Let's Talk About Soldiers

[gotdamnmiracle]

I read earlier in a thread that there was some concern about the high amount of half-giants wandering the street in pitch cloaks because of various reasons. I echo most of them. That said, I think we should focus on solutions and not poke holes, so this thread is about that.

How can we improve soldiers?

(Let's try to think in the realm of current code we could use, including crime code. Saying "Fix the Crimcode", for example, isn't very useful.)

[BadSkeelz]

First, significantly reduce the number of half-giant soldier NPCs. They should only be stationed at strategic points (gates, arena, Templar and Noble quarter entrances). They should never spawn automatically, but should be available for deployment in the event of a major disturbance. Save them for fighting mekillots or sorcerers, not elven pickpockets.

Secondly, look at the prevalence and behavior of crimcode itself. It's my understanding that in the last months of Tuluk, the Warrens had a crimcode somewhere between the rinth (non-existent) and Allanak proper (omnipresent). That if you did not see a soldier NPC, whether in your room or adjacent, you would not get crimflagged. I would very much like to hear from those who experienced this environment and what their thoughts are.

If both of these suggestions were implemented, I think we would next have to look at the distribution of soldiers throughout Allanak. Currently they tend to clump up, leaving large stretches of streets to vNPC policing. To prevent the main roads from becoming completely lawless we would have to sprinkle NPCs along them.

For the human soldiers themselves, I would like to see them armed with clubs for street duty. However, it is my understanding that changing the armaments of NPCs is an incredibly tedious process. So this is at least unlikely to happen as my other ideas. I really don't know how much room there actually is to work with within the "current code."

[Eyeball]

> For the human soldiers themselves, I would like to see them armed with clubs for street duty.

What is the rationale here?

Let's see if I can figure it out. If they are armed with clubs, they might knock a criminal out before killing him/her.

Then, either (1) the criminal will heal up while sleeping, wake up, and get a chance to run again (rinse and repeat), or (2) get dragged off to jail and released after a while if no PC templars are about.

Either way, it seems like PCs could go on crime sprees with little consequence after they've mapped out PC templar/soldier play times.

[BadSkeelz]

You can already do that if you limit your criminal activities to off-peak (or at least when PC Templars aren't awake) and letting soldiers grab you.

And if a pickpocket or burglar gets his ass beaten and left in the gutter, is that really so out of character for Allanak?

The goal of course is to lessen the lethality of the crimcode so that dealing with it is not such an all or nothing proposition.

[BadSkeelz]

I should add two points:

1) It is already possible to get extremely wealthy through criminal activities. If you know the code currently and what the good marks are, you're already set. So the "what about twinks!?" Argument is not persuasive to me; the situation already exists.

2) A second goal of mine, in tandem to making the crimcode less lethal to interact with, is to make  player interactions more potentially lethal.

[Eyeball]

I can tell you how I'll respond to increased insecurity and more criminal activity in the streets. Most of my characters (except for the foolhardy one or two) would not go out of whichever clan compound except as part of an armed group. Because a self-imposed limitation like that is preferable to having one's objectives and goals arbitrarily derailed by random killer criminal #932093.

So even less interaction happening in the city.

[nauta]

In my view, the 'danger level' is about right, that is, the risk of death vs. the reward of a stealthy action is pretty OK.  As Eyeball points out, in terms of 'game design' you want a system that falls somewhere between 'PK is impossible' and 'staying alive is impossible'.  That said:

1. I'd primary fix things to educate the user about what is a criminal activity and what is not, via a test command or documentation.

2. I'd code soldiers to behave differently for non-murderous actions (stealing and the like).  If a soldier detects a steal attempt (or if you are flagged as wanted because you stole something), then the soldier would perform the following routine (rather than the current subdue/kill one, which would be reserved for murderers):

a. Dehood the thief, thus exposing them to the world. (That's the biggest risk for a thief.)
b. If the thief does not have a weapon drawn, stick to subdue attempts.  (Draw a club or just use fists.)
c. As soon as the thief draws a weapon, kick in the old crimcode and murder them.
d. If the soldier's hps or stun drops below 50%, kick in the old crimcode and murder them.

