Newest Karma Discussion

[650Booger]

Forward momentum on the Karma front.  I like these changes, although I see my chances of ever getting to play the coveted sorc and psion roles probably even further diminished.  Thanks to staff for volunteering their time and energy redoing the system, its probably not as fun as other things they might be doing.

hopefully soon karma reviews open back up!  amirite?

[sleepyhead]

Not that I'm able to apply for such roles, but I hope that when they say you can't play a psion or sorcerer without using their specific skills, they don't mean you have to immediately jump in and start using them. I like the idea of discovering/learning abilities over time, especially with sorcs, since according to the lore sorcery is learned rather than innate. The quest to learn sorcery could be an amazing plot, but I don't imagine it would be a quick process.

Since you can't actually have a non-sorc PC learn sorcery through IC events anymore as far as I know, I've always wanted to have a PC who technically has a sorcery subguild but ICly has to unlock that potential, since that seems to be the only path to learning sorcery IG. Now I'm afraid it's impossible to do even that :/ although maybe that could be set up with staff as well?

I'm also really eager to get karma reviews set up again. I know there's going to be a huge rush of karma review requests that come in and staff is probably none too eager to start sorting through them, but I've been trying for a long time to prove that I deserve my recently lost karma point back and I reeeeeally want the opportunity to inquire about it.

[Jihelu]

Not that I'm able to apply for such roles, but I hope that when they say you can't play a psion or sorcerer without using their specific skills, they don't mean you have to immediately jump in and start using them. I like the idea of discovering/learning abilities over time, especially with sorcs, since according to the lore sorcery is learned rather than innate. The quest to learn sorcery could be an amazing plot, but I don't imagine it would be a quick process.

Since you can't actually have a non-sorc PC learn sorcery through IC events anymore as far as I know, I've always wanted to have a PC who technically has a sorcery subguild but ICly has to unlock that potential, since that seems to be the only path to learning sorcery IG. Now I'm afraid it's impossible to do even that :/ although maybe that could be set up with staff as well?

I'm also really eager to get karma reviews set up again. I know there's going to be a huge rush of karma review requests that come in and staff is probably none too eager to start sorting through them, but I've been trying for a long time to prove that I deserve my recently lost karma point back and I reeeeeally want the opportunity to inquire about it.

Sorcerers start with their magick. So I'm guessing it's implied that either through:
A: Cosmic power/random events that are super magick (I've heard of this working as a background before)
B: You are an apprentice to another sorcerer.

"Since you can't actually have a non-sorc PC learn sorcery through IC events anymore as far as I know,"
I'm pretty sure you can try and get results if you find a sorcerer and learn from them.

But if you made a "I want to learn sorcery" character and made them a sorcerer you'd have the same problem elementalists who haven't manifested have. (removed to protect the innocent - seidhr)

[seidhr]

Yeah you guys are on the right track with why the decision was made on that front.

It was a discussion between allowing for that (sometimes) cool buildup RP to happen about an individual's magick or psionic abilities becoming awakened - or giving the entire world a potential adversary, while also respecting that when we have tons of people wanting to play these roles and keep having to turn them away because Joe-Blow-Sorc is sitting around in taverns and holding one of the coveted spots while also not really much with the role beyond what they could do as a vanilla character.

@Jihelu that's IC stuff, don't talk about it.

[Jihelu]

Yeah you guys are on the right track with why the decision was made on that front.

It was a discussion between allowing for that (sometimes) cool buildup RP to happen about an individual's magick or psionic abilities becoming awakened - or giving the entire world a potential adversary, while also respecting that when we have tons of people wanting to play these roles and keep having to turn them away because Joe-Blow-Sorc is sitting around in taverns and holding one of the coveted spots while also not really much with the role beyond what they could do as a vanilla character.

@Jihelu that's IC stuff, don't talk about it.

Sorry!

[sleepyhead]

Well, could a short build-up still be allowed?

[Jihelu]

Well, could a short build-up still be allowed?

I'm going to guess that they work somewhat closer to the way elementalists work in which case they don't have all their spells at start, not sure if this is meta info I imagine not basic skills work the same way, so there is a build up.

[sleepyhead]

Yeah, of course, but that's not what I mean.  I mean are you allowed to wait just a little bit before discovering your powers, even if you're not allowed to wait very long? Maybe players could be given a deadline to begin using them.

EDIT: Maybe this could even be set up with staff ahead of time, if they'd allow it. You could spec app this concept and be approved as an "extra" sorc or psi with the understanding that your PC is technically capable of developing these powers, but they won't be granted to you until there's another open slot, when and IF that happens. Then suddenly you wake up and they're on your skill list and you know you have a couple of weeks to figure out how to start working them into your RP. I dunno, it's kind of a clumsy and probably unnecessary solution, but I'm just looking for ways to make more interesting plot options available without the squatting issue.

[Jihelu]

Yeah, of course, but that's not what I mean.  I mean are you allowed to wait just a little bit before discovering your powers, even if you're not allowed to wait very long? Maybe players could be given a deadline to begin using them.

I imagine staff means more about people who would play a sorcerer like someone plays an unmanifested elementalist.

Going on years and years before manifesting and the like.
I'm sure if you start off knowing 'yer a wizard harry' they'll be fine, even if you 'suck' at it and go through your own ic learning.
Then again I'm not staff. I'm sure they'll comment on what they mean.

[sleepyhead]

Well, it's probably never going to affect me because I'm not sure if I'll ever have 3 karma, but I prefer playing out the "yer a wizard harry" thing IG and wish there was a way to figure out how to do that without having people greedily hogging coveted, limited roles they're not actually using.

[seidhr]

A short build up would probably be okay, but yes the gist of the rule change is that you should not not sit around unmanifested.  We'd rather have our sorcs be sorcs and our benders be benders.  Notice that the announcement does say that if you have something in mind, you can mention it in your special app.

