Desert Elves and their place in the world

[Doublepalli]

From an IC perspective my own tribal characters have viewed city elves as lesser and shittier compared to their sand running cousins. They barely get any support from their 'family'. They wind up dead for thievery every sixteen seconds.

You fuck with a delf? You have four or more fucking 8 foot tall humanoids outrunning your mount in the desert, shooting tainted arrows at your ass.

This right here! But then you have the non-tribal characters..and it's odd, because people do try and PK d-elves MORE often than you'd think. (speaking from experience) In their own 'stomping grounds' aka, the sands.

[Molten Heart]

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[Riev]

Yes, but this is about the DESERT elves and THEIR place in the world.

Territorial, untrusting of others, MOST have little to no interest in trade with the outside world. They have their tribal politics but generally... they're just like human tribals without the sense of cooperation with others.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Originally I was going to post how even with Desert run there'd still be (I assume) a vast statistical gulf, but I'm even okay with that so long as Desert run is granted. At least it would make Celf bynners less of a running (heh) joke. And at 120 movement points how much trouble can you actually get up to?

[gotdamnmiracle]

Yes, but this is about the DESERT elves and THEIR place in the world.

Territorial, untrusting of others, MOST have little to no interest in trade with the outside world. They have their tribal politics but generally... they're just like human tribals without the sense of cooperation with others.

I'd say they fill Strange role where they have to posture to maintain that they are scary xenophobes, but also necessary warriors and trading partners. Sadly it's often easier to just ignore them than reap whatever benefits cultivating a relationship may be.

Sorry forthe double post.

[Riev]

For a non-tribal person, there is almost zero reason to ever think about or have any interest in the tribal elves and their territories. There is one area that sometimes people might care about, but in general... they're not gatekeepers to any sought after materials, resources, or technologies. They can posture, and be brutally effective at keeping their territory safe (Believe me. 12 angry warriors can't do a thing against three elves in their favored terrain.)

However, there just aren't many reasons to include them. They're not BAD, they don't specifically need to be 'fixed', it just is a nearly different game and experience.

[gotdamnmiracle]

That's true, Reiv. I feel like, more than anything Delves are hindered by their territory. I've noticed too that vying for further control or resources for your tribe is encouraged right up until you actually try to do anything about it.

It makes no sense to me that elves would live in a shithole like the Tablelands when the scrublands and Mantis Valley are right next door. They should at least be TRYING to push into more lush areas like that.

[Molten Heart]

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[Riev]

I have a feeling the Tablelands/Pah provide exactly enough resources for them to maintain their status and camps. There's probably water sources there that aren't in the scrub. The scrub was also a long-held Muarki area, with constant intrusion and issues from Tuluk.

I think it makes sense that they would have learned to live in the Tablelands, there just isn't like... a reason for trade or interaction. There are a few reasons I've gone into the Pah on a non-elf, and many might be able to guess the reasons, but its not like... a necessity.

[Doublepalli]

Even with the current open d-elf clan that's known for trading anything and with everyone, all over the known - Why would you, when you can get almost all the same materials from a human ranger, than an elf thats ganna 'trick' you?

[surveyvon]

I'll take a stab at this.

Desert elves and their tribal cultures are extremely interesting. I find it hard to hate them based on this premise alone. That being said, given the mobility and tight-knit nature of desert elves, it's a scary prospect to mess with them because there's a thought in the back of my head that I'll be going up against an entire tribe. Depending on how badly they go out of their way to oppress you in the sands, some tribes are easier to hate than others.

Messing with a city elf feels straightforward because more often than not, you're only messing with one elf and not an entire tribe. Secondarily, a city elf feels pretty vulnerable out in the sands given the lack of a desert elf's running capabilities. I'd like to see city elves inherit some trait to support their pride regarding their legs. Possibly greatly increased resting speeds to support a more burst-oriented movement style that you'd expect to see in a city versus out in the desert.

Trading with desert elves is a compromise. You're invariably going to lose out something in the exchange but frequently the goods being traded are worth that little bit of pain. It's important that desert elves continue to hold goods and crafts that are desirable and not reproducible outside of those tribes. Traders are traders - they tend to be somewhat predatory even if they're human.

The average person's knowledge of desert elves is probably predicated by their geographic location and probably their occupation. I'm not experienced enough to have a desire to make strong claims here. Desert elves provide a type of "law" to the areas that they claim dominance over and it allows for interesting conflict opportunities. The way you treat them depends on how badly you can risk provoking their ire. If you're a hunter or grebber working in elf-prowled territory, you should think twice before pissing them off.

[Dahlia]

This thread makes me miss Blackwing so much.

*single tear*

[Jihelu]

"Possibly greatly increased resting speeds to support a more burst-oriented movement style that you'd expect to see in a city versus out in the desert."

This is a great fucking idea.

[Grapes]

Ok, I'm noticing some, "Why would you even?..." in this thread, in regards to elves. The most glaring being "trade with one?"

Why would you trade with elves? Because when elves produce goods, they do so to deceive the environment and the mind to the utmost of their abilities. A city elf will try to sell you a rotten pile of putrid rags under the label "midden-heap camouflage"... and you know what, it just, might work. As a player, you know codedly that that's rinthi starter gear. As a character, this sort of stinky treasure may just help you elude justice in a time of need.

