What to do with Tuluk

[evilcabbage]

after what i saw happening in tuluk, i don't think it's business as usual, but that's something staff would have to come down to say, and i'm not saying any more on the matter than that.

[Molten Heart]

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[Jihelu]

Apparently Tuluki pcs can bribe their way out of the city.


So if I make a Tuluki can I know what the fuck is going on?

[Grapes]

Good fucking GODS men, when I posted the question to ask the staff, I was curious as to the ongoing plot, not zombie nightmare fuel... although, that's, never been mutually exclusive with Tuluk.

[Sorry]

There could be noteworthy things happening in Tuluk but after leaving, people may just not remember for some reason, I don't know why. Probably not zombies, that'd be crazy.

[LucildaHunta]

The potential for a really good plot is there, IJS!

[Patuk]

What annoyed me about Tuluk was always and ever how top-heavy it felt. No labyrinth, no Red Storm for spicers and rogues of whatever sorts, no nothing. It showed.

On my last ever Tuluki character, I recall being the most foulmouthed little piece of shit I could be; I swore, looked scruffy, behaved poorly, did everything I could to be low class. It didn't matter a single thing, as I got job offers for any and all kinds of noble clans and the like to become a person of good standing despite being a rude little guttersnipe.

So, if Tuluk reopens, this is what I'd argue for:

Open two noble houses, no more. Removing Liratheans was an excellent move, please do not resuscitate. Bardic circles become virtual, though nobles can (obviously) hire bards of their own, if they really want to, just as a lord in Allanak can hire a bard if they are so inclined. Open a celf tribe that please God isn't the Akai Sjir, and some avenue for human criminality that isn't Templar-controlled as well. Rewrite the omniscient anti-mage code to make sure the legions have at least a little work to put in.

Tuluk was a place where players formed the upper crust of society much more than they do in Allanak, and it was a dynamic that got unsettling way too quickly.

[HavokBlue]

At least one noble house was trying to hire guttersnipes and riff-raff and rogues as paid thugs and criminals (not Shadow Artists) but they never managed to last more than three days.

[Riev]

At least one noble house was trying to hire guttersnipes and riff-raff and rogues as paid thugs and criminals (not Shadow Artists) but they never managed to last more than three days.

I think losing Undertuluk as a haven for illegal crime was a real shame. I know it was just mirroring the Labyrinth, and crime was 'legal' in Tuluk, but I always thought of it like Demolition Man. People CHOSE to live underground, away from the utopia of the surface world, because there they were free to choose. Tuluk told you how to eat, where to sleep, to smile and be friendly but duplicitous. You could be a criminal, so long as Big Brother is keyed in. Undertuluk allowed you to be a real criminal, fighting against the oppressors.

Then Shartists became a thing, and there wasn't room for anything otherwise, because a caste of all-knowing psionicists with an inherent need to control everything (lore wise, nothing against players) isn't good for illegal business.

[nauta]

One question to ask ourselves: What did Tuluk get right?  Put another way, what did Tuluk offer that is no longer on offer in the gameworld?  Could this be re-introduced without the rest of Tuluk?  It seems to me that Tuluk offered an outlet to primarily social players that wasn't on offer elsewhere, but I'm having a hard time putting my finger on it.  Here's a stab at a start:

1. A place for social/city players to respawn after a death to get away from their old friends and plots.  (This is sort of a meta feature and applicable to any city, really.)

2. A ready-made antagonist for Allanaki citizens.  (This again is sort of a meta feature applicable to any city.)

3. An outlet for players interested in putting on plays and other (more classically defined) cultural works (i.e., more than bloodsports and bar songs) to a general audience.

4. Was there a more stable apartment system (as a function of shadow artists / all-knowing templarate)?  I feel like there was a lot more SIMs-style apartment building in Tuluk than Allanak, but this could likely be just misperception on my end.

[Lizzie]

What they got right:
1. The rebellion
2. Undertuluk
3. The existence of Lirathans and their general function in society*

*They needed more limits, both coded and documented. They sort of stopped being scary once it became very clear and obvious what they could do, and what they WERE doing on a regular basis. When Amos, played by NewbiePlayer who's only been playing since last Saturday, is telling Talia, played by 10+year veteran player, that Lirathans are all - what they were -, then something is wrong.

