Quick RP Questions

[TheGoose]

Imagine the thread title speaks for itself. Sorry if this exists and got buried.

To start us off, what's the average age for marriage and childbirth in Zelanthas?

[BadSkeelz]

1) Your average commoner does not get married. Formal marriage contracts only exist between Noble Houses or Great House Merchants. Your average Allanaki commoner is just going to shack up with whoever they want, really whenever they want for however long both of them want. The Templarate isn't interested in recording it, so there's no formal rules.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Marriage

2) Childbirth probably runs the gamut. You can look at historical precedents for justification (i.e. fairly young ages compared to modern times) but I imagine most PCs aren't going to be thinking of kids till the late teens or early twenties at the earliest. Related to the lack of codified relationship rules above, pregnancy and childbirth just kind of happens whenever someone is capable or inclined to it.

[Raptor_Dan]

Marriage is more of a concept for nobility, where dowries, titles, and favors are exchanged, and everything is very formal. For commoners, and those filthy savage tribals, it may be a bit different. There is no 'let's get married', or formal marriage for commoners. The best you'll get is what's most commonly used as 'mates' or 'partners'. Two people or more hooking up, and deciding it's exclusive and they'll be together until they die. Or sometimes until a goal is achieved.

Childbirth? Well, in Zalanthas, with PC's, it can't happen before the youngest age playable. We're just not even getting into what /might/ happen below that. Average would be young, all the way up into thirties, I think beyond that, it's kind of rare.

I hope that answers some questions, but if there's more, come at us with them.

{Mostly what BadSkeelz said}

[whitt]

{Mostly what BadSkeelz said}

+1

[Akaramu]

2) Childbirth probably runs the gamut. You can look at historical precedents for justification (i.e. fairly young ages compared to modern times) but I imagine most PCs aren't going to be thinking of kids till the late teens or early twenties at the earliest. Related to the lack of codified relationship rules above, pregnancy and childbirth just kind of happens whenever someone is capable or inclined to it.

Adding to this: Unlike our own world in medieval times, Zalanthas knows birth control (in the form of mul mix). I'm pretty sure even VNPCs don't want to have to feed kids until they have the means to do so. Teen pregnancy happens, but I don't think it's nearly as common as real world history figures suggest.

[BadSkeelz]

Good point, Akaramu.

I imagine mul mix isn't 100% effective, and whether it's usable "after the fact" is probably debatable or subject to interpretation. But you're right in that Zalanthans have access to purportedly reliable birth control. There's also less social/cultural pressure to be "Fruitful and multiply," especially in the city where we're not working farms.

[TheGoose]

Just to keep things going (and to further work on the concept I'm marinating,) obviously the Byn are a thing. Are there any other organizations around the Known that an adventurous sort might gravitate towards? Especially those comfortable with nomads and the outdoors.

Edit: Also, do nomads have different moors than yr average Allanaki vis a viv marriage and fidelity? Would someone who 'married into' a tribe of nomads be considered a member of the tribe (for chargen and in the tribe's eyes), or would they just be a hanger-on who spoke passable Bendune?

[Pale Horse]

Just to keep things going (and to further work on the concept I'm marinating,) obviously the Byn are a thing. Are there any other organizations around the Known that an adventurous sort might gravitate towards? Especially those comfortable with nomads and the outdoors.

Edit: Also, do nomads have different moors than yr average Allanaki vis a viv marriage and fidelity? Would someone who 'married into' a tribe of nomads be considered a member of the tribe (for chargen and in the tribe's eyes), or would they just be a hanger-on who spoke passable Bendune?

"An adventurous sort" would be best covered by solo-exploring and working, but joining the Byn could be seen as 'adventurous' by someone who's never gotten out of the city.

"Marriage" is, again, a concept that most practiced by the Nobles and Great Merchant Houses.  Individual tribes might have stricter or looser mating rituals but that would depend on the individual tribe.  Typically, unless you have been born as 'part of the family,' you will not ever be 'part of the family.'

