Intergrating Elementalists

[Angela Christine]

Being a magicker is unplesant, and I suppose it is supposed to be.  ICly magickers are widely reviled, so they shouldn't be having a good day.  OOCly, keeping magicker roles unpleasant helps keep magickers rare, if it were fun to be a magicker then everybody would want to be one.  :roll:  Still, isolated magickers don't add much to the environment.  Having a handful of tame PC elementalists who spend most of thier time in the temples, that no one will talk to (usually not even to insult them) is kind of pointless.  They live in the city, but they are effectively iso-characters.  Hidden magickers that hide in a hole and cast until they get powerful don't add much either.  "Dark secret" mages that are part of society aren't isolated, but they are barely magickers at all, instead they are basically bland characters who have to find jobs that don't require coded skills while they wait to be discovered and then go out in a blaze of glory (or just a blaze).  A tribal mage will usually get to RP within his tribe, but will probably have to avoid revealing himself to outsiders, so his RP circle is also quite limited.  
 
I was pretty excited and curious about mages when I started playing, but when I finally had the Karma to play one I was a little disapointed.  The magic system is great, but the obvious roles available are dull and lonely.  I don't think I'm the only one that has felt that way.  

So I've been wracking my brain, trying to think of roles where you could be a known mage without being isolated.  Many mage abilities can't be fully exploited in isolation, for example a Vivaduan who only heals himself is boring and serves no useful purpose.  (I hope that wasn't too IC sensitive, most people know water mages do healing).  The classic D&D adventering parties with a few fighter types, one or two sneaky types and a couple magick types really seems to be the most adventageous way to go.  Yet I don't see mages being used in most organizations.  Here are some ideas I've come up with so far, please add your own!

:arrow: Nenyuk Mage -  Come on, PCs are so desperate for housing that even if the Nenyuk agent was known to be a mul defiler people would be lining up to see him.    They wouldn't like it, but they'd talk to him, and they'd damn well pay their rent on time too!

:arrow: Merchant Mage - I haven't seen anything to indicate that merchant house families are immune to being born mages, or that they refuse to hire mages, but I haven't seen any merchent house mages either.  Much the same as Nenyuk, In some places people are desperate for certain special orders, with long waits when the local PC representative dies and no one else wants the job OOCly.  If you want that ankle-sheath with the gold buckle bad enough you'll talk to a merchant mage.

These first two are sort of similar, all merchant houses.  I think these could work really well, putting two slow roles together to make a more complexe role.  Merchants end up sitting around with nothing to do for long periods, and your local Nenyuk can't exactly start burning tubers or skinning hides to pass the time.  So you cast for a while, available via the way if anyone wants you, and then go sit in a tavern for a while to regain your strength and make a visible presence.  You get the chance to explore your magickal potential without needing to mine salt, gather sticks, or do something even more dangerous to pay the rent.

:arrow: Combat Mage - As was mentioned durring the recent player-staff meeting, most newbie mages are really bad in combat.  Still, they could be great in a supportive role.  A Vividuan is like a bottemless waterskin that carries itself!  This is a less passive role than most open mages are stuck with.  You actually go out and do stuff, and use your skills to help your organization.  Oh, the orgasmic glory of being useful!  The problem is that it seems really unclear who would hire and _use_ a mage.  Nobles and Templars will hire mages, but then often don't have anything for them to do but stay in the Temple and cast.  Why bother joining a clan at all if that is all you get?  Most of the merchant houses are supposed to have active hunters and scouts, this is something mages could be helpful with but I don't think I've ever seen a known mage openly working for a merchant house.  Nor have I seen any in the 'Byn.  A mercenary mage has tremendous potential, but they don't seem to have any (at least none they admit to) and on the whole the 'Byn seems pretty anti-mage.  

:arrow: Servant Mage - You aren't hired to be a mage at all, it is just a "hobby" you persue on your own time.  No, you are a cook, a tailor, or some other mundane occupation.  You probably aren't allowed to practice magic on the clan property, but the people who work with you know that you are a mage so you can still be magey and throw out the occasional mystical emote while you dust the hall.

Obviously merchant houses and mercenary companies couldn't station mages in Tuluk, and being gemmed would prevent you from ever going to Tuluk, but why not in the rest of the world?  Am I missing something, or is it just that no one has bothered to try?  If more southern clans were open to hiring mages, then that might provide something novel that the north wouldn't have, a reason for people to create southern characters.  Not just to be mages, but if you want to have a character that has to deal with working with dirty, baby-eating magickers, a character that doesn't like mages but that still has an excuse to interact with them.  Putting mages in clans seems like a win-win situation to me, so I don't know why I rarely see any mages in clans, and then usually just noble clans?

Any thoughts?

