Will slant eye be next on the "thou shalt not use" list

[John]

So I've been off for a month, busy with RL, and came back to see how things are when I saw necker has been banned. A made up word that has some similarities to a RL slur.

As someone who lives in a country with a high Asian population, I was shocked to see slant eye is on the list of permissible words, but yet necker has been put on a banned word list: https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Curses

For those who aren't aware slant eye is a RL racial slur. It isn't similar to a RL racial slur. It is one: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slant-eye

So are we going to put a RL slur on the banned words list? Or are we limiting the list to only those that trigger Americans?

I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

[Lizzie]

Honestly, I've never heard anyone actually call an elf a "slant-eye." In addition, they aren't "slant-eyes" (as a descriptive, rather than a pejorative), so I don't know why anyone would call them that. Elves commonly have almond-shaped eyes. Almond-shaped eyes, for all intents and purposes, are - eye-shaped eyes.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5c/32/d1/5c32d1ebaa467d0c6e89f889a38cc4ef--almond-eyes-eyeliner-apply-eyeliner.jpg

No slants there. Just mundane, ordinary Western eyes.

[Armaddict]

Slant was an IC term for elves that I haven't seen used in game since around 2004.

[number13]

Almond-shaped eyes, for all intents and purposes, are - eye-shaped eyes

"Almond-shaped eyes" is idiomatic.  Yes, it refers to Asian eyes. No, it isn't really an almond shape.

[John]

Almond-shaped eyes, for all intents and purposes, are - eye-shaped eyes

"Almond-shaped eyes" is idiomatic.  Yes, it refers to Asian eyes. No, it isn't really an almond shape.

Exactly. White imperialists have a habit of likening asian eyes to almonds for centuries: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/16/219402847/-almond-shaped-eyes-remarkably-exotic-yet-too-foreign

So yes, slant-eyed does make sense to describe someone who has almond eyes when you realise almond eyes is simply code for asian eyes. Of course, this little nugget of racism goes back to Dark Sun rather than Armageddon. The game is simply being true to it's original inspirations/source material.

[Lizzie]

Yes I remember hearing the term being used to refer to Asian eyes - around 20 years ago. Presently, however, it doesn't refer to that. It refers to eyes, shaped like almonds. *I* have almond-shaped eyes. If you're a woman who buys eye-liner from cosmetics counters, you will know that almond-shaped eyes are eyes shaped like almonds. Nothing nefarious about that. "Asian" eyes are what you'd hear to describe people who have the epicanthic fold, and the term used for that is - in fact - "Asian" eyes (even though not all Asians have that type of eye fold, and not all people with that fold are Asian).

Armaddict says he hasn't heard that term used in game since 2004, I haven't ever heard it actually used in game. It seems like pretty much a non-issue. Or was, til you brought it up.

[Malken]

I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

Then why make this thread while the debate on the necker word has been beaten to death over and over again?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

At least be honest in your attempt to bring the whole necker thing back to life.

[John]

Yes I remember hearing the term being used to refer to Asian eyes - around 20 years ago.

Nonetheless, when I first read the description on elves it was pretty clear to me that they had slanted eyes (then again, that was 15 years ago).

Also just because you don't connect something, doesn't mean there isn't a clear connection. As someone whose never actually heard the term nigger used in anything except TV (almost always by an African American directed to another African American with the exception of films set in historical periods), I never really connected the term necker with nigger before it was brought up on the forums a few years ago.

Armaddict says he hasn't heard that term used in game since 2004, I haven't ever heard it actually used in game. It seems like pretty much a non-issue. Or was, til you brought it up.

So are you saying that slant eye should remain in game as a valid derogatory term to be used towards elves?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

Staff have set the standard that a word that bears similarity to a RL racial slur is not allowed. I have raised the question as to whether or not actual RL racial slurs are acceptable in game. I do acknowledge that this is stirring the point. But it's also a valid point to make.

So Malken, would you be okay if I created a character who consistently used the term slant eyed to refer to elves?

[Malken]

So Malken, would you be okay if I created a character who consistently used the term slant eyed to refer to elves?

I didn't agree with the decision on banning the necker word, but that horse has long been beaten to death.

So yes, I would be okay if you created a character who consistently used the term slant eyed to refer to elves, until Staff bans it. I'm not on Staff, tho, so my opinion on the use of a word doesn't have much say.

