The Animal World and Realism.

[Doublepalli]

Have you ever seen someone say, oh, those are weak, I can kill them? Talking about a Bahamet, a Rantarri, a Kiyet, Dujats, Spiders, Raptors, Tembo, even a mek or Kryl depending, and there's more of course.

IMO, doesn't that sort of break immersion or the dangerous feel of the sands?

When someone pulls down their trousers, and poops on the Known because lol, we buff codedly?

There are all these dangerous animals, and over a multitude of PC's, this is what I witness. There's no respect from PC's risking their lives fighting creatures as big as them, carnivorous creatures, or creatures SO big, in reality it would take an entire hunting crew, AND a half-giant to realistically kill?

Instead, we have one man-2 man wrecking houses, slaughtering the known and laughing about it in a tavern, or wherever, and the known as we know it, is not so dangerous.

What's your thoughts?

[Riev]

I try to always mention that any gortok can take you by surprise and, if not kill you, certainly tear open a wound that might get infected.

Sure, you might be able to kill a bahamet, or a mekillot or something, codedly. All it takes is a couple bad rolls, though.

It does kind of break immersion, but I think a -well trained- pair of hunters, killing bigger creatures, makes fine sense.

[Jihelu]

I always try to imagine or atleast mention my hunting style if I do want to go 'Look at all this shit I kill' and include something such 'here's how I get away with it' and shit like that.

Not just.
"I can murder three meks with one arm tied behind my back!"

[nauta]

Yep.  It isn't realistic.  Same holds true of those who claim that the route from Nak to Luir's isn't dangerous. 

That said, it's a delicate balance.  What we know of the world comes from the room descriptions, room echoes, and how hard mobs are.  If the world isn't mapping onto the lore, then that's probably a bug.  If someone is mis-using code to win against the mobs, that's probably a player complaint.

ETA: That said, unless you observe a code abuse,  it's something that really can get worked out IC: either they will discover that they just got lucky and visit the mantis head, or you can make fun of them, or, if they are stealing jobs from other clans / hunters, you can PK them.  After all, people brag about doing unrealistic things all the time in RL, and then they die doing them.

One thing to note as well, I tend to err on the side of making the wilds seem far more dangerous than it codedly is, either with emotes about gith loping on the horizon, or just by telling stories about dangerous things.  I do this because as a newbie I was pretrified of the wilds, and it's one of those veils of ignorance that falls away as you become more experienced in the code.  So anything we can do to maintain or cultivate that veil of ignorance is a good thing.  (And, as Riev points out, it isn't even that hard to do: the mobs actually are hard and will wreck you eventually.)

[evilcabbage]

that veil only falls away until you kill a raptor for the first time, and then later you go to kill another, only he's wielding the sword that he took when him and his pals murdered a gith.

now you're the newbie hunter and he's the apex predator again

[Veselka]

I think this takes being the change, and not doing these kinds of things, and trying to set examples for other people. If people argue and say 'no carru are just silly little things that are easy to kill', probably file a player complaint so Staff can chat with them.

Alternatively, Staff can make all the wildlife much more dangerous, to actually scale.

[Molten Heart]

.

[Veselka]

It's honestly why I think fighting/being out in the wilderness should slowly drain stamina to reflect that no matter how big, how strong, how tall, or how 'badass you are', the Desert/Nature will take care of you eventually without properly resting/watering/fooding yourself.

So even on a trip from Luirs to Allanak, you will drain up to half of your stamina on a mount. Fighting will drain even more of your stamina, so if you get into several kerfuffles, you'll have to plan a rest half-way inbetween. Of course, this makes wagons and argosies all the more valuable. It could also reduce the 'lone wanderer' syndrome, where a long-lived character can appear to surmount obstacles that a group of relatively experienced PCs have some trouble overtaking. Not to mention half-giants.

Another way to increase the value of even a weak creature are wounds. These should only be treatable by bandaging, and should lead to diseases similar to 'Krath's Touch'. A fever, something that prevents or hinders stamina and health gain, lowers maximum HP, and so on.

I think this could properly reflect the dangers of the wilds or of a violent lifestyle, especially in a world with no anti-septic methods or methodology.

