Honey

[The Lonely Hunter]

Honey in Zalanthas is green and may even be non existent now since the kanks died off.

Maybe newer generations of folks don't realize this or perhaps I am mistaken and we have some new honey in Zalanthas that I haven't read about that is the color of earth honey. If that is the case, please correct me. Otherwise you may be inadvertently making a green mutant.

[Riev]

Which begs the question...

Is an SDESC designed to give the READER an idea of what you look like, or the IC Populace? Would someone describe you as "honey-haired" or would they say "brownish yellow"? If you say you are a "hale" person, or "tressy-tressed", aren't these supposed to be basic descriptors for the reader?

Or is this why people are "cunyati haired" and "pech-skinned" etc?

[The Lonely Hunter]

I believe that it has always been tradition to use Zalanthas-themed words. There was even an entire webpage dedicated to synonyms and helping people do this which was linked from the Arm page.

In the past using words to describe things which would be unknown, or rarely known, would be rejected. Words referencing most metals or referencing the sky as blue for example.

[Melkor]

Is that the case? I can't tell you how many times I have seen "copper-haired" or "copper-skinned" PCs and NPCs in the game.


Regarding honey... What about Wezers? Do they make honey?
Edited to add: Nevermind. Thats dumb. Wezers are carnivores, like wasps. Forget that question.

So where does our honey come from, nowadays? I've seen old crystallized Kank honey, but the new stuff. What makes it?

[Riev]

I feel like the "Sweetener" of the Known has become marilla. Or khee powder.

[whitt]

Aren't sdesc entirely an OOC construct speaking to the player not the characters in the game?   Which is more jarring to the RP experience?  Trying to visualize a strawberry-blonde ponytail?  Or a Jallal-dyed Mohawk?

So... a honey-haired, blah blah blah would be a fine sdesc, to describe the character to those playing, but the IC description would be the yellowish-brown haired blah blah blah.  I honestly get a bit put off by sdescs with esoteric zalanthan colors since those colors aren't necessarily well defined for translation to an IC description.  The silt-haired blah blah blah, is which color exactly?  Hold on... let me go check the GDB and helpfiles...  blech.

[Armaddict]

Edit:  I got totally derailed.  It's morning.  I'd say just assume that they're speaking to you, the reader, and use context.  If they mean green, they mean zalanthan honey.  If not, they don't.  This is one of those areas where it only seems to be a problem if someone decides to turn it into one.

[manipura]

Aren't sdesc entirely an OOC construct speaking to the player not the characters in the game?   Which is more jarring to the RP experience?  Trying to visualize a strawberry-blonde ponytail?  Or a Jallal-dyed Mohawk?

So... a honey-haired, blah blah blah would be a fine sdesc, to describe the character to those playing, but the IC description would be the yellowish-brown haired blah blah blah.  I honestly get a bit put off by sdescs with esoteric zalanthan colors since those colors aren't necessarily well defined for translation to an IC description.  The silt-haired blah blah blah, is which color exactly?  Hold on... let me go check the GDB and helpfiles...  blech.

I think sdescs and mdescs stop being OOC constructs when players catch sight of the honey-haired man or the strawberry-blonde woman and they describe them as such.  Unless every player starts actively describing every adjective more objectively (which they don't and won't) then my thinking is that sdescs and mdescs are not solely OOC information.  If someone tells me in-game that some guy with honey coloured hair poking out from his helmet is the guy who raided him, should I be having to ask if it's really honey coloured...like a nice greenish yellow shade of old crystallized honey...or if it's some other colour?

When you have a word in a description that is 'something' in game, like honey for example, then it seems obvious to me it should be representing the game colour.  And when you have an adjective that -isn't- something that exists in-game (or is not well-represented to the general populace) , then you run the real risk of having people running around describing this person as having cherry-coloured hair, and that person as having mocha-coloured skin and this other person as having sky-blue eyes (which I see more often than you'd think).

If people calling other people Mister/Sir/Ma'am/etc was so anachronistic that it got a board post from staff, then I don't see how we should be running around describing sky-blue-eyed people and honey-blonde people and cherry-lipped people, unless those adjectives are accurately describing the in-game version.

