Bandage

[Hauwke]

Wouldnt it be nice to have a suture kit IG.
For the things a bandage shouldnt be able to fix. Maybe have it act as a multi-use bandage.

[Melkor]

No! Bad Hauwke! You're getting distracted again. I think RP solves that issue perfectly. What RP doesnt solve is the pass/fail rate for a maxed physician tending to minor wounds.

[Riev]

There are items in game that can KINDA do those things, Hauwke, but I think Melkor is right in that the RP of the scene can set those. It'd be nice if there were tools that increased your bandage skill, but I don't think its necessary.

I think the skill should be affected by the bandage skill level, and a base healing factor dependent on the bandage.

Scrap of cloth: 4hp
Regular bandage: 8hp
Advanced bandage: 12hp

Then based on your skill, you get a +/- based on whether you succeed or fail.

Novice through Master determining +1 through +5(ish).

So if you succeed as a novice with a scrap of cloth, you can do between 4-5hp healed. If you fail, since you only have a +1, you can do up to 3hp damage.

As you get higher levels, your bonuses get higher, but so do the risks. So if you use an advanced bandage at Master, you can heal for 12-17hp on a success, and when you fail you can do up to 7hp damage.


Obvioulsy the numbers could change, but that's how I see it. Let advanced bandages possibly cause more harm than simple cloth wrappings, but mitigate the damage by skill. An absolute idiot using some mastercrafted herb-steeped bandage isn't going to know how to set it properly against the wound, or whether to wrap over the wound or beside it. So if they succeed, great HP, but if they fail, they can do a lot more harm than good. Better to stick with scraps of cloth so if you fail, its not so bad.

[Melkor]

You lost me at "Whether to wrap over the wound or beside it." All of my whats.
And again, I dont think a quality bandage would be harder to use than a junk bandage. The salve bandages and herb-steeped ones are better because they numb the wound, and likely have antiseptic properties. Honestly, I think Zalanthans would have pretty amazing immune systems, where local bacteria woulld probably not even cause infection, so antiseptics are mehhh as far as healing benefits IMO. Now numbing? Numbing a wound =/= better healing. In fact, pain and inflammation walk hand-in hand, and inflammation increases blood-flow to an injury, which is conducive to faster healing. This is why cold and hot compresses are used in tandem. Cold to numb the pain, warm to open blood vessels.

Another again, we are getting into murky waters of trying to conform a game to real-life. This is not even necessary. RP compensates for that.

I see bandages as a thing that facilitates RP. Like, you rp setting branches/bones on a broken limb and THEN wrap the splint with the bandage. Or you RP burning a wound shut with an obsidian blade sitting in a fire, THEN cover the wound with bandage.

Just make the code reasonable. lol.

[Riev]

Except that there are clearly levels, and quality, in bandages. Which is why I'm arguing for a semi-realistic and usable method of bandaging in the game.

I'm at work and haven't had breakfast, so I'm delusional at best. Most of what I say is nonsense. However, we clearly have dirty scraps of cloth, clean linen, and advanced soaked bandages. There are already distinctions whose mechanics I'm not privy to, I'm just making a suggestion on how I think they could work better.

I'm not RPing using a 200coin bandage to save your life, there are coded benefits to it. I'm just suggesting that you don't get to heal for 20hp at Novice because you used a fancy bandage, and if you fail it "didn't fail as bad". Code is not reasonable, but at least try to come up with "how it could be reasonable" than "make it better".

[Melkor]

I already said your first idea was perfect.

The high default failure rate may also be intended, not just "because Zalanthas" but because of the coded ability of healing someone like that.

LikeI said, I'd like to see the numbers changed, so higher skill was less "pass or fail" and more "the higher the skill, the more 'positive' HP is affected". So if you fail, at a high skill, you don't lose 12hp a hit.

[Riev]

Right, but mechanically how does that actually work? If you pass, you get a modifier based on your skill level, but if you fail you get the same bonus, so instead of losing 12hp standard, you might only lose 7?

I'm just trying to work out HOW that would work, especially considering we already have quality bandages coded in game. If you fail, should lose 4hp but have a +5 modifier, what happens?

[Melkor]

I think failing a bandage and causing damage is a dumb premise to begin with.


edited to add: Eh.... At least at experienced levels of the bandage skill. If a novice level bandager tries to suture a wound or cauterize one, sure, I see some damage taking place.

Now, a maxed physician? Come on.

But even a novice knows how to wrap cloth around a minor wound.

[Synthesis]

If Armageddon continues to survive and evolve, eventually a location-based damage system will go in, I'm sure.

Hitpoints are a total joke, in general.

[Synthesis]

jman bandage

using scraps of cloth

failed for -1 hp

succeeded for +3 hp

failed for -2 hp

succeeded for +15 hp

-3

+8

Doesn't seem to be broken in the "useless" direction.  Granted, that's a small sample size, but it's the only hard data that's been offered so far.

+14 (jman, scrap)

[Sadus]

It'd be nice if there were tools that increased your bandage skill, but I don't think its necessary.

Maybe there are?  Find out IC.

[RogueGunslinger]

If there are you can just say there are. It's not something that needs to be found out in-game.

[Synthesis]

jman bandage

using scraps of cloth

failed for -1 hp

succeeded for +3 hp

failed for -2 hp

succeeded for +15 hp

-3

+8

Doesn't seem to be broken in the "useless" direction.  Granted, that's a small sample size, but it's the only hard data that's been offered so far.

+14 (jman, scrap)

-5

+10 (jman, scraps)

Still doesn't seem to be horribly broken.