[Hauwke]

City dwellers would probably join the Byn for adventure. Desert dwellers may even do that as well in all honesty. But they might also just walk until they sate the urge to explore which could never happen.

[solera]

There is Kurac too, in Luirs outpost whose Tavern is filled with tribals.

[Akaramu]

There is Kurac too, in Luirs outpost whose Tavern is filled with tribals.

+1

They're also likely to attract adventurous outdoorsy types.

[senseofeven]

Qn: What would you consider welcomed/distinct or 'good' rp as per the different castes in Armageddon?

e.g rinthis, criminals, suspicious persons, army personnel, guard personnels, magickers, templars, highborn, the dothrakis.

It all seems kinda like a mushed pot where everything kind of tastes the same.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm not sure what you mean, senseofeven.

Every social class is going to have different interactions with each other, depending on character history, background (a Oash Noble and Borsail noble can have very different attitudes towards magick, for example), and even geography at that very moment.

I suppose a good rule of thumb is "Know where your character falls on the pecking order. If you're in a location that allows you to bring your full social might to bear, you can be more of a dick with less fear of immediate consequences."

[Miradus]

Or don't be afraid to try and bluff.

[Samoa]

I imagine mul mix isn't 100% effective, and whether it's usable "after the fact" is probably debatable or subject to interpretation.

Over the years I've always seen PCs reference 'moon tea' as an after-the-fact abortive.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I imagine mul mix isn't 100% effective, and whether it's usable "after the fact" is probably debatable or subject to interpretation.

Over the years I've always seen PCs reference 'moon tea' as an after-the-fact abortive.

pregnancy is an ooc choice with IC consequences.  Not getting pregnant or a male who says 'it ain't mine, I have my mul mix with breakfast' so on is legitimate. Not that a male has to have any responsibility with a child.  I think choosing pregnancy needs to be an ooc agreement between two players most of the time.

So I don't know.  Unless you plan to RP having the child alone it needs to be agreed before hand.  So in my mind mul mix and moon tea and such always work until decided that it doesn't, hopefully by both PCs, and for the VNPC pop it doesn't matter.

Much like hyperspace in Star Wars takes exactly the amount of time to complete plot discussion before you arrive at your location. Regardless of actual galactic distance.

[BadSkeelz]

Moon Tea is a Game of Thrones reference, I've never personally seen it in game but would not be surprised to see it used.

My preferred form of birth control is still rough circle.

[bardlyone]

I imagine mul mix isn't 100% effective, and whether it's usable "after the fact" is probably debatable or subject to interpretation.

Over the years I've always seen PCs reference 'moon tea' as an after-the-fact abortive.

pregnancy is an ooc choice with IC consequences.  Not getting pregnant or a male who says 'it ain't mine, I have my mul mix with breakfast' so on is legitimate. Not that a male has to have any responsibility with a child.  I think choosing pregnancy needs to be an ooc agreement between two players most of the time.

So I don't know.  Unless you plan to RP having the child alone it needs to be agreed before hand.  So in my mind mul mix and moon tea and such always work until decided that it doesn't, hopefully by both PCs, and for the VNPC pop it doesn't matter.

Much like hyperspace in Star Wars takes exactly the amount of time to complete plot discussion before you arrive at your location. Regardless of actual galactic distance.

This, basically. You never know if the person who you are banging is RPing a character who might be sterile, if they hate babby rp, etc etc etc. It is definitely not something you should spring on them out of nowhere too late to retcon or walk back. I've seen people on here talk about mul mix not working 100% on occasion, but afaik, it does, that's why it's called mul mix, muls can't have kids, period. When you take it, you don't have kids, period. Some people seem to rp otherwise. It's not my job to police them, and I won't, but any time a pc of mine is taking mul mix, it's 100%. Period.

Edit to add:

Prior staff input:

Mul mix exists, it works for the purpose it was intended for and is well known throughout the history of the game to be useful and often used to prevent pregnancy. I think anyone not wanting to add to the waddling fetus' would be using mul mix.

[Fathi]

My preferred form of birth control is still rough circle.

Thanks for this.