[manipura]

Is that the case? I can't tell you how many times I have seen "copper-haired" or "copper-skinned" PCs and NPCs in the game.

But copper does exist in game as a reddish-brown colour, just like in RL. 
I think the bigger issue here is when players are using something that doesn't exist in-game in the same manner it exists in RL.

[Melkor]

Is that the case? I can't tell you how many times I have seen "copper-haired" or "copper-skinned" PCs and NPCs in the game.

But copper does exist in game.  I think the bigger issue here is when players are using something that doesn't exist in-game in the same manner it exists in RL.

Good point, but does young Amos from Menos know what copper looks like, if he chooses to describe the copper-haired bandit as such to somebody?

I think there needs to be a reasonable understanding of IC adjectives and OOC adjectives and how they are used to convey information to the Player. Not a huge issue imo.

[ExtraPlanar]

I feel like the "Sweetener" of the Known has become marilla. Or khee powder.

I thought of marilla sap and honey as p. much interchangeable until this thread.

[Raptor_Dan]

I'm going to throw my opinion out there, for what it's worth.

I feel that Zalanthan colors and descriptions take precedence over earth colors, and though Zalanthan colors are preferred, both are acceptable. When I see the honey-haired woman, I'm thinking green hair, not only because I've spent so long playing this game that when I see honey written in grey text on black background, my first thought is 'green', but also because I (perhaps unfairly) expect the other player to mean green. However, we're not all Zalanthan lore experts, or masterful writers with prolific vocabularies, so atramentous may not even be a word that we're aware is a color. If you can't think of a better way to describe golden-yellow hair other than honey, so be it. I'm not going to be upset, but until I look at your mdesc, I may be confused for a moment.

This only stands for and works well with text that IS NOT speech. Once it becomes speech, it, in my humble and loudly repeated opinion, MUST be IC and Zalanthan. As pointed out above, we don't say "'sup dawg" "Sir or Ma'am" or "That's cool." So we also shouldn't say, verbally, 'Sky-blue eyes' or 'Honey-toned skin' etc because it's not reasonable for our chars to do so, but also because our veteran players like me are old and fragile, and my forehead can only be banged upon the desk so often before I lose my ability fragment sentence groups.

tl:dr Both are okay, but it's suggested to learn Armageddon colors.


BTW, Bardlyone may be able to hook you up with Arm Mushclient triggers that turn words that describe color into colorized words. 'Honey' actually shows up as green, cunyati as brown, and soldier and Templar are highlighted red in my list of triggers. It's pretty useful, and it meshes well with the new color palettes offered by staff. Send her 172 PM's daily for a period of eight days to receive these triggers.

[Molten Heart]

.

[whitt]

I think sdescs and mdescs stop being OOC constructs when players catch sight of the honey-haired man or the strawberry-blonde woman and they describe them as such.  Unless every player starts actively describing every adjective more objectively (which they don't and won't) then my thinking is that sdescs and mdescs are not solely OOC information.

Mmm, annoyingly good point.  I guess there's a part of me that hopes players don't just blindly parrot sdescs.  The answer to "What did they look like shouldn't be" - Oh he was the tall, broad-shouldered man.  Well thanks.  I'll just pick them out of this crowd of equally tall and broad-shouldered men. 

I'd hope folks are taking into account the mdesc of the person, if those specific sdesc details are even visible at the time, and just generally describing what they saw, instead.

[bardlyone]

Given that a short description is what is supposed to be most notable about your pc, maybe tall and broad shouldered is kind of inappropriate unless you're max height and weight, and even then, well, that's still notable. Then, I'll tend to include a mix of sdesc/desc, and sometimes eq when describing a person, most times. When it's just sdesc alone, that makes me want to cringe. I know some people have stated in previous threads that they often (basically, paraphrasing here) can't be assed to read a person's actual description, but... well, that's kind of on them for being a person playing a text based game who can't be assed to read text. I would imagine someone who is blind playing a video based mmorpg is at a disadvantage as well.

[Armaddict]

Again, we operate within the restrictions set by the game itself.  We can debate a topic like this over and over and insist that everyone start following a platform, but such is entirely nit-picky.