[CindyLou]

Once upon a time, there were mages in a certain southern noble house, known for hiring mages.

If those mages actually DID anything with their magics, other than get better at them, I never learned. Most of my interaction with them consisted of my character first being reviled, then astounded, then curious, then fascinated when watching them practice their spells.

Once upon a time, one of those mages actually used their magic for something necessary to their house and "important." And then died. I never saw a gemmed mage officially employed by a noble house use their magics for anything else after that.

I've seen mages employed by noble houses use their magics, but not for any official purpose that I can recall. Usually for "other reasons" that had little or nothing to do with their employment.

I did have a magicker PC employed by a house once.. and it was gonna be awesome too. But unfortunately that PC died before she could branch the spells needed to be useful -as a mage- for that house.

I'd explain, but it's too IC. Suffice it to say, if noble houses aren't hiring mages, it's a pretty new trend. Or - maybe they are, and the mages aren't identifying themselves as such, to the general public, on purpose.

[Hoodwink]

The classic D&D adventering parties with a few fighter types, one or two sneaky types and a couple magick types really seems to be the most adventageous way to go. Yet I don't see mages being used in most organizations.

You shouldn't see mages being used in most organizations, because nobody wants to have the negative image it provides.  In the D&D setting you describe mages are gnarled old men with pointy hats named Gandalf who ride unicorns and tame mighty dragons, and everyone loves them.  Not so in Zalanthas.  There are a number of organizations in Arm who will employ mages unbenounced to the rest of the world, and while it may be considered boring to some, this thankfully prevents everyone and their brother from desiring to play a mage.

Also, where you said:

Hidden magickers that hide in a hole and cast until they get powerful don't add much either

I disagree.  The best mages, in my opinion, are the ones who are trying to be the "bad guys" and to help maintain the fear of magick.  The hidden mages who cower in some hole until they get powerful, and one day manifest, launching their powers upon the world are the best kind.  

Mages in temples probably interact more than you might think, especially since they are a tool of the templarate.  I remember one templar who made regular patrols while online through the elementalist quarter, looking to see what new PC elementalists there were at her disposal.  Bravo to that, I say.

All in all, I think the spellcasters are being used, and as much as I hate using this horribly timeworn cliche, you probably just aren't seeing it  :wink:  Hehe, no serious though, it's just one of those things that isn't at the forefront of Zalanthian ongoings.

[Dan]

Hidden magickers that stew in a hole until they are "powerful" are usually killed by the first 2 day fighter they come across. Unless my ideas of powerful differ greatly from yours.

Someone getting a couple free rounds of massive-weapon damage against your unarmed ass puts running for your life before casting, in my book, or tome. What have you.

I still love to play them once in a while, none the less. They can be great fun. Indeed.

[Rindan]

I agree with you on some points AC, but you need to realize that you are treading on IC ground.  Keep in mind that elementalist are very powerful when they are well trained and that people in power are always looking for bigger and badder tools.  Make your own conclusions.  I have been delving into the magik scene more recently and I can safely say that this is one of the few times that I won't roll my eyes when someone says, "There is stuff going on you don't know about."  That said, I think that you shouldn't have to be a super secret magiker working for clan XXX.  Most magikers are not super secret magikers.  Most are either dead or gemmed.  The few that roam free are probably a pretty small minority.

As to your ideas, simply put, there is no reason to have an open magiker in any sort of social or political situation.  You will never run into an open krathi merchant or aid simply because those are social positions and there is no reason to have something that most people won't even talk to in that sort of position.  If they wouldn't put a 'rinth elf in that role, don't expect to see a open magiker in that role either.  You will never see a Kadian gemmed acting as a merchant.  There is just nothing to gain from it.  That is not to say that Kadians do or do not use mages, just that that will never be the public face they will show.   The same goes with being a servant mage.  Why use a gemmed that no one will talk to when you can just use a normal old non-freak?  It is all a matter of what face you want to put forward, and there are very few people that want someone with a dull black gem to be the person who represents them.  For this reason, it is safe to say that as an open mage you can forget any aspirations of PR positions or rubbing elbows with nobles and high class merchants.  It simply isn't going to happen.

Combat mages are an idea, and there do exist openly.  In every war there have always been magikers in the battles, and often times they act as siege weapons blowing down gates and causing mass damage.  Of course, getting steady work is going to be a problem.  You can always work for a templar and you might find the occasional odd or end from him/her.  House Tor is also known for hiring on combat mages.  Looking to join the Byn is probably not going to happen though.  While having a mage around would be a great asset, it won't do any good if the average slime that crawls into the Byn refuses to work with a gemmed freak.  What they have in utility is lost due to the fact that they are hated so badly that people refuse to work with them.