I haven't played the game in forever but I heard that it was also in the way that necker was starting getting used, too much like Armageddon = Grand Theft Auto (necker please, how's my necker doin', yo, she's a necker lover, etc.) If people start referring to really bad wagon drivers as slant-eyed dinks, then maybe I'd start considering it a problem as well.

[nauta]

I was shocked to see slant eye is on the list of permissible words[...]

[...]

I don't think it should be added.

Wait.  So you are shocked to discover that people use this RL racist term inside the game, and at the same time you think that they should be using that RL racist term inside the game?  I don't think you were actually shocked, John.  I think you're doing a bit of trolling.

[Jarvis]

Trolling is such a nasty word. We should call what he's doing as "satire".

we wouldn't want to offend any actual trolls would we

[Armaddict]

I think he's pointing out that the slippery slope is a real one when the principle of actions comes into play.  The principle behind the las course of action was present, but it's a principle that is counter-intuitive to the setting of the game.  I, myself, repeatedly point to these sort of things as arbitrary decisions; that is, decisions carried out on a whim based off of a personal attachment rather than a game-inspired direction or plan.

However, as noted in the other thread, such things being pointed out pretty much fall on deaf ears.  This is not the line in the sand.  It's just another example among small, but present, examples that have been displayed over the past few years.

I think this thread was unnecessary given how much the topic was already discussed.  I do not think these actions break the game, they are just indicators of the future and how the game will slowly drain itself of life until we become world-builders rather than player police once again.  That's...summing up all my posts from the other thread, so that I can never post in this one again.  Heh.

[John]

Wait.  So you are shocked to discover that people use this RL racist term inside the game

Nope. I was shocked to see a RL racial slur documented as okay to use given how sensitive people have become regarding racial relations and how the game can spill over to RL. My surprise is actually funny, because I'm fairly certain I collated that list back in 2002 or 2004.

at the same time you think that they should be using that RL racist term inside the game?

Correct. This is a game about a harsh post apocalyptic world where the good guys brutally murder each other as a matter of routine and someone's life is given little to no value. I'm okay with a RL racist term being used in game.

I don't think you were actually shocked, John.

I disagree. But you could swap out shocked for surprised if that would change the meaning of the sentence for you.

I think you're doing a bit of trolling.

We have policy X. I have noticed that item A is extremely similar and very well could be a valid reason to see policy X broadened to include item A. It doesn't mean I agree with Policy X.

[Malken]

John, you already posted in the thread about necker:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52594.msg989372.html#msg989372

which is why I'm wondering why you decided to create another thread about it today.

[John]

John, you already posted in the thread about necker:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52594.msg989372.html#msg989372

which is why I'm wondering why you decided to create another thread about it today.

That post was made BEFORE the policy came into being an official rule that could possibly see someone be banned. In that post I referred to people of mixed descent and how our roleplay is insensitive towards such people.

I created a new thread because I wanted to draw attention to the fact a RL racial slur is permitted in game (unlike necker which isn't actually a RL racial slur) and see whether or not staff or the players feel like it should be banned. This is a different point then either discussing the word necker or how we roleplay towards half-elves. But if the mods want to make combine this thread with the other or lock this thread I'm sure they will in some short time.

[Kalden]

Seems like a good idea to remove that from the curses helpfile.

I'm not even Asian, but I don't want to see IRL words like that in-game.

[John]

Seems like a good idea to remove that from the curses helpfile.

What about banning it? Do you think it should be banned from the game?

[Kalden]

If it was common, maybe. Since it's not, no.

[Dar]

I've got a headache from this thread.

[WarriorPoet]

I played a long term character with slant-eye as the sdesc. I never considered for a second that it would be offensive. I used it because.... well.... his eyes were slanted. Radical.

[ghanima]

I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

Then why make this thread while the debate on the necker word has been beaten to death over and over again?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

At least be honest in your attempt to bring the whole necker thing back to life.

Dude, the guy said he's been away from the game for a while and only became aware of the necker ban just now. I think he's allowed to respond to the issue and weigh in. It's not like topics here have an expiration date.

What's with the obsession to silent even the faintest whiff of dissent on this board?

[Lizzie]

I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

Then why make this thread while the debate on the necker word has been beaten to death over and over again?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

At least be honest in your attempt to bring the whole necker thing back to life.

Dude, the guy said he's been away from the game for a while and only became aware of the necker ban just now. I think he's allowed to respond to the issue and weigh in. It's not like topics here have an expiration date.