Describe him as the tall, broad-shouldered man IC.  Make it into a joke IC, if you must, but we all understand why they're being described that way in a sea of tall, broad-shouldered people.  The only thing that makes it awkward is when someone insists on pointing out the obvious and forcing you to go deeper into the OOC to explain why they're described that way.

I always got a kick out of the situations.  "It was a guy with rough skin, like he'd been outside a lot.  I guess you could call him....desertworn?"
You know they're laughing about it or rolling them eyes at themselves.  You chuckle about it.  But you move on, you don't turn it into some giant analysis process just because you can.  Not unless you're kinda feeling like being a dick who's ruining immersion for the sake of trying to force immersion.

[Riev]

The trouble is, in an IC way, when people want to know what someone looks like, the sdesc words ARE what they want. They want them for contact keywords, or to more readily spot them in a crowd, etc.

So when a Templar says "WHAT DID THE CRIMBIMBAL LOOK LIKE", they never seem to enjoy hearing "he had on a dark cloak, and a white facewrap, and I noticed that his leggings were made out of waxed leather".

They want "He had eight scars on his left asscheck, I guess you could say he was "ass-scarred"?"

[Armaddict]

The trouble is, in an IC way, when people want to know what someone looks like, the sdesc words ARE what they want. They want them for contact keywords, or to more readily spot them in a crowd, etc.

So when a Templar says "WHAT DID THE CRIMBIMBAL LOOK LIKE", they never seem to enjoy hearing "he had on a dark cloak, and a white facewrap, and I noticed that his leggings were made out of waxed leather".

They want "He had eight scars on his left asscheck, I guess you could say he was "ass-scarred"?"

Pretty much.  I try to mix in as many details as I possibly can, so that they have to mix'n match what's sdesc and what's for verification upon closer inspection.  It's also the reason why hoods are still minorly effective; at least it keeps people from using the old 'contact to see if they're online right now' trick.  God I hate that.

[Refugee]

I agree with avoiding descriptions that cause confusion in Zalanthas, like honey hair or sky-colored eyes.  Honey's not a blonde color, and the sky isn't blue.  We don't know if they meant green hair or not.  Did they mean red eyes or blue?    Maybe it should be a reason for sending back an app for changes. 

As for the difficulty with describing what someone looks like to someone else using SDESC words, I think we just have to kind of do the best we can and not make a big deal about how someone else decides to do it.  It's certainly not the most astonishing thing that we take in stride to play this game.  It's just how it works and we might as well accept it like we accept so many other things.  Think of it is a cultural norm.

[Samoa]

A long time ago we had a very spirited discussion about this very topic because Pearl Terash, newbie PC founder of the Atrium, had honey-coloured hair in her sdesc, and as any successful PC is a polarising figure, people on the board went about kind of condescendingly bringing up how it must mean her hair was green.

You can generally tell, very easily, from the rest of the mdesc, if a player means 'sky' as in fiery orange-red, or 'honey' as in green, as opposed to blue and gold. Canonically, there is a rather prominently featured Oashi NPC (well, prominent for Oashi PCs, anyway) with 'sky-coloured' hair that is a fiery orange, and in general I do agree that it is correct to keep these things 'Zalanthan' in terms of accuracy, but... we all know what someone means when we see it.

If something slips by, okay, typo it and let someone fix it. PC sdescs and mdescs can be adjusted. It happens. And in the meantime, understand they may not be as familiar with the documentation/world, and roll with what they meant rather than what they wrote.

[Raptor_Dan]

2 sids on using sdesc keywords: When I've been asked what someone looks like, I have a wildly varying array of responses depending on both my char, theirs, and the circumstances. In military situations, with an astute char, my responses have been verbose enough to describe scars, eye/hair color, skin color, height, race, approximate weight, cloak and visible weapons. Only sometimes did those descriptions have the actual keywords in there, and only when I felt it was fair to give them. Someone who is the 'drov-eyed, dagger-thin male' would likely be called skinny and dark-eyed. If the dude was a rinthi who always had his hood up, it wouldn't really matter that I didn't use specific keywords except to the person who immediately contacts 'skinny.dark.eyed.' looking for them, and I like to discourage that kind of thing.