I think the hardest part for a magiker is being a magiker and finding something interesting to do with their time.  Outside of a tribal setting, being a gemmed is the only way to go and not have to constantly be in hiding.  Only gemmed can openly be a magiker 9 hours a day and 11 days a week for the entire world to see.  The problem with being a gemmed is that the entire community that you are supposed to fall back on isn't really there.  As shunned as gemmed are, I don't think they would have a hard time finding people to talk to and enjoy the company of.  There is an entire quarter sitting there built for them full of people who are also outcasts.  The OOC reality is that there are generally very few active gemmed.  If the people who started playing gemmed stuck with the role their would be a fair community.  Unfortunately, the stream of gemmed who pour in tend to have very short existences in my experience.  They either do something stupid like wander into the 'rinth or desert, or simply become bored and never log on again.  An active and living gemmed is a rare thing.

The worst part about this is that without a steady base it makes building a community impossible.  For a time while I was playing a gemmed there were a good 5 other active gemmed.  I got excited and started planning to spawn an event in the elementalist square.  Before I could even get the preliminary planning done everyone managed to get themselves killed or stopped logging on within a week.

I am not sure what the solution is.  There are two ways to look at it.  It could be simply left as is.  Gemmed are support roles to other organizations/people.  They are like the clan mul.  They get some interaction, but often times it is indirect.  That isn't terribly fun for most though.  The other option is to try and build an actual community within the elementalist quarters.  The obvious problem with this is that it detracts from the rest of the player base.

[Anonymous]

Weren't mages among Allanak's armies during the war?
Why wouldn't some of them be active members of the 'Nakki militia?
I know some were hired by the templarate in 'Nak also, but I don't see any problem with one acting as an aide to a templar, at said templar's side most of the time...who's going to be -stupid- enough to run their mouth about it?

[adgohan]

Hrm...

Angela,

I don't know if this is IC (it's been a while) but there was magickal forces really on either side in the war. In reality, magickers are a feared and powerful "type" of people, I don't really know how it would incorporate into the world if there were mages walking around in positions of power, when they are already considered to be the bringers of plagues and famine and general bad luck.

Merchant mages..I think that if a merchant wants to sell something, then they have to actively go out and do it. Not enough merchants in my opinion actually literally go out and sell their items, moreover, they wait for customers to come to them. This is in many ways an effective means. I don't think we need mages in merchant positions, since most direct merchants have other jobs (such as hunters or crafters) and short of an aide or servant to High Family or something..I don't know, i can't see it's applications. Maybe a Vivadu for constant water or something that is a constant importance. I couldn't see a Krathian/Elkrosian in a merchant house unless they were doing something related to their subclass.

Combat Mages..we have these. In the south, there are several Houses (inquire IC) that will hire these people for various things. The whole Byn is anti-mage respectively because they are a warrior organization by definition, essentially a separate "tribe" of their own with their own beliefs - though bound by the laws of their major cities.

Servant Mages - Again..these exist, mostly used through subclasses..I can think of two Houses that hire these types of people for jobs like this actively.

You haven't missed something, but I like Magickers in the "uncomfortable" position they are in now. I don't think they should be widely accepted, because as you said, if everyone liked magickers everyone would play them, they wouldn't be as rare. Just my personal opinions. That was probably a weird post.

[Angela Christine]

I like things ICly uncomfortable, it's the OOCly dull I don't like.  I play plenty of half-elves, so it isn't the prejudice I have a problem with.  The problem is that the way most people choose to express their dislike and distrust of gemmed is by ignoring them, it isn't a bad stratgy ICly but it limits roleplay and interaction.  If no one is going to interact with them, then they might as well be NPCs.

I'm not sure I got my point across with the merchant mages.  Have you tried to get a special order or rent an apartment in Allanak lately?  There is a chronic shortage of house merchants.  My theory is that the role is both stressful and as dull as watching glass flow, so not many players want to get saddled with it.  Most house merchants almost never leave the city, so they don't get to do any rangering, hunting, exploring, etc., robbing is probably a bad idea, and even crafting is limited unless they have people to bring in raw materials.  You don't have to be a twink to enjoy using coded skills and doing stuff that has immediate, tangible results.  Magicking would be something to fall back on.  Two dull roles -> one slightly less dull role.

And I wouldn't worry about putting their best foot forward.  The PC merchants are always low-ranking and just one of many virtual merchants.  They mostly deal with scrungy commoners.  

Besides, what else are they going to do with them?  If a family member happens to manifest elementalist abilities are they going to disown him?  Then you have a freelance magicker with a lot of family secrets and a grudge running around.  Have him work with delicate materials and important records?  That would be foolish.  Kill him?  His momma might not go along with that.  Have him deal with the grubby commoners?  Why not, maybe you'll get lucky and one of them will gut 'im.