So the idea here is that the 'thief' would either get grabbed or punched/clubbed.  Provided the thief isn't trying to kill the soldier, the soldier likely won't make a big fuss if the thief makes its flee check and escapes the subdue.  If the thief draws a weapon or keeps fighting the soldier, then, well, they'll get what they get.

[Dar]

I can tell you how I'll respond to increased insecurity and more criminal activity in the streets. Most of my characters (except for the foolhardy one or two) would not go out of whichever clan compound except as part of an armed group. Because a self-imposed limitation like that is preferable to having one's objectives and goals arbitrarily derailed by random killer criminal #932093.

So even less interaction happening in the city.

Labyrinth has zero law, period. And people are 'still' not doing what you're describing. I'm sorry, mister, but I think you're overexagerrating to a point of incongruity.

[Eyeball]

I can tell you how I'll respond to increased insecurity and more criminal activity in the streets. Most of my characters (except for the foolhardy one or two) would not go out of whichever clan compound except as part of an armed group. Because a self-imposed limitation like that is preferable to having one's objectives and goals arbitrarily derailed by random killer criminal #932093.

So even less interaction happening in the city.

Labyrinth has zero law, period. And people are 'still' not doing what you're describing. I'm sorry, mister, but I think you're overexagerrating to a point of incongruity.

Are you trying to tell me PKing is not a thing in the Labyrinth? 

Then if people aren't going to commit crimes, why do we need changes to the crime code? 

EDIT: Why do you want to make the main part of the city more like the Labyrinth? Frustrated that those dressy aides are protected?

[Lizzie]

I think - once upon a time there weren't this many HGs and other soldiers. But once upon a time npcs used to dupe with every crash, and those dupes would dupe at the -next- crash, and so on and so forth. I think we now have as many NPC soldiers because of this original problem years ago. I suggest we drastically reduce the number of NPC soldiers. HGs and humans. There shouldn't be more than half a dozen in the entire elemental quarter (for example), and they shouldn't be clustered together. There shouldn't be 5 HG soldiers at the east gate at all times.

That's another problem - soldiers don't return to their spawn points after they chase someone around. You end up with half a dozen soldiers all clustered in one room, and none where those NPCs are really supposed to be. I don't know if there even is a way to script NPCs to return to a certain room or section of an area, after they've completed whatever it is they moved for in the first place. But I think this would go a long way in "fixing" the problem, if such a thing was possible.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I can tell you how I'll respond to increased insecurity and more criminal activity in the streets. Most of my characters (except for the foolhardy one or two) would not go out of whichever clan compound except as part of an armed group. Because a self-imposed limitation like that is preferable to having one's objectives and goals arbitrarily derailed by random killer criminal #932093.

So even less interaction happening in the city.

Labyrinth has zero law, period. And people are 'still' not doing what you're describing. I'm sorry, mister, but I think you're overexagerrating to a point of incongruity.

Are you trying to tell me PKing is not a thing in the Labyrinth? 

Then if people aren't going to commit crimes, why do we need changes to the crime code? 

EDIT: Why do you want to make the main part of the city more like the Labyrinth? Frustrated that those dressy aides are protected?

Well that's a bit of a logical extreme. I don't think it's all about PKing and I don't think because they change the amount of half-giants there will be roving packs of holligans murdering people. I mean, couldn't people do that now if they really wanted? A squad of bynners could probably clean out most of the city I'd bet (aside from specific clumps) as long as they took it slow. The reason players don't is good RP and the rules.

For example, there's nothing stopping a player from walking out with the contents of a player's apartment (cabinet, trunks, cots, coatstand, agafari logs, and all) other than a strength roll and the rules. If someone is participating in bad RP and breaking the rules they should be reported, be that rampaging through the city or what.

I don't think saying people will suddenly start breaking the rules is a particularly good argument.

[Eyeball]

I don't think saying people will suddenly start breaking the rules is a particularly good argument.

Isn't the whole point of such a change to make it easier for criminals to break the rules (i.e. Allanaki law)?

[Hauwke]

Ive actually wondered just how many people it would take to clear out the entirety of Allanak, at least the standard everyday Allanak as apposed to staff responding and loading up the correct counter measures.