Other times, when it was char appropriate, I've responded as simply as 'He looked like a dick, and he said 'eh' a lot.' Even that can be enough to narrow down the list of PC's to one.

[Delirium]

The gameworld can feel very small despite its virtual size.

Personally I like to push back against that as much as I can by being extraordinarily unhelpful in IC ways.

"Uh, there were like 20 people that came and went just now, you want a description of all of them?"

"NO I MEAN THE GUY IN THE BLACK CLOAK THAT WENT THROUGH THE GATES"

"Oh well there were like three of those, I didn't pay too close attention, sorry."

Guess that makes me a jerk!

However, on topic? Y'all are being super nitpicky and probably picking on specific players with this, so geez, stop it.

[BadSkeelz]

I wonder if scarlet, crimson, and red cloaks all look more-or-less the same under the Red Sun we have. Or maybe they all look black?

[bardlyone]

Personally I like to push back against that as much as I can by being extraordinarily unhelpful in IC ways.

"Uh, there were like 20 people that came and went just now, you want a description of all of them?"

"NO I MEAN THE GUY IN THE BLACK CLOAK THAT WENT THROUGH THE GATES"

"Oh well there were like three of those, I didn't pay too close attention, sorry."

This I actually like.

Y'all are being super nitpicky and probably picking on specific players with this, so geez, stop it.

This, less so. Then, I've also been the one apping a minimum height pc turned down for 'petite' in a short description - when it's very definition is short (because someone couldn't see how they were petite other than being short), only to turn around and find someone with 'he is tall' (verbatim) as their short description in game with that same pc. Maybe there should be a more level bar there, or better listed criteria.

Edit to add:

[shameless plug]http://www.filedropper.com/armageddontriggers[/shameless plug]

[Jihelu]

Whenever I see people, especially people who are in leadership rolls or templar and rollcalled rolls, low key/or blatantly ask for an sdesc is hurts me.
This hurts me even more when it's to possibly kill someone.

Peron who wants them dead:"What does he look like so we can go murder him"
Me :"Oh, he's kind of tall. -Eye color-, stuff like that"

-Someone else- "Oh he's very *Literally his sdesc*"

This situation happened before and I would player complaint it should I have thought of it.
People are basically giving full proof verbal wanted posters and I very much doubt anyone who heard of his sdesc would stop and go "Maybe he's just another person with -insert average features-".

As for what I think about sdescs using weird words....
I don't know.
I'm a fan of just using colors as opposed to zalanthian items.

[Hauwke]

I personally dont like the use of zalanthan terms in an Sdesc, but definately dont be using sky blue or obviously earthan colors and terms like that for just the reason someone mentioned before, its wierd to say skyblue IC.

I have no fucking clue what the hell Pech color is. Or Petoch, or anything like that. I can barely understand what Mauve is and its an earth color!

[solera]

Look them up. Buy a petoch fruit. Actually, I've almost forgot too. I like cunyati brown though I still have to look up the spelling so don't put it in a sdesc. Sand coloured or sandy is spread through the data base, and PCs, and I have to read further to find if its meant to be reddish, or earth brownish.

[Hauwke]

That is another one that is among the list I suppose.

[azuriolinist]

This chart might be helpful, too! The old image isn't available, anymore, but I think this was it?

As for s-desc keywords, I'll admit to having used both IC and OOC-related terms for mine. I think using either should be alright, as long as the color/thing being referred to is elaborated in the main description, which is absolutely perfect for clarifying this sort of thing. Personally, I try not to refer to others by their specific short desc. keywords, if possible.

[Samoa]

We used to use this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20011208073914/http://www.ci-n.com/~darklyn/armageddon/char.html

[Raptor_Dan]

Omg! I haven't read 'lisa says I have to title these' in forever! My next PC, I'm using every single Zalanthan color I can.

This page was a great resource for me. Is there anyway we can make it more available for newbies? Like maybe copy/pasting it somewhere, or stickying a thread with it?

[TheGoose]

...I think... one major issue is being overlooked here.

I've been playing about two months, and I didn't know that the sky was red ALL THE TIME. I knew that it was red SOME of the time. I thought this had more to do with the time of day than anything.