Oh, and when I said mages that hide in a hole don't contribute anything I meant that they don't contribute anything until they leave the hole, like the Butterfly of Doom emerging from the Cocoon of Mediocrity.  But I suspect most of the ones that try this don't survive long enough to reach the butterfly stage.  If they are having fun then that's great.

I'm not saying that people should like magickers.  I'm just trying to think of ways to interact with them.  Is anything sadder than a mage who spends half his time spam casting in the temple and the other half sitting silently in a tavern?

AC

[Rindan]

Think about it AC.  Between nobility and family merchant house members, you must have thousands of people.  Do you think that not one of those has turned out to be an elementalist in a few thousand years?  Do you think they don't already have a way to deal with it?  

Let's me make up a totally hypothetical situation.  Let's say that on rare occasion the merchant house BigSids has an elementalist child.  They have three options.  First, kill the child.  Second, use the child, but keep its abilities hidden from public view.  Third, openly declare the child as a magiker and bind it to all the laws that such a magiker is bound by, including a nice shinny black gem around its neck that makes it a Templar pawn by default.  Which would you pick?  Clearly, either kill it or hide it.  There is nothing to be gained by letting the Templerate put their grubby pawns on it.  Further, even if the templars would refrain from a gemming, why make the ability known?  You don't declare who your best assassin is, and a powerful magiker can eat a skilled assassin for lunch then go on to curse your entire family.  So why declare hidden magiker talent, why not just hide it or kill it?  The only wise choices in my opinion are to either kill or hide the talent.  

Armageddon is a very cohesive world.  Believe me, if something looks strange or off, like the fact that you never hear of noble house or merchant house born magikers, it isn't because the someone got lazy and didn't bother to consider how to deal with it.

As to a normal gemmed becoming a merchant, I think you are missing the point that there is nothing to gain.  A gemmed comes with a lot of baggage, not the least of which is that templars have great control over such a person.  There is just nothing to gain from having a merchant walking around with a gem stuck around his neck.  Why use a gemmed when there are thousands of other non-gemmed who would kill for that position?  Whenever considering a role for a gemmed, replace the word gemmed with mutant freak.  Would you want a mutant freak to be a merchant?  No, of course not.  Would you want a mutant freak to go do bad things to your enemies?  Eh, sounds a little more reasonable.  I am not saying that the two roles can not be combined, just that no sane merchant house is going to combine then openly.

That said, you could always try your hand as an independent gemmed merchant.  If the gemmed player base was a little larger it might be a decent role, but as it is I think a gemmed independent merchant would have a very rough time.

[Angela Christine]

There is just nothing to gain from having a merchant walking around with a gem stuck around his neck.  Why use a gemmed when there are thousands of other non-gemmed who would kill for that position?

Except that there aren't thousands of non-gemmed who would kill for that position, not if it is a non-virtual job.  There probably aren't more than a dozen that would take the job even under duress, because of the OOC hassles.  Placing orders and dealing with virtual crafters is a big pain in the ass, on an OOC level, and it is probably more irksome OOCly than it is ICly.  

Nenyuk might not be so bad because you mannage X appartments and once they are all occupied nobody else gets one, but the other houses are downright unpleasant.  The buyer wants the item -now-, they've probably already been waiting for weeks to find a merchant who can aquire it for them.  On the other hand the items are loaded up by the staff, and it isn't the top priority in their lives, plus they may deliberately impose a reasonable waiting period for the item to be constructed.  Then there are snafus, where it isn't clear exactly what is being ordered or the merchant in charge of the order dies, causing more delays as extra IC meeting and OOC emails are worked through.  Bleh.  

One of my characters wanted a pen, a simple item that can be had for under 100 sid, but at the time there was no NPC selling them in Tuluk.  It took  over two real life months (around 3 years IC) to get a pen, despite placing the order with two clans a few independants.  It's a pen, it's made of a damned feather, how hard should this be to get?  I was darn close to hiring the 'byn to go buy me a pen from the bazaar in Allanak, despite the IC absurdity.  Most of the time I can not identify a merchant from all three (now four) PC houses in a large city that should have dozens such merchants. (ICly it really wouldn't make much sense for the House to send the same representative to take an order from a 'byn halfbreed as they do to service Lord Inbreed, but we overlook this because we don't have 500 players on at a time so we can't have 4 or 5 merchants/advisors for each merchant house).  Maybe I'm just really bad at merchant spotting, or I'm unlucky and the active merchants are always in a different part of the world then me, but it seems like there is a chronic shortage of merchants.  I assume this means that most players don't want these jobs.