[Riev]

Which would be fine, if the code surrounding argosies and wagons wasn't so messy and complex that acquiring one is tantamount to Winning Armageddon.

If you've been hunting for 7-8 years, fighting the same/similar beasts over and over again, you have tactics that may make killing the next one -seem- easier. Codedly, you are developing fighting styles and techniques for each encounter, whether you're RPing them or not. Every carru may be easy for you while drunk and wielding a wooden dildo you won from the Kruth game last night, but if it gets to that point, at a certain level, the person has earned it.

That said, there should be relatively few techniques developed that allow you to kill *huge* creatures on your own. They exist, some people can surely do it, but at that point, I'd bet they'd keep it a pretty big secret.

[Delirium]

If you've gotten to the point you can kill Big Stuff, you've been playing that PC long enough to have RP scenarios worked out for just how you do it. Flanking, distraction, range, weak spots, whatever makes sense. And it shoukd be approached IC as if it is a big deal. Ooc you should too! After all, even if you kill 99, that 100th one could get a crit roll and ruin your day.

[Feco]

I don't find this problematic at all.  It's probably only a handful of PCs who brag about such feats, and even fewer who can actually accomplish them.  Keep in mind that people can, and do, lie.

It's also worth keeping in mind that you're under no obligation to believe anything anyone says.  If someone says something your PC thinks is absurd, feel free to treat it that way.

[Vex]

Just another day, on the GDB...

[Delirium]

I don't find this problematic at all.  It's probably only a handful of PCs who brag about such feats, and even fewer who can actually accomplish them.  Keep in mind that people can, and do, lie.

It's also worth keeping in mind that you're under no obligation to believe anything anyone says.  If someone says something your PC thinks is absurd, feel free to treat it that way.

this too.

[Veselka]

Just another day, on the GDB...

Always helpful to be antagonistic to commentary and critique.

[valeria]

It doesn't break my immersion.  My characters usually just view it as bragging.

[Tuannon]

Hubris has always been a part of being an outdoors person. I tend to echo Valeria's sentiment about most of it being hot air.

[Grapes]

"I once slaughtered everything I could find in the grey on my lonesome!"

think (feeling wary) Yep, don't get too attached to this Amos.

That said, super-hunters are actually kind of essential to gameplay, whether it's sneaking an emergency escort from one to three of them, ordering hard to find materials from them, arranging an accident for another of them that got too big for their britches, or hearing about that ONE time a wild Jozhal got into a dead grebber's spice stash and chased them halfway across the desert. Brag all they like, but they are by no means invincible, and that's just how some people prefer to play the game.

Keep in mind some people's playtimes may make it essential for them to play solo. I don't believe making the outdoors codedly more dangerous is a good answer to that. They're plenty dangerous as it is. The RNG gods come for all of us sooner or later.

[Inks]

I have seen OP play several characters like they are complaining about. No RP police.

In fact OP was creating threads about strength not being powerful enough while playing a maxxed dwarf warrior more than a year ago..so not sure where this came from.

[Grapes]

Well I mean, it's pretty much a running gag by now that strength is utterly broken.

[Inks]

Basically if your PC doesn't like someone boasting, deal with it ic, people can RP how they want and if they want to play a boastful asshole that is fine. 

I would take a boastful asshole over someone who doesn't rp any day of the week.

Also the wilderness is dangerous in many ways, even for powerful survivalists.

[evilcabbage]

do we really need to call people out?

i mean i enjoy it immensely, but the discussion is animal world and realism, not "the op did this and this so their argument is void".

maybe they learned their lesson and realized the error of their ways.

[Doublepalli]

I have seen OP play several characters like they are complaining about. No RP police.

In fact OP was creating threads about strength not being powerful enough while playing a maxxed dwarf warrior more than a year ago..so not sure where this came from.

Skiiiiiiirt. Pause. Wait. Hold up. Halt.

You wouldn't know who I played except for a single PC so the first part of your bold statement just doesn't add up, now I did play a dwarf who was indeed a max dwarf warrior before Kurac got nuked 1-2 years ago and I don't think you ever heard me saying strength isn't strong enough considering how broken strength is, and if you have high str its basically a free ticket to hitting anything, and hitting hard,
beyond that, I applaud you for calling me out in a public forum, in this thread, bravo, do yourself a favor and don't ooc judge/sniff with minimal information about who exactly you're trying to target?