What's with the obsession to silent even the faintest whiff of dissent on this board?

He knew about the ban. He responded to the post announcing the ban, and stating that players would be given a month to get used to the change before it became official. That was June 17. It's now July 30. He has been back since before the ban, and he hasn't left between the announcement that it -would- be made official, and the announcement that it -has- been made official.

[boog]

Thus, he's just trying to stir the pot.

Christ.

I'm going back to OOC discussion only.

[Malken]

I don't think it should be added. But then again, I don't think necker should be added either.

Then why make this thread while the debate on the necker word has been beaten to death over and over again?

Talk about trying to shit-stir the pot in the least subtle of ways.

At least be honest in your attempt to bring the whole necker thing back to life.

Dude, the guy said he's been away from the game for a while and only became aware of the necker ban just now. I think he's allowed to respond to the issue and weigh in. It's not like topics here have an expiration date.

What's with the obsession to silent even the faintest whiff of dissent on this board?

I'm feeling like there's an air of "positiveness" right now going on with the game and the community, as well as with the Staff. In all honesty, I feel like this post and the timing of it is just shitting on the players' and the Staff's parade and there's absolutely no need for it, considering that the topic has been beaten to death like I said and that the rule is there to stay.

I'm all for dissent and for "keeping it real, yo", but I think that shit stirring just for the sake of it is pretty lame, especially, like I said, when things are slowly starting to "feel" positive - positive enough for me to strongly consider creating a new character and hoping that what I'm feelin' is also represented in-game.

[TheGoose]

Bitching about the necker change isn't going to get it reverted. Staff already did reverts on the silliest of the silly shit, but the necker change isn't going anywhere. Do what the rest of us do and ignore it IG, staff will continue not really enforcing this rule nobody likes or cares about and eventually it'll fade away. Shit stirring for the sake of shit stirring is counter-productive.

Stop being such a snowflake.

[SuchDragonWow]

Take slant eye off the curses list, because no one even uses it.  And nobody cares.

[ghanima]

If you don't like what John has to say in this thread why not just... not participate? Honestly guys, refusing to post in a discussion you have grown tired of is in fact one option available to you (so is not reading if it bothers you so much).

There are a lot of threads on this discussion board as a whole. There are a lot I don't participate in. There's a reason for that. You might want to give that a try some time.

[John]

I'm feeling like there's an air of "positiveness" right now going on with the game and the community, as well as with the Staff. In all honesty, I feel like this post and the timing of it is just shitting on the players' and the Staff's parade

I wouldn't know anything about that because literally the second thing I saw was this policy actually happened (first thing I saw was a bunch of release notes on bug fixes).

I'm all for dissent and for "keeping it real, yo", but I think that shit stirring just for the sake of it is pretty lame

We have a policy that literally polices how we can speak in game because of allusions to real life racial slurs, and yet the policy is limited to the one thing that has got staff all hot and bothered. The fact I can't use a fictional racial slur in game and yet I have carte blanche to use actual real racial slurs is definitely eyeroll worthy and something I'm going to bring up.

Staff already did reverts on the silliest of the silly shit, but the necker change isn't going anywhere.

I call it how I see it and when I see stupid I point out it's stupid.

Do what the rest of us do and ignore it IG, staff will continue not really enforcing this rule nobody likes or cares about and eventually it'll fade away.

Hey, if people are actually simply ignoring it and deliberately breaking the rule and staff are willfully refusing to enforce it, that's great. But that isn't really obvious to anyone whose read about the rule which explicitly says:

This is an official rule moving forward, it is not an optional rule.  Players who choose to continue to use the term in game will be viewed as having broken one of the game rules and be given the appropriate warnings and follow up.

Note that breaking other rules result in: character storing, karma getting docked, 1 month bans and permanent bans. But if everyone's saying this policy isn't actually being enforced at all then that's good to hear. I won't have to alter my character's from using fictional slurs to using actual slurs.

[th3kaiser]

Weird, who wrote up the curses helpfile? I've NEVER heard anyone use slant eye IG. And doesn't everyone know it's a RL racist term? Wacky stuff, let's get that removed.

[Lutagar]

i warned you about those slippery slopes bro!!!

i told you dog!

[th3kaiser]

Not really a slippery slope. As far as I'm aware, RL racism has always been banned.