Now the lack of merchants is really a seperate issue from the isolation of mages, but both situations are "unrealistic" now.  If you go to the mage quarter there seem to be many mages, and most of them seem to be getting enough to eat.  Many of them MUST have jobs, it isn't like they would do well as beggers.  When I have been up there it seems like most PCs either work for a noble house (and by work I mean get paid to sit in their temple alone and cast all day) or get by gathering stone, salt, etc., and selling it to NPCs.  I suppose a few have super secret jobs they don't tell anyone about, but super secret jobs don't do much to get them interacting with the rest of the player base.  There are plenty of normals who interact with these freaks on a daily basis, unfortunately they are mostly virtual normals and virtual people are dull.

With the construction of the elmentalist's quarter ages ago Allanak made itself Mage Central.  Outcast elmentalists of all races, from accross the known world, make their way to Allanak as a last desperate refuge.  The relative abundance and visibility of magic is one of the things that makes Allanak unique, and is one of the things that has helped make Allanak great.  It is a shame if most of that pontential is left to the NPCs because players can't find ways to interact with magickers.

[Kalden]

Angela Christine has good points in that playing merchants is unbearably boring, and the fact is that all your moaning about VNPCs doesn't mean I can walk up to a VNPC and order an item. There comes a time when you have to compromise a little "realism" for playability. VNPCS just get to be a bigger and bigger thing, and personally I've never been a fan of them.

A VNPC can't arrest you, can't kill you, can't sell to you, can't be pickpocketed, and for all intents and purposes, does not exist.

[Hoodwink]

Let’s me make up a totally hypothetical situation. Let’s say that on rare occasion the merchant house BigSids has an elementalist child. They have three options. First, kill the child. Second, use the child, but keep its abilities hidden from public view. Third, openly declare the child as a magiker and bind it to all the laws that such a magiker is bound by, including a nice shinny black gem around its neck that makes it a Templar pawn by default. Which would you pick? Clearly, either kill it or hide it.

Exactly!  However joyful it may seem to have a merchant who gets to privately practice his spells when no other players are around, while catering to the public's need when they are, it's just not realistic unless the mage/merchant hides his abilities, perhaps even from his own family (and even in this instance it may not work.  Some Merchant Houses are a little more open minded than others, for all I know House Deuring (as a hypothetical example) may abhorently shun mages and if any within their family were born this way they would be outright slain).  In some instances sacrificing realism for playability is necessary, I do not believe this is one of those instances.  There are plenty of opportunities to play a spellcaster in an enjoyable way, I don't see the need to change anything.

One of my characters wanted a pen, a simple item that can be had for under 100 sid, but at the time there was no NPC selling them in Tuluk. It took over two real life months (around 3 years IC) to get a pen, despite placing the order with two clans a few independants. It's a pen, it's made of a damned feather, how hard should this be to get? I was darn close to hiring the 'byn to go buy me a pen from the bazaar in Allanak, despite the IC absurdity.

This may be a different topic but I have to say, I know how you feel.  Because noble and merchant roles go through periods of stagnation, I would like to see the players in those positions taken care of, and if that means loading up some objects for them rather than going through scenarios like the one you describe here, then I don't see why they should be sent to find out IC -- since "Do it IC" can quite often mean it won't ever happen.  I've played nobles before who wanted to amass a decent sized wardrobe, and not of stock Kadius items either.  To think that a noble cannot even acquire one custom designed garment in an entire year is absurd.

[witchman]

Angela Christine has good points in that playing merchants is unbearably boring.

I think this is pretty much not true.  Of course, it depends on one's preference of RP, but merchants are in my experience extremely fun (like nobles) to RP.  If you like to create plots, fund them, and enhance the world by making things happen then the merchant class is excellent for this.

Because you are freed from worrying about your skillz and because you need help getting things done, you are in a perfect position to enlist others to help you achieve your goals (ie: plot development).  This is not boring at all - it requires a manager's mindset.

Further, as far as special items go - it's been my experiece that if the merchant makes his own submissions, and the items aren't extremely exceptional, then the items are created pretty damn quick.

The problem arises from unrealistic expectations of OTHER players.
Somehow (because players insert RL expectations into the game) they assume that salarr has a ton of silver-enscribed swords laying around or gasp when the cost of one of these custom swords is 10k.

I'll share one (long ago) experience from one of my many merchants while playing Salarr - though I could use examples from Kurac or Kadius as well - a PC visits me asks for a "unique weapon - a mace."  I try to get specifics but he doesn't have any (read: the player wants something with a unique sdesc, but doesn't have any clue what the character really wants)
I show him a few we have on hand - none do it for him.  After about a week of RL play we come up with with a sdesc and ldesc that he likes.
I tell him it's going to be several in game months while the item is hand crafted and that the cost is going to be 8-10k.  He flips out.
At that point my merchant wasn't even making a profit!