Anyway, on topic: I think the HG's need to be lowered in terms of numbers. I honestly dont think they would even make as good a soldier as people think. They eat like a pair of horses, require huge amounts of water. That is to simply keep them sustained,then you have actually training a 12 foot child with the strength of ten men in a safe way so that you dont lose your valued human soldiers, and then there is the whole thing of keeping them entertained, how manu children can you get to sit and guard a door all day long? I cant get my kid to sit on a couch and watch tv for more than an hour let alone all day, and tv is entertaining!

Maybe keep one or two at each gate, and that makes sense to me.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I don't think saying people will suddenly start breaking the rules is a particularly good argument.

Isn't the whole point of such a change to make it easier for criminals to break the rules (i.e. Allanaki law)?

I'm talking about game rules, the main one in question being forced RP or the nature of an RPI. Allanak law (or more specifically the insane polarity used to enforce it) is hardly the norm for the rest of the Known and is actively opposite to some aspects of the gameworld. You primarily found issue with things that would be emursion breaking such as roving gangs of PKers trying to set up shop in the commoners quarter, correct? Those things would break that game rule.

To take Nak's rules as the norm would be ridiculous. Magick is legal in Allanak, despite every other location actively hunting down and killing magick users and spice is illegal, despite it being the LARGEST business outside of Allanak aside from whatever Tuluk is up to these days.

To say we can't change because of the possibility of people breaking the rules is tantamount to saying we can't rely on the rules to be properly enforced in EVERY other part of the game world outside of a measly 40+ room area. And yet Luirs is still popping. Sans gangs of PKers.

[chrisdcoulombe]

So Allanak soldiers already try to subdue you first even if you are a murderer.  I am confused at some of the points trying to be made.    Some people need to play some more throwaway criminals and learn how it works a bit better is what it sounds like.  In b4 pickpocket army.

[nauta]

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to go with this suggestion:

1. Remove 'nosave arrest' (or make it a synonym with 'nosave subdue').

2. If the criminal does not have a weapon drawn AND if the soldier's hps and stun are greater than 50%, THEN attempt to subdue criminal.

3. If the criminal draws a weapon OR if the soldier's hps and stun are less than 50%, THEN have the soldier draw weapons and attempt to murder the fool.

The upshot I'm hoping for here with that bit of logic flow there is something like this in prose: crime will get you arrested and hauled off to prison (subdue).  If you resist arrest by drawing a weapon on a soldier or fighting back (a few punches in the face are fine, but you better disengage fast if you attempt to subdue and engage them in combat), then expect the soldier to attempt to kill you.

I also like the idea of having soldiers' first action be to remove the hood/facewrap of a criminal, thus exposing them to the general public.  Too often I see a 'hooded' figure being taken off...

[gotdamnmiracle]

So Allanak soldiers already try to subdue you first even if you are a murderer.  I am confused at some of the points trying to be made.    Some people need to play some more throwaway criminals and learn how it works a bit better is what it sounds like.  In b4 pickpocket army.

I'm not sure how much is able to be discussed, but my issue is not with the subdue at all, but rather when you try to break and get punched from 115 points of stun to 0 in one hit by a max strength roll half-giant. I assume other people have similar issues. Sometimes you don't want to be caught for RP reasons and I'm not sure that in and of itself should be a death sentence.

[IronGold]

I think the Crime code is fine. I hate to say it, but I think that if you're attempting to run from a half-giant and getting insta-gibbed that is really your own fault for getting caught in the first place and for trying to run away from a half-giant. Crime isn't meant to be easy street even though despite this thread it can be.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I think the Crime code is fine. I hate to say it, but I think that if you're attempting to run from a half-giant and getting insta-gibbed that is really your own fault for getting caught in the first place and for trying to run away from a half-giant. Crime isn't meant to be easy street even though despite this thread it can be.

Saying the crime code is fine is a hilarious stretch. Casting magick in your apartment, alone? Wanted! Sparring in your apartment with the other player's consent? Wanted! Subduing a rat? Wanted!

I think the parts that do work (like capturing PCs and tossing them in jail) could be accomplished with human NPCs much better than half-giants.