[SuchDragonWow]

Weird, who wrote up the curses helpfile? I've NEVER heard anyone use slant eye IG. And doesn't everyone know it's a RL racist term? Wacky stuff, let's get that removed.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard it used as a racist remark.  I don't think it should be banned, either, since slant-eyed is a descriptor that can have not-racist uses, per WarriorPoet.  Don't see anything wrong with that, myself.  Remove it from the curses helpfile, and slam dunk this thread.

[Yam]

Take slant eye off the curses list, because no one even uses it.  And nobody cares.

[John]

Google it: https://www.google.com.au/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-samsung&source=android-browser&q=slant+eyed&gfe_rd=cr&ei=ya1_WanRF9Lr8Af23bqwCw

You aren't going to get a bunch of anatomical websites. The word is definitely racist. Not banning slant eyed while banning necker makes no sense at all. Than again, I think banning any words because they could be perceived as being a RL racist term is ridiculous.

[Delirium]

Is this really the hill you want to die on?

[ExtraPlanar]

its almost as if fantasy as a genre and its depiction of fantasy races is mired within racist bio-determinist ideologies of the centuries passed and that racism in fiction is uncomfortably close to racism in real life

[Vox]

Take slant eye off the curses list, because no one even uses it.  And nobody cares.

[Lutagar]

i kind of find it funny how people potentially getting offended by necker was reason enough for it to be removed

when people say another word offends them they get told to suck it up and fuck off

seems kind of arbitrary but i'm not sure why i expected anything else at this point

[Inks]

Take slant eye off the curses list, because no one even uses it.  And nobody cares.

[Cind]

I'm part Asian and live in the American south so banning slant-eyed feels a little weird since I can't immediately think of any good replacements, and its not offensive in my mind, its a trait some people have, with the slightly vaguest hint of offensiveness to it, but you don't know any other words for it.

I remember one corporal or sargaent or something of the Arm who lived for a long time and had slant-eyed in his description. I think that for the longest time, I assumed he was one of those Clark Kenting elves (Clark Kent removes his sunglasses to transform into Superman, the way some people have elf eyes in the game and are considered human.) But he never acted like an elf around me, so I didn't assume he was.

You guys are talking about slant-eyed as an insult rather than a sdesc or mdesc word aren't you?

[Cind]

In that case, yeah, I can see it. Its like a stab against Asians or something. I didn't grow up with much of the culture, my mom wanted me raised American, so its not like my opinion means more or anything.

(When someone in Gran Torino called an Asian a rice n----, we both laughed.)

[Inks]

No, I just have never heard that used as a racist slur. This is OP shit stirring. Imms modified the original post to only be necker, at first it was words like dick and cunt, both of which I love on rinthi pcs, so I get where he is going with the fallacy slippery slope argument. I remember this exact same thing when rape was removed. Necker was lame, cmon.

[Lutagar]

No, I just have never heard that used as a racist slur. This is OP shit stirring.

How can you tell?

It might not be offensive to you, a very obviously privileged white american, but to asians such as myself it's hurtful that a word that was deemed to have similarities to a derogatory to a certain ethnic miniority was removed when a word that IS a derogatory to my ethnic is still considered perfectly acceptable to use IG. Do our feelings just not matter as much?

[Hauwke]

I forget whose quote it is, But!

At the end of the day we are all a bunch of nerds pretending to be bald dwarves and dusty elves.

If you find stuff insulting, take a step back and tell yourself: "Wait, is that racist Byn Sarge telling me the player that I am a worthless piece of shit Runner with no hope of ever doing anything." Or are they saying it to my character in this RolePlaying game, thats like 90% about being a raging dickhead?

Edit because I am a stupid: I used Necker and didnt want it banned. My racist AF RP does not equal racist AF RL.

[Inks]

So now you are guessing my social background and natio? To be fair I was never offended by necker, I just found it lame rp. So many rap songs changed to necker, was eyeroll inducing?

@Lutagar, don't play an rpi if you are going to be insulted by the rp. It is only the fact that necker broke immersion for me with an audiable clunk, is all.

[Lutagar]

So now you are guessing my social background and natio?

Yep, if you'd suffered any form of discrimination in your life you wouldn't be as dismissive as you are right now. And there's only really one ethnic that gets to live in such blissful ignorance.

Have you considered the reason you've never heard it used IRL is because you're not asian and it doesn't apply to you?

[Hauwke]

Being white means you cant make any racist comments without being called racist. Being any other skin color makes you an asshole for the comment.

