Main Desc Visibility With Hood, Cloak or Facewrap.

[Exen44]

I probably should have came up with this during the staff meeting or something and this has probably already been discussed at some point but here we go anyway.

The topic of discussion is exactly the title, it has always kind of bothered me that people could see somebody's main description even if they have a facewrap, hood, and closed cloaks or all three together. I feel like it leaves too much room to exploit it since people tend to just ignore the fact that logically they wouldn't know everything the main description presents and I've seen examples of this in-game where somebody does something illegal and when the witnesses are questioned they gave a complete 100% accurate description of the perpetrator to the word after catching just so much as a glance of him when he darts in and out of the room with the 'look' command. "Yeah, I saw him. Hold on, let me just scroll up a bit."

Now granted, not everybody is guilty of this. I have seen my fair share of people who respect the barrier between OOC and IC where they gave a vague description instead based on the armor they saw with the 'look' command and maybe a word or two out of the main description about something they'd see like if somebody has a missing hand that's probably something they'd notice. But sad truth is not everybody is going to take it like this, especially players that are new to the game or people who'd rather exploit this OOCly to further their gains. I mean, what's to stop someone from copying long descriptions of people they know and typing down the name, and then the next time they see them strolling about some place with their hood up and a facewrap on they're just like "Oh hey, Billy Boy. What's with that hood? lol."

This goes double for cloaks that specify that it perfectly conceals something or the other like this one here:

Code Select Expand

This dark-hooded cloak is the type most often used by those who do not
wish to be recognized, as it perfectly conceals the face when worn.  Made of
a cheap, stiff fabric, the cut is roomy and there are no details other than
straight seams and a sheer economy of work.

As you can see, it specifies that it 'perfectly' conceals the face when worn. Yet that's not the case, is it?

So say we wanted to change this, what kind of solution would we come up with? Just hide the main description completely and just judge it by the armor that's seen since the code seems to take this into account as for what shows when they have their cloaks open and closed? Make a script or something of that sort which takes in the characters height, weight, and maybe specify if they have any scars or dismemberment that might be visible despite what's covered? (like they do for armorless spots when checking out somebody's equipment).

I have absolutely /no/ idea, I'd say there's plenty of room for discussion about this topic if anybody shares my opinion. Anyway, I just thought it was something worth discussing to find like-minded people who might want to toss in a few ideas on what they'd do to solve this since obviously this would be difficult to do.

I'm not blind to the fact that without the main description being shown, it can also be easily exploited and without a proper solution make people practically invisible. That's why I'd like to hear other people's ideas on how to do this right. How would /you/ fix this? Does it need fixing? Etc.

Sorry if something here doesn't look right, I'm just doing some tired ranting. I'll edit things if I have to when I'm feeling better.

[Riev]

Just to prevent what I can already tell is going to happen: "Very few people have ever done this, and most of those who have, did it on accident".

But I want to counter with "You can't unring a bell". Once the Law knows who you are and what you look like, because someone made an honest mistake, you're still screwed.


So this is a topic that I DO like. Whether its a "disguise" skill that allows the mdesc to be re-written by the one using it. This would give BETTER reason for mirrors (granted you can still look self), and give people who are really good at disguises and writing mdescs shine. If it deteriorated like scribble code (unlikely) or even was just a timed status (random roll between <skill level>/10 hours, so that at like... 25 skill points its good for 2.5 in game hours at best... maybe less who care about numbers) so that you wouldn't KNOW when it would start to run out. Make it last even less if you're doing sparring or grebbing work (stuff that makes things sweaty, link it to hunger/thirst code so the less activity you're engaged in, the longer your disguise works).

So, really, the big issue I have with how things ARE isn't that people SPECFICALLY exploit it. Its that even an honest mistake, because of how the code and the game work, can cause problems

[Dresan]

The only way i see 'disguise' skill being implemented in a way that prevents abuse is for it to be part of two skills. Sap and backstab. If you use these skills, you probably want to keep your identity secret and would understand how to do so as part of your deadly skill, you would be in 'disguise' until you leave the room.

[sleepyhead]

Really, the best suggestion I've seen is for certain kinds of items to mask the mdesc as well as the sdesc, but you can use a "stare" command to get the concealed person's mdesc. However, staring at someone echoes to the room and has a fairly long delay--long enough for someone to run off or interrupt you in one way or another.