[Erythil]

IMO the complete lack of marriage or couple-and-family joining ceremonies among the lower class is the most unbelievable thing about this setting to me.  I'd more readily believe in sand sharks.

[bardlyone]

IMO the complete lack of marriage or couple-and-family joining ceremonies among the lower class is the most unbelievable thing about this setting to me.  I'd more readily believe in sand sharks.

I believed this for a long time. After some research, it's not that outrageous, just unusual to western mores.

There are actually multiple groups who don't really do this IRL even.

Whether it's people who don't live together and the father has no responsibility to the kid but sometimes comes over on holidays:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201311/society-without-marriage

Or a culture where people may sometimes get 'married' in their 60s or 70s but basically just live together like mates:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/06/marriage-an-alien-notion-indian-tribe-2014617134343167160.html

Or even a culture where sometimes women who have no real interest in each other may occasionally live together in what is called a marriage but is basically just a situation to pool resources and has no romance involved:
http://www.marieclaire.com/culture/a21668/the-tanzanian-wives/

[solera]

In the permanent settlements of the Known, the Marriage has the meaning of a contract between  your betters or richers. I don't know of anything in canon that excludes committed pairings marked by exchange of tokens or other personal rituals. There seems no reason why you shouldn't celebrate this publicly, if you want to. Just don't call it marriage in the hearing of the true blooded.  And maybe don't grace the custom by calling it a tradition. The common people seem to be lacking any tradition apart from acknowledging His Omnipotence.
Your examples, Bardly, don't argue against this either, I don't think?

[Raptor_Dan]

It seems more modern, and more like western bullshit for this to happen:

"I love you!"

"Prove it. Swear it. Also, I need a verbal signature in front of witnesses, and jewelry to boot, so everyone else knows too, even when I'm not around."

Me and my helpmate aren't married. We didn't have vows, no ceremony, no tradition. We've been together for fourteen years, would die for each other, and love each other more than ourselves. Why do I call her helpmate, when the government says we're common-law married? Because she helps me. It's more real to me than 'wife', she's not my wife, she's a part of me. The very idea of marriage has been laughable to me since I was young, /especially/ the oaths. Maybe Zalanthas are stupider than I am, but in a world of corruption, betrayal, and murder, I doubt words or ceremonies really mean anything at all.

Despite all that, I've seen and played those who have varied traditions, unique relationship backgrounds, parents of 'one mother, six fathers' or 'one father, many women to breed with, who keeps the children, and the mothers leave'. I've also seen ring giving, or tattoos shared, blood rituals.

Don't box me in with your fifty years or less of experience when Zalanthan culture has had Ages to progress, and they're richer and more cultured and more varied that most of America, imho.

However, if you truly don't find it believable, there's no reason to suspend disbelief. Make a char, with a background that includes a 'marriage' ceremony between their parents, and walk around acting as if everyone else is crazy for not understand this. Call marriage 'ezkontza' and marrying someone 'kontzeko'. That alone should provide an interesting RP experience.

[solera]

Bardly's Garazians  and  Kuryas aren't too modern, and they had ceremonies for their pairings. Just saying, it's not necessarily western bullshit.

Betrayal thrives on commitments.

Correction. The Kurya women didn't have a ceremony. Only paid the bride price and became Married.

[Raptor_Dan]

it's not necessarily western bullshit.

Totally, totally. I should have said, 'all human nature is bullshit, including everything I do.'

[Erythil]

Some form of codified, ritualistically or legally recognized pair-bonding with an eye towards the creation of familial or clan units is not the exception, but rather the rule, throughout all of recorded human history, in the East and Near East as well as the West.  I stand by my opinion that it's not especially believable that there would be a large urban mercantile society that does not have a cultural establishment allowing for this kind for the transmission of property and lineage.  I believe that the lower classes would seek to imitate the higher. 

However, I am okay with it among tribal societies.

Also, Raptor Dan, I find some weird cognitive dissonance between your celebration of the superiority of the 'Ages of culture' leading to an absence of marriage practice and your previous assertion that your 'lack of tradition' is a virtue of your non-married common-law relationship.

