Ford talking, you can have any mount you want as long as it is an inix. A HG with 65 mana is impressive. I want to go in this cave...nope, tunnel, nope, room with my friends...nope.

[Krath]

I have to agree with X-D on this one. There are -tons- of additional coded disadvantages, much which we -cannot- go into because it is IC sensitive information that you would find out playing in game.

As far as how to properly RP a half-giant, we all have our opinions, but maybe the staff needs to give a more thorough explanation as to how to RP one.

[CodeMaster]

I have to agree with X-D on this one. There are -tons- of additional coded disadvantages, much which we -cannot- go into because it is IC sensitive information that you would find out playing in game.

As far as how to properly RP a half-giant, we all have our opinions, but maybe the staff needs to give a more thorough explanation as to how to RP one.

There are two help files to read - I don't think this one is on staff

[Grapes]

Fact is HGs get played weird sometimes, and when they do there's little to encourage treating them as HGs after. Myself, having dealt with a HG previously mentioned as to having been smart enough to hold leadership roles... I did hornswaggle them ICly. I'm not certain the situation is as cut and dried as it can appear on the surface. One isolated incident, yes, one where my PC was staring death right in the face, unflinchingly (elf, if you must know)... well, I conned the shit out of them with bullshit reasoning, even if I was innocent, I felt obligated to be full of shit by virtue of playing an elf. They went with it.

I've seen a lot of HGs complained about, when I complained about a HG, it was mostly through the request tool, and this went ignored, or seemingly so. I played a human PC who was relentlessly persecuted by a HG that never forgot, as soon as I got out of chargen. This did not seem fair, in the slightest, it never got bored or found something else to do, it was always on, from chargen out, my PC was, "That guy who's obviously a witch and you should kill them." (wasn't a witch) for like, a full-on IC year. I got banned because I finally got pissed enough to OOC to the player while they were in the room "Why don't you fuck off?!"

HGs that never forget are an annoyance, for sure. I couldn't get any breathing room even after dissappearing for two IG months.

[Lizzie]

...

Well okay, Skippy.

Meanwhile, I don't see any problem with half-giants. Even many of the ones people complained about, I had fun interacting with. Not all. The Tarzan-esque "me have fun smack-em good on head unga bunga" ones, not so much. But thankfully those are few and far between.

The ones that are a problem, should be brought to the staff's attention. Half-giants are approved as a matter of trust between staff and player. If the player is abusing the privileged, he should be called out. Not to us - but to the staff. In the form of a player complaint.

[X-D]

Legit coded disadvantages, and not nearly all of them. Just because -You- Don't like them or think they are enough is beside the point, people said they don't have any when they have many.  You can pick apart the coded or uncoded advantages to every single class and race in the game.. So what? Every single race/class can be and often is played badly, should they all be removed?

200Hp....ooohhh...I have had humans past 120, dwarves past 150 and HGs with 160. I have taken out a pair of HG warriors with WAY more time played with a single delf ranger under 12 days played in melee...using clubs no less. Hell, I have killed long lived HG's with every other race without any issues.

And You are wrong on the wis...I can make any other race with at least good wis WAY more deadly WAY faster then any HG...without even trying.

Can HG's be power houses, Sure, but then so can anybody else. Do they hit really really hard and wear really heavy armor...Yup...But so what, they actually barely affect the game and leave no lasting legacy.

[Cind]

Just play a dwarf, and learn to think solely about your own survival and your focus. While that can be demanding, no one is going to call you out for refusing to fall for an elf's trick. I don't see how you guys handle average dwarf wisdom, much less the kindergarten hell giants must be.

[stoicreader]

Its too hard to PK in arm. HG just have a realistic ability to murder. If I have a 5 Y/O a spear, they could charge and kill a person with a single strike. They don't need to practice it 100 times against others.

I could teach my grandmother to successful SAP with a brick. She doesn't need to fail at sapping 200 times to master it.

So a giant can one hit kill you with a club to the head... That makes sense. A 10 year old child should be able to do this.

A rinthi half elf assassin should be able to stab you 100 times with a sharpened tooth brush handle in under a minute while you sit together in prison.

A rinthi half elf assassin can't even kill a rat in under a minute.

I get HG seem to be overpowered. But it's not that they are overpowered, its that the game is unbalanced in other aspects and HG are the only CODED realistic race so it's seems they are overpowered.

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I believe that certain HG's can 'seem' like their behavior is an oddity compared to the docs, but sometimes an HG is just mimicking the behavior they are to have seen according to the character concept. If my companions as a young giant were hunter/gatherer sorts, why wouldn't it make sense that I know how to do it. I may not know 'why' I'm doing it, or even why it needs to be done this way, but I still have the ability to do these things because I have seen it done so much. As long as it is simple, look for creatures, beat the shit out of them, cut em up, sell em to Salarr....  that doesn't seem out of character for a half giant at all to me. I played a half giant that would get a lot of things and just take whatever he was paid by the buyer because he didn't know how to count.