It's not perfect, because you shouldn't be able to know someone has a birthmark on their chin if their face is totally wrapped up, no matter how long you stare, but it's better than what we have and it seems like a good balance between relatively low staff workload and relatively low potential for player abuse.

[Miradus]

In my experience, you can be facewrapped, hooded, and in the pitch dark and as soon as your sap victim wakes up they either run to His Arm to snitch your complete description or they wake up naked and start Waying you with death threats about what they'll do to you "next time".

The only way to play a scumbag, I found, is to embrace the scumbag lifestyle. Get accused of mugging people? Tough patootie, Fruity. Did they catch you doing it? No? Then as far as the game code is concerned you didn't do it. Same as getting caught peeking in someone's bag as a pickpocket. Oh, you metagamed me and guessed it's me doing all the stealing? Try and catch me with the code.

Dealing with the RP consequences isn't too hard unless you're a fancypants Aide who gets his jollies mugging people in the street. His Arm and the Templars know a thug is gonna thug and so long as they get their piece of the action they overlook it until you mug someone important or until you get caught doing it.

[lairos]

I am sure only a few of us may be aware, but I think its old enough as has been out of the game long enough to discuss. There was actually one that would hide your mdesc previously, but I have not seen it in over twelve years. There used to be a select few roaming around. Anyway, my point is that they were removed for a reason, I am just unsure what it may have been. I have only seen a few instances where people take it to the extreme and abuse it, but it has been done. Mostly I have seen people mentioned various detailed items that they were seen wearing. Items that may have stood out compared to others. When you see them later with the exact same getup, height and build? Of course there are varying degrees of cover, but if your going to the extreme to cover it all up then having something would be nice.

Often times people get pointed at for things or mistaken. If you were not seen or followed by anyone else that could have ratted you out then often whether a mistake in identity or not a bribe could always set you on your way.

I am not opposed to Mdescs being hidden when wearing certain items, but I would hope the majority of players have enough sense not to do those things that are sketchy like that.

[sleepyhead]

I am not opposed to Mdescs being hidden when wearing certain items, but I would hope the majority of players have enough sense not to do those things that are sketchy like that.

I would say the majority of players do have the sense not to do that! The problem is that if you're a habitual ne'er-do-well, it only takes one player who DOESN'T have that kind of sense to ruin your day, and by "day" I mean "career." Some of them may be straight-up twinks, but others may just be new; newer players sometimes don't understand that just because you know something OOCly doesn't mean you know it ICly. Regardless of the reason, though, as soon as you encounter that one player who doesn't play along, the other 99 good sports that came along before him don't matter (in a practical sense, that is. You should still appreciate them and send them kudos, of course!)

Trust me. I briefly played a psionicist (though I doubtless didn't deserve the role) and I had to spend a huge chunk of my playtime OOCly wondering who was going to play along and who was going to immediately seize any possibly opportunity to "figure it out" ICly, at which point I would be Royally Screwed. The playerbase can be stellar as a rule, but again, it only takes one.

[Kalden]

Previous discussion (among others?): https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47453.0.html

Shadows of Isildur worked like this, altho shadowy characters were generally less powerful there.

[Bushranger]

I am not opposed to Mdescs being hidden when wearing certain items, but I would hope the majority of players have enough sense not to do those things that are sketchy like that.

I would say the majority of players do have the sense not to do that! The problem is that if you're a habitual ne'er-do-well, it only takes one player who DOESN'T have that kind of sense to ruin your day, and by "day" I mean "career." Some of them may be straight-up twinks, but others may just be new; newer players sometimes don't understand that just because you know something OOCly doesn't mean you know it ICly. Regardless of the reason, though, as soon as you encounter that one player who doesn't play along, the other 99 good sports that came along before him don't matter (in a practical sense, that is. You should still appreciate them and send them kudos, of course!)

Trust me. I briefly played a psionicist (though I doubtless didn't deserve the role) and I had to spend a huge chunk of my playtime OOCly wondering who was going to play along and who was going to immediately seize any possibly opportunity to "figure it out" ICly, at which point I would be Royally Screwed. The playerbase can be stellar as a rule, but again, it only takes one.