[Inks]

Thanks man. Appreciate the support. My jimmies actually got rustled when I was suddenly called a rascist on a discussion about rp.

[Lutagar]

Being white means you cant make any racist comments without being called racist. Being any other skin color makes you an asshole for the comment.

I could agree if we had 'honkey' or 'cracker' as an IG slurr and everyone that wasn't white was arguing it was fine and those who wanted it removed were just being huge babies, but this isn't what's happening at all. It's the exact opposite. They're not used very often irl unironically, so would that make it okay?

[Hauwke]

I dont even view it as true racism. Sure they are called races but in my headcannon the various peoples of Zalanthas are more like different species to be entirely honest. Would that even be called racism?

[Kankfly]

HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT? I'M FREAKING ASIAN! CHINESE TO BE EXACT!

And I am not offended by the term 'slant-eyes' IG.

So can all you people stop beating on this horse skeleton already? And move on?

[Cind]

This is a really active thread for it being six in the morning. That's when all the Asians are up, of course.

[Lutagar]

HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT? I'M FREAKING ASIAN! CHINESE TO BE EXACT!

And I am not offended by the term 'slant-eyes' IG. narcissistic enough to think i speak for an entire ethnic.

ftfy

[Kankfly]

No, I just have never heard that used as a racist slur. This is OP shit stirring.

How can you tell?

It might not be offensive to you, a very obviously privileged white american, but to asians such as myself it's hurtful that a word that was deemed to have similarities to a derogatory to a certain ethnic miniority was removed when a word that IS a derogatory to my ethnic is still considered perfectly acceptable to use IG. Do our feelings just not matter as much?

HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT? I'M FREAKING ASIAN! CHINESE TO BE EXACT!

And I am not offended by the term 'slant-eyes' IG. narcissistic enough to think i speak for an entire ethnic.

ftfy

That's rather hypocritical of you since you just made the same assumption for an entire ethnic group, and then turned around and called someone else a "very obviously privileged white american".

[Vox]

Kankfly for the knock out!

Go home, Lutagar, you're drunk.

[Cind]

Hey guys, relax. There's nothing wrong with your viewpoints too.

[Me]

HEY GUYS GUESS WHAT? I'M FREAKING ASIAN! CHINESE TO BE EXACT!

And I am not offended by the term 'slant-eyes' IG. narcissistic enough to think i speak for an entire ethnic.

ftfy

I remembered a time when there will be a moderator that will step in at this point, asking everyone to calm down and stop flaming. This is a General DISCUSSION board, not a General FLAMING board. 

Now while you are most welcome to feeling offended about a certain IC slur that may or may not trigger an OOC negative reaction, please keep in mind this is a an IC game where most of us are playing something different to who we really are in real life. Just because I am playing a simple-minded HG as an example, does not mean I am simple minded in real life. And in reverse, just because I called you a simple-minded half-giant, does not mean I am implying in anyway possible that you are a simple-minded over-grown RL human towering at a minimum of 10 feet tall. It is what it is in essence, a game.

Sadly if we are all trying to be extremely politically correct on a game setting that does NOT allow politically correct environment, this game will no longer be a game that we've all come to love.

Armageddon is a harsh environment where the strongest survives. People will degrade you, kill you, and (in the cases of the more privileged) bury you with dirty, under-the-table political manoeuvres. Racism unfortunately IN THE GAME happens, but that is not a direct reflection of a player OOC.

Just because I called someone a... and in this instance ... dirty, slant-eyed, cheating sharp does not mean I'm calling that PC out that in real life they're a dirty, slant-eyed cheating Asian. Why? Because I'm addressing a goddamn elf, not a goddamn Asian. PLEASE NOTE: Asians do not exist on Arm

Finally, as a Chinese player who look very Chinese and have actually experienced racism first-hand on multiple times I have zero connection between calling a fictional fantasy character their characteristic trait to a group of race in RL.

Because I repeat: It's just a game.

[SuchDragonWow]

Now, look what you did, you got all the Asians riled up ...  to say it's just a game.  Lurvs you guys.  I tell you what, though, I couldn't find a single post where anybody was saying "Holy shit, I love slant eye, and I'll fight that to my dying breath, you fuckers!"  Couldn't even find anything close to it.  Probably because most of Arm's population isn't racist.  Stay woke, tho

[sleepyhead]

I don't give a crap one way or another about slant-eye because no one uses it for elves IG. Maybe I have heard it once or twice ever. But it's not cool with me to call Kankfly narcissistic. She is anything but.