Elves aren't the only ones with pride, even the half-giant wearing a barrel on their head and saying "I'm a barrel!" has pride in their deceptive abilities... and that's why you'd possibly go out of your way, secretly (half-giants excluded), no doubt, to garner favor, trust, and barter with elves of either city or desert stripe. They're thieves, scandalous, murderers without code! Of course they are, which are the best reasons to make friends with them, not only do you want to not get knifed over your boots, you also want allies to call on when conventional routes fail you. You'd assume you're smart enough to make a good deal, even if you weren't.

EDIT: Look at it this way, by sheer numbers and strength overcoming adversity, without mobility, city elves are a completely different mindset in some rather important regards to desert elves. The only thing keeping them in check, from what I gather, is that they never are allowed to bypass the barriers needed to form the sort of large tribe thinking desert tribes take for granted, and thus, when too many elves try to scrabble together in the city it's met with disaster, particularly from the inside.

But if they suddenly got desert run and direction sense, and decided to take back the Pah?... well, let's just, not go there.

[Riev]

em peers at the title of the thread

City Elves are on the Rotating GDB Cycle already. Desert Elves. The tribals, out there not even IN the city, the ones who make knives out the claws of animals you'll never hunt, and probably will never care to. The keepers of the wezers, the protectors of the Pah, fighting the nasty clawfeet since the day they were born just to maintain their quasi-simple life.

Some of them are territorial raiders. Some of them are political backstabbers. Some of them probably even like when their members have innate magickal abilities because it means they're favored, and can assist in guiding and defending the tribe from natural and unnatural threats.

Because they do not live where there are roads, they have honed themselves, their gear, and their boots to allow them to run for vast distances without tiring. Elves that have stayed in the cities and the walls for so long, lost this. Desert Elves probably pity them for this, assuming they chose to mingle with the warring roundears rather than worship whatever savage deities they do.

So. Their place is something very alien to "most" of the world. Its a great thing to experience, I think, what little of it I ever have, but I don't think its like "Log in, check the tavern, hang out with people, go watch an arena event" kind of living. Its "go out, hunt, bring back meat and water for the tribe, keep the gith at bay, make sure the roundears keep to their side of the Pah, and the Outsiders stay out entirely, visit the Pits for trade and rumors, make fun of their foolish indoor taverns, and then come back home to where everyone loves you, trusts you, and makes sure you have a safe place to lay your head at night" kind of place.

[LucildaHunta]

I think Riev nailed it every time. They're sort of in a playability pickle. Add to that a lot of people play them as Claustrophobic/Cleithrophobic, which is in line with Dark Sun sources. It takes interaction a notch up on the difficulty scale, many players of Desert elves simply WON'T travel to a population center. In the very worst they'll literally freak out in a walled place and at best they're on the verge of a freak out because they're out of their element. Then add to that their history, they're what happens when you win Armageddon. They have their land, which they've fought hard for, they don't want outsiders there because humans in particular have a history of screwing EVERYTHING up, they really don't venture outside of their lands because...Why? There really isn't a resource they NEED or a thing they WANT because.....WHY? Conversely, there really isn't a reason for a non-elf to go there either because of wants and needs either. You could think of them as a third city state that....nobody has a reason to go to or interact with. It makes interactions feel forced and like you're throwing each other an RP bone. You have to want to play a desert elf and when you do, you're behind the eight ball, which makes them a revolving door.

To add to that problem Desert Elves have some serious limitations. Some clans open or closed, have a specific territory they stick to and the reasons for going outside of them are....limited. The reasons for coming to them are....limited. Which is all well and good, that's what they are...Desert Elves. But then they kind of come in two flavors. The raiding kind or the trading kind. One clan has become the defacto "protectors of the land" and the other are gypsies with pointy ears, that don't like you. If you go outside of the box, you're playing against the docs. We know the OOC feeling of being raided, if you don't though...there's an undercurrent of "Why aren't you....Oh I get it, you're a soft desert elf" If you're trading, somewhere in the back of your mind you're thinking "Do I really need that?" Chances are...you don't and that goes both ways. If you don't want to deal with them...you don't have to and they don't have to deal with you either. If you want to raid...think Red Fangs. If you want to trade...think Blackwing. Playing the middle really isn't all that easy, you have to want to play them and they're in a different world than everybody else.

If you use Blackwing as a reference, you're talking about a different game. They are a throwback to when the game was more action oriented and they won Armageddon. They have a great history and they give you all the feels of the type of game Armageddon once was, but it's not that type of game anymore. If you think Red Fangs, they're everything that's wrong with a particular play-style and ultimately a reminder of what could happen if you're all conflict all the time. I think they have a place in the world though, it's just not as accessible to many concepts or involving certain situations. The why question will always come up and the answer seems on the forced side of things. They have a story, it just doesn't seem to overlap with the current stories. It would take some very creative motivations and ideas to inject themselves into the world as it is. 

I think a clan or one of the current clans having a branch or ties in the city would spice things up and bridge the gap between city elf and country elf. Something like the Nightrunners from Darksun. A clan that has city ties and can operate in the city, but is based in the Tablelands. This might be a little overpowered for the game though, but it would put an interesting wrinkle on the Delf/Celf problem. Also, the docs don't really allow for that kind of thing. But it's something to think about, but as it is they truly are different mindset and play-style.