The Importance of Teaching

[gotdamnmiracle]

As a player I find that the worst part of the game, and the least immersive, to be the grind. We all know it, we've all done it to some degree. If you want your PC to be of any kind of note then you will have to invest some amount in their skills and not only that, but you'll have to do it for a long time. The best way to forego that hassle is to have people teach your PC how to do something, just like in real life.

That being said, I feel like there's a bit of a stigma to using the command /Teach skill/ in game and I'd like to examine why. From a social standpoint it doesn't make much sense. There are a number of reasons in it's favor right off the bat.

Pros,

- RP. It's more immersive to have a veteran explain to me why I need to keep my shield up rather than just saying "Keep your shield up," in a small bit of combat that's essentially all up to chance.

- Bettering the troops. It makes sense from a clan standpoint considering that when that eventual fight against gith, kryl, the witch, etc. does occur I'd rather have Runner Amos at my side with Apprentice in his piercing skill than Novice.

- It reduces Clan PC spillage. This is somewhat related to above, but anyone who has played a leader knows that there will be tons of players who will leave the walls and die to a spider or simply store out. Teaching reduces that number in my opinion. Further, I imagine it reduces the number of boredom related storages too because it demands more character interaction than a training bout. My experience with this is solely my own, so it is admittedly anecdotal.

- It's more realistic. This doesn't have any bearing for me personally because I am willing to table realism if what I'm playing is fun. I can expound upon this more, but I think we can agree that in general you will discuss something before putting it to practice and then go over or build upon the lesson learned.

Lastly I have number of cons related to it's use, but they seem relatively weak in comparison.

Cons,

- Twinking. This seems like the most obvious problem, but in this case also seems relatively unlikely. For it to occur it would require two or more people to be onboard with the idea. I feel like from an RP standpoint if something seems excessive it probably is and staff will probably let you know if you're doing something you shouldn't. I imagine a warning would be enough in most cases to clear this up.

- School of Hard Knocks? I'm not sure what to call this one, but it's the same mindset behind hazing. It's essentially "I had it done to me so they should too." Or in this case " I had to grind, why shouldn't they?"

- Darwinism. This IS the game of murder, corruption, and betrayal. If you spend all you train someone to become more deadly that does raise the possibility that they could become a threat to you. I think this is easily defeated by the fact though that you have to be superior in a skill to teach it. There will never be a time where a pupil, from teaching alone, will ever be able to defeat the master. That said, the RP and story of such an interaction seems like it would justify the risk alone.


These are my thoughts. I'd like to hear what you guys think. Is it just that I'm encountering people who don't know that you can teach someone or possibly I'm not asking the right way? Please, let's hear what you've got.

[Melkor]

To be honest, i feel a huge reason why some characters avoid teaching is laziness. I teach affiliated newbies often, and each time dedicate a solid 30-60 minute RP session of a lession before using the teach command. In order to be IC, i feel this is obligatory, and many players would rather not dedicate that time to a character which will be extremely likely to die in the next month.

[sleepyhead]

30-60 minutes? I always RP before using the teach command, but damn. If that's really obligatory, I guess I was abusing the command without realizing it.

[Melkor]

Though I'm not staff, bud.  Im just a dude giving my opinion.

[gotdamnmiracle]

30-60 minutes? I always RP before using the teach command, but damn. If that's really obligatory, I guess I was abusing the command without realizing it.

Well, I think 30-60 minutes is a bit much, but the idea is right.

In a perfect world the scene would be something like, let's practice shield today, fights with shield, teaches lesson regarding shield as you recover, changes weapon while using shield still, final bout, call it for the night and discuss related story, because everyone loves cool stories. That's my formula at least.

[The Lonely Hunter]

I never got the feeling that people were hesitant to use the teach command just that they didn't want to RP teaching or maybe their character just didn't feel like it. Could it be that some newer players (~5 years) just don't know about the command?

I had a Byn Sgt once (Dagaz, a mul) that taught via lessons almost exclusively. He would give a small lecture, have someone demonstrate, criticize them, and 'teach'.

30-60 does seem a bit extreme - as a player, I would just get bored.