That said, this is a thread about the animal kingdom and realism, this was made to bring up debate, to see varying peoples opinions on the matter!

[Inks]

Yeah, you were trying to get a buff to heavy armor while playing him.

While I 100% apologize for the targeted attack, it stands that you are obviously annoyed about ic behavior which is perfectly valid. And the wilderness is dangerous fo sho, some places are practically suicide.

[Doublepalli]

Yeah, you were trying to get a buff to heavy armor while playing him.

While I 100% apologize for the targeted attack, it stands that you are obviously annoyed about ic behavior which is perfectly valid. And the wilderness is dangerous fo sho, some places are practically suicide.

Oh, the thread I made about heavy armor? I still sorta stand by that, I mean I don't see a 110 shot through horror armor as very possible, but the system is fine as is. And no, I wasn't/am not, this thread is working mostly how I intended it to. It's healthy to keep IC and OOC seperate.

[Grapes]

Calm down fellas. Of course some players enjoying being as buff as they can.

That said, it's true what Inks said about the wilderness actually being quite brutal.

EDIT: Strength DOES make it seemingly impossible to miss anything that doesn't hope around like an elf very early on, in my experience.

[Hauwke]

Strength does indeed make it -considerably- easier to hit things. Even later in in the character they will still hit things easier, on the other hand, the people who have high strength, often have lower agility which means they themself are more vulnerable to being hit so it balances out.

[Miradus]

Strength does indeed make it -considerably- easier to hit things. Even later in in the character they will still hit things easier, on the other hand, the people who have high strength, often have lower agility which means they themself are more vulnerable to being hit so it balances out.

It didn't really seem to matter unless fighting multiple opponents or a really skilled guy with a shield and high parry.

Because your super high strength doesn't get through the shield or parry and if they swing 5 times each time you swing once (and then you get your superhit denied) you're still going to lose the dance of a thousand cuts.

But against animals? Oh I loved that high strength.

As far as people bragging about this or that animal being easy or this or that place not being dangerous, so what? Listen to the stories of the old mountain men and how they bragged about wrestling grizzly bears with their bare hands or how they could go into Injun territory and all the enemies would run away when they heard they'd been spotted.

Wilderness people love to brag about their exploits to greenhorns. And when we make it to the bar, then the raptor I killed is going to be ten times the size of the raptor you killed, and it showed up with its papa and three brothers too.

[Grapes]

Except, it sometimes IS three times the size of the raptor you killed, and brought its family along.

EDIT: It's like in Dark Souls, you see an empty room with a chest in the distance. You can easily deduce a million slimebuckets will drop from the ceiling and the chest, is in fact, a mimic.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I like to pet carru before I kill them, go ahead and player complaint.  I'm sure it will gain an audience.  I'm jk, but I don't think these are player complaint worthy.  These are realistic in game things and like others said can be and mostly are contributed to bragging.   

[TheGoose]

[Grapes]

If I didn't already have a sig, I'd sig that, I'm also hesitant to sig images.

[Synthesis]

Have you ever seen someone say, oh, those are weak, I can kill them? Talking about a Bahamet, a Rantarri, a Kiyet, Dujats, Spiders, Raptors, Tembo, even a mek or Kryl depending, and there's more of course.

IMO, doesn't that sort of break immersion or the dangerous feel of the sands?

When someone pulls down their trousers, and poops on the Known because lol, we buff codedly?

There are all these dangerous animals, and over a multitude of PC's, this is what I witness. There's no respect from PC's risking their lives fighting creatures as big as them, carnivorous creatures, or creatures SO big, in reality it would take an entire hunting crew, AND a half-giant to realistically kill?

Instead, we have one man-2 man wrecking houses, slaughtering the known and laughing about it in a tavern, or wherever, and the known as we know it, is not so dangerous.

What's your thoughts?

You've got a vast range of creatures, there.

There is -no- mundane non-half-giant PC in the game who can regularly solo mekillots and survive, without some sort of magick being involved.  Even with a completely maxed warrior with outstanding agility, your defense will not be perfect, and mekillots can hit hard enough to instagib you with a bite to the foot.  If anyone is saying that they did it IC, they're either a damn liar, they had magick buffs, or they got lucky.