[The Lonely Hunter]

"I created a new thread because I wanted to draw attention to the fact a RL racial slur is permitted in game (unlike necker which isn't actually a RL racial slur) and see whether or not staff or the players feel like it should be banned. "

Anything can be construed as racist or hurtful. We live in the age of participation awards IRL...but not in Zalanthas! So, knock it off.

I think that banning anything in the game because it hurts someone's feelings IRL is ridiculous. This is a mature game with mature content everywhere. What happened to separating IC and OOC? It is almost as if people aren't really playing in Zalanthas...this is a very gritty environment where murder is common and torture is a public pastime.

A lack of maturity and inclination to melt are softening the game. Knock it off. Please.

[Renenutet]

Alright. It is that time. You can be as vehement as you please, but that has to stop short of personal attacks. If you need to re-read the forum rules.

[RogueGunslinger]

Pretty sure I haven't seen a single person supplying a reasonable explanation for why we need to remove words in a game as harsh and racist as Armageddon. But the decision was made and staff have gone back on a total of 0 decisions in the decade I've been here. It's pointless to argue further.

[LucildaHunta]

I just want to know why asians don't exist in the game. I'm genuinely curious.

[Riev]

I just want to know why asians don't exist in the game. I'm genuinely curious.

They live across the Silt Sea.

More likely, the Known's population of humans is based on the humans that survived whatever wiped out most of society. The Known is, for all intents and purposes, rather small and limited so far as in-race diversity, to the point where nobility all have similar genetics and commoners probably just kill off anything that looks different. Most humans are probably homogenized to look, basically, like middle-easterners.

[Barzalene]

1. Most of the middle East is in Asia
2. There's often a disconnect between how mdescs are written and read. I bet there are plenty of Asians.

[LucildaHunta]

I just want to know why asians don't exist in the game. I'm genuinely curious.

They live across the Silt Sea.

More likely, the Known's population of humans is based on the humans that survived whatever wiped out most of society. The Known is, for all intents and purposes, rather small and limited so far as in-race diversity, to the point where nobility all have similar genetics and commoners probably just kill off anything that looks different. Most humans are probably homogenized to look, basically, like middle-easterners.

Is that written down somewhere or just a thing?

[Lizzie]

I always assumed Nakki citizens were from the Deep South. Rinthis are all from the Bronx. Red Stormers are BWI. Cenyr is Wales, obviously. Luir's Outpost is Jamaica, doh. Tuluk is the UK, or possibly Wyoming. That would make Morin's Istanbul, and the Tablelands are clearly Arizona.

[BadSkeelz]

I've seen more people referred to as "Chinky" in-character more than I've ever seen slant-eyed used in-character. (It's 1 to 0 if you're wondering).

I've seen plenty of PCs with what we could refer to OOC as having "Asian" features, but the word and concept of  "Asia" doesn't exist in game so it shouldn't be used as a reference in game. I also interpret the setting in the opposite manner of Riev: the Known is functionally a post-apocalyptic refugee camp, with a large degree of variation in looks allowable because it's been settled by people from all over the old world. There's no right or wrong way to portray a human character. I'm pretty sure the common PC tropes of "northies are blond, southies are swarthy" is just player-created apocrypha and has no actual documentary basis.

I think there might have been one Byn Sarge who had slant-eyed in his sdesc, but I never read it as anything other than a matter-of-fact anatomical description. And I'm the one person who correctly interpreted the racist connotations behind "Necker" so I think we can all agree that that was a safe and uncontroversial use of the phrase.

[Malken]

They live across the Silt Slit Sea.

[Delirium]

I'm pretty sure the common PC tropes of "northies are blond, southies are swarthy" is just player-created apocrypha and has no actual documentary basis.

northies are vikings, southies are middle-easterners

IT IS KNOWN

[LucildaHunta]

They live across the Silt Slit Sea.

Well played sir, well played.

[Kankfly]

Pretty sure I haven't seen a single person supplying a reasonable explanation for why we need to remove words in a game as harsh and racist as Armageddon. But the decision was made and staff have gone back on a total of 0 decisions in the decade I've been here. It's pointless to argue further.

If I remember right, it's wasn't because people were overly sensitve and immediately connected that word to the RL word and felt offended, but it was because there were some IG that was using it -like- the RL word.

For example:

Sup, necka?
How ya doin', necka?