If players kept in mind the reality of the economic situation in Armageddon, the interaction between PCs and PC Merchants would be better - but on the other hand maybe that's part of being a merchant.  Dealing wiwth idiots for customers.  Bah.  I can't even remember what this thread was about.  Just wanted to share.  Heh.
Peace!

[Dan]

10k for a mace? Honestly, I hope that price was exaggerated for the sake of argument. That is pretty extreme. Comparable to the price of a fully trained and outfitted slave. The specifics of which I will not go into, for bring too IC.

The process is simple, find out what the buyer wants, give an estimated price, send an email to the clan imm, tell them the actual price when you get the item. If there is a problem, it is theirs. It is pretty likely you can still find a buyer for said item elsewhere.

[Angela Christine]

Angela Christine has good points in that playing merchants is unbearably boring.

I think this is pretty much not true.  Of course, it depends on one's preference of RP, but merchants are in my experience extremely fun (like nobles) to RP.  If you like to create plots, fund them, and enhance the world by making things happen then the merchant class is excellent for this.

Because you are freed from worrying about your skillz and because you need help getting things done, you are in a perfect position to enlist others to help you achieve your goals (ie: plot development).  This is not boring at all - it requires a manager's mindset.

Well, yeah, I should have made that clear.  I hypothisize that roles like this would would appeal more to people who started with MUSHes and chat-room RP, where almost everything is based on emoting with the occasional dice roll, while people who started with MUDs might prefer the roaming ranger raider roles where hard-coded skills are important.  Making things happen vs. doing things.  I feel a sense of satisfaction as I see my poor commoner's bank balance creep up to where I can get that second kank, apartment or snazzy new bit of equipment.  I felt no satisfaction at all one time when I was in a role where I got thousands of 'sids per month as a stipend, I think that character had around sixty thousand 'sid in the bank when she died. :shock: Once you've got your nifty silk outfit, your stylish combat outfit just in case you need to get your hands dirty, and a few tasteful pieces of jewelery, a nice set of dishes, and a good collection of wine, the money just doesn't mean anything.  

I have trouble forming goals for characters that were born rich, they already have good food, nice clothes, a mansion, wagons, servants . . . what do you get for the character that has everything?  Jockying for position with a bunch of virtual members of the House just doesn't do much for me.  

Poor characters are much easier to set goals for, and often the goals can be achieved in under a RL month.  One of my first characters was a ranger/stonecarver, she worked as a stonecarver but the ranger bit made it a little easier for her to collect her own stones without dieing.  Anyway, she saved up for nearly a month IC to be able to buy a good sandcloth duster to make her stone gathering trips more comfortable.  Codewise there wasn't a hell of a lot of difference between the duster and the cheap cloak she bought with her newbie money, but it had a nicer description and achieving that goal was fun.

For some of us the typical noble and merchant family member roles are like being trapped in a beautiful gilded cage.  It is pretty, but it makes you want to claw your skin off and stab your eyes out with fork.  Logging in becomes a chore rather than a pleasure.  But if you like them, that's great.  The hard-working, long suffering folk that play the house merchants and nobles are the bedrock of the cities.

AC

[Hoodwink]

I felt no satisfaction at all one time when I was in a role where I got thousands of 'sids per month as a stipend, I think that character had around sixty thousand 'sid in the bank when she died.  Once you've got your nifty silk outfit, your stylish combat outfit just in case you need to get your hands dirty, and a few tasteful pieces of jewelery, a nice set of dishes, and a good collection of wine, the money just doesn't mean anything.

You should be spending your stipend on bribes!     An annual 15K stipend, even, can be burned real fast if you're out there reminding the people you like that you are worth being friends with, and reminding the people who like to aid you in hampering the people you don't like also with donations.  In my opinion, a noble who isn't saving up for some massive campaign has no reason to have his or her bank account growing, it should be getting constant use.

[witchman]

I remember when I played my noble I was told that I had x thousands of sids a month and that it was expected I would use this coin on salaries.
I was careful to document all the spending.

It was very apparent that the purpose of the coin was to create plots, not to buy dishes.

[adgohan]

Angela,

It seems to me your main issue is with this doesn't as much have to do with magickers but is rather..

A) To give magickers something to do.
B) The lack of merchants in the north and the south.

The original idea of magickers was that they all have certain "jobs" that go along with their elemental powers, most of the time. For example, a Krathian is a powerful war mage, and could be used by a southern noble House (for example) to unleash spooky doom when they need to. A Vivaduan, could be used for all sorts of things, especially with the changes to the thirst code, they are infinitely useful. Some of the more difficult magicker roles to fill, Nilaz, Whiran, Rukkian, there is a reason for this, these are people that almost come in with their own ways to handle problems.

