Legal for commoners to read and write in Red Storm?

[Eyeball]

Red Storm isn't a "city state" after all.

[Is Friday]

Sounds like a good way to attract too much attention.

[sleepyhead]

"Illegal" or not, no one in Red Storm is going to want to be known as someone who can do that.

[Grapes]

But Red Storm is a place where you don't ask questions, and snitching is probably a bad idea as well. So I'd assume, anything's legal as long as you don't get caught.

[Patuk]

But Red Storm is a place where you don't ask questions, and snitching is probably a bad idea as well. So I'd assume, anything's legal as long as you don't get caught.

That's true of anywhere, though.

[Molten Heart]

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[Akariel]

Legality for reading and writing are coded into the game. If you would like to test it out, please attempt to read text near a guard of Red Storm.

Hint: They'll murder you just as fast as a Templar in Tuluk or Allanak would.

[stark]

Having seen the guards break into an apartment and kill someone they saw practicing majik through the windows... I've had a VERY healthy respect for the Sand Lord's justice.

[Eyeball]

Legality for reading and writing are coded into the game. If you would like to test it out, please attempt to read text near a guard of Red Storm.

Hint: They'll murder you just as fast as a Templar in Tuluk or Allanak would.

Which leads to the question as to why the Sand Lord seems to be an enlightened sort (no slavery, no templar-equivalents extorting people), yet still is a harsh tyrant about this one. Or is he concerned Allanak will stomp his village if word gets out that people are starting to create a library.

Anyhow, ok, so it is.

[deskoft]

Legality for reading and writing are coded into the game. If you would like to test it out, please attempt to read text near a guard of Red Storm.

Hint: They'll murder you just as fast as a Templar in Tuluk or Allanak would.

Which leads to the question as to why the Sand Lord seems to be an enlightened sort (no slavery, no templar-equivalents extorting people), yet still is a harsh tyrant about this one. Or is he concerned Allanak will stomp his village if word gets out that people are starting to create a library.

Anyhow, ok, so it is.

I wonder that too!

[Riev]

Legality for reading and writing are coded into the game. If you would like to test it out, please attempt to read text near a guard of Red Storm.

Hint: They'll murder you just as fast as a Templar in Tuluk or Allanak would.

Which leads to the question as to why the Sand Lord seems to be an enlightened sort (no slavery, no templar-equivalents extorting people), yet still is a harsh tyrant about this one. Or is he concerned Allanak will stomp his village if word gets out that people are starting to create a library.

Anyhow, ok, so it is.

Because only educated Nobles who control 99% of the Knowns wealth and commodities can read and write, and if you're not one of those elites... you're probably some magicker with a secret book that tells you secrets and gives you ways to kill the Sandlord.

Better keep that shit under wraps.

My concern is... how do guards know the difference between some guy drawing some sketches of eyes and lizards and such, and someone trying to decipher their own attempt at language?

[sleepyhead]

It would be pretty dumb for someone to try to read or write in public in Red Storm anyway. You should never find out that it'll get you immediately executed because if you are smart enough to be literate you should be smart enough to realize that one way or another, flaunting this kind of knowledge WILL get you killed.

[Eyeball]

It would be pretty dumb for someone to try to read or write in public in Red Storm anyway. You should never find out that it'll get you immediately executed because if you are smart enough to be literate you should be smart enough to realize that one way or another, flaunting this kind of knowledge WILL get you killed.

I would expect it to be made public knowledge, rather than something you have to sacrifice a character for and then carry the knowledge on OOCly to the next character as Akariel suggested.

[sleepyhead]

You are right. The coded side of things should be well-known.

However, what you are saying is kind of separate from what I'm saying, which is that with or without the crimcode element, it would still be extremely unwise for your character to do this in a public place. It'd be kind of like announcing publicly that you are a sorcerer. The crimcode will not get you for that, but it's still incredibly irresponsible and very likely to get you killed. People spec apping for rogue literates are likely to be reminded of what a dangerous secret it is, no matter where one goes in the world.

[Decadent Decisions]

Attempting to decipher or recreate language without the help of a nobleborn or someone who can read/write will be met with 'do not attempt to do that' from staff side, in my experience. I've had PCs who for various reasons wanted to do things that broached this line, and while I felt it within reason (and history in our reality suggests it should be easily accomplished given the amount of near self-taught individuals who managed a hold on certain things) staff do not want the game to go that direction, according to someone who spoke with me at that time. I welcome everybody to try though and maybe you will be the one to get through.

There are some methods by which you may learn to read and write, though.