I hadn't even heard of honey in Zelanthas and, except for reading this thread, would have had no way of knowing it was green short of someone showing it to me in-game. I didn't know it came from kanks. Maybe it's mentioned in a help file somewhere? Who knows, man.

Though I'm ashamed to admit it, I've sort of given up on understanding the Zelanthan-only terms and words. There are too many, the explanations are spread all across the helpfiles and hidden in small, sticky pockets. It really just seems like a tenebrous trail of nonsense words that occasionally crop up, immune even to the considerable power of Google.

What would really help is a single, comprehensive help file, rather than an easy-to-miss thread on the forums, referenced in the game (preferably in the chargen area.)

(Edited for tone)

[WanderingOoze]

...I think... most of y'all have been playing this game so long that you're missing the obvious issues here.

I've been playing about two months, and I didn't know that the sky was red ALL THE TIME. I knew that it was red SOME of the time. I thought this had more to do with the time of day than anything.

I've never even HEARD of honey in Zelanthas, and except for reading this thread, would have had NO WAY AT ALL  of knowing it was green, short of someone showing it to me in-game. I didn't know it came from kanks. Maybe it's mentioned in a help file somewhere? Who knows, man.

I've given up on understanding the Zelanthan-only terms and words. There are too many, the explanations are spread all across the helpfiles and hidden in small, sticky pockets. How is anyone supposed to understand these nonsense words?

What y'all really need is a single file that explains this. Not some obscure thread on the forums. A help file, referenced in the game (preferably in the chargen area.) Referenced often. A comprehensive list. Otherwise? You should probably just accept that people aren't going to know what you 20 year vets are talking about.

I've been playing for a few years now and -still- find myself
not knowing wtf the Kanjel-eyed, numut-skinned, jallal-haired man -actually- looks like unless I read the mdesc, and they
have actually -further- described wtf these colors really look
like. Which isn't even a given, as some people in their mdescs
even go 'their hair is a deep shade of ripe kalans' . And yeah,
sometimes I don't have time to dredge up the color-files threads
to piece together what I'm seeing.

The Lord Templar asks, "Well, what did the criminal look like?"

The Slack-jawed Ooze says, "Um...I think he was a fruit tree of some sort, Lord Templar."

[Lizzie]

People will interpret things however they feel like interpreting it, even if you are meticulous about your meaning in an mdesc. To wit:

I played a melon-breasted woman. That was part of her sdesc. If you had bothered to actually read her mdesc, you'd discover her breasts were SHAPED like melons. Not that they were the size of melons. They were actually modest in size. But they were bulbous-shaped. Melon-shaped. She used to get shit from people all the time about the size of her boobs when in fact - there was nothing remarkable at all about their size, and her mdesc was very clear on that.

I also once played a character whose mdesc included a "gentle flare at her hips." Word got around that there was this chick with huge child-birthing hips hanging out at the bar. Why? Because I included the word "hips" in the mdesc and that's what people chose to latch on to.

The more obscure your reference, the less likely people will be to actually pay attention to it. Honey in Zalanthas used to come from kanks. There are no more kanks, and no living PC in the game would have been around before the kanks ceased to exist. Most PCs in the game can't read, so written descriptions would be lost on the vast majority of the populace. They'd have to rely on pictures, most of them ancient and primitively painted/drawn. It's very unlikely that any PC in the game would know a) that honey exists and b) that it's green.

As for plants - that's even tougher. The kalan-eyed man - are you saying his eyes are the COLOR of kalan fruits? Or the shape of kalan fruits? And if you mean the color of them, do you mean the outer rind, or the inner pulp (which is a very different color)?

I'm for clarity, personally. Even though - when I'm being clear, most people don't bother to read it anyway. At least I know I was clear, and that it was the fault of the reader for not, y'know, reading.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Great so my characters penis is green.

[SaraD]

If you wanna ruin your own immersion by clenching your anus every time you read a description, I'm more than glad to help make sure your asshole gets *ripped* like Arnie.

Edit: also, ridiculous necropost, but didn't even think about it till I posted, sorry XD

[TheGoose]

...I'm more than glad to help make sure your asshole gets *ripped* like Arnie.