The lack of merchants in the north and south does exist, and dealing with VNPC's can get rediculous. I am nigh positive this is something the staff has been working on for some time, and new merchants periodically come in. I do think we need some active (5-10) hour players that can just chill and sell, the problem with that is "long RP pauses" - which generally turns off people from playing merchant roles. During that time, there's not much selling, not much buying, and some people go off to do RL things. I would attack that issue before anything else.

Also, for unique orders, it's not entirely the player's fault or the immortal's fault. If a player logs on once a week, yes, this is the player's fault, but if you want a powerful item or really slick cloak, it does take an immortal most of the time to handle that, it has to be posted on the boards, go through administration..etc. Unless there were specific people delegated to this task in collaberation with the PC that is selling you these things, delays are going to be at minimum an RL week, most likely. The clan merchant imms work pretty hard and Mekeda, Ashyom, and Xygax (Merchant House immies) are all very active and I think they put in 110% for this. This is just a vicious circle, that things are going to take time. 1-3 IC years is rediculous, but I would say if we can get it down to say, an RL week, that would be ideal. Keeping in mind, this takes both PC and imm cooperation, and involves a lot of factors. (PCs being present included)

[Anonymous]

I played a Nenyuk PC in the south. There were times when I sat there bored stiff, because the people who owed rent weren't around, the people who were in need of apartments couldn't afford the rent, and no one was dead for me to clean the apartments and rent them to someone else. This happened for a couple of days each week, at least.

I had one "clanned" employee, but he only showed up twice, and then disappeared. I had a few unclanned helpers who I paid out for helping me move furniture and stuff like that, but in general, Nenyuk isn't known to hire people, so I didn't.

During the downtime, I would've loved to have had things to keep me busy. Being a magicker would've been awesome, especially since the southern Nenyuk estate wasn't finished yet (from what I understand, it still hasn't been finished) and I didn't have a nice big estate to roam around in. Just an apartment, which I could've rented to some rich person but needed a place of my own.

I didn't have a craft skill, and spent most of my time as a tavern-sitter, being bored stiff and making really stupid mistakes out of sheer boredom and need to find something interesting to keep myself entertained. I probably wouldn't have made so many mistakes if I had a magicker class merchant, because I would've spent time experimenting and researching in my apartment instead. At that time, I was not even allowed to use the wagon - they changed the locks on me because I tried to bring someone to teach me to pilot with me and I didn't know we weren't allowed to do that.

So much for trying to add some entertainment to someone else's RP <shrugs>.

But I think it would be awesome if there were magicker merchants. And maybe there already are, and we just don't know it. That's fine too - as long as the players have -something- to keep them entertained during the downtime, which can last for many real-life days and nights.

[Impska]

I admit, I haven't read the log of the player-staff meeting, but I thought the general consensus was to try to make magickers feel -less- accepted, not more accepted? People complain weekly that magickers just aren't hated enough. While a merchant magicker would force people to interact with magickers, due to lack of pc merchants, it would also put that magicker in a position that makes it hard for the other person to express any magicker-disgust/fear/hate. Either they sacrifice their access to a pc merchant in respect for what they feel their character would do, or they "make an exception" for that magicker. Especially if that magicker takes offense of people aren't respectful because he/she is a merchant.
I'm all in favor of hidden merchant magickers.

As for magicker militia people, I see nothing wrong with this. Except that currently, there seems to be guidelines (and ic rules) stopping it from happening. There may be some underlying IC reason for it, or it may just be to avoid every pc magicker being forced into employment by every pc templar (and magickers have been particularly vulnerable to this pressure in the past).

I've noticed that many magicker servants in noble houses seem to run into the problem of not being allowed to do anything but practice spells. They're asked for reports on their progress and dismissed to the temple, and that's it. Put that gem on, and many noble employers often fall into the rutt of forcing a magicker servant out of anything interesting except "practice spells, to be prepared for when I need you!" So although this seems to be an acceptable way to integrate magickers, some guidelines would probably benefit the employers of magickers, to prevent death-by-boredom on the part of the magicker.

10k for a mace? Honestly, I hope that price was exaggerated for the sake of argument. That is pretty extreme. Comparable to the price of a fully trained and outfitted slave.

I think the point of high prices for specially ordered items is to discourage people from over-ordering them. There's no justifyable reason why everyone and their dog needs a bewjewelled this or silver that, which raises their sneak by 50%. But that's a topic for another thread.

[Angela Christine]

You should be spending your stipend on bribes!     An annual 15K stipend, even, can be burned real fast if you're out there reminding the people you like that you are worth being friends with, and reminding the people who like to aid you in hampering the people you don't like also with donations.  In my opinion, a noble who isn't saving up for some massive campaign has no reason to have his or her bank account growing, it should be getting constant use.