As to why Red Storm may or may not enforce certain laws that 'could' potentially have little effect on -that- population, and large effect on others...well, ask yourself why you never see templars assaulting the Red Storm gates. Why Red Storm exists, so near Allanak despite being full of criminals. No one seriously thinks Allanak just saw a rise of a village on the edge of the sea full of property of nobleborn and criminals and farmers and everything between, and just decided, 'We don't care about that at all!'...do you? I have no access to further documents than any of you on the matter, but I think it's pretty blatant that someone somewhere high is working out big deals with the big 'A'. Red Storm wouldn't survive a serious assault by Allanak. I always assumed they were kept around because whether the muls/criminals think they're free or not, they're generating revenue for Allanak through grain or spice indirectly. Somewhere far back, no doubt in various dealings for Trade, some amount of mandates were passed between some Black/Red robe and the Sand Lord, to allow a reasonable degree of division and separation without outright war. You'd see this among city-states in our own world, too.

'No reading or writing' would be pretty high up on the list of powerful red/black robes to mandate, given you wouldn't want people...you know, managing to come across ancient texts full of the secrets to immortality and turning people into combustible intestine splatter and risking the rise of a third Sorcerer-King.

[Blur]

It  does seems a little strange have the legality of reading and writing coded into any guards especially in a place like redstorm. I might understand Templar NPCs might trigger crimcode but even that is a stretch. You might as well, make paper with any random scribbles illegal instead as far as anyone is concerned.

I think reading and writing should be treated like languages in game. In that some commoners know how to read/write in a very primitive way. While all the important books and reading resources are written in a more complex and advance writing style that only highborn are able to learn. Similar to how commoners speak Sirihish, while only Templars are allowed to learn and speak Tatlum.

Tatlum from the help files:

Code Select Expand

This is the oldest of the known human languages, some claiming that humanity learned it from the dragon, others insisting that it was given to humans by powerful elementals. The truth would be impossible to determine amid so many legends.

In current times, Tatlum is spoken only by templars. It is not that only templars bother to study the language, but that the law forbids commoners to know it, in either its spoken or written form. This holds true for both of the city-states, Allanak and Tuluk, today.

The spoken version of this language closely resembles Mirukkim, and the two languages hold a number of words in common. Little else is known about this language, or if it is, people will not reveal it for fear of punishment from the templarate.

[Kankfly]

It  does seems a little strange have the legality of reading and writing coded into any guards especially in a place like redstorm. I might understand Templar NPCs might trigger crimcode but even that is a stretch. You might as well, make paper with any random scribbles illegal instead as far as anyone is concerned.

I think reading and writing should be treated like languages in game. In that some commoners know how to read/write in a very primitive way. While all the important books and reading resources are written in a more complex and advance writing style that only highborn are able to learn. Similar to how commoners speak Sirihish, while only Templars are allowed to learn and speak Tatlum.

Tatlum from the help files:

Code Select Expand

This is the oldest of the known human languages, some claiming that humanity learned it from the dragon, others insisting that it was given to humans by powerful elementals. The truth would be impossible to determine amid so many legends.

In current times, Tatlum is spoken only by templars. It is not that only templars bother to study the language, but that the law forbids commoners to know it, in either its spoken or written form. This holds true for both of the city-states, Allanak and Tuluk, today.

The spoken version of this language closely resembles Mirukkim, and the two languages hold a number of words in common. Little else is known about this language, or if it is, people will not reveal it for fear of punishment from the templarate.

That's interesting. Actually, I think now that the drawing skill is IG, it's entirely possible to play out some form of primitive 'writing' (aka drawing) to pass some sort of knowledge down to other people. I don't think that would be considered 'writings' or 'reading' either, since they're just drawings, and so might not even be considered illegal.

[Riev]

Any attempt at using drawing/illustrations as a crude form of communication is probably going to be found out REAL quick, if staff even allow it in the first place.

However, I'd love to see a "So whats the situation, Informant? Report." and then just get handed a sheet of paper that illustrates half a dozen Soldiers on a street corner or something.

Illustrate could be so cool.

[sleepyhead]

I did this recently, which is to say I used drawing as a crude method of communication. I depicted a threatening situation as a warning. It wasn't anything close to written text and I'm quite certain staff had no problem with it.

[Kankfly]

Any attempt at using drawing/illustrations as a crude form of communication is probably going to be found out REAL quick, if staff even allow it in the first place.

However, I'd love to see a "So whats the situation, Informant? Report." and then just get handed a sheet of paper that illustrates half a dozen Soldiers on a street corner or something.