And to others, it was jarring and immersion breaking, so they removed it.

[sleepyhead]

I'm pretty sure the common PC tropes of "northies are blond, southies are swarthy" is just player-created apocrypha and has no actual documentary basis.

It is actually in the docs. But the docs also say that northerners and southerners have interbred to the point that there's not much of a rule anymore.

[Refugee]

This shit is what I was afraid would happen when we started down this road.  So predictable.

And frankly, if the first argument had validity this argument, in my opinion, has more.

This time next year we will all sit around the fire circle in Luirs and sing Kum Ba Ya, all races holding hands and passing the spice.

[BadSkeelz]

Let's keep in mind that this was just a hypothetical shit-stirring thread. There's been no ruling and I don't know if anyone is seriously asking for one (I don't read threads). If this becomes the next Big Deal it's only because people forced it to become one.

On an unrelated note I'm saddened that I never got drunk enough the chance to sing "Don't Trust Them New Neckas Over There" in game.

[Inks]

That would be lame af and stuff like that was the reason for the change. Heh.

[RogueGunslinger]

Pretty sure I haven't seen a single person supplying a reasonable explanation for why we need to remove words in a game as harsh and racist as Armageddon. But the decision was made and staff have gone back on a total of 0 decisions in the decade I've been here. It's pointless to argue further.

If I remember right, it's wasn't because people were overly sensitve and immediately connected that word to the RL word and felt offended, but it was because there were some IG that was using it -like- the RL word.

For example:

Sup, necka?
How ya doin', necka?

And to others, it was jarring and immersion breaking, so they removed it.

Ive never seen or heard of someone using it like that. Ive been here a long time. If individual players are bringing anachronistic phrases into the game then those individual people should be dealt with.

As is i've seen slant-eyed more than ive seen someone saying shit like "whats up my necker".

Also staff have stated why they removed the word. It had nothing to do with being IC and everything to do with being politically correct and inoffensive.

[Dar]

Seriously. Has anyone. ANYONE on this thread ever saw someone saying, 'necka/my necka/etc in the game? Like EVER? Even 'one' instance of that would justify this whole nonsense, at least a little bit. Has anyone? Anyone at all? Even once?

[Kankfly]

It's what I heard, and I can respect the decision for that reason.

But I feel like since the decision has already been made, we should just move on and let things lie.

[RogueGunslinger]

Even 'one' instance of that would justify this whole nonsense, at least a little bit.

It really doesn't.

But I feel like since the decision has already been made, we should just move on and let things lie.

It will never be reverted, but this discussion might cause staff to think twice about censoring words to cater to the sensibilities of the type of people who shouldn't be playing this game.

I'm still of the stance that if the word necker is enough to offend you then this game is 100% not for you. We partake in racism that is FAR worse than calling someone the N-word.

[Cind]

One time my teacher was young, drunk and cruising in the car with his friends. They stopped at a burger place, maybe Krystal's, and got some burgers.

Everyone working there that night was black, and everyone in the car was white.

They get their food from the drivethru and at the bottom of the bag are packets of crackers.

I always liked that one.

[Hauwke]

Its playful racism like -that- that I think the world should have rather than the more blunt "Fuck you" racism that we have.

[Malken]

Adorable racism.

[Riev]

Pretty sure I haven't seen a single person supplying a reasonable explanation for why we need to remove words in a game as harsh and racist as Armageddon. But the decision was made and staff have gone back on a total of 0 decisions in the decade I've been here. It's pointless to argue further.

If I remember right, it's wasn't because people were overly sensitve and immediately connected that word to the RL word and felt offended, but it was because there were some IG that was using it -like- the RL word.

For example:

Sup, necka?
How ya doin', necka?

And to others, it was jarring and immersion breaking, so they removed it.

Ive never seen or heard of someone using it like that. Ive been here a long time. If individual players are bringing anachronistic phrases into the game then those individual people should be dealt with.

As is i've seen slant-eyed more than ive seen someone saying shit like "whats up my necker".

Also staff have stated why they removed the word. It had nothing to do with being IC and everything to do with being politically correct and inoffensive.

I had seen it used in game, though I think it was a subset of particular players doing it, and could have better warranted a "Please don't use necker in that manner, we are trying to avoid the OOC connotations" rather than a full ban. But it was being used like that. Just saying.