[sleepyhead]

Thanks for all the answers!

Just one more:

If someone asked for say, a single psi skill in a spec app, would that be something that would require 3 karma? Would it count as far as the hard limit goes? Might it depend on the skill?

[seidhr]

Thanks for all the answers!

Just one more:

If someone asked for say, a single psi skill in a spec app, would that be something that would require 3 karma? Would it count as far as the hard limit goes? Might it depend on the skill?

That's not a question I can answer, it would have to be discussed amongst the staff.

[sleepyhead]

Understood. Thanks

[Miradus]

Forward momentum on the Karma front. 

Yeah. Like watching the bus you wanted to be on gain forward momentum as you chase after it.

Since I started this game it's been a constant procession of rolled back potential. You can play this in 2 more years ... oh wait ... we have completely redesigned everything and put you back at the bottom. And now we've pushed things back yet further. You're welcome.

[palomar]

Forward momentum on the Karma front. 

Yeah. Like watching the bus you wanted to be on gain forward momentum as you chase after it.

Since I started this game it's been a constant procession of rolled back potential. You can play this in 2 more years ... oh wait ... we have completely redesigned everything and put you back at the bottom. And now we've pushed things back yet further. You're welcome.

You need 2 Karma (3 Karma in the old system) to be able to play every available race/guild except psionicist and sorcerer. I don't see how that's rolled back potential? Removal of full magicker guilds, Nilazi, Elkrans and Drovians have nothing to do with the Karma system as such (and yes, I miss them too).

[evilcabbage]

since when did you start back at the bottom?

[tapas]

Please respect players who want to play the role their way.

Insisting players use skills that are dangerous and difficult to use is pointless and silly. Getting sniffed is already easy enough.

[evilcabbage]

sure, respect them if they want to play the role their way, but if they're -just- playing a mundane who's sitting on a bunch of super special skills that other people want to use, i think it's within staff's right to draw a line and go "play a mundane if you're going to play a mundane".

[tapas]

I'd be fine with a rule that means I need to manifest and be active by 3 months. But this policy just means I'm going to get ragged on by staff because they don't like how I play.

[evilcabbage]

then play a mundane.

[ghanima]

I'd be fine with a rule that means I need to manifest and be active by 3 months. But this policy just means I'm going to get ragged on by staff because they don't like how I play.

Yeah like the cabbage says just play a mundane, problem solved.

Or take a step back, chillax, and understand that staff aren't going to jump down your throat for not casting a spell in your first week or some other super arbitrary super short period of time. We don't need to institute strict guidelines that dictate the exact moment you've "crossed the line", be it 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc. It's simple enough to me. Don't sit in the role and leave it unused for months on end.

[650Booger]

i think the psion/sorc should be given enough time to develop a cover story, like joining the arm or getting an aide job or something, before beginning use of their skills.  that should't take longer than a week or two.

[Vex]

Forward momentum on the Karma front. 

Yeah. Like watching the bus you wanted to be on gain forward momentum as you chase after it.

Since I started this game it's been a constant procession of rolled back potential. You can play this in 2 more years ... oh wait ... we have completely redesigned everything and put you back at the bottom. And now we've pushed things back yet further. You're welcome.

This is the only game I have ever played, where you're required to sit around and do things that barely interest you, for RL years, before you're even considered good enough for the things, that are actually interesting to you. Now, you can't even ask for karma, because that was closed down, for an indeterminate time, so some people enjoy all the toys in the toy box, while anyone new, gets nothing.

The whole thing, it stinks, it really does.

[Hauwke]

If it takes you an RL year to get good enough to be even slightly useful. You are doing things horrendously wrong. Join the Byn, be useful in less than a month of decent playtimes.

Want to be useful socially? Oh, there is this thing called the Atrium you can now join. Oh, but you rolled an elf. Yeah who wanted to be useful anyway because you are scum.


Things take a scope of weeks in this game folks. Not years.

[Miradus]

You need 2 Karma (3 Karma in the old system) to be able to play every available race/guild except psionicist and sorcerer. I don't see how that's rolled back potential? Removal of full magicker guilds, Nilazi, Elkrans and Drovians have nothing to do with the Karma system as such (and yes, I miss them too).

I had 2, could play everything I wanted to and special app most everything else that was interesting.

Then the big karma change, I went to "1" and lost everything I liked about the options which had previously required 2. Then for MONTHS there's no karma reviews, no possible way to get back to 2, and now there's a limit on how high you can spec app up.

So yeah. That's rolling back the potential.

I haven't had a lot of free time lately, but when I get a little bit, I feel very "meh" about playing.

[Hauwke]

A lack of karma shouldnt stop you from playing the game.

Some people need to step back and play a purely normal character every once in a while instead of playing special snowflake guy #30 in a row.

[tapas]

I'd be fine with a rule that means I need to manifest and be active by 3 months. But this policy just means I'm going to get ragged on by staff because they don't like how I play.

Yeah like the cabbage says just play a mundane, problem solved.

Or take a step back, chillax, and understand that staff aren't going to jump down your throat for not casting a spell in your first week or some other super arbitrary super short period of time. We don't need to institute strict guidelines that dictate the exact moment you've "crossed the line", be it 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc. It's simple enough to me. Don't sit in the role and leave it unused for months on end.

I'm happy to play a mundane. I'm just speaking from past experience.

If it takes you an RL year to get good enough to be even slightly useful. You are doing things horrendously wrong. Join the Byn, be useful in less than a month of decent playtimes.

Want to be useful socially? Oh, there is this thing called the Atrium you can now join. Oh, but you rolled an elf. Yeah who wanted to be useful anyway because you are scum.