Illustrate could be so cool.

I don't see why not. It's not considered reading/writing, so why can't it be used to convey information?

[Hauwke]

If you draw a hand with the middle finger up, its pretty clear what it is even without the ability to read.

[stark]

There has been a huge amount of people wanting to make "illustrated books" and I'm not entirely certain anymore of what the staff rule is for this. I remember many years ago that things like that were dangerous and kept squirreled away on compounds away from low-level players that might carry them off into a tavern and end up dead. Is this now something that is rather common and no longer dangerous to possess?

[Grogerif]

If you draw a hand with the middle finger up, its pretty clear what it is even without the ability to read.

Obviously they were trying to draw Allanak.  A tower rising from a group of buildings, but why all the naked body parts on the rest of the page?  Maybe they are trying to convey a party at House Fale?

[Grapes]

I imagine it's not just the crimcode, but even if they "fixed" it, the cost to players of testing it, just always what I assumed it was, I could be vastly incorrect... read/write code, to my understanding, is so wonky you don't want to play with it.

EDIT: Whatever, poorly worded, but that there's ancient, pervasive crim-code in effect, um, I'd pay a breed to test it;

[sleepyhead]

There has been a huge amount of people wanting to make "illustrated books" and I'm not entirely certain anymore of what the staff rule is for this. I remember many years ago that things like that were dangerous and kept squirreled away on compounds away from low-level players that might carry them off into a tavern and end up dead. Is this now something that is rather common and no longer dangerous to possess?

The 'draw' and 'look' commands won't get anyone roflstomped. In the past, people have done illustrations with the 'write' command, which was not ideal because people who could not read that language would not even know there was supposed to be an illustration there, much less what it was of. Now that 'draw' is the standard for illustrations, you can do illustrated books without any kind of literacy.

So if it really is just a book of illustrations, you don't have anything to worry about, codedly at least. If someone present gets the wrong impression and starts spreading around that you look at books, though, you might still end up in hot water.

[Grapes]

unlatch bag MUL GANK SQUAD.

[sleepyhead]

unlatch bag MUL GANK SQUAD.

Thank goodness THAT'S fixed. It never happened to me but I heard the horror stories.

[Grapes]

unlatch bag MUL GANK SQUAD.

Thank goodness THAT'S fixed. It never happened to me but I heard the horror stories.

Agreed. I'm glad the crim-code has gotten a much-needed update, I'm sure it wasn't easy, I'm not pointing fingers and trying to say adding new things is bad because it kills people in unexpected ways or anything, as I'm sure it was probably a challenge to fix it. The alternative is to not get shiny new toys, which isn't a good alternative. More detail for law enforcement means more RP opportunities, so the end result is a win-win, despite some hiccups before it became a thing. Anyway, sorry for the slight derail.

[Jihelu]

I have been many a tackled for unlatching my own bag.
Many being like twice.
Staff was nice enough both times to save me.

Thank you staff.


Onto the actual topic...
I don't see why Storm would give a shit about reading and writing. IRC there was a rumor over this a while ago, it was a player rumor so it's not 'canon', but it did mention something like 'well who gives a shit' or something of that nature, which I agreed with.
If I saw someone reading why would I give more of a shit than if I saw some elf crafting a knife at a table? I'm there to keep my head down.

[Boogerbear]

I don't see why Storm would give a shit about reading and writing. IRC there was a rumor over this a while ago, it was a player rumor so it's not 'canon', but it did mention something like 'well who gives a shit' or something of that nature, which I agreed with.
If I saw someone reading why would I give more of a shit than if I saw some elf crafting a knife at a table? I'm there to keep my head down.

In a place like Red Storm where writing to criticize nobility/templarate/the highlord isn't as big of a factor, there might be other concerns.

From a commoner's perspective in Storm, seeing someone reading might invoke ideas of noble houses/the templarate, which are reviled by many in Red Storm.  Is the reading/writing person a spy for a noble/templar?  Since secrecy is a huge part of the written word on ArmageddonMUD, a commoner, especially many Red Stormers, probably would associate it with nobility/templars and be suspicious/concerned as a result.

From an NPC leadership perspective, writing would serve as a means to consolidate dissent or, even worse, spread information like the secrets behind magick.  Also, the counter to city-state espionage thing could be a factor here, too.

Then again, RS is known for the whole "don't fuck with other people, regardless" mentality, but there is a difference between crimes like stealing/attacking/murdering... and publicly displaying something which could be the equivalent to a blueprint for nukes on Arm - or a means to communicate with/spy for entities many RS residents are hiding from.