Raptors are only dangerous to folks who have absolutely no business being outside the gates by themselves.  Tembos can be pretty nasty, but even rangers and assassins can take them out pretty handily before they even branch parry.  Ordinary kryl are only dangerous because of their extras, not because of raw combat ability.

I've never had a (mundane) PC where I was like, "yeah, I'll shit all over that rantarri by myself."  Giuseppe could kill them solo, sure, but probably 30% of the time I'd have to flee because I got a shit defense diceroll.  Tarantulas have a fairly large range of dangerous-ness, depending on what type you're talking about.  Some of them are barely man-sized, some of them are much larger.  There are very few PCs who are on a level where going up against the large ones doesn't eventually become a death sentence.

So...no, I don't think any of that is immersion-breaking.  It takes a fair amount of skill (and even more if your stats are shit) to go up against any of those creatures solo, and the truly nasty ones will still regularly fuck up overconfident warriors.  Of course, those warriors aren't going to -brag- about all the times they had to flee from a dujat...they're only going to tell you about the times they passed all their defense rolls.

[tapas]

The other issue is that combat skill is so generalized. If you're good at fighting a dangerous creature, you're probably good at fighting everything.

Instead, realistically you should have specialized teams that might focus on big game hunting. Trappers that capture elusive critters like jozhals. Specialized bounty hunters that bring in rogue muls etc.

Instead we got Buff McDuff that can fight erryone and errything.

[Grapes]

Instead we got Buff McDuff that can fight erryone and errything.

Buff McDuff can and has been destroyed many times over. No one is invincible, that's an illusion.

[tapas]

That's not what I'm saying.

Buff Mcduff fights everything. Tesha Tish the specialist traps ritikki on the plains.

Which of these two do we see in game?

[Kankfly]

I like the idea of expanding on the hunting code (not the actual hunt skill, but that would be pretty awesome too). Critter code? Anyway... having a trap system or something set up would be really cool. Though maybe a big project for staff to work on.

[Harmless]

At least jozhal hide and run, so sneaking or range attacks are easier to hunt them with. There are critters one needs to climb to hunt a good amount of. There are beasts one should only hunt with ranged attacks to be sane. Since warriors dont max the sneak archery abilities as well as rangers or maybe assassins can, you tend to see specializing happen at least that much.

There also apparently are coded bonuses rangers get to hunting certain beasts that other classes do not get. Warriors definitely have skills in armed combat (disarm) that rangers do not get.

So, that is what we already have for hunting realism, but it could possibly get better.

[Delirium]

Even the best of rangers is a damn limp-wristed fool next to a truly skilled warrior in toe to toe. The two are far from equal.

[Hauwke]

In hand to hand combat, the difference between a ranger and a warrior with comparable training is usually leaps and bounds apart. Just the fact that they have a few more defensive skills means that any warrior worth his salt should be able to beat a ranger pretty much hands down in a melee setting. Ranged? Eh, they can sort of keep up, but only in the same way a ranger sort of keeps up in melee.

[Synthesis]

The other issue is that combat skill is so generalized. If you're good at fighting a dangerous creature, you're probably good at fighting everything.

Instead, realistically you should have specialized teams that might focus on big game hunting. Trappers that capture elusive critters like jozhals. Specialized bounty hunters that bring in rogue muls etc.

Instead we got Buff McDuff that can fight erryone and errything.

There's been at least one staff post where they either explicitly stated or at least implied that there are hidden weapon-type-vs-race skills that (presumably) yield bonuses when someone is experienced at fighting a certain thing with a certain weapon type.

That being said, from my practical experience, these modifiers seem to be so small that they're barely noticeable, if at all.

That being said...if they -were- substantial modifiers, it would be super annoying, because it would essentially kick off an Armageddon-style Pokemon bloodbath.

[Jihelu]

I have noticed that the difference is notable, atleast in the early stages.
It's like sparring with a friend and he's hitting you with nicks, then all of a sudden you start parrying every single attack and you check your skills and your parry went up. It's about the same for hitting things.

And then you get like four or so more fails in in the next day or so and it stops mattering.