Things take a scope of weeks in this game folks. Not years.

This is the reality of at least one of the current high level classes. I'm in agreement that this class should be brought up to a higher baseline so they can do cool stuff earlier. But in my experience, joining the byn or the atrium and hoping for the best hasn't been helpful.

[sleepyhead]

I'm sure nobody's happy about taking away people's karma options. Staff had a tough problem to solve with how to shrink/revamp the karma scale to make the higher end options more accessible while not screwing too many people. I think they did the best they could. I got quite a bit taken away from me, too, but once they bring back karma reviews, I imagine things will start to feel better.

[Kankfly]

I think these changes work if karma review is open again.

Do staff have plans for it?

[Lizzie]

Forward momentum on the Karma front. 

Yeah. Like watching the bus you wanted to be on gain forward momentum as you chase after it.

Since I started this game it's been a constant procession of rolled back potential. You can play this in 2 more years ... oh wait ... we have completely redesigned everything and put you back at the bottom. And now we've pushed things back yet further. You're welcome.

You need 2 Karma (3 Karma in the old system) to be able to play every available race/guild except psionicist and sorcerer. I don't see how that's rolled back potential? Removal of full magicker guilds, Nilazi, Elkrans and Drovians have nothing to do with the Karma system as such (and yes, I miss them too).

Prior to this change, I had enough karma to app a psionicist and sorcerer. I might even have played one or both of these, back when it was an option   Now, even though it's possible I might have actually played one of those in the past as an allowable special app option, it is not currently an option for me at all. I have not been docked karma, it's just how the rearrangement ended up. It didn't bother me AT ALL that my full whiran karma was now split, and half of it was in the new karma 3, while the other is in karma 2. It didn't bother me, because I had no interest in playing any of the magick subguilds so I didn't care if I had karma for them or not.

However...I did care about being able to play a psionicist or sorcerer. Now, I can't do that either because my karma 2 option doesn't allow for it, where my previous karma placement did.

I feel that having only 3 karma "points" is not a great idea in practice. Perhaps 5 would've been more useful, and then provided more opportunity for people who have already been playing these "spec app only" roles, to continue being eligible to apply for them.

[sleepyhead]

I lost a karma point, which I deserved, taking me from 6 to 5 karma. It was okay. All I lost was a few high-power magicker roles. I still could have technically applied for sorc or psi, once I felt I'd earned some trust back. Then they took away karma reviews right after I got docked. That was okay, too, because it wasn't supposed to be for very long and I thought that by the time I felt ready to put in a request, it'd be back. Then when the new system came along I was given 2 karma, whereas if I hadn't lost the point I would have had 3. That was okay. I lost several more of my available roles, but I could still spec app for what I really wanted to play every now and then, even though spec apps were rarer now.

Now with this two announcement I've lost 2 more roles available via spec app, and the moratorium on karma reviews is still going strong. I know it's silly, but I feel like I've been punished multiple times for the thing I did. Losing that point wasn't a big deal to me at the time--I cared 1000% more about the force storage of my character--but now it feels like the docking of a single karma point became a very serious punishment after the fact.

All that being said, I know it's a tough choice staff had in front of them. The karma system badly needed a revamp. The scale needed to be shrunk and there needed to be a point buy system, and somebody was going to feel screwed by the change. I'm not too sad. I just want karma reviews back so I can feel like I at least have a chance to get back to where I was. I also appreciate that opening the karma reviews back up is going to be a huge pain in the ass for staff as everyone puts in their requests at the same time for something that generally takes a lot of review and discussion staffside. I wish I had a good solution for that.

I guess the tl/dr version is that while I also feel deflated by the karma changes, I understand why it was inevitable that some people would feel they got the short end of the stick, and I sympathize with staff trying to make the hard decisions.

[Riev]

A lack of karma shouldnt stop you from playing the game.

Some people need to step back and play a purely normal character every once in a while instead of playing special snowflake guy #30 in a row.

First. You're rude to assume everyone people who dislike a change are a snowflakes.

Second: A lack of karma SHOULDN'T stop someone from playing the game, but it does. I have no dog in the fight, because I've always been a middling player at my absolute best. However. This game has TRIED to become easier for new players to get into the fun, but in fact has unfortunately held them back at numerous turns.

I understand the need for the change. I don't necessarily disagree with it. However, people are allowed to dislike a change and explain why they dislike it. All of you who are saying the "complainers" don't have a say are, honestly, not being good people.

[Miradus]

I don't think, "Oh, I only have one karma ... I guess I won't play today."

No, it's a lot of things similar.

I only have one karma so I have fewer options (even fewer mundanes) than I used to. I've been in most of the clans now and have figured out I really only like a couple of them. In most of the roles I could find myself in, I've got to put up with a lot of crap from people whose attitudes and styles I can't stand and even then I'm only ever going to rise so high in the organization. I feel like I've peaked with what I can do as a character.

And while I'm considering all those things, I eventually say, "Screw it, I'll go play Rimworld or M&B or something else where I don't have a ton of limitations imposed on me."

I guess it's just burnout on Armageddon. But it's one of the factors influencing why I don't play much at all right now, and I bet it's also why a lot of other people have stopped as well.

[seidhr]

I think these changes work if karma review is open again.

Do staff have plans for it?

Yes, at some point karma reviews will re-open. (I don't know when)

We've still got the guild revamp to get through.

[sleepyhead]

The guild revamp has to be complete before karma reviews will reopen? I don't want to complain, but that seems excessive, and the longer karma reviews are closed, the bigger the overwhelming rush of people sending in karma reviews as soon as they're reopened will be.

[seidhr]

The guild revamp has to be complete before karma reviews will reopen? I don't want to complain, but that seems excessive, and the longer karma reviews are closed, the bigger the overwhelming rush of people sending in karma reviews as soon as they're reopened will be.