All of that said however, you're missing the point of this thread. This isn't a critique on crime code. The first post asks "How can we improve soldiers?". If you don't have anything constructive to add why waste the time posting?

[Molten Heart]

.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I think variety among the patrolling soldiers would be very interesting to see. Quietly we saw a change in some of the Templarate stationed around the city, notably those in the bazaar. Instead of the usual weapons and armor that are easily gotten they are weilding items that appear fitting of tgeir station.

I think that a change would be beneficial among the patrols as well. On a walk about the city you could pass privates clad in a mishmash of cheap equipment and lacking any scars or physical intimidation, sergeants covered in burns and ghoulish disfigurement and clad in shining black and green along with everything in between tgese extremes. Additionally, we currently see no dwarves which are definitely in the AOD, just ask Meso. Further we can use any of the variety of guilds, assuming most of the current soldiers are just warriors.

This way it's not exactly a cookie cutter half-giant that either nabs you or kills you. There's variety and weak spots in a patrol, just like in real life.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Saying the crime code is fine is a hilarious stretch. Casting magick in your apartment, alone? Wanted! Sparring in your apartment with the other player's consent? Wanted! Subduing a rat? Wanted!

Did the crim code change recently? From my experience this seems like an inaccurate depiction of the crimecode.

Try any of those things and get back to me. Unless, in fact, it has changed these are all good ways to get dumped into a jail cell.

Then there's the obvious issue of the lack of use disguises are. If my PC dresses up as a borsail slave, shaves his hea,d and changes his name it simply won't matter to the current state of the militia which will immediately know you and try to nab/kill you. This is problematic in the case of someone being hunted over a long period. It detracts from them actually going into the city making the individuals who could chase after them (the sabers) useless, because they aren't going to wander into Luirs, Red Storm, or the Rinth after a possible criminal. In one fell swoop we've lowered The likely of players using disguses and of the pursuit of criminals because neither of these parties are allowed to meet.

[nauta]

Saying the crime code is fine is a hilarious stretch. Casting magick in your apartment, alone? Wanted! Sparring in your apartment with the other player's consent? Wanted! Subduing a rat? Wanted!

Did the crim code change recently? From my experience this seems like an inaccurate depiction of the crimecode.

This disagreement ^^^^ is why the biggest thing, I think, we can do to improve the crimcode is education: educate us, the players, on what actions flag you and what actions do not, be it via documentation or an in-built command like 'test' or some sort of 'are you sure y/n?' prompt.

(NB, it is still generally against the rules of the code discussion forum to talk about actual code mechanics, so I'm not advocating doing that here.  I mean improve the help files to make it perspicuous, and maybe add a command that we can use to determine if an action will flag you.)

[chrisdcoulombe]

The soldiers in Yaroch attack you even if you are assisting them.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

Crimcode is absolutely not perfect.

It always favours whoever isn't the criminal. That might sound perfect, but take that to the extremes... Someone subdued and peacefully being arrested could just be whapped upon and bam, the soldier's like "oh fuck there's a fight, better kill the criminal". And whoever was enough of a jackass to do it is fine because hey, they're just hurting criminals.

Of course, crimcode isn't SIMPLE. That's the toughest thing here - so to fix that, what, you make it so anyone who hurts anyone becomes wanted and whacked upon? Okay, well now you have a new soldier rushing in to kill the peacefully-subdued first criminal, while the subduing soldier rushes to kill the newcoming criminal. And if you just make it so whoever whacked is wanted and keep the other criminal at whatever state of arrest they were? Well, then every single person helping to take down a dangerous mass-murderer or even, say, a rampaging creature inside the city would be wanted, and rats would no longer be free kill, because if you whack them, you're wanted.

It's not a simple fix, and that's the most annoying thing about all of this, I expect - for every problem, undoing it will cause two more.

But we can start with things we CAN fix, like making half-giants sensibly placed, or MAYBE keeping a better check for what broke someone's subdue (instead of just 'subdue broken, kill the criminal', etc etc, you could have 'subdue broken by someone else, criminal still considered peaceful/nonlethal'... but even that makes more problems.).

Crimcode is a jumbled horrific mess of thorns, honestly.