Perhaps random skills that rotated depending on the positions of the moons, or something. The concept of Lirathans is awesome. I just feel it could've been implemented in a way that would've packed more punch, with less grief from the rest of the playerbase.

[BadSkeelz]

Most of what I've heard of Lirathans (especially later ones) make them sound like plot-stifling bio-snooping wet blankets. I don't think they were gotten right. Are there any good logs of them?

Tuluk certainly offered a good antagonist and "Other" to the Allanaki side of the game world. But its content was evidently unsustainable. Either players couldn't get it to work "properly" (I always found the Tuluki mindset hard to summarize and inhabit) or it just required too much staff oversight. Probably both.

[Delirium]

Tuluk was built on the (likely unconscious) assumption that there would be good players inhabiting every stratum of society, without which the entire idea more or less collapsed in on itself. Tuluk required those players to represent its society correctly, and when those existed, you got a Golden Age. These Golden Ages were extraordinarily rare and I can think of only two times it happened in my tenure post-rebellion, though admittedly I spent a lot of time elsewhere.

Tuluk's fatal flaw was that the documentation was too detailed, and required too much of its playerbase.

[Riev]

Assuredly required too much staff oversight from a contingent of staffers that too-often stated that they were volunteers and don't always have time for Arm.

Tuluk required a lot more use of thinks and feels to justify your smiling face and/or acquiescence to requests from people you thought to be your lesser. Thinks and feels that, while helping you keep your character in line, are laborious and only help the staff that aren't watching, or the <other people> who probably don't care either.

There were too many soldiers on the streets for a city with legal crime. Nowhere to set up any sort of mugging.

Most of the apartments weren't just easily pick-able, they had drop-in entrances that any 0-day stumbling around could find.

They never felt "at war" with Allanak, insomuch as "keep them away". AoD would constantly send up scouting patrols, but the Legion just wanted to keep their land and thus never cared to go a few steps into Luir's.

Some of the RP was astonishing, but it required the back-room access that only OOC friendships or luck could provide. Even being an aide often meant you were less trusted than "that hunter who brings me stuff sometimes".

[HavokBlue]

At least one noble house was trying to hire guttersnipes and riff-raff and rogues as paid thugs and criminals (not Shadow Artists) but they never managed to last more than three days.

I think losing Undertuluk as a haven for illegal crime was a real shame. I know it was just mirroring the Labyrinth, and crime was 'legal' in Tuluk, but I always thought of it like Demolition Man. People CHOSE to live underground, away from the utopia of the surface world, because there they were free to choose. Tuluk told you how to eat, where to sleep, to smile and be friendly but duplicitous. You could be a criminal, so long as Big Brother is keyed in. Undertuluk allowed you to be a real criminal, fighting against the oppressors.

Then Shartists became a thing, and there wasn't room for anything otherwise, because a caste of all-knowing psionicists with an inherent need to control everything (lore wise, nothing against players) isn't good for illegal business.

Well, no, again, for the last 6-8 months of Tuluk's life there was a coded clan that was actively promoting and encouraging criminal roleplay outside the Shadow Artist system. Most players instantly banded together to ostracize said clan and literally no PCs lasted more than a few days except the leader of said clan.

There was also a PC-created group in the Warrens that did an excellent job exploring crime in Tuluk, but many players may not have been exposed to that group.

[650Booger]

I just had a showerthought on this topic.  what if staff opened up a rollcall for a sponsored tuluki spy/assassin.  the selected player would roll up a mundane PC in allanak, but with a background that says they are a Tuluki spy.  Staff would play the handlers, communicating and giving assignements via weekly reports.  this PC would act in the interests of tuluk, on the orders of staff instructions, but nobody else would know who/what they were (unless they were caught, yikes!).

[BadSkeelz]

I just had a showerthought on this topic.  what if staff opened up a rollcall for a sponsored tuluki spy/assassin.  the selected player would roll up a mundane PC in allanak, but with a background that says they are a Tuluki spy.  Staff would play the handlers, communicating and giving assignements via weekly reports.  this PC would act in the interests of tuluk, on the orders of staff instructions, but nobody else would know who/what they were (unless they were caught, yikes!).

People would suspect and PK every new character for a couple of weeks. It'd have to be a Secret Rolecall but even those I'm not sure of the survival rates.