It's not a question of how many people are going to send in requests; we're going to get slammed no matter what and we know that.  It's a question of how all the guilds and subguilds will map onto the karma options matrix and what belongs where, and what corresponding level of karma should correlate to each level.

In the meantime, anyone with at least 1 karma has access to all mundane combinations (save mul) either natively or via special application, and those roles should always make up the lion's share of the player population.  They have access to all but what... four(?) of the elementalist subguilds too, in the same sense.

[sleepyhead]

I mean, yeah, I know I'm being a privileged whiny little snot for complaining about not having the absolute maximum karma available while other people are stuck at zero, but it really does seem like things keep getting taken away. It would feel a lot better if there was at least a chance for advancement.

I mean, we were recently told that the moratorium would be lifted soon and to watch out for it, and now I'm hearing that no, another huge overhaul has to be completed first, and who knows when that'll be. It seems like everyone is stuck where they're at for the foreseeable future. I know your hands are kind of tied because there are big changes coming that will further affect karma, but it's just discouraging is all. It'd be nice if there was some bone you could throw to us greedy ungrateful snowflakes because even though I know it shouldn't, it does sting.

[seidhr]

#worldssmallestfiddle

[Riev]

#worldssmallestfiddle

... I'm truly at a staggered loss for words.

[Grapes]

I'm a little saddened a number of the cooler extended subguilds have been yanked out of my range, but that shouldn't be a prooblem once karma reviews are reinstated. Playing a desert elf with extended options will now range you roughly what it would take to play psion/sorc/mul. I, too, understand the need for making things more accessible to newer players, and salute the effort, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't perceive a few sneaky issues hiding in the shadows with the implementation. That said, I'm, personally, fine with playing vanilla roles or weaker extended subguilds, this may not be the case for everyone, however.

I wonder if it would or wouldn't be wise to drop the 1 karma requirement to play a desert elf? Considering the scale of investment required to gain a single point under the proposed new system, this would make sense to me, and would make it less taxing to get extended subs.

[Delirium]

I've had enormous amounts of fun playing low karma/mundane within the past few years. More so than I ever did with all but one of my non mundane pcs.

In so many ways, the game is what you make of it.

/shrug

[sleepyhead]

I hoped that showing a little self-awareness would make me and my posts less of a joke, but I guess not. I wasn't just talking about my own spoiled self, but was also trying to advocate for newer players with less karma that do actually feel discouraged about the game and their progress.

I dunno, I had hoped I was able to convey that I wasn't just making a bunch of entitled demands and not understanding where staff was coming from. I don't think it was necessary to mock me for it even if my problems aren't that important, and even if playing the game is rewarding no matter how much karma you have, if any (and it totally is.)

[seidhr]

I'm a little saddened a number of the cooler extended subguilds have been yanked out of my range, but that shouldn't be a prooblem once karma reviews are reinstated. Playing a desert elf with extended options will now range you roughly what it would take to play psion/sorc/mul. I, too, understand the need for making things more accessible to newer players, and salute the effort, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't perceive a few sneaky issues hiding in the shadows with the implementation. That said, I'm, personally, fine with playing vanilla roles or weaker extended subguilds, this may not be the case for everyone, however.

I wonder if it would or wouldn't be wise to drop the 1 karma requirement to play a desert elf? Considering the scale of investment required to gain a single point under the proposed new system, this would make sense to me, and would make it less taxing to get extended subs.

That first karma point will still be reasonably easy to get.  It's just to make sure people have some vague idea of what the world is about before we let them play a role that has restrictions and expectations.  An argument can be made that dwarves should also be 1 karma for the same reasons (and the fact that I've probably rejected about 500 bearded dwarf mithril smith PCs from new players since joining staff) but we don't want to be too limiting, and the restrictions for IC behavior on d-elves are stronger than dwarves.

[lostinspace]

Yeah. Like watching the bus you wanted to be on gain forward momentum as you chase after it.

Since I started this game it's been a constant procession of rolled back potential. You can play this in 2 more years ... oh wait ... we have completely redesigned everything and put you back at the bottom. And now we've pushed things back yet further. You're welcome.

It's really frusturating for sure, and probably my greatest issue with this game.

[seidhr]

I hoped that showing a little self-awareness would make me and my posts less of a joke, but I guess not. I wasn't just talking about my own spoiled self, but was also trying to advocate for newer players with less karma that do actually feel discouraged about the game and their progress.

I dunno, I had hoped I was able to convey that I wasn't just making a bunch of entitled demands and not understanding where staff was coming from. I don't think it was necessary to mock me for it even if my problems aren't that important, and even if playing the game is rewarding no matter how much karma you have, if any (and it totally is.)

I'm not mocking you.  I get that it's a frustrating process and so does staff as a whole.  When everything is finished it's going to be pretty cool, I promise!

[Grapes]

I'm a little saddened a number of the cooler extended subguilds have been yanked out of my range, but that shouldn't be a prooblem once karma reviews are reinstated. Playing a desert elf with extended options will now range you roughly what it would take to play psion/sorc/mul. I, too, understand the need for making things more accessible to newer players, and salute the effort, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't perceive a few sneaky issues hiding in the shadows with the implementation. That said, I'm, personally, fine with playing vanilla roles or weaker extended subguilds, this may not be the case for everyone, however.

I wonder if it would or wouldn't be wise to drop the 1 karma requirement to play a desert elf? Considering the scale of investment required to gain a single point under the proposed new system, this would make sense to me, and would make it less taxing to get extended subs.