What I am trying to say here, is that sometimes looking from an outside perspective, half giants can do things that appear independent, but if you take the opportunity to talk to that player IC, you might find out that they are playing their character, as they see the docs, correctly after all.

[KankWhisperer]

A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

[sleepyhead]

A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.

[Insigne]

A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.

+1.

I don't know how difficult adjusting the skill system for a single race would be, but this is a terrific idea. I think half-giants should be able pick new skills up faster than other races - but never actually master them.

[Strongheart]

A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

I know I'm doing some mild necroing, but I just wanted to +1 this. I have always, always wished HGs worked this way. It would be a perfect fit for their docs.

+1.

I don't know how difficult adjusting the skill system for a single race would be, but this is a terrific idea. I think half-giants should be able pick new skills up faster than other races - but never actually master them.

I concur, that'd be really neat to try out!

[stoicreader]

I would love a non combat HG grebber. A ranger... Outlaw for climb skill.

[seidhr]

Pro tip:  Rangers branch climb easily! 

[Strongheart]

The proiest pro tip that ever tipped!

[stoicreader]

Pro tip:  Rangers branch climb easily! 

I never branched it with my 5 day ranger... How are newbies supposed to figure this shit out?  Fucking stupid game and it's fucking secrets at every damn corner.

I'm trying to breathe calmly. Why is this a Damn secret? Fuck.

What skill does it branch from? I typed forage like 10k times. It's so Damn frustrating.

[Delirium]

Hit me up in helper chat.

[Cind]

You know, I didn't learn how to branch new spells as a witch for about twenty witches. A few of these things really ought to be outlined, or allowed to be talked about.

A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

The first sentence of that out of context I agree with. I don't think HGs should really be able to be merchants, and the idea that they can be a ranger (knowing how to climb, shoot, ride, lead two mounts, get through storms, and recognize and deal with poisons) and an assassin also doesn't feel... right, you know what I mean? It feels like there are too many cerebreal skills on those classes, also I guess you can do what I've been doing for years and ignore half of what you get.

I think the problem boils down to the fact that we are all particularly smart people playing a game where OOCly and ICly you need intelligence to play and one of the races happens to be such a restrictive set of morons that we can't figure out how to do them the way the docs currently say to do them (nonloyal, screwing things up all the time.) If we _really_ played HGs the way they ought to be, it wouldn't be hard for a resourceful elf to figure out how to kill one, and after a while of it we'd come to the conclusion that the strength they bring to the table just might not be worth protecting.

[Flea]

A class system doesn't serve the HG concept well. They should perhaps have many skills but all journeyman at best and they have some mechanic to degrade if they are mimicing another class. They can then somewhat mimic who they are with at that time.

The first sentence of that out of context I agree with. I don't think HGs should really be able to be merchants, and the idea that they can be a ranger (knowing how to climb, shoot, ride, lead two mounts, get through storms, and recognize and deal with poisons) and an assassin also doesn't feel... right, you know what I mean? It feels like there are too many cerebreal skills on those classes, also I guess you can do what I've been doing for years and ignore half of what you get.

I'm of the opinion that half-giants have the capacity to be a little more capable than that.

I agree they shouldn't be able to craft at the same level as a merchant on their own (no elaborate and unique pieces) - but they very well should be able to mimic merchants to a certain degree. Even most 'hands-on' ranger skills (climb, shoot, ride, leading two mounts), I can see them picking up from watching others.

Direction sense does seem to be more of an innate ability than something that's easily observable - but a half-giant trying to navigate anywhere on their own sounds like a recipe for disaster, anyway. Recognizing and dealing with poisons could pretty much go anywhere, with all the finer details and specifics it requires.

According to the help files, half-giants are "observant and imitative". My take on this is that it can extend to the way they learn and pick up new skills. As long as they can mimic it in some way, they can learn it.

This is also why I think they should be able to pick up new accents faster than other races.

[CodeMaster]

I always felt that being "observant and imitative" meant half-giants were more into cargo culting behaviors than acquiring them as actual skills.  Per help half-giant roleplay, "It will take them longer to figure [grammatical rules] out than it would a human, but an adult half-giant understands most."

[Flea]

I'm not sure I understand? You mentioned cargo culting but quoted a line from half-giant documentation that states that half-giants understand most grammar rules (despite how much longer it takes for them to figure them out)?

In retrospect, there are a lot of intricacies to learning a new accent that a half-giant might not pick up on as easily as a human. They might know "good evening" as one thing in a southern accent and fail to recognize the phrase as such from a heavily-accented 'rinther. It was wrong of me to assume that their proclivity to observation and mimicry is some kind of superhuman ability.