If your success rate are deviating remarkably worse than this with advanced bandaging...again, my guess is that it's a stat, encumbrance, or effect issue.

[Sadus]

If there are you can just say there are. It's not something that needs to be found out in-game.

Oh, okay.  There are.  One of the GMHs sells them.  One of them seems to give a pretty massive boost to bandage.

Probably be pretty nifty for a Physician.

[Synthesis]

jman bandage

using scraps of cloth

failed for -1 hp

succeeded for +3 hp

failed for -2 hp

succeeded for +15 hp

-3

+8

Doesn't seem to be broken in the "useless" direction.  Granted, that's a small sample size, but it's the only hard data that's been offered so far.

+14 (jman, scrap)

-5

+10 (jman, scraps)

Still doesn't seem to be horribly broken.

If your success rate are deviating remarkably worse than this with advanced bandaging...again, my guess is that it's a stat, encumbrance, or effect issue.

-3
+10 (jman, scraps)

-4 (jman, basic bandage)
-8 (jman, basic bandage)
-6 (jman, basic bandage)
-4 (jman, scrap)
+12 (jman, scrap)
-9 (jman, scrap)

Note:  This entire run was done under what I strongly suspect is an adverse condition (if not 2 adverse conditions), which adds some evidence to support what I suspected all along.  Obviously I can't be certain without access to the code, but it appears that failure rate and damage increased during this (these?) condition(s?).

That is:
Failure rate without condition:  44.4%
Mean health lost on fail without condition: -2.75hp/fail

Failure rate during condition:  75%
Mean health lost on fail during condition: -5.67hp/fail

Pay attention to every bit of information that is available to you and/or your PC during the times your bandaging skill seems to suck ass, and you might eventually figure it out.  I don't think this is a bug, since both potential conditions were presumably intentionally coded to result in increased skill failure rates.

[Melkor]

If the adverse condition is "I am wearing a heavy pack, so I cannot bandage a moderate wound," Then that is also something I think should be addressed.

I'm with you when you spoke of a location-based damage system as opposed to HP. That would be greeeaaat.

[Synthesis]

If the adverse condition is "I am wearing a heavy pack, so I cannot bandage a moderate wound," Then that is also something I think should be addressed.

I'm with you when you spoke of a location-based damage system as opposed to HP. That would be greeeaaat.

Encumbrance isn't one of the conditions I've specifically tested (yet), but it's fairly obvious that encumbrance now has a rather large, global effect on agility-based rolls.  Even if 'bandage' doesn't have an agility modifier (there's no way to know that for sure), on the off chance that it does, why -wouldn't- you routinely dump your pack and lower your encumbrance before performing -any- potentially agility-based task, when that's a reasonable option?

[Melkor]

Okay. Lets say I am a bynner out in the wastes (Im not) and after tangling with some gith, I want to wrap up a puncture on my wrist.... Then I proceed to take off my pack, my breastplate, my helmet, my weapons, my bandolier/satchel and drop them all in the sand to get my encumbrance down to increase the likelyhood of succeeding wrapping a minor/moderate wound on my wrist.....

This screams twink. At most, I would remove the bracer on the arm in question.
This reminds me of a guy I once sparred with. Took off all of his armor, his belt, his boots, etc. and said "Its important to be light when you fight the X"
And I replied "....... You take off your belt to fight the X, do ya?"

Twinky behavior is lame. Im not gonna take shit off for a better roll.

[Synthesis]

If your goal is to be as quick as possible in sparring, sparring as light as possible is not being a "twink."

Taking your pack off and packing it on your mount while you do some kind of agility-related task is not twinking.

But...I guess if you want to continually handicap yourself just to be contrarian, that's your call bro.

To flip it around:  I could make the claim that it is twinkish to constantly be walking around in armor and gear so heavy that it makes routine tasks difficult for your PC....

But anyway...this whole encumbrance thing is just a derail.  It is what it is.  You can plan accordingly or not.

[Riev]

At this point Melkor, I think you're asking for more discrete code than even Arm's advanced DIKU codebase can handle. Its becoming less about "make the numbers make sense" and more "It should work better at <x> encumbrance".

[Feco]

No one is going to think you're a bad roleplayer for using "pack mount" and quickly getting to work.

It's a game, fam.

[tapas]

A more robust injury code might be nice. Something as simple as an injury flag that's visible to other players, reduces max hp, skills and movement speed.

If physicians were given a way to fix injuries, they'ed have a use beyond just topping up low hp.

[Melkor]

+1 tapas

[Delirium]

No one is going to think you're a bad roleplayer for using "pack mount" and quickly getting to work.

It's a game, fam.

[burble]

Change bandage to poultice.
Change the message to say "you apply some herbs to the drov chakra and attempt to wrap it in sandcloth"

Then the dependence on agility would make sense. Envision balancing some plant leaves on a body part, keeping them in place while you wrap the offending chakra. You won't be doing that easily with your pack shifting around on your back.
Now the damage makes sense. You probably aren't helping with whatever you attempt since your model of how the body works is incorrect.

Afterwards advise drinking the blood of a wiggler mixed with crushed elf toes and a bit of dwarf ear just to ward off bad humors.

I wonder does some house/book in the game have a model of how/what injuries and illness were treated according to Zalanthian knowledge?  Energy flows, elements, bloodletting?

My only beef with the bandage code is the one time I actually wanted to use it was years ago - found a guy was in that dying stage, unconscious - I got the "you don't have the skill" message. Old ranger, master, blah blah blah couldn't do anything so what's the point.