That first karma point will still be reasonably easy to get.  It's just to make sure people have some vague idea of what the world is about before we let them play a role that has restrictions and expectations.  An argument can be made that dwarves should also be 1 karma for the same reasons (and the fact that I've probably rejected about 500 bearded dwarf mithril smith PCs from new players since joining staff) but we don't want to be too limiting, and the restrictions for IC behavior on d-elves are stronger than dwarves.

It would be funnier, but more problematic, just to put "skill mithrilsmithing" in their list, rip off their beard, and turn them loose to discover the harsh reality of the situation. Templars would take them prisoner, torture them into revealing the name and location of their homeland, and then tromp off to raze it to the ground.

[sleepyhead]

Oh, good! I'm so glad to hear it, seidhr, and thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure if you were joking with me or at me...you know how the Internet is with tone.

I'm honestly not here to accuse staff, be antagonistic, throw tantrums, or make demands. I'm just trying to help brainstorm what I see as a problem, which is that people are feeling like they've been set back and yet can't progress to where they were before, and they don't know when that progress will come back. People who have done nothing wrong (a group that I'm not going to pretend includes myself) feel like they're being punished. I know staff and players want the same things when it comes down to it, and sometimes tough decisions have to be made that are going to inevitably upset some people. So I totally empathize. I'm just seeing if we can bounce around some possible compromises in the meantime before the payoff finally happens. If it's not possible, that's fine, but it was worth a try bringing it up IMO.

[evilcabbage]

#worldssmallestfiddle

#worldsmallesttuba

let's get a band going here.


but aside from all that, i dunno, i've always felt that dwarves were in the middle ground between 0 and 1 karma because the focus is literally such a difficult thing to play, and people don't seem to understand that until they get into the role, where they come up with the absolute most basic focus that allows them to play their monster strength human.

i also hated seeing half giants played like muls, or super power humans, but when i see stuff like that i usually send complaints anyways.

the karma review will come back, and ye of little faith will be rewarded for patience.

or you'll be absorbed into my growing hivemind of cabbages.

[Grapes]

#worldssmallestfiddle

#worldsmallesttuba

let's get a band going here.


but aside from all that, i dunno, i've always felt that dwarves were in the middle ground between 0 and 1 karma because the focus is literally such a difficult thing to play, and people don't seem to understand that until they get into the role, where they come up with the absolute most basic focus that allows them to play their monster strength human.

i also hated seeing half giants played like muls, or super power humans, but when i see stuff like that i usually send complaints anyways.

the karma review will come back, and ye of little faith will be rewarded for patience.

or you'll be absorbed into my growing hivemind of cabbages.

Dwarves don't seem that hard to play, but then again, I may have been Doing It Wrong. It's pretty straightforward on the surface, focus is everything... what does, or does not relate to your focus, and how, I would suppose, depends on the wisdom of your dwarf and your willingness to link something slightly unrelated to your focus in, but so long as, at the end of the day, the focus is the priority, I don't see the difficulty.

[Veselka]

#worldssmallestfiddle

Optics, bro.

What's the benefit behind belittling a player for having questions or expressing themselves, other than to shut down conversation and pat yourself on the back for being right?

It astounds me that Producers of this game allow others on Staff who don't have great bedside manners to interact with the playerbase in this fashion. Just get Adhira to answer questions like these and be done with it, she can actually see both sides and give measured responses.

[Armaddict]

While normally I'd agree that staff snark is no bueno, I -would- like to note that the sentence before is literally:

It'd be nice if there was some bone you could throw to us greedy ungrateful snowflakes because even though I know it shouldn't, it does sting.

Read that carefully, and while the presentation of the #worldssmallestfiddle might be uncouth, it's kinda well earned.  Saying something hurt your feelings even though it shouldn't have and asking for recompense in the same sentence is weird.

[Grapes]

#worldssmallestfiddle

Optics, bro.

What's the benefit behind belittling a player for having questions or expressing themselves, other than to shut down conversation and pat yourself on the back for being right?

It astounds me that Producers of this game allow others on Staff who don't have great bedside manners to interact with the playerbase in this fashion. Just get Adhira to answer questions like these and be done with it, she can actually see both sides and give measured responses.

I doubt that was Seidhr's intent. Obviously this issue has already been clarified. No need to stir the pot. Staff are allowed to have a sense of humor, right? It was obviously a joking reply to a joking post, and something got lost in the text.

[Veselka]

Intent has nothing to do with how you say things.

Consider the following:

"I see what you're saying and we'll take it into consideration."

compared to

"#worldssmallestfiddle".

It's a no brainer.

Remember that Staff have a 'unified front' they need to uphold. Optics in this sense are about paying attention to how you are perceived, before positing what could ostensibly be considered "Staff Position". Potentially belittling a player, especially if it's completely irrelevant and not necessary, yields very little. It seems that Seidhr is studying from the Nessalin Camp of how to deal with the playerbase, rather than the 1000% more effective Adhira Camp.

[sleepyhead]

While normally I'd agree that staff snark is no bueno, I -would- like to note that the sentence before is literally:

It'd be nice if there was some bone you could throw to us greedy ungrateful snowflakes because even though I know it shouldn't, it does sting.

Read that carefully, and while the presentation of the #worldssmallestfiddle might be uncouth, it's kinda well earned.  Saying something hurt your feelings even though it shouldn't have and asking for recompense in the same sentence is weird.

I guess I was just going for cheeky hyper-self-awareness. I figured the response might be something like, "Why are you complaining? You have 2 karma and thus have access to almost all karma options." So I wanted to acknowledge that and get that out of the way so it couldn't be used to shut me down without a response, but I probably went too far with the self-deprecation and ended up getting exactly what I set out to avoid.

[Armaddict]

I understood it.  I happen to disagree that now is the best time for everyone to be evaluated and given more or less options.  We just flattened it out, we have more changes incoming, and the 'big losses' as far as karma aren't included in the change.