There's nothing stopping you from rolling a northern-background assassin and making it your personal mission to raise hell for the Sun King, fortunately. Just got to hide the accent.

[lostinspace]

After the rollcall Staff could simply delay introducing the character a month or so, maybe line it up after a major RPT where a few players die.

I don't feel like I lost much with the removal of Tuluk other than the vendors/easy to reach plants. I played a couple characters up north before it was closed, it was amazing to me how much more empty it felt, but how I felt I was under constant surveillance and never got away with anything.

[Grapes]

Just before the closure of Tuluk was a very exciting time to play in Tuluk. IIRC it had been handed off to Rathustra and staff there were doing a really smash up job of keeping things lively. That may sound unreal, but it happened, and then, out of nowhere, closed. I'm unsure whether that was the right choice or not, it's not really my call to make because there was a lot I didn't, and still don't know. I just know the closure felt a bit, jarring.

[Aruven]

I just had a showerthought on this topic.  what if staff opened up a rollcall for a sponsored tuluki spy/assassin.  the selected player would roll up a mundane PC in allanak, but with a background that says they are a Tuluki spy.  Staff would play the handlers, communicating and giving assignments via weekly reports.  this PC would act in the interests of tuluk, on the orders of staff instructions, but nobody else would know who/what they were (unless they were caught, yikes!).

Lmao 

Things I think the game lost with tuluk's closure:

- Jihaen Templars (This is a storyline thing for me)

- Players

- The entire story of tuluk? It wasn't hard for me to buy into the history. I loved the release of the stories about the Sun-King or Tektolnes, or other obscure parts of the history. I think that fell off and just never picked back up. The old 'coming soon articles'. The dragon plots. Potential Alliances, potential wars. The in-between factions crawling together because of the might of a city state from one side or the other. Culture, the commoner doesn't have to bow to the highborn he liberated, its a cool edge to a society. A lot of unanswered history and opportunity to let the player-base build and expand. Learning/building more of the story. I'm not sure how to put it into one sentence and say: This was a loss for me in this regard.

But I joined the game after it was a hack n' slash mud, there were already plenty of those. I played armageddon because the stories blew me away.

- The RP that was provided for GMH organizing logistics and needs between two cities. I haven't played in a GMH house since Tuluk closed/hunter divisions closed so I don't know if that's a more exciting avenue now these days. I can only imagine the RP for Kurac has changed quite a bit now also.

- The city/tribal relations the north found itself involved in at any given time. I found it drastically different from Allanak. Allanak always seemed the occupy/crush everyone out while Tuluk seemed to be on a path like the old persian empire of cultural assimilation with a big brother obedience.

***

- People seem focused on the mechanics of Lirathans and how OP they were, despite the outcomes of the last few HRPTs involving tuluk, and despite the fact that the entire removal of that system/mechanic would have to effect OTHER CERTAIN Hierarchies in the game or they'll just be huge hypocrites if we're discussing power in the hands of the templaret.

Also, I wasn't playing in Tuluk at the very end but there were huge plans for a whole templaret revamp that had a lot of potential and seemed interesting. That might have been a response to the players on the Lirathan issue, but I cannot overstate at the moment, how overstated I think that issue is being made. You had every similar chance back in the day of a staff animating a black robe templar and just killing your noble if you were trying something dastardly in the south as you did a commoner getting swept up off the streets by a Lirathan in the north for the most part. I can understand with the game world NOW AS IS (I.E magick revamp) this topic being looked at again I suppose.

It looked like the city was going to go into some egyptian/mesopotamian age-like reformation and it was gearing up to be awesome. Not sure what happened but it went all mad max and the city closed. Maybe an avenue worth exploring.

The note about 'golden ages' in a particular RP area stands true for everywhere, not just Tuluk. There have been ages in both cities with very different feels based on who was in power.

[LucildaHunta]

That was really well said Aruven.

I just want to add, I'm still very leery of saying Tuluk was more RP centric. One, Tuluk and Allanak share the same playerbase. You don't start rp'ing in one place and stop in the other. Both cities are RP centric. It's really divisive...I don't like it. Division is the last thing the game needs. However two
cities are very much woven into the fabric of the game.