The "keeping your head down" thing only goes so far, especially when it relates to magick or associations with nobility/the templarate.

Part of Red Storm's culture seems like the "don't ask, don't tell" policy that was previously in place for same-sex relationships in the US military.  As long as a gay person in the military didn't make it known openly, they weren't typically fucked with, even if others suspected.  But cross that line and openly do something overtly gay, like kiss another man on base, and you're 100% fired.

It would be situational for PCs, too.  An escaped slave whose memories of writing are directly linked with templars checking tomes or ledgers would have a vastly different reaction than a Kadian employee just passing through on business.  But since writing *is* so uncommon, it would probably illicit a stronger reaction than murder, which is far, far more common.  Your PC might not say anything because of fear or, if a Red Storm native, ingrained culture, but a dude sitting at the bar in RS casually looking through a book filled with written words would probably be as common as a Borsail Wyvern stopping by at the same place for some spiced ale.  Or even less common, because AFAIK it isn't technically illegal to be a noble/noble employee in RS (though it's certainly asking for it), but, as an imm said, doing so in front of soldiers is a death sentence.  Even the GMHs have a vested interest in keeping the masses illiterate, so, regardless of Sand Lord justifications, Kurac and others with a strong RS presence would be just as motivated to suppress literacy.

I can't recall if literacy is illegal in Luir's.  IN THEORY, Cavilish is supposed to be vastly different from Sirihish, relating mainly to finances, so it would supposedly be harder to, say, write a work of fiction or spy book in Cavilish.  In practice, players tend to use Cavilish just as if it were Sirihish when it comes to recording stories, whether they're right or wrong. So, at least in Luir's, it seems like there would be an attempt to distinguish which language is being written/read by authorities and any scenarios, to me at least, would be wwaaayy more situational and dependent on the PC in questions/who they're working for.

[Cind]

I think the reaction ranges from "I didn't see nothing" to "Let's wait and see if they do it again" to "Hello, stranger. What are you drawing?" but while the docs say people often wait outside the village for troublemakers to leave, you don't really see this from the playerbase itself.

For us players, to see 'The tall, muscular man studies a red leather-bound book' immediately evokes the idea of reading, but to a Zalanthan, who would probably see art and painting and drawing far more than they ever do writing, they would probably think more immediately of pictures. The only book I've ever held in my career in Arm was a sketchbook. If this game were a real place, I doubt anyone would be suspicious enough that it was something besides drawing to actually get worried, but if its someone known to make trouble they'd probably check. Some are escaped slaves too so there's that I guess.

[Inky]

Realistically there are going to be scribes tallying sacks of grain and spice hauls. So I'm doubtful there are any redstormers that don't know what writing is.

And secondly the ban on writing is actually kind of a silly holdover from dark sun. Again, realistically scribes would be relatively common place, though only the elite (nobles merchants etc) would have the resources and time to learn in the first place anyways.

[Cind]

If you go back far enough in history, the vast majority of surviving writing tallies things like that--- payments, shipments and stocks of goods, food, and livestock. It was probably legally wise to write everything down so no one could dispute that a shipment of goats last month was missing ten females. If you could get away with stuff like that, the whole system collapses.

[Boogerbear]

Realistically there are going to be scribes tallying sacks of grain and spice hauls. So I'm doubtful there are any redstormers that don't know what writing is.

And secondly the ban on writing is actually kind of a silly holdover from dark sun. Again, realistically scribes would be relatively common place, though only the elite (nobles merchants etc) would have the resources and time to learn in the first place anyways.

Personally, never really considered written Cavilish extending very far at all beyond GMHs.  Not sure if Red Storm financiers except maybe at the higher levels would have a fully developed written language or just use numbers.

Kurac's a really prominent House there, and the spice business is a huge part of Red Storm's economy.  So, spicers might sometime see Kuraci spice collectors writing things in Cavilish, which is supposed to be a mostly-numbers language?  Or maybe "spice collector" is a shitty job that not many Kuracis (mostly family members) trained to write in a language would have.

Since there's a stigma and legal issues that come along with writing, people involved with inventory/sales/finance might be chosen for their really good memories or ability to keep up with things in ways not involving writing something on a piece of paper.

[Dar]

Having said, all of that, just to make it painfully obvious. The main reason why Red Storm omgwtfpwns you for reading, is because reading is hardcoded as an illegal activity and changing that for 'one' city and not others, is just a significant task. I surmise reading is illegal in blackwing outpost too.