But this is also from a player who is continually frustrated by how much the playerbase seems to view the karma system as a stepping stone of 'What I want to play' vs 'Forced achievement unlocking characters'.  My response wouldn't have been -that-, but I can also understand the desire to say 'Tough'.

I don't approve of snark.  I just think this is a case where it's being fastened onto and attacked for no reason other than it being trendy to do.  Our staff hasn't had a good handle on GDB responses pretty much since Nyr's time, so I prefer to keep the 'staff post critique' to places where the bad communique is actually revealing something bad.  Not an...entirely predictable, and at least to some degree, sensible reaction, where we're actually just nitpicking over proper behavior rather than an actual injustice.

[Veselka]

That's sad. People just expect Staff to react/act in this way, so it's alright?

Staff no longer need to commit some 'grand injustice'. This smug sort of dismissal seems to be intrinsic to some of their attitudes and outlooks towards this game and the people that play it.

I don't think it's trendy to express yourself, or express disbelief in someone acting in a position of authority to belittle your position just because they can. If anything, it's trendy to be a bull in a china shop, these days.

[Armaddict]

Yeah.  We should all overreact constantly to even the smallest slights because that will fix it.

[sleepyhead]

I dunno, Seidhr said he didn't mean it that way and his next post was good-natured and positive. I disagree with Armaddict that I was basically asking to get a snarky dismissal; I went out of my way to be as understanding and empathetic of staff's work on this as possible, and even if I'm totally wrong about this being a subject worth discussing, and even if I went too far with the spoiled brat talk, I don't think that means I deserve to be cut down to size. But I doubt there is anyone here who hasn't made their share of tone mistakes on the Internet. If Seidhr really meant to put me down there would be no need to reassure me that he didn't intend to be hurtful.

[Veselka]

Yeah.  We should all overreact constantly because that will fix it.

Conversely, I suppose we should remain silent and keep our opinions to ourselves.

[Armaddict]

Yeah.  We should all overreact constantly because that will fix it.

Conversely, I suppose we should remain silent and keep our opinions to ourselves.

Never said that.  I said fixating on meaningless content doesn't contribute anything.  The entire GDB community is, for the most part, filled with random bouts of toxicity and snap judgments.  I filter it all out just the same.  In this case, even with my admission of it being uncouth, it didn't make me suddenly point at an expressed opinion and think less of it.  It didn't impact anything.  It did express an idea that I'm okay with, which is 'Tough, we can't accomodate everything.'  Arguing and debating about actual content is useful.  Arguing and debating about someone saying something in a way you don't approve of is an easy trap to fall into, but a trap nonetheless (none of us are immune; I only chimed in because it was garnering so much attention despite being...-so- minor.)

Swinging things around to the actual topic, since this one is losing its focus (blame me if you want, even if it's just responding to several posts that were already derailed):

Can we get some sort of affirmation that someone playing their sorcerer or mindbender role and keeping in steady contact with staff will not be force retired out of the blue if they're laying too low?  Is there -any- chance that we could get hat tips from staff on healthy ways to fulfill the need to antagonize within the game, in order to avoid that inevitable lull where you don't really -have- a next move to make and are waiting?  Basically...using skills just for the sake of using them is a behavior that has -long- been disapproved of under the watch of staff.  A fresh character often doesn't have real enemies or true interests yet.  Can they get information on where they are most likely to contribute well to the game, even if incredibly vague?

[seidhr]

Soccer Announcer:  "And Seidhr goes for the snarky hashtag, yes!  He's done it again!  What a rebel!"

At least one GDB'er: 
https://streamable.com/4zmvo

I'm kidding again!  It's me!  Being that guy!  Hope you won't lose any sleep over it!

[Veselka]

Soccer Announcer:  "And Seidhr goes for the snarky hashtag, yes!  He's done it again!  What a rebel!"

At least one GDB'er: 
https://streamable.com/4zmvo

I'm kidding again!  It's me!  Being that guy!  Hope you won't lose any sleep over it!

I guess doubling down is one way to go.

[Armaddict]

Oh gawd, I'm an enabler.  Burn me at the stake.

NOW ANSWER MAH QUESTION BEFORE I BURY YOU ALIVE IN A BOX.

[evilcabbage]

LOL that poor guy.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Eats popcorn

[Grapes]

#triggered

I think many have been conditioned to react in knee-jerk fashion at any snark, even if it's a gentle ribbing. It's understandable, but it's best to give the benefit of the doubt until you see snark levels go past a certain point. Not all snark is bad, or cruel-natured and indicative of an extreme negative view of someone else... Let's just take our foot off the gas and realize that pouncing angrily is counter-productive.

[seidhr]

#triggered

I think many have been conditioned to react in knee-jerk fashion at any snark, even if it's a gentle ribbing. It's understandable, but it's best to give the benefit of the doubt until you see snark levels go past a certain point. Not all snark is bad, or cruel-natured and indicative of an extreme negative view of someone else... Let's just take our foot off the gas and realize that pouncing angrily is counter-productive.

There u go being rational.
#buzzkill 

[evilcabbage]

and i was having fun watching people get mad because someone wanted to make a little joke.

damnit.

back to our regularly scheduled release notes discussion.

[Grapes]

and i was having fun watching people get mad because someone wanted to make a little joke.

damnit.

back to our regularly scheduled release notes discussion.

If you want to be a dickhole, might I recommend the "Love is War" thread, with Hatsune Miku

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmX5cnQ1YAg

[Riev]

and i was having fun watching people get mad because someone wanted to make a little joke.

damnit.

back to our regularly scheduled release notes discussion.

The time for levity is, typically, not in the middle of someone feeling persecuted or attacked. Whether the persecution or attacks are real are irrelevant.

