Bringing Back Full Elementalists

[Akaramu]

Somewhat in response to this...

Every time I try to draft a reply to this thread I'm at a loss as to what to say that isn't something I've said already. So I'm bowing out. Feel free to discuss among yourselves.

In the end, no argument is going to change how players and staff feel, what they miss, what frustrates them, and whether or not they're still having as much fun as they used to. That's something we all have to decide for ourselves.

For instance, if Delirium says 'we can tweak mundane classes so they offer everything players miss about full elementalists' and I say 'even with tweaked skills, it's still a mostly mundane experience for me and I don't enjoy it' then that's just how I feel. No discussion, no argument, and no good staff intentions can change the way I feel about my personal gameplay experience. If it's not exciting to me then it's just not.

Maybe once enough time has passed everyone who doesn't enjoy the new Armageddon as much as the old one will have left, and everyone who's still playing will be happy. But by that point you'll have lost a large portion of the veteran playerbase you used to have. If staff wants active, motivated and happy players, maybe they should consider what players want vs what staff wants. Just putting that out there.

[Is Friday]

I've never really been a fan of full elementalists. They're boring to play imo and really lack in their ability to interact with the rest of the playerbase. Inevitably if you'd like to go "full magick" with a PC you have to spam your skillset until you're useful. Or if you don't want to spam your skillset and primarily be a roleplayer solo RPing... well... good luck surviving your first run in with someone that doesn't like magick (everyone).

So it's really just an isolated, silly role. I prefer the subguilds. At least you can lead a normal mundane life until you decide to manifest. And that means more interaction. Isn't that what this game is about?

[HavokBlue]

I've never really been a fan of full elementalists. They're boring to play imo and really lack in their ability to interact with the rest of the playerbase. Inevitably if you'd like to go "full magick" with a PC you have to spam your skillset until you're useful. Or if you don't want to spam your skillset and primarily be a roleplayer solo RPing... well... good luck surviving your first run in with someone that doesn't like magick (everyone).

So it's really just an isolated, silly role. I prefer the subguilds. At least you can lead a normal mundane life until you decide to manifest. And that means more interaction. Isn't that what this game is about?

I think that's an entirely valid opinion to have, but some people prefer to play differently and I'm of the mind that as much as we can (within reason) we should try to allow more varied play experiences, not less.

[Rokal]

I've never really been a fan of full elementalists. They're boring to play imo and really lack in their ability to interact with the rest of the playerbase. Inevitably if you'd like to go "full magick" with a PC you have to spam your skillset until you're useful. Or if you don't want to spam your skillset and primarily be a roleplayer solo RPing... well... good luck surviving your first run in with someone that doesn't like magick (everyone).

So it's really just an isolated, silly role. I prefer the subguilds. At least you can lead a normal mundane life until you decide to manifest. And that means more interaction. Isn't that what this game is about?

100% agree here.

I also agree with other posts where the society surrounding mage fear and disstrust has, in my opinon, been fueled into an OOC thing of hate. I've had multiple experiences where a mundane should be genuine terrified instead tries to fight a mage and try to kill them.

it just raises a lot of questions to me, how would this person, in character, know they have a chance? why is the first thing this person doing trying to rip a characters throat out when they've got clearly scary flashy magicks.

generally i've found people can seperate OOC from IC exceptionally well on arm, but when it comes to mages.. it just feels very, very different.

Maybe if people just extended a little bit of out of character trust to the players playing those mages, they might actually get some good RP?

I like playing mages for the sake of the mystery of it, and I try to give each mage I play its own quirks to their magick.

Honestly, the idea of avoiding mages makes sense, but there is nothing more infuriating then

amos spots gemmed
amos speed walks away after a single emote

mages are players too ,yo, gemmed or not. they're there to rp.

theres so much more to do then just speed walking away, or reacting instantly with violence ((Oh hey this gemmed has newbie gear on, i can beat them up np.))

Just how I feel about this all.

But i've played a lot of subguild magickers already and its been great fun.

honestly this thread has made me want to play again, i've been busy for a while!

[Feco]

I've never really been a fan of full elementalists. They're boring to play imo and really lack in their ability to interact with the rest of the playerbase. Inevitably if you'd like to go "full magick" with a PC you have to spam your skillset until you're useful. Or if you don't want to spam your skillset and primarily be a roleplayer solo RPing... well... good luck surviving your first run in with someone that doesn't like magick (everyone).

So it's really just an isolated, silly role. I prefer the subguilds. At least you can lead a normal mundane life until you decide to manifest. And that means more interaction. Isn't that what this game is about?

