This Chits Idea...

[Shoka Windrunner]

So...there was a discussion about how to make the 'built in' jobs more interesting. 

A lot was thrown around about including chits that you could trade for tools, food or water.

People discuss how the shopkeeps always run out of money and there is always a wait for a reboot to replenish said coins and then they are all gone in a very short time then it is time to wait for the next reboot.  And if you didn't get in on the action, you are sort of SOL.

It was also suggested that after a NPC merchant has received 5 items they stop buying them.  So instead of refusing, maybe they offer you a really really low price for the item.

I was curious what people would think about having them offer you a few sid for the items above 5, like 2-4 sid, just to take it off your hands, but could also offer you a chit as well?  For a flatcake or a small jug of water or what have you.  Maybe a second bartender in the Gaj who serves you the 'panther piss' alcohol for 3 or 4 chits a go. 

Yes this makes a second currency.  I get that is maybe annoying.  But it would mean you can at least get SOME sid for those items...and if you are a newer character, who isn't in a clan, you could also not starve and dehydrate to death.

I know PC's are that 1% of the population who isn't starving every day, but being able to do a little bit of work, get a little bit of sid, and food and water, maybe a crappy ale. 

I think it could work for everyone, whether they are offpeak/onpeak/loner/social/elf and people could still do what they like without worrying about the rest.

This could also allow all prices for purchasing to be lowered, and then the people trying to figure out what to do with the extra money wouldn't have that issue.

"But I still want my cool armor and stuff dude!" I hear you say.  Well, then perhaps chits that are specific to certain GMH's.  Salaar chits, Kadian chits, Kuraci chits...save those up and instead of getting food and water, you can change them in for gear.  It would still be a bit of struggle to get these things, but you still could.  I guess it just might make it feel more like you are still that pooped on commoner that owes their soul to the company store...



Anyway, I've been gone for quite a while, just came back and am waiting for a character to be approved.  So have at this idea but can we please try to keep it civil?   

[Miradus]

I think it would overcomplicate the current economy system in weird ways.

"I'll trade you two small, a Salarr chit, and a Kadius chit. Oh, and here's one for Fale good for a free hand job."

Just increase the rate at which shopkeepers sell to the vNPC system and I think the 5 of each item wouldn't be a huge problem.

[bardlyone]

I think it would overcomplicate the current economy system in weird ways.

"I'll trade you two small, a Salarr chit, and a Kadius chit. Oh, and here's one for Fale good for a free hand job."

Just increase the rate at which shopkeepers sell to the vNPC system and I think the 5 of each item wouldn't be a huge problem.

+1

[Fathi]

I agree with Miradus in that I think a chit system would be overcomplication, however I've always been a proponent of the idea of some NPC sellers that dole out low quality food and water in exchange for raw goods.

There are certain objects in the south that PCs almost never buy due to the lack of crafts available and the ease of acquisition of these items. Then taking into account only one NPC shop buys some of them--one, in the entire city--you have a recipe for great piles of unused animal parts laying around since nobody can craft them, sell them, or eat them.

A system like the Muarki barter wagon where you can trade X number of common objects for Y object would be wonderful, and it'd make the role of a scavenger a lot more realistic if scavengers could simply trade the stuff they scavenge for subsistence.

Off the top of my head:

a strip of spiced beetle meat for a few chalton horns
a waterskin full of water for a few small chunks of obsidian
a bundle of travel rations for some rigid angular legs

Something along those lines would allow people to trade in commonly-skinned and scavenged items so they wouldn't just pile up in the desert taking up space or stockpile infinitely in people's apartments. But I'd imagine only PCs on the lower end of the totem pole would take advantage of it, since there wouldn't be much benefit to rich/clanned people who already have food and water. This makes sense to me as rich clanned people wouldn't care about scavenging chalton horns.

Basically, I'm all for anything that makes the resource scarcity and scavenging tendencies of Arm's mythos more readily apparent on the PC level.

Side note, Shoka, it's great to see you back! I remember you fondly from some Kuraci characters back like seven or eight years ago. Time flies, dude.

[Akaramu]

I think it would overcomplicate the current economy system in weird ways.

"I'll trade you two small, a Salarr chit, and a Kadius chit. Oh, and here's one for Fale good for a free hand job."

Just increase the rate at which shopkeepers sell to the vNPC system and I think the 5 of each item wouldn't be a huge problem.

+1

+2, increasing the sales rate to VNPCs would solve the problem easily and efficiently.

[Cind]

I would like it if this system were in place for scrab legs, chalton horns, a few types of usable stone chunks, things that many realism buffs are forced to leave behind in the desert because there are no coded shopkeepers in the city who want them.