I'm interested to see where this ends up, as the game has a history of removing options now, for the promise of more options later, but later takes years. Everything done for a good reason, but staff tend to jump the gun to try and revitalize discussion and interest in the game, and in so doing alienate and, despite the good humor intended, ridicule their playerbase.

Maybe the guild revamp will be cool! I made a warrior 2 years ago because I heard there was a guild revamp coming. Now you're taking away options in the promise that the revamp REALLY IS COMING. I feel like we may see Half-Life 3 first.

[Miradus]

People in power have a special responsibility to watch what they say.

A joke from a coworker is different from one from your boss. In the same way that a comment expressing sexual interest is different from a guy in a bar as opposed from the cop who just pulled you over.

Being a volunteer here changes nothing. It's still a position of power over people, if they still wish to play the game. They decide they don't want to play anymore, your power over them vanishes completely.

While Seidhr has a decent reputation for being friendly (at least with me), Armageddon staff IN GENERAL are known for being dicks. You can argue that is all in the past with past staff if you want, but you can't change the fact that there's a lot of negative reviews on TMC stating that and AN ENTIRE FORUM which comes up first in the Google search with thread after thread discussing Arm staff dickery and providing examples. So real or perceived, the impression is out there and you can't reel it back in.

Go read the reviews on TMC and try to visualize the new player who has read those reviews but then decided to give the game a try anyway stumbling across these "joking" posts. It's going to validate everything negative they've heard before they ever get a chance to see you for a good guy and they're going to leave.

[ShaLeah]

I'm gonna keep playing like I play because special apps, that's why. Even if I end up like THIS which I have many many times in the past. I can't tell you how much I cried when I got my account notes. Raged like a mofo. Every time. I stopped asking for them.

I love the changes in karma very much. I am confident the staff will give those people playing the two guilds-that-shall-not-be-named a chance to get into the groove. Not everyone can be an <insert veteran players who wins the game by skill grinding the fuck our of every skill on their tree until they're all at master> they know that. The role has to be taken into consideration, as is the player. These people aren't tyrants. The IG overlords are.


A good way to think about these things is to tell yourself, if the shoe fits wear it but if it's YOUR shoe in the lost and found someone up there in Immland is gonna let you know.

[TheWanderer]

If people just put half of the pent-up nerd aggression they have into the game (instead of, say, arbitrary comments on the GDB), maybe they'd stop desperately yearning for special apps. Or float the peak population above 29 players with some actual intrigue.

Regardless, I'd have put these roles farther out of reach to begin with. The majority of you have never been closer to a psion or a sorcerer role than you are now, so it's just kind of odd to me to see so much ado about nothing. This is ultimately a good change.

[LucildaHunta]

When did the game become about special apps and karma anyway? This segment of discussion makes it seem like it is.

[seidhr]

Armageddon staff IN GENERAL are known for being dicks

Super constructive post dude.

The majority of you have never been closer to a psion or a sorcerer role than you are now, so it's just kind of odd to me to see so much ado about nothing. This is ultimately a good change.

The first sentence is 100% true.  Whether it's good or not, we don't know yet.  ;-)

[ShaLeah]

The majority of you have never been closer to a psion or a sorcerer role than you are now

https://media.giphy.com/media/ndKWMoPb2jSlG/giphy.gif

A good way to think about these things is to tell yourself, if the shoe fits wear it but if it's YOUR shoe in the lost and found someone up there in Immland  TheWanderer is gonna let you know.

[Armaddict]

When did the game become about special apps and karma anyway? This segment of discussion makes it seem like it is.

That was my concern with the earlier posts before the derail.  But I wasn't posting until all this shummigub (made up word, pretty cool huh) about mean people.

Go read the reviews on TMC and try to visualize the new player who has read those reviews but then decided to give the game a try anyway stumbling across these "joking" posts. It's going to validate everything negative they've heard before they ever get a chance to see you for a good guy and they're going to leave.

Those reviews, and things similar, have been there for 20 years.  Staff has always been the number one complaint of the game.  Sure, there was a several year period where staff were more actively trying to combat that, but it got thrown in their face...though arguably, that was because some staff had a really messed up vision of exclusion for the game to move towards.  Exclusion bad...not in terms of what you can and can't play (again, this has always been an imposed limit; it's not a personal one, it's a game oriented one.  Those roles simply require more.)  Any new player is going to have the same staff complaint the moment they ask for a few things and get turned down on them, just like everyone else does.

Armageddon staff IN GENERAL are known for being dicks

Super constructive post dude.

#worldssmallestfiddle

[sleepyhead]

It's a thread about the changes that have specifically been made to special apps (and indirectly, karma.) Of course people are going to be expressing their opinions about that, especially those who hold strong opinions about them. That doesn't mean they think that's all there is to the game.

[LucildaHunta]

I know what the thread is about and I know what strong opinions are. I'm pointing out that when people have strong opinions and strong opinions are based on things people care about. So it begs the question.

[sleepyhead]

I didn't mean to be condescending. My point is that that there are plenty of people who don't care about this. You are hearing from those that do care, and there are always bound to be some. That doesn't mean that the general perception is that the game is about karma and special apps. It doesn't even mean that we who are discussing this think that the game is about karma and special apps.

[LucildaHunta]

It was food for thought, not really directed at you. Although a "few" people feeling that way out of a pkayerbase....sorry, playerbase of roughly 30-40 numerically is a large portion of players. That actually makes me kind of sad when I think about it. 30-40% of the players at any given time couldn't possibly only care about playing the most powerful coded options possible could they?