Yeah, I know.  It was just sort of an odd situation, and I was too shy to ask for advice at the time.  Yes, that's right, I'm just a shy delicate flower.  Shuddup.  It didn't seem like asking the Helpers would be appropriate, and I didn't want to pester my imm constantly.

It was very apparent that the purpose of the coin was to create plots, not to buy dishes.

Ouch!  You have peirced me to the core!  Hey, the place I was living was new and had cupboards but no dishes.  A year later the people living there are probably still enjoying my fine dishes.  Besides, they were nice alabaster dishes made by PCs.  

It seems to me your main issue is with this doesn't as much have to do with
                 magickers but is rather..

                 A) To give magickers something to do.
                 B) The lack of merchants in the north and the south.

Yeah, I was multi-tasking again.  Sometimes two problems can help solve eachother, sometimes they can't.  :sigh:

The lack of merchants in the north and south does exist, and dealing with VNPC's can get rediculous. I am nigh positive this is something the staff has been working on for some time, and new merchants periodically come in. I do think we need some active (5-10) hour players that can just chill and sell, the problem with that is "long RP pauses" - which generally turns off people from playing merchant roles. During that time, there's not much selling, not much buying, and some people go off to do RL things. I would attack that issue before anything else.

Yeah, I think this is one of the few occasions where multi-playing might be superior, even though I generally hate multi-play MUDs.  I think a merchant type could be a lot of fun for 10-12 hours a week durring peak times, if I could still play my insane parade of hunters, explorers, mercenaries and other doomed active types durring the off hours.  I play a lot late at night when I can't sleep, so I find roles that trap you alone in the city with nothing to do durring off hours are agony.  Agony, I say!

I admit, I haven't read the log of the player-staff meeting, but I thought the general consensus was to try to make magickers feel -less- accepted, not more accepted? People complain weekly that magickers just aren't hated enough.

Well, they aren't actively hated enough.  It seems like the two most popular way of expressing dislike are to either ignore the freak, or try to kill the freak.  Active non-fatal conflict is rare.  

Ignoring them isn't really conflict.  There is no way to know if you hate them, you are indifferent to them, or you are just distracted and not paying attention to them.

Trying to kill them is conflict, but it is short-term and doesn't go anywhere.  One of you dies and the conflict ends, not much RP potential there.

AC

[witchman]

I think there also has to be an equal amount of fear of magickers.  Maybe if they were coded to explode or do random things on death?  ;-)

[Sakra]

Exploding magickers? Fun for the whole family.

When you said that, I thought of the draconians from DragonLance that explode, or turn to stone etc. Now -that- would put some of the fear back in magickers. Whiran dies? Sandstorm. Krathian => BBQ  :twisted: I'm sure there are lots of cool thing dying elementalists can do.

[Dan]

Muahaha.  :twisted:  All I have to say.

[Angela Christine]

Vivaduans disolving into a shower of acid, (Hey, it's a liquid, right?) and with Elkrosians you could get a cool lightening storm effect like when you behead a Highlander immortal.  Yeah, baby.  The ammount of dammage, if any, hitting people in the room could be linked to the amount of magickal energy stored in the body (mana points) at time of death.  When the mind dies the magickal potential is violently released.

Me likey.

Angela Christine

[SailorMars]

LOL...

The lean, hunched-over gith says in their fucked-up language, 'Send our sorcerer in at them, then we hit mage with many spears from afar. All go boom! Hahaha, kill two vestrik with one stone as filthy northerner say.'

Seriously though, magickers with a death proc is a cool idea.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes, I would recommend however, that there be varied death procs, as well as unpredictable amounts of damage and effects upon those who are in the room with them.

Example: Krathi

One mage might explode, causing 99 points of damage upon a random person.

Another mage might explode, causing 99 points of damage upon to everyone.

Another mage might explode, causing 0 points of damage and charring everyone's clothes.

One mage might just die, with no effects.

The possibilities go on and on. In this way, it would be incredibly dangerous to go about killing mages, since one could never know what would happen.

[flurry]

I haven't read the DragonLance books, but I play(ed) a mud with a DragonLance domain in it, and this was coded for the draconian NPCs.  It wasn't as spectacular as one might think - and being somewhat more of a H&S mud, people just adjusted for it in their hacking and slashing.

When the mind dies the magickal potential is violently released.

How about released into someone so they become a magicker?  :twisted:   That would throw the Tuluk people for a loop.

[Dakkon Black]

Ohh perfect, all I need is some 90+ day Bynner chopping me to bits while firing lighting from his ass.

[flurry]

Yeah..true.

Probably wouldn't want to run into a pack of krathian gortoks or a mindbending bahamet either.

[Angela Christine]

I desperately want to have a character say, "Look out!  She's gonna blow!"

AC