[manipura]

30-60 minutes? I always RP before using the teach command, but damn. If that's really obligatory, I guess I was abusing the command without realizing it.

I've used teach often, with certain characters more often than others. 
I think expecting a one hour session before using teach is a little extreme and unnecessary.  I don't think RPing lessons that are less than an hour is abusing anything.

Sixty minutes is six game hours and a day is only nine hours. 
That's like saying a person can't learn anything new about a skill in RL unless they undergo sixteen hours of learning. 

There's a grey area between tossing out a single emote and RPing two thirds  of a game day and I think somewhere in that grey area is nice middle ground for most players to properly use teach.

Mabe it's underused because players aren't aware it exists?

[sleepyhead]

I know it exists but I straight-up forget to use it. I can't be the only one.

[Melkor]

30 minutes takes you from dawn to high sun. Is it so unreasonable to spend a morning teaching someone? If the skill is ride, i would ride out with the noob give instruction throughout the day, and use teach at the end of the ride, near sundown.

[sleepyhead]

I don't find it unreasonable at all. I just didn't think it was required.

[Miradus]

I don't find it unreasonable at all. I just didn't think it was required.

I don't think it IS required. I've spent as little as 5 minutes before I threw out the teach command and nobody stomped me for it.  I really need to spend half a game day explaining to someone to keep their shield up?

It gives you (apparently) like a tiny tick of skill rather than turning you from a novice to a journeyman. If it gave more of a bonus then I'd say a longer time should be required for the RP, but since it's such a minor thing then why bother?

[Melkor]

If i use carpentry as an analogy, I couldnt teach a person shit about being a carpenter in 5 minutes. This is why an apprenticeship lasts for years before a carpenter reaches journeyman status.

[Miradus]

If i use carpentry as an analogy, I couldnt teach a person shit about being a carpenter in 5 minutes. This is why an apprenticeship lasts for years before a carpenter reaches journeyman status.

Sure you could.

"Don't stick your finger in the saw."

There. That took less than 30 seconds and you got .001 uptick on your Carpentry skill. Which seems to be about what the in-game teach skill is going to give you.

[Melkor]

If the teach skill is truly that insignificant, i would consider this a non-issue. But i do not believe the teach command imparts a 1/1000th of a percent of a skill. Meaning, to get from novice to apprentice without using said skill, the teach command would need to be used 100k times. I seriously doubt this.

[nessalin]

If the teach skill is truly that insignificant, i would consider this a non-issue. But i do not believe the teach command imparts a 1/1000th of a percent of a skill. Meaning, to get from novice to apprentice without using said skill, the teach command would need to be used 100k times. I seriously doubt this.

Skills are not measured below 1%.  They're integer values, so there are no fractions/decimal values.

Gaining from 0 goes to 1, not any value between zero and one.

[nessalin]

I had a Byn Sgt once (Dagaz, a mul) that taught via lessons almost exclusively. He would give a small lecture, have someone demonstrate, criticize them, and 'teach'.

Do you mean Davaz?

[gotdamnmiracle]

I was hesitant to mention that because it doesn't seem to follow. Assuming you're a veteran teaching a subordinate, you are gaining little from it, so you are doing it to their benefit. The lesson could easily be as little as three to four Tells long supported by a couple emotes. All done in a time period when you are just sitting there. Unless you're afking I don't see why you wouldn't use that.

[Melkor]

If the teach skill is truly that insignificant, i would consider this a non-issue. But i do not believe the teach command imparts a 1/1000th of a percent of a skill. Meaning, to get from novice to apprentice without using said skill, the teach command would need to be used 100k times. I seriously doubt this.

Skills are not measured below 1%.  They're integer values, so there are no fractions/decimal values.

Gaining from 0 goes to 1, not any value between zero and one.

Understood. (Edited) so, how significant is the teach skill, really?