Which is why these mask items that completely shrouded your mdesc when worn were removed in the first place. This reasoning, it only takes one bad players, to ruin something works both ways. Some of the items were removed completely and others were just adjusted to remove that feature.

Templar says, "So this person who killed my aide you said you looked at them so describe them for me!"
Witness says, "They were wearing a generic rinthi cloak and a mask."
Templar says, "Ok so you didn't see their face. Were they tall? Short?"
Witness says, "I don't know, they were wearing a generic rinthi cloak and a mask."
Templar says, "Well were they human? dwarf? half-giant?"
Witness says, "I don't know, they were wearing a generic rinthi cloak and a mask."


Now you've made some suggestions to include height, weight, scars. Maybe? Then when it becomes the norm folks can say they were stooping, or they wore extra padding to change their body shape! Some MU*'s have it set up so you have certain sections of mdesc. Line 1 is about your eye colour, if you wear sunslits it's concealed. Line 2 is about your face,  if you wear a mask it's concealed. Line 3 is about your hair, if you wear a helmet it's concealed. This just takes away our creativity.

It's much better to trust in your fellow players even though there are sometimes twinks or people you think are bad players. They're not always out to catch thieves or murderers, just as often they are the thieves and murderers.

[John]

The reason the need hiding items were removed is because they were effective at allowing people to hide their identities, enough people got butthurt by it and kicked up enough of a fuss that the items were removed. Fast forward 12 years (I think it's been longer to be honesy) and almost nobody gets mugged because if you do it sufficient times the law of averages says someone will do your full mdesc in to the authoritirs).

That said, the crime aspect of Armageddon seems to be pretty good at the moment. We've had some big players wither currently or recently acting as antagonists and everyone else seems to be responding in appropriate ways that is creating engaging and compelling roleplay.

It's just there is zero anonymity involved.

At Bushranger: Assess -v will give you gender, height, weight and age (relative to your own). You should be able to work out race based on these, but maybe they're a corner case that leaves you guessing (not a bad thing). Identifying scars also appear in your equipment list (assuming not covered).

And yeah, people can be good sports. How many anonymous muggers/raiders have you played? How successful were you? Recent efforts are great, but they have hardly been anonymous.

[Bushranger]

Yes, Assess -V does this John and I would rely on it more than look at times but you would expect the look command to give you some indicators more than just the description of a mask and cloak.

Here is some more history on the mdesc concealing items. Not every item will conceal your mdesc, only those that are specifically coded to do so, and this means that they are valuable to those who want anonymity. More so than their coded obsidian cost. This means that cloak that conceals your mdesc can be sold by enterprising people for several thousand coins simply because of it's coded function and some people were doing that. Some people were hoarding them so that they (or their group) could be anonymous but others couldn't. Sometimes possession of a mask or cloak with this coded function was enough to be convicted of crimes and executed. Having certain coded items opens up more ways to twink than not having them.

And I don't think it's realistic to aim for long term anonymity as a mugger/raider. It's something that should be difficult to achieve.

An active mugger or raider who is ripping people off every week, or even every couple of weeks, and also wants to walk around Allanak and hang out in the Gladiator and the Gaj or Red's Retreat shoulder to shoulder with the T'zai Byn, AoD and House Employees doesn't seem like they would realistically survive long even if they try to take pains to maintain anonymity.

An active mugger or raider who is ripping people off every week, or even every couple of weeks, and who resides in the labyrinth or some secret camp or some settlement not connected to Allanak seems like they wouldn't need perfect anonymity.

It all comes down to your cake. Do you want it or do you want to eat it?

[sleepyhead]

I am not opposed to Mdescs being hidden when wearing certain items, but I would hope the majority of players have enough sense not to do those things that are sketchy like that.

I would say the majority of players do have the sense not to do that! The problem is that if you're a habitual ne'er-do-well, it only takes one player who DOESN'T have that kind of sense to ruin your day, and by "day" I mean "career." Some of them may be straight-up twinks, but others may just be new; newer players sometimes don't understand that just because you know something OOCly doesn't mean you know it ICly. Regardless of the reason, though, as soon as you encounter that one player who doesn't play along, the other 99 good sports that came along before him don't matter (in a practical sense, that is. You should still appreciate them and send them kudos, of course!)