However, I'm on board with "I haven't seen someone use 'slant eye' in game" ever, and I've been here for ... what... 12 years or so? Unfortunately, in American society "the N word" (even I'm afraid to use it in a fashion that can be reproduced later) is just such a hot topic, that its better staff just quash it immediately. Its unfortunate for all the other races and terrible words that can be used, but this is also an adult game.

[bcw81]

Seriously. Has anyone. ANYONE on this thread ever saw someone saying, 'necka/my necka/etc in the game? Like EVER? Even 'one' instance of that would justify this whole nonsense, at least a little bit. Has anyone? Anyone at all? Even once?

Literally all the time. It was rare to find an elf that didn't speak like that.

[sleepyhead]

Yeah, seriously, just leave it alone. Can you imagine how bad it would look if staff walked back the necker decision now? They cannot and should not do it. Just...please stop pushing them to do more, even if it's just to make a point about hypocrisy or inconsistency or whatever. Just leave it be.

[RogueGunslinger]

Seriously. Has anyone. ANYONE on this thread ever saw someone saying, 'necka/my necka/etc in the game? Like EVER? Even 'one' instance of that would justify this whole nonsense, at least a little bit. Has anyone? Anyone at all? Even once?

Literally all the time. It was rare to find an elf that didn't speak like that.

Pretty sure I haven't seen a single person supplying a reasonable explanation for why we need to remove words in a game as harsh and racist as Armageddon. But the decision was made and staff have gone back on a total of 0 decisions in the decade I've been here. It's pointless to argue further.

If I remember right, it's wasn't because people were overly sensitve and immediately connected that word to the RL word and felt offended, but it was because there were some IG that was using it -like- the RL word.

For example:

Sup, necka?
How ya doin', necka?

And to others, it was jarring and immersion breaking, so they removed it.

Ive never seen or heard of someone using it like that. Ive been here a long time. If individual players are bringing anachronistic phrases into the game then those individual people should be dealt with.

As is i've seen slant-eyed more than ive seen someone saying shit like "whats up my necker".

Also staff have stated why they removed the word. It had nothing to do with being IC and everything to do with being politically correct and inoffensive.

I had seen it used in game, though I think it was a subset of particular players doing it, and could have better warranted a "Please don't use necker in that manner, we are trying to avoid the OOC connotations" rather than a full ban. But it was being used like that. Just saying.

The point still stands that staff didn't ban the word because people we're using it anachronistically. They banned it because people were getting offended by it and reporting it to staff.

Yeah, seriously, just leave it alone. Can you imagine how bad it would look if staff walked back the necker decision now? They cannot and should not do it. Just...please stop pushing them to do more, even if it's just to make a point about hypocrisy or inconsistency or whatever. Just leave it be.

People aren't trying to argue that more words should be banned. They're giving examples and drawing parallels in order to show staff they do not approve of the decision to ban the word necker.

Again this doesn't have to be to revert the change, it only has to keep it from happening more.

[sleepyhead]

People aren't trying to argue that more words should be banned. They're giving examples and drawing parallels in order to show staff they do not approve of the decision to ban the word necker.

I thought I made it clear that I know exactly what they're trying to do and what kind of point they're trying to make. But I don't think they should be doing it, because it is a lot more likely to backfire than to result in the necker ban being walked back.

[bcw81]

The point still stands that staff didn't ban the word because people we're using it anachronistically. They banned it because people were getting offended by it and reporting it to staff.

I'm well aware of that, that doesn't detract from the good that the ban has done in routing that problem.

[Riev]

The point still stands that staff didn't ban the word because people we're using it anachronistically. They banned it because people were getting offended by it and reporting it to staff.

I'm well aware of that, that doesn't detract from the good that the ban has done in routing that problem.

Possibly true, depending on the definition of the problem.

I think the major contention I still have with this, is that "Lensed Sunslits" were deemed anachronistic, and removed. Combat Gloves were deemed foolish, and removed. These were items that existed, and were removed from the game because of their design.

The term "Necker" is a word, not a construct that was created by the staff. Rather than deal with the people using it incorrectly, they blanketed a ban. That is likely an easier method. It got rid of the problem.

But I feel like its getting rid of the problem much like killing a rat in your house with a shotgun. It worked, the rats dead, but look at what else it caused.

[BadSkeelz]

It didn't cause anything except some forum handwringing by players overthinking things.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Lol adults getting offended by words. SMH

[BadSkeelz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOBoKxEcVAA

[SuchDragonWow]

R&M wins the thread.