[hexus]

PCs die so fast many times.
A few minutes spent brawling in the Gaj
with another PC can be opportunity to use
the command when some RP is squeezed
between coded echoes.
I taught a two weapon skill if I remember
right to a set new set of boots while
beating them up IG proper.
Seemed they loved it and sought further RP
often.
Its attractive to offer subtle aid even to an
enemy, not just folks drilled with that I like,
it struck me one day. I try of course to use
it sparingly with RP around every use.
The time spent is dependant on individual
circumstances and I like it that way.
Even saw a chance one to use the command
on one of my PCs own instructors while
showing someone else a few " tricks" like
avoiding fingers in the saw.
You guys rock.
Made me think how to better my own rp,
command use, and to lure new players
long enough to get over the command
hump to see what this game really offers.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Speaking from experience, you can go from novice to apprentice without ever touching the skill if the teacher is skilled enough. That's absolutely huge, and it justifies an appropriate amount of RP (5ish minutes in addition to practicing the skill is more than reasonable in my opinion, but I feel it's all personal preference)

I feel like staff won't dog you if you attempt to RP. There's a vast gap between teaching without saying a word or emoting once and attempting to paint a scene, even if it is a sloppy one. I've never encountered the former and I think it exists as more of a hypothetical pole than anything.

It exists in the same manner as a death scene. Think how little is added to the game when three very short hooded figures enter the same room without a word and type /kill amos/, silently attacking you. Imagine how angry that would make you. Use common sense and try to add something to the game, not add another notch to your belt, be it skilling up or pking.

[Melkor]

Gdm, youre spot on.

In that case, do you think players avoid teaching in order to avoid scrutiny from big brother?

[gotdamnmiracle]

Nah. I think it's lack of awareness and forgetfulness. If I had one request from my leaders IG it would be to try and use this command and RP (emphasis on the RP here) to make the most boring part of being in the Byn, AOD, Wyverns, and The Fist a lot more interesting by giving it a purpose as a lesson rather than just "That time of day when we hit eachother".

[Armaddict]

I have literally 0 qualms with teach being used, though I do think that overall it should be a sparingly used command.

My roleplay sessions before using it are usually between 5-20 minutes.  Simple explanations, since I'm not a professional in many of those things in real life, so there's some appreciation from me if you don't treat it like I just treated you like a moron.  I'm coming up with this shit on the fly, bear with me! XD

I think, largely, one of the 'veteran' concerns with using is from an era where twinking was far more prevalent, and also the concern that skyrocketing people in their capability will reduce their need for you.  It's always disappointing when you are a leader-type in a clan by skill, and training with you is a boon for that clan, but people basically use you for your couple teaches then bail on you.  It's just one of those things you use sparingly so that yes, you'll get it, but no, I'm not going to empower you to just go off and do your own thing at my expense.  I'm teaching you so that you'll help me, not so that you can skip the grind.

That may be an unpopular viewpoint with people.  But that's why I tend to spread out teach sessions over a long period of time.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Do you mean Davaz?

Nope, that was the Kuraci one. I believe Dagaz (mine in the Byn) was around prior to him but I'm not positive. They may have even been alive during the same time for awhile. I think Dagaz was somewhere between 2005-2007

[Lizzie]

If "novice" is 1-9 and "apprentice" is 10-19, and your novice rider showed up in the game with "xyz awesome stats" and was a half-elf with the correct guild/subguild and all the moons were aligned, then a single teach skill could absolutely bump the new PC to apprentice without the new player having ever even tried to mount a mount. That's because they started out at 9, and got that one point necessary to bump them to 10.

That's just an aside though.

Meanwhile, back on topic: I love the teach skill and I try to use it whenever appropriate. I'm not picky about how long it takes. It depends on what I'm "teaching." If I'm teaching someone how to use a thimble so they don't stick themselves with a needle every time they try and sew, then it'll take an emote and a "tell tailor-PC" and boom. They been teached. If it's teaching them how to ride and they claim they've never been on a mount before and their attempts are fucking up every single time - I'll spend a little more than that - maybe a solid 10 RL minutes of lessons on how to hold the reins, how to sit up in the saddle, how to use their knees and hold their posture, etc. etc.

If I'm in a situation where there's a schedule we have to adhere to anyway (like dawn to mid-sun), I'll just use that as my guideline and use the "teach" command before they break for a snack.