[Raptor_Dan]

Also, Raptor Dan, I find some weird cognitive dissonance between your celebration of the superiority of the 'Ages of culture' leading to an absence of marriage practice and your previous assertion that your 'lack of tradition' is a virtue of your non-married common-law relationship.

You keep using that word marriage, and it's jarring to me. There's plenty of pair-bonding practice in Zalanthas, so much of it, that there is no real standard. It's not 'Ages of Culture' leading to an absence, it's Ages of Culture leading to an established norm you don't readily believe. Mate is the accepted term, sharing an apartment is basically normal city tradition when you're serious. I swear, I've overheard this argument you're making IG, as more educated nobles commented on the practices that Zalanthans have being a mimicry of their superiors. So, there's definitely not an absence, there's an abundance, it's just not what you want it to be. I applaud that, and you find cognitive dissonance between that, and my RL relationship, which I tried to use as an example of how lack of tradition doesn't mean lack of importance.

Btw, as someone who has been diagnosed as having bipolar affective disorder, and schizophrenia, you're going to find a LOT of cognitive dissonance is EVERYTHING I do. Take it with a grain of yellow salt, please. Tomorrow I'm going to be an entirely different person who might disagree with everything I've said or done before.

Edited to reread my responses, Erythil's:

Actually, now that I look at this, I don't think maybe you read my post very well. I didn't allege an absence of anything.

Despite all that, I've seen and played those who have varied traditions, unique relationship backgrounds, parents of 'one mother, six fathers' or 'one father, many women to breed with, who keeps the children, and the mothers leave'. I've also seen ring giving, or tattoos shared, blood rituals.

Don't box me in with your fifty years or less of experience when Zalanthan culture has had Ages to progress, and they're richer and more cultured and more varied that most of America, imho.

But that doesn't fit your desire for a 'codified, ritualistically or legally recognized pair-bonding' in Zalanthas, so i can see how it would be easy to ignore.

You're pointing out what you expect from a large urban mercantile society, and I think instead of thinking it as that, you could also think of it as a post-apocalyptic world ruled by dominating sorcerers who don't /want/ their lesser subjects to transfer property or lineage, OR imitate higher classes. /my input...?

[Miradus]

I only respect the ancient dwarven ceremony of Kapluk, where we gather four hundred of our relatives and descend upon the nearest bar where we will drink all of the ale and take turns forcibly sodomizing the other patrons.

Fun fact: Next one starts in 30 minutes.

[Delirium]

So dwarves are klingons? Everything makes so much sense now

[TheGoose]

So, I've been wondering about this for a long time. On the human tribals page, all of them have this line: " Not okay to use as background. "

Does that mean that if I wanted to explain my character's virtual tribe as an offshoot of one of the documented tribes, that isn't allowed? I've been holding off on naming and sort of fleshing out my character's tribe until I can get that answered.

[Tisiphone]

So, I've been wondering about this for a long time. On the human tribals page, all of them have this line: " Not okay to use as background. "

Does that mean that if I wanted to explain my character's virtual tribe as an offshoot of one of the documented tribes, that isn't allowed? I've been holding off on naming and sort of fleshing out my character's tribe until I can get that answered.

The best thing to do in this situation would be to drop a line to staff in the request tool, using the Question category. They'll sort it out.

My gut feeling is that they're okay with people creating virtual tribes, and probably wouldn't have a problem with this idea, but it depends in part on what the virtual tribe is like, how the offshoot happened, that sort of thing. And they'll probably be willing to work with you to find an acceptable position.

What the 'Not Okay to Use as Background' definitely set-in-stone means is that it's not okay to make a character who is from one of those tribes, because they're closed for some reason. It might be that they were wiped out, or moved out of the Known, or are closed temporarily in an attempt to consolidate the playerbase or to give staff a chance to revamp their tribal documentation, or for any other reason. It doesn't (necessarily) mean that any and all association with them must necessarily cease.

But you'll want to check with them to be sure.

[chrisdcoulombe]

Junk baby

[TheGoose]

Junk baby