[nauta]

I noticed that a new vendor NPC in Allanak is capable of doing bartering.  You can trade 20 ivory horns (or whatever) for some item OR 100 obsidian coins for that item.  Pretty neat.

One proposal would be to plop down a few vendors like this with no limit who offer some basics (waterskins, rations, torches, rope, etc.) in exchange for detritus from the Vrun (chalton hides, horns, shards of obsidian, etc.).

[bardlyone]

I like the idea of the raw item for subsistence exchange, too, and think between that and shopkeeper vnpc sales adjustment, things would be just peachy. The chits idea seems like it would get as little play as clay digging does. Which is to say, little to none unless it's part of a real specific (and not that common of an archetype) role concept. It's less that I don't think it would fit, and more that I feel like it would lessen the state's strangehold on coinage and ability to manipulate and keep down/elevate through such by diluting buying and selling power, in a way that seems at odds with the state required concept of things like a merchant's token. I also agree with the idea that the chit system would over complicate things for newbies especially, less so for veterans.

[Cind]

I was thinking, rinthis and elves, some witches, people who can't depend on a clan for survival, they can hunt or scavenge untaken rocks and bits instead, and survive that way. Like mining; anyone can do it, most will not, but most people can realistically do it if they have to.

I would like to see maybe a Kadian stall in Storm as well, that will take five of each color pearl at a time. Five blacks give you a waterskin, five lavenders give you a hunk of meat, etc. Five pinks might give you a decent knife or a piece of food depending on what you specify you want. I could see a pearl trader offering stuff that is juuust nice enough for Stormers to consider trading with them. Not nice, but slightly better than in Allanak. Like in real life trading between a powerful tribe and a lesser; Stormers are cattle who will give you what you want if you offer just enough of your expired carrots to convince them its a good idea.

[Miradus]

This is going backwards.

What was the stated reason for the GMH hunters being disbanded? Wasn't it to have more indies providing goods to the GMH merchants?

There's no reason a guy should be walking around with 30 chalton horn. Find a merchant, either a GMH merchant or an indie merchant.

If there's problems there that are making the GMH not want to buy from indies then deal with those problems in game.

NPC merchants exchanging water or strips of beetle meat? Why in the heck would I ever do that? If I can greb up 5 black pearls I can damn sure greb up a bulbous sac. Nobody would utilize this except for the most absolute of newbies.

You want less player interaction in the economy? NPC merchant exchanges are the way to get there.

[Bahliker]

Why not try for realtime tracking of supply and demand value modifiers and do away with the 5 item limit on npc vendors altogether?

Each region already has a price modifier for each material type. Replace or supplement that with starting supply and demand values for both materials, item types, and specific items,that shift based on pc activity, trend toward normal each morning, and persist through reboots. So if you're selling a bunch of scrab legs in a market saturated with chitin, weapons, and that very item, expect to get 5 sid at most for your troubles. HOWEVER if somebody has been using them all up lately, you might get upwards of 50 sid each until things balance out.

Just ideas. The economy is SUPER important in a game that even hints at having one. It deserves more than stopgaps and patches to cover its shortcomings.

[Marauder Moe]

We are not even remotely close to the amount of players needed for any sort of real/dynamic economy and we never will be.

[Fathi]

This is going backwards.

What was the stated reason for the GMH hunters being disbanded? Wasn't it to have more indies providing goods to the GMH merchants?

There's no reason a guy should be walking around with 30 chalton horn. Find a merchant, either a GMH merchant or an indie merchant.

If there's problems there that are making the GMH not want to buy from indies then deal with those problems in game.

It's not that merchants and such aren't interested in buying from indies, it's that there's literally no point in buying certain items because they are found everywhere, can't be crafted into relevant stuff, and in some cases can't be crafted into anything at all. So those objects pile up out in the desert or in people's warehouses because there's no need whatsoever for anyone to buy them.

The PC to PC interaction isn't happening anyhow when there's no market for certain objects.

[BadSkeelz]

Miradus' point still stands. The the lack of interest in certain items can be addressed with giving those items a purpose. One way would be incorporating them in to more crafting recipes.

Given staff comments generally unsupportive towards Arm being a "single player game", I think solutions that encourage players to work together are going to get more traction than "let us more readily hand these things in to NPCs for reward."

[Miradus]

Scrab and chalton.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that's the clutter in question. But I don't agree with Fathi that those parts aren't needed. Scrab is used by armorers AND weaponsmiths, hide is used by armorers and clothiers, and ivory is used in a lot of high end recipes.