Trust me. I briefly played a psionicist (though I doubtless didn't deserve the role) and I had to spend a huge chunk of my playtime OOCly wondering who was going to play along and who was going to immediately seize any possibly opportunity to "figure it out" ICly, at which point I would be Royally Screwed. The playerbase can be stellar as a rule, but again, it only takes one.

Which is why these mask items that completely shrouded your mdesc when worn were removed in the first place. This reasoning, it only takes one bad players, to ruin something works both ways. Some of the items were removed completely and others were just adjusted to remove that feature.

Templar says, "So this person who killed my aide you said you looked at them so describe them for me!"
Witness says, "They were wearing a generic rinthi cloak and a mask."
Templar says, "Ok so you didn't see their face. Were they tall? Short?"
Witness says, "I don't know, they were wearing a generic rinthi cloak and a mask."
Templar says, "Well were they human? dwarf? half-giant?"
Witness says, "I don't know, they were wearing a generic rinthi cloak and a mask."


Now you've made some suggestions to include height, weight, scars. Maybe? Then when it becomes the norm folks can say they were stooping, or they wore extra padding to change their body shape! Some MU*'s have it set up so you have certain sections of mdesc. Line 1 is about your eye colour, if you wear sunslits it's concealed. Line 2 is about your face,  if you wear a mask it's concealed. Line 3 is about your hair, if you wear a helmet it's concealed. This just takes away our creativity.

It's much better to trust in your fellow players even though there are sometimes twinks or people you think are bad players. They're not always out to catch thieves or murderers, just as often they are the thieves and murderers.

Differences in height are already visible in the sdesc of a cloaked person. So is weight to an extent. You can get something even more detailed if you assess -v the person. I don't think anyone is suggesting mdesc concealment should also conceal the person's height or weight.

Yes, the argument cuts both ways, but the solution I proposed (which I didn't invent) minimizes the problem on both sides, even though it doesn't eliminate it. I know there used to be mdesc-shrouding equipment that was removed because people abused it (and because people paid absurd sums for what ICly speaking were perfectly ordinary items.) Part of the problem, though, was that there was no way around the concealment. It was perfect. A "stare" command would make sure there was always a chance of being discovered. Again, it's not a perfect solution, but a perfect solution isn't possible without radically changing the way we do descriptions in Arm, and frankly, having seen the awkward and tedious location-by-location desc systems that some other MUDs have to combat this very problem, I'd probably never roll up another character again if we employed the perfect solution.

[John]

And I don't think it's realistic to aim for long term anonymity as a mugger/raider. It's something that should be difficult to achieve.

Do you think it should be possible, at all? Do you think it's really possible today in Armageddon without killing your victims/sniping them from hiding so they don't get to type "look figure"?

Also you haven't answered the question: Have you played a mugger? Do you think it's possible to play one in today's game longterm?

[Lizzie]

Sleepyhead, diff. in height only works if you're the same race or similar race. A short dwarf will see a human, half-elf, and elf as "extremely tall figure" and a tall elf will see a short breed, human, and dwarf as "extremely short figure." Now that they took the race out of the assess -v code (you used to be able to tell what race they are but players of half-elves complained too much so they took it out), it's impossible to know without seeing the mdesc.

And even then, there are some characters that slip past the approval process with very minimal mdesc info. Things like:

This person has blue eyes and long hair that reaches down to their
mid-back. The hair is dark brown and wind-tossed, and the blue eyes
are a bright azure. A tiny scar crosses a spot at the edge of the
hairline, and another on the tip of the left pinky finger.

---------------

So even if you CAN see their mdesc, with their hood up, what will you tell the templar?

Race: Dunno.
Height: Taller than me, so could be any race except for a HG or a dwarf.
Eyes: blue
Hair: long brown
Body type: dunno.
Fat/thin/gangly...: dunno
Male/female: dunno
What did they sound like when they talked to you?: Dunno, "tell" and "say" don't distinguish male/female voices when it's bright enough to see someone, only at night or in storms.
Age: Older than me, and I'm 25

And guess what the PC's sdesc is:

The lanky, gimp-legged young woman.

Not the same thing - but VERY often, VERY similar situations have come up. And I've typoed/idea'd every one, and to my knowledge, none of them were ever changed.