[ghanima]

I think the reduction to a single city-state MUD has removed something very important from the game. Most importantly was the ability to fully separate from your past character once they die. If I'm into city slicker roles, then Allanak is my only option right now. I don't want to play some outdoorsman living on the frontier just because I lost my city bound character but that's the only real way to get some separation from my previous character's life right now (by living in Red Storm or Luir's etc).

The decision to close Tuluk has been an interesting experiment in consolidation and when it was first announced I applauded it wholeheartedly. Even now, I think it was a good choice to close it and see how things go. But now enough time has gone by that we can say ok this is how things go. If there's a plan in the works for Tuluk, great. If there's not, then it's just hanging in limbo, unrepresented as the enormous (albeit currently virtual) monolithic force that it is. Sooner or later it needs closure, be that in the form of its complete and total destruction or fully reopening it or something in between.

Like other posters have stated, I think Tuluk tried too hard to define itself that it became overly defined. Anyone who played in the days of the Rebellion will remember that Tulukis were loud and brash. The whole subtlety thing was invented as part of the new identity once they were reopened. And players justifiably badmouthed the whole Tuluki subtlety thing because it was not only the opposite of the Tuluki norm (not that a culture can't change over time, just not that fast) but it stole the show. If anything Allanak would be more subtle, culturally speaking. We're talking about a culture that is openly corrupt and does not try to hide that it is deceitful. And the only way to succeed in such a brutal empire as Allanak's is to be subtle. A Rinth elf is subtle if it knows whats good for itself, a noble is subtle if they know how to manipulate others and get what they want. But suddenly you had situations where an artistic, or sneaky and delicately worded Naki was yelled at and told to stop being like a Northerner. There's no need to make Tuluk and Allanak the polar opposite of one another. It's fine if they are just enemies. It is in fact their similarities that probably make them enemies more than their differences in the first place.

So what's to be done? Lotta ideas thrown out so far. If it's destroyed in full, I'd hope there is some remnant loyalist group reminiscent (but not a complete rewrite) of the Rebellion. Gith are monsters. They are essentially orcs and goblins. There's no political exchange at all. But human to human enemies allows for things like: defectors, spies, and treaties. You could basically take what was so great of the Rebellion days and just keep it going endlessly without ever reopening full scale Tuluk as it once was. Alternatively, if it were reopened somehow the whole cultural aspect needs to be watered down. Maybe whatever has happened to them currently has resulted in a sort of cultural dilution. Whatever the case, if it's opened it needs to dial it down a little in order to be successful. That's my advice anyway.

Fun thread so far

[Veselka]

I think the reduction to a single city-state MUD has removed something very important from the game. Most importantly was the ability to fully separate from your past character once they die. If I'm into city slicker roles, then Allanak is my only option right now. I don't want to play some outdoorsman living on the frontier just because I lost my city bound character but that's the only real way to get some separation from my previous character's life right now (by living in Red Storm or Luir's etc).

The decision to close Tuluk has been an interesting experiment in consolidation and when it was first announced I applauded it wholeheartedly. Even now, I think it was a good choice to close it and see how things go. But now enough time has gone by that we can say ok this is how things go. If there's a plan in the works for Tuluk, great. If there's not, then it's just hanging in limbo, unrepresented as the enormous (albeit currently virtual) monolithic force that it is. Sooner or later it needs closure, be that in the form of its complete and total destruction or fully reopening it or something in between.

Like other posters have stated, I think Tuluk tried too hard to define itself that it became overly defined. Anyone who played in the days of the Rebellion will remember that Tulukis were loud and brash. The whole subtlety thing was invented as part of the new identity once they were reopened. And players justifiably badmouthed the whole Tuluki subtlety thing because it was not only the opposite of the Tuluki norm (not that a culture can't change over time, just not that fast) but it stole the show. If anything Allanak would be more subtle, culturally speaking. We're talking about a culture that is openly corrupt and does not try to hide that it is deceitful. And the only way to succeed in such a brutal empire as Allanak's is to be subtle. A Rinth elf is subtle if it knows whats good for itself, a noble is subtle if they know how to manipulate others and get what they want. But suddenly you had situations where an artistic, or sneaky and delicately worded Naki was yelled at and told to stop being like a Northerner. There's no need to make Tuluk and Allanak the polar opposite of one another. It's fine if they are just enemies. It is in fact their similarities that probably make them enemies more than their differences in the first place.