[sleepyhead]

Is the playerbase really that low? I thought that was just the amount of people that tend to be logged in at a given time. And again, no, I don't "only" care about karma or special apps, and no one else has given me that impression, either. I would be SHOCKED if anyone here discussing this matter only cared about that. Even people who say they're discouraged enough to feel like they don't really want to play have other issues with the game besides just this. Your assessment is a huge exaggeration. "I'm upset about this" doesn't mean "This is literally the only thing I care about and the game is trash to me without it."

[seidhr]

There's closer to 150 or 200 active players I think.  Naturally they aren't online all at the same time.

[LucildaHunta]

I'm upset about this, which in this case means not being able to play codedly powerful characters, kinda does mean what I care about the most in this game is karma and special apps. Damned near nakedly too just saying, if you want to go in circles about that, I can do it all day too. Nobody is going to admit they only play the game to play codedly powerful characters are they?

And again, I'm not directing this at you. It's food for thought about the game and how we're playing it, but I can only give my opinion based on other people's opinion because that's what a discussion board is for. But if it's a I'm the vocal minority board, don't disagree with me because I'm entitled to my opinion board STFU!!! I'll bow back out and go back to posting only in the clan forums and occasionally the ooc forum.

[sleepyhead]

OK, I feel like this is kind of fruitless, but I just don't see how being upset about a change means that's all you care about. Some people were upset about food spoilage code but I doubt they play the game just to hoard food.

[Miradus]

OK, I feel like this is kind of fruitless, but I just don't see how being upset about a change means that's all you care about. Some people were upset about food spoilage code but I doubt they play the game just to hoard food.

Don't even try to defend your position. It's not worth it.

It's a completely bullshit statement to claim that because we're upset about one aspect then that's all we care about. It's a combination of ad hominem and ad absurdum in an attempt to shut down the discussion.

How about I counter that with my own bullshit statement?

The people who are telling us to relax about this are the ones who have enough karma to do anything in the game already and just want to control the access to their own special snowflake options.

Better?

[WanderingOoze]

.....I doubt they play the game just to hoard food.

There are other reasons to play?

[Hauwke]

Im telling you to relax and I have 1 karma. So eat it.

[Armaddict]

That's a mischaracterization, again.  We were talking about how important it was to you, as was easily gained through reading the posts.

The flattening of karma makes things more accessible than they were.  There are very few, percentage-wise, who gained the karma before to just be able to play this or that willy-nilly.  A goodly portion of those higher-level roles were special application only, usually after some amount of discussion to insure it was a good basis that would make the role contribute something to the game.

The tone is not 'This is all that's important to me'.  It's 'I should be able to look forward to being able to play whatever I want'.  It's a historically inaccurate portrayal of how karma has ever worked, and is being used to push for more progress despite this newest change actually making things easier to access.

Stop getting up in arms over everything.  You'll be able to play things just fine, you'll probably just have to go through the same process the rest of us had to, but with a better baseline to push off of.

[Malken]

Nobody is going to admit they only play the game to play codedly powerful characters are they?

Pretty sure I never tried to hide that fact.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I'd like to see way more sorcerers in the game.  We need the villainy.

[Miradus]

Im telling you to relax and I have 1 karma. So eat it.

You're a fucking nobody.

[Armaddict]

Let me try to elaborate better, if you've got the patience to read through it.  You don't have to agree, but you should realize that the assertion/assumption wasn't a personal attack, more of a lamentation.

Karma, historically, was a static number, but with a lot of tiers.  Some people naturally developed their way up the karma ladder because -every- role they played, whether it be magickal, mundane, city or wilderness, they found a way to greatly impact the game in positive ways.  Some of the rest of us never got high up in the karma ladder because we didn't exhibit that quality; it isn't that I -can't- contribute greatly to the game, it's that sometimes my roles aren't meant to do anything more than podunk around and do my own thing.

This didn't limit me from playing higher karma roles; it just made it so that I needed to give a short presentation on why I should be able to.  That didn't put me below others, it just meant I had to express the interest in them.  Even people with 8 karma still got rejected applications based on current populations of things, because there is a balance to maintain in the game world to insure things don't get out of control; this is why they added in expenditures of karma instead of the static number, I assume, in order to make it more automated and require less attention to how long people are living, etc.  The announcement that there was a huge queue for these roles is telling, because that wasn't normally the case before even with more active players.

Now, the reason why some are disappointed with the view that was being vaguely alluded to wasn't because we're calling anyone lower-quality players.  It's just not a full understanding of that balance and what karma has been referenced as in the past.  In essence, the viewpoint of it as an all out blockade on you is going to be a -constant- hurdle for you until such a point that you have it all, and then you'll likely be dissatisfied with expenditures and the two special-app only roles.

The outline for what earns you karma was meant to demonstrate what it takes to 'consistently enrich the game' in a way that removes limitation of those roles, not what it takes to be a good roleplayer.  Things have now been shifted to make karma options more accessible, not less accessible, and so seeing that some are still viewing it as a ranking system to be climbed is a little bit worrying as to -why- someone wants to be able to play certain things consistently enough that the special application process isn't enough.  The special application process is just...how many, if not most, of us got to play those more powerful things, and it was always, -always- a time investment.  This new setup isn't alarming, it's...kinda relaxing things, by that standard.  Relaxing things to a point that I'm actually a little concerned about that balance maintenance, so I'd like to see how this plays out before everyone starts ragging on it as putting things out of reach.

Some things are necessarily out of reach the majority of the time.

[Hauwke]

Im telling you to relax and I have 1 karma. So eat it.

You're a fucking nobody.

Sure, in a sea of other nobodies.

[Akariel]

Because I didn't want to go through the last three pages to pick through all the flames, this thread is now locked. Please stop flaming each other, we are all members of the same community that enjoys a text-based game.

[Armaddict]

You guys locked the wrong one. XD

[Nathvaan]

Newp. You posted between the spit and when we got them locked the right way!