[Bushranger]

And I don't think it's realistic to aim for long term anonymity as a mugger/raider. It's something that should be difficult to achieve.

Do you think it should be possible, at all? Do you think it's really possible today in Armageddon without killing your victims/sniping them from hiding so they don't get to type "look figure"?

Also you haven't answered the question: Have you played a mugger? Do you think it's possible to play one in today's game longterm?

Yes, I have played a mugger. Yes I think it's possible to play one in today's game long term.

No I don't think it's possible to play one that regularly interacts with the people they mug.

The anonymity of a mugger isn't "I can't describe them" it's "here is a brief description" and no one in law abiding society recognizes them. The reason people are caught when a reasonable description of them is passed on is "Oh, that's Amos. I met him at Lord Fuzzlebottom's tea party last week. He's friends with Talia the Kadius Tailor. I think he's drinking in the Gaj right now!"

[Miradus]

So why is this a problem then?

Can you realistically expect to go around mugging people and then hang out at tea parties? I suppose you could IF you only mug the sort of people who don't go to tea parties and then laugh off any rumors that get around about how you were seen mugging people.

"Really? Me? What did I steal, darling, their chalton boots? Pass me another miniature barrel please."

There's all sorts of people who want to live a double life and I find that fascinating. I've caught people sawing the heads off dead orphans and found the tools and icons of merchant houses hidden in their backpacks. I've peeked inside cloaks of hardened, grizzled, no-nonsense warriors and seen a quirri-tailed thong inside.

I always think, "Hey, there's a multi-dimensional character here!"

But you always get caught sooner or later. Even if you knock them out flat and whisper in their ear what you'll do to them if they tell anyone, there's still plenty who will run to inform on you anyway, either not caring or thinking you don't really have the power to reach them a second time.

My favorite was the guy who Way'd me with "You robbed the woman I love. I will kill you." And I slipped back over to the street where it happened and the woman was still on the ground unconscious. How the heck did he know? Did he feel a sudden disturbance in the Force as if one lone grebber had suddenly lost their chalton boots?

The most fun in the game is to be had interacting with other people. It's why you play a MUD instead of Rimworld. But there are downsides to interacting with other people, and that's largely the fact that they are other people.

In most things Arm-related, there are IC consequences to your IC choices. Want to get some intense training for your combat life? Join the Byn. Downsides? You're in the Byn. Want to be a street thug? Embrace the street thug life and live on the rooftops and in the rinth, suffering the hardships that come with being a street thug.

You can't do everything at all times, and I think the desc-hiding items would do far too much harm. Every Byn runner or noble's aide would be out robbing people with relative impunity.

Of course then maybe a culture of independent "thief takers" (counter-muggers and bounty hunters) might arise and you'd get a richer, deeper Allanak from it.

So I can't decide if I'm for it or against it.

[Riev]

As I mentioned before, my bigger concern is just minimizing risk, which we're almost at now. Someone nailed it before, saying that New Players might not understand that because they see the Mdesc OOCly doesn't mean they might have missed it ICly, and/or aren't quite in the "I want to win" mindset that doesn't mesh well with Arm's oppressive feel.

However, I also feel that if I wanted to play a mugger of PCs, I would not be able to sit in the Gaj afterwards, sharing drinks, unless it was KNOWN that's what I do and I make sure the local cops don't care so long as they get a cut of it*.


* - Which I've done as a sort of "You can arrest me and make a big show of it, so that Justice is Served, but don't kill me. Your pay is on the table in your apartment the moment I walk out of here".

[sleepyhead]

Lizzie, if I was a 3-foot-tall dwarf (or however tall they are in Arm) or a 12-foot-tall half-giant I'd probably not be able to differentiate variations in height among humans all that well. Seems realistic to me that it's relative to your own height rather than the person's exact height in inches, which is almost never given in mdescs anyway. I mean, let's be serious. A lot of people are habitually picking the max height for their race and not even mentioning that they're tall in their mdescs, while there are other people who do mention that they're tall in their mdescs, but are dwarfed by the large proportion (not saying majority) of players who go for the max height, so it turns out that among PCs, they're not that tall.

In other words, correctly estimating height isn't an mdesc masking problem and mdesc masking would make it only marginally worse. Occasionally there will be an mdesc that says "a little over four and a half cords" or whatever, but for the most part the best you can hope for is a "tall" or a "petite" or whatnot, and there's no guarantee even then.