So what's to be done? Lotta ideas thrown out so far. If it's destroyed in full, I'd hope there is some remnant loyalist group reminiscent (but not a complete rewrite) of the Rebellion. Gith are monsters. They are essentially orcs and goblins. There's no political exchange at all. But human to human enemies allows for things like: defectors, spies, and treaties. You could basically take what was so great of the Rebellion days and just keep it going endlessly without ever reopening full scale Tuluk as it once was. Alternatively, if it were reopened somehow the whole cultural aspect needs to be watered down. Maybe whatever has happened to them currently has resulted in a sort of cultural dilution. Whatever the case, if it's opened it needs to dial it down a little in order to be successful. That's my advice anyway.

Fun thread so far

Really well written. I too fear that the separation between characters is gone, now that long-lived people mostly congregate in the same places. Most people just say 'suck it up', but I also hate to say, i've seen the quality of RP sort of decline in recent years, I think in part from this 'suck it up' attitude and general malaise. I've played other RPI's recently and been much more thrilled about the quality of RP there, I think because the players seem excited behind the PC to be playing the game. It feels like here, people are ho-hum sort of bored playing behind their PCs, and doing it just as a rote exercise.

I can see why Staff made the closure OOC -- it's something they can come back from. But I think as with many creative projects, one needs to commit fully or not at all. I particularly think the idea that some Tuluki's can re-enter the city and say Hi to friends and family was more than a little odd. If it had been shut completely, without a trace of entry, that would be far more mysterious and vague, and scary.

Tuluk reminds me now of 'Ravenholm' from Half Life 2, wherein no one goes to Ravenholm, and freaky things are going on there without people needing to view it or participate. To start, that would have been my posit -- No one goes to Tuluk. Not some people, special people go to Tuluk. It immediately robs the story/place of potential mystery and the petri dish quality of horror. What is brewing inside Tuluk that people haven't seen in years?

I would like for Tuluk to re-open, even in a destroyed state, but understand the impetus for closing it was Staff being stretched thin. From what I see, Staff is still stretched thin, even with this consolidation and closure of Tuluk, so I don't think re-opening it is a great idea empirically. If it were re-opened, it would need to be in a much simpler form, with way less detailed documentation and 'need to know' details.

[Riev]

At least one noble house was trying to hire guttersnipes and riff-raff and rogues as paid thugs and criminals (not Shadow Artists) but they never managed to last more than three days.

I think losing Undertuluk as a haven for illegal crime was a real shame. I know it was just mirroring the Labyrinth, and crime was 'legal' in Tuluk, but I always thought of it like Demolition Man. People CHOSE to live underground, away from the utopia of the surface world, because there they were free to choose. Tuluk told you how to eat, where to sleep, to smile and be friendly but duplicitous. You could be a criminal, so long as Big Brother is keyed in. Undertuluk allowed you to be a real criminal, fighting against the oppressors.

Then Shartists became a thing, and there wasn't room for anything otherwise, because a caste of all-knowing psionicists with an inherent need to control everything (lore wise, nothing against players) isn't good for illegal business.

Well, no, again, for the last 6-8 months of Tuluk's life there was a coded clan that was actively promoting and encouraging criminal roleplay outside the Shadow Artist system. Most players instantly banded together to ostracize said clan and literally no PCs lasted more than a few days except the leader of said clan.

There was also a PC-created group in the Warrens that did an excellent job exploring crime in Tuluk, but many players may not have been exposed to that group.

Oh, I know there were OPTIONS, but you were still beholden to living in and amongst Tulukis and under [PERSON HIRING THEM] and their rules. Undertuluk gave sort of a Haven where you could escape to, and hope that your boss didn't owe the Faithful for something. Hiring from inside Tuluk meant that if you sat at a bar, and the Templar suspected you of being in [secret group] you're already dead.

[sleepyhead]

Yeah. If you're going to keep Tuluk closed (even if there is an intention to maybe possibly reopen it some day) then remove the ability for characters to enter and leave. Make it completely closed and also have it be known that no one seems to be able to Way in or out, or perhaps the few messages that do get through are garbled and suggest bizarre occurrences or madness. Don't make it so that some people can enter Tuluk. And certainly don't make it so that those people can't even know OOCly what they ICly saw or heard. Then you can start hinting at weird goings on inside and make it all more atmospheric. Tuluk's closure can add to the lore instead of taking away, then.