100% agree here.

I also agree with other posts where the society surrounding mage fear and disstrust has, in my opinon, been fueled into an OOC thing of hate. I've had multiple experiences where a mundane should be genuine terrified instead tries to fight a mage and try to kill them.

it just raises a lot of questions to me, how would this person, in character, know they have a chance? why is the first thing this person doing trying to rip a characters throat out when they've got clearly scary flashy magicks.

This is highly situational, and probably hard to judge from the perspective of the elementalist.  As an example, you may be dealing with a PC who's gone toe to toe with magickers on several occasions.

[Akaramu]

I've never really been a fan of full elementalists. They're boring to play imo and really lack in their ability to interact with the rest of the playerbase. Inevitably if you'd like to go "full magick" with a PC you have to spam your skillset until you're useful. Or if you don't want to spam your skillset and primarily be a roleplayer solo RPing... well... good luck surviving your first run in with someone that doesn't like magick (everyone).

So it's really just an isolated, silly role. I prefer the subguilds. At least you can lead a normal mundane life until you decide to manifest. And that means more interaction. Isn't that what this game is about?

100% agree here.

I also agree with other posts where the society surrounding mage fear and disstrust has, in my opinon, been fueled into an OOC thing of hate. I've had multiple experiences where a mundane should be genuine terrified instead tries to fight a mage and try to kill them.

it just raises a lot of questions to me, how would this person, in character, know they have a chance? why is the first thing this person doing trying to rip a characters throat out when they've got clearly scary flashy magicks.

This is highly situational, and probably hard to judge from the perspective of the elementalist.  As an example, you may be dealing with a PC who's gone toe to toe with magickers on several occasions.

I've noticed the same thing, and it's not just a few isolated cases. It's actually more common than characters who roleplay being afraid of magick.

I don't do player complaints because I'm sure some of those characters have legit IC reasons for doing what they do. It's just the sheer quantity of them that bothers me.

[Armaddict]

I've noticed the same thing, and it's not just a few isolated cases. It's actually more common than characters who roleplay being afraid of magick.

I agree that this is highly situational, both on the characters and the scenario.  However, altogether, I consider it the same side of the coin about player versus gameworld view of magick as a whole; the same way people are likely to view magick as useful and therefore bypass social stigmas, so too are people likely to view a scary mage as not scary.

I will, however, say...if you come into a scene fully intent on scaring the piss out of someone with magick, it will probably succeed.  If you use that same intent but with the intent of controlling them through fear, you're more likely to provoke a negative response.  Likewise, for those mages who like to publically threaten curses on people and such (which is just as common as above), they're more likely to draw the unwanted attention of those characters who are confident in their ability to stop them.

In other words, you're a mage.  People ostracize you, marginalize you, and to varying degree, fear you.  Don't try to turn that into a power-asset over other characters, or you'll draw other people in the 'power game'.

[Feco]

It's also worth noting that fear leading to violence isn't outside the norm.

[Akaramu]

It's also worth noting that fear leading to violence isn't outside the norm.

How often does this happen in real life? It's not the norm. MOST people who are afraid avoid the thing that makes them afraid. Especially when said thing isn't making an active effort to intrude in their everyday life.

Otherwise we'd hear news stories about mass murder of snakes and spiders in public zoos. 

[Marauder Moe]

You're talking to Americans.  We've toppled several countries halfway around the planet due to fear of terrorists.

[BadSkeelz]

mon un allahu akbar

Really, if people fear something they will attempt to destroy that thing, with the only check being fear of being destroyed themselves. Most Zalanthans, on meeting a rogue mage in the desert, would not say "Hey fuck you wiggler you piece of shit why don't you go play HogwartsMUD" because it would lead to them getting blasted. But if you knew there was a magicker who maybe wasn't that strong, or was distracted or otherwise vulnerable? The temptation to strike while the magicker is weak could easily outweigh the fear of magick in general.

[Akaramu]

But if you knew there was a magicker who maybe wasn't that strong, or was distracted or otherwise vulnerable? The temptation to strike while the magicker is weak could easily outweigh the fear of magick in general.

How would you know this, if you hadn't studied magick yourself somehow? Would you even know if it matters whether that mage is distracted or not? What if you are automagickally set on fire the instant your sword makes physical contact with that mage?

People attack mages because they OOCly know that mage is 'new' and probably not that dangerous. And because they OOCly know how spells are cast. I'm not convinced they would know this IC.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd start by killing all the young ones or those having to salt for a living, personally.