[Molten Heart]

.

[hexus]

Awesomely, Arm forces me to mature in RP constantly.
Player base is killer cool seems.
Newb catches me sideways...I try bring the IG example and include them if able.
Always want to add to our pool of cool kids.
Love current system even clunky as it may seem.
Use "change tdesc" frequent to detail the stuff mentioned above some.
Also started to think real hard about my intentions for long or short term survivability right from the name.
The Mdesc was so important....am I "dark haired,skinned,eyed" generic enough to blend keywords too?
That might seem a bit stretched on OOC but confusion is a proper tool in my humble opinion to use carefully.
To make point three dark hooded figures in a room one walks into.
If I want to write super-sexy Mdesc, I may want to think how to minimize it with mask,cloak,etc.
How one operates too is a huge factor for me. If striking in open expect greater threats. Looking for the proper opportunity to criminal up with no witnesses etc.
I imagine if my PC stood looking at a hooded figure and reached out with Way, their mind might be quite easy to contact. Barrier now becomes useful.
NPCs are given life in the Crime Code. Seems unless in an NPC devoid room, assume they all squealers wandering about.
Code sets a nice bar I think.
Anyhow, you all make this Alive. Thanx

[Eyeball]

Why not just add another step to the character application process: providing a description that is shown to others when you are hooded and masked. It could contain some but not all of your full desc features. For example, eye color should be evident even when a mask is worn.

[Lizzie]

Why not just add another step to the character application process: providing a description that is shown to others when you are hooded and masked. It could contain some but not all of your full desc features. For example, eye color should be evident even when a mask is worn.

I'd prefer to see *minimal* requirements (not suggested guidelines) for mdescs and a coded addition to the assess command.

MINIMAL:
Hair (any, color, length)
Skin coloring
Height, compared to their own race, with assess being more comparative to your character, personally - and the two have to actually match up. So a human whose mdesc says he towers over most people he comes across, who is actually assessing as "shorter" than my petite 5'1" character, needs staff to change either their mdesc or their coded height.
Eye color
Body type - fat, emaciated, average, something descriptive.
Gender - this is how the person APPEARS, whether they identify with it or not. There exists a code for non-gender-specific mobs - this should be an option in chargen. Either that or just tell people they have to include *visible* gender in their mdesc, in some way, shape, or form. And let's come up with an actual article besides "their/them/they" to describe non-specifics. Those are plurals, not genderless.

[LucildaHunta]

Why not just add another step to the character application process: providing a description that is shown to others when you are hooded and masked. It could contain some but not all of your full desc features. For example, eye color should be evident even when a mask is worn.

I wouldn't mind doing that.

[sleepyhead]

"they" has been used as an ungendered singular for a long time.

[Namino]

Why not just add another step to the character application process: providing a description that is shown to others when you are hooded and masked. It could contain some but not all of your full desc features. For example, eye color should be evident even when a mask is worn.

I wouldn't mind doing that.

I've played several muds with features similar to this and it works well.  We also need to remove keywords when concealed so people can't just keyword amos to check.

[Veselka]

Instead of Mdesc hiding (or at least as a feature) it would be great to remove sdesc keywords when you are wearing a hood or facewrap.

So, if someone is two rooms away wearing a mask or with a hood up, you can't 'Shoot Name West Far'.

[Molten Heart]

.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

"they" has been used as an ungendered singular for a long time.

Tbh I wish more people would embrace this. It's much less awkward than "he or she" or "it".

[James de Monet]

Instead of Mdesc hiding (or at least as a feature) it would be great to remove sdesc keywords when you are wearing a hood or facewrap.

So, if someone is two rooms away wearing a mask or with a hood up, you can't 'Shoot Name West Far'.

This would make it impossible to assist clannies in combat.  Or give anyone anything in the Labyrinth.  And a hood would become the ultimate Barrier.

[Lizzie]

"they" has been used as an ungendered singular for a long time.

Tbh I wish more people would embrace this. It's much less awkward than "he or she" or "it".

The code requires that you select male or female, and this determines other coded aspects. If you're in the next room, and you're male, my character will hear "a male voice." If I want to see if your character is wearing a signet ring (so I know whether or not to bow to him) and I type "look Amos's signet" and your character is a male, I will see "HE is not wearing anything like that." This is a text game, not a social sciences class. Your character is either male or female. My character will respond to whatever the code provides. I find "it" to be less awkward than "they." Though "he-she-it-whatever" serves just as well if the code hasn't yet instructed me which pronoun to use.

[MatisseOrOtherwise]

"they" has been used as an ungendered singular for a long time.

Tbh I wish more people would embrace this. It's much less awkward than "he or she" or "it".

The code requires that you select male or female, and this determines other coded aspects. If you're in the next room, and you're male, my character will hear "a male voice." If I want to see if your character is wearing a signet ring (so I know whether or not to bow to him) and I type "look Amos's signet" and your character is a male, I will see "HE is not wearing anything like that." This is a text game, not a social sciences class. Your character is either male or female. My character will respond to whatever the code provides. I find "it" to be less awkward than "they." Though "he-she-it-whatever" serves just as well if the code hasn't yet instructed me which pronoun to use.

"Oh, I know that person, they're in the Garrison!"

"Oh, I know that person, he-she-it-whatever is in the Garrison!"

"Oh, I know that person, it is in the Garrison!"

Uh.

Only one of those sounds right.


If you seriously say "he-she-it-whatever", or even "it" reflexively any time you don't know someone's whatsits, that's just something intrinsically wrong with you.

You don't need to lash out hardcore. This isn't some huge argument over hurdur trans rights or something, boo, this was an offhanded comment about what sounds good and should be used and done more.

[Delicious_Marinade]

"They" is perfectly fine. No one is asking for xim or xer here. It's not even a social justice issue. Jesus Christ. Stop derailing.

[Delirium]

Getting a little heated here... let's chill out, take a few deep breaths, and return to the topic at hand.

[Veselka]

Instead of Mdesc hiding (or at least as a feature) it would be great to remove sdesc keywords when you are wearing a hood or facewrap.

So, if someone is two rooms away wearing a mask or with a hood up, you can't 'Shoot Name West Far'.

This would make it impossible to assist clannies in combat.  Or give anyone anything in the Labyrinth.  And a hood would become the ultimate Barrier.
[/quote

True. Except you can target their hood or facewrap. It simulates how difficult it should be to figure out who the fuck is who in combat and so on.

The hood is the ultimate barrier already, if you don't know someone's name or sdesc already, and you spot them from a room away.

[KittenLicks]

I think what James de Monet means was that if your name isn't a keyword for you anymore (due to a hood removing it while being worn), then "contact Amos" will always fail for everyone, everywhere in the game, because while wearing a hood you aren't amos. It's much like how wearing a hood adds "figure" as a keyword, letting people "contact figure".

I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, James.

True. Except you can target their hood or facewrap. It simulates how difficult it should be to figure out who the fuck is who in combat and so on.

This would probably be a pain with multiple hooded figures. I think the way arma code works is that the most recent person that has spoken/moved/emoted/other stuff is on the top of the list when referring to things. So if you "tell figure" you'll tell the figure that most recently spoke, which could be really annoying, if you want to speak to Hooded Amos, but Hooded Samos keeps saying things across the room at his table.

If the problem is with "shoot amos north" maybe just have the shoot command not accept names?

[Dracul]

It's common RP for templars, nobility, etc, to demand you remove things that hide your face.

I'd be all for not 'magic items' but for every hood, cloak, facewrap, to take down your mdesc. Lower hood, msdesc available. l cloaked figure - all you see is equipment (which is waaay more identifying than 'color eyes') and height/weight.

I really like it was characters are described as what they typically wear, not by actually using keywords from their sdesc (unless it makes sense, often, ...its a keyword).

Keywords can also make the way really strange.

[James de Monet]

I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth, James.

If the problem is with "shoot amos north" maybe just have the shoot command not accept names?

Nope, that's what I was referring to.  And trying to interact peacefully/cooperatively with characters wearing hoods is waaaaay more common than someone using personal keywords to figure out who you are from a distance or shoot you in a crowd of same-cloaked individuals, IMHO.  If you know for sure someone did that, i would file a complaint, and let staff handle it.  Taking away keywords when cloaked seems like it would create 100 everyday problems to fix 2 incredibly rare ones.