[Akaramu]

Even the old, super powerful ones might decide to go salting. And age doesn't mean much. There have been some incredibly powerful mages that were young.

[wizturbo]

I'm not playing Armageddon at the moment, and that's largely because it feels like the remaining roles that are still around after the purge require too much time investment.

During busy periods of my life, I tended to play elementalists because I felt like I could engage with the game in a more casual way while still being able to do stuff.  The nature of the elementalist guilds actually seemed to benefit from shorter, less frequent play times.  For instance, magickers have fewer social options so they tend to have less social obligations.  They also require less of a grind to feel like you're progressing, and their spells typically enabled more 'solo' play style options depending on the element.  All of these things made for perfect 'casual' characters that I could enjoy without commitments. 

The subguild options do not provide this kind of experience.  They have more social options, require more grind, and the elements that supported solo playstyles in the past were either removed or their spells split up in ways that limit that kind of behavior.

In short, if full elementalists were around I'd roll one up today and happily play a few hours a week for the foreseeable future.  But, without these roles to draw from I don't see many enjoyable options for me to play Armageddon right now. 

[lostinspace]

I've been thinking about this, as well as the 1 character I've played with a magic subguild. I'd say that by and large the most frusturating thing to me was that I could not cast a spell with a weapon in my hand. Full elementals always had a solution to this problem. From the limited time I had on a subguild, it did not seem like this problem would ever go away.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I've been thinking about this, as well as the 1 character I've played with a magic subguild. I'd say that by and large the most frusturating thing to me was that I could not cast a spell with a weapon in my hand. Full elementals always had a solution to this problem. From the limited time I had on a subguild, it did not seem like this problem would ever go away.

Redacted

[Hauwke]

Maybe he didnt play after that one spell was put in. But thats not really the point. I was also told not to talk about said spell by staff so w/e.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Should I self moderate?

[boog]

Zalanthas =/= real life, doe.

[Hauwke]

Eh its been said. And come to think of it I wasnt told to not talk I was told to work it out for myself. But now I know!

[Brytta Léofa]

What would it take to capture the spirit of what Akaramu thinks she's missing now without breaking what staff are trying to do?

Concept: a mage who's spent most of his life as a gemmed elementalist.
- Spell tree incorporates about 2/3 of the available spells for that element.
- Require pairing with an extended subguild OR give a grab bag of mediocre-capped mundane skills.
- LITERACY (with strict guidelines, akin to what GMH family have to deal with).

Obviously sirihish literacy for any commoner would be a retcon. But it might be worth it to give a broader ecosystem for Magickal Lore and a playground for people who want to develop a magic-focused character.

[Synthesis]

I'm not playing Armageddon at the moment, and that's largely because it feels like the remaining roles that are still around after the purge require too much time investment.

During busy periods of my life, I tended to play elementalists because I felt like I could engage with the game in a more casual way while still being able to do stuff.  The nature of the elementalist guilds actually seemed to benefit from shorter, less frequent play times.  For instance, magickers have fewer social options so they tend to have less social obligations.  They also require less of a grind to feel like you're progressing, and their spells typically enabled more 'solo' play style options depending on the element.  All of these things made for perfect 'casual' characters that I could enjoy without commitments. 

The subguild options do not provide this kind of experience.  They have more social options, require more grind, and the elements that supported solo playstyles in the past were either removed or their spells split up in ways that limit that kind of behavior.

In short, if full elementalists were around I'd roll one up today and happily play a few hours a week for the foreseeable future.  But, without these roles to draw from I don't see many enjoyable options for me to play Armageddon right now.

You don't have to grind to be a solo-competent ranger, much less a solo-competent ranger/gicker, even around Allanak.  It's actually vastly easier (read: less dangerous) for a ranger to skill up to slightly-more-than-moderate competence, due to the existence of one local grind-friendly mob that can only be spotted with maxed scan.

If you want to be a complete badass...yeah, you probably have to grind.  But rangers have always been indie solo-friendly.  People have been getting out there and rangering it up from day zero since the beginning of time.

The grind is really only an issue for warriors (because all the combat skills level up slow as fuck) and assassins (because it's hard to get adequate combat training outside of a clan, and it's hard to get adequate stealth training inside a clan).

[Armaddict]

Synthesis speaks truth on that front.

[Akaramu]

Maybe Wizturbo just isn't interested in ranger roleplay? *shock*

Different players like different kinds of roles. That's how it is and always will be.