The reason it's laying out there is because the newbie merchant skillup consumption rate is lower than the NPC tarantula killfest rate.

Earlier this morning there were 8 players on and I saw about 20 dead chalton scattered about the west gate. I don't think it's players killing them for the most part.

You can travel all over and not see heaping piles of animal parts anywhere else except in that western desert. If the issue is mainly scrab and chalton then it's not particularly an economic problem. It's a zone boundary problem with some funky mobile code leading to mass mayhem.

[nauta]

On the solo/multi-player point)

There can be indirect interaction with the vendor system.  Suppose you have a vendor that has nothing in stock each reboot, but will accept scrab, chalton, dumb rocks, etc. in exchange for rations, rope, waterskins, etc.  Bob the solo hunter kills some scrab, skins the shell, and finds no PCs to trade with online, and so dumps the bits at this vendor.  Suzy the solo crafter logs in later and to her delight there are now three scrab shells available at the vendor, thanks to Bob.

[Miradus]

I like the "exchanger" npc model.

What I'd also like to see is a table set aside in the Gaj. The "exchange table". Sit at the exchange table and it's expected that you're either buying or selling. Facilitates commerce in a way that doesn't seem forced.

sit bar

>say (In a noobish manner) Hi, guys. I've got a chalton horn. Any of you want to buy it?

So instead it becomes ...

sit sandstone

An obese merchant says, in sirihish, growling irritably, "What you got, grebber?"

[Dar]

if it's npcs that kill the chalton, then they wouldnt be skinned. I recall riding past a LOT of objects that were the result of a skin, but were left to rot. I find it highly unrealistic. As a Delf I recall giving maaaaajor hassle to humans who did this on my land. Having a Delf who would do something like that is/should be practically unheard of.  Finding ways to encourage people to pick up the detrius for whatever reason is I think a good thing. Yes, responsible players would pick up what's needed and ldesc the crap out of left overs, to prevent them from being jarring. But admittedly that is sometimes a burden when there are 'dozens' of these left over objects.

In reality. The "alternative" currency would in my opinion be a GREAT boon to the game. Both as a 'cheap' currency like what is described here. As well as a 'expensive' currency, like something only Nobles are given as stipends with GMH trading high end gear 'only' in that type of currency.

[Fathi]

For the record I'd also be totally fine with more crafting recipes for some objects, I just didn't bring that up here since this was a thread about chit system and alternate currencies.

And it isn't just scrab and chalton parts, for the record. There's a couple other things too, as well as some forageables, that always seem to end up lying around in great piles.

[Delirium]

Any raw material left in a room that isn't deliberately placed there should, after about 90 RL minutes, 'be covered by blowing sand' and only be able to be found by "forage artifact".

[Synthesis]

I don't know why some of you are so obsessed with loot scattered about.

This isn't the early 1990's where it ate processor power and lagged everyone out...get a grip.

Who cares if there are a bunch of scrab legs and chalton horns on the ground?  What difference does it make?

[Delirium]

It's visually and thematically jarring.

[Synthesis]

I disagree.

It doesn't bother me at all.

[Fathi]

It doesn't bother me at all but I'm all about "may as well make this thing useful in some way, may as well give people something to do with XYZ."

[Delirium]

I disagree.

It doesn't bother me at all.

It's not a big deal, no. Still, you asked why people don't like it, so... that's my perspective on why.

It would make more thematic sense if we could sell everything we hunted, in this "resource poor" (lol) desert world.

[nauta]

I disagree.

It doesn't bother me at all.

It's not a big deal, no. Still, you asked why people don't like it, so... that's my perspective on why.

It would make more thematic sense if we could sell everything we hunted, in this "resource poor" (lol) desert world.

1. While we OOCly know that the scrab legs and whatever come from someone using the 'skin' command, if I come upon the Carnage in a room, I'll pretend it was some other monster ripping the thing apart.  Or I blame dwarves.

2. The rooms are pretty big outdoors, like a league by a league, so again I just pretend its random Carnage or something the vultures brought in.

Now rock piles.  That drives me bonkers!

[Synthesis]

I disagree.

It doesn't bother me at all.

It's not a big deal, no. Still, you asked why people don't like it, so... that's my perspective on why.

It would make more thematic sense if we could sell everything we hunted, in this "resource poor" (lol) desert world.

The question of what makes sense thematically has to be balanced with what makes sense for game design.

I don't really run into anyone who's not getting MORE than enough 'sid from various sorts of grebbing.  It doesn't seem like we need to add yet another revenue stream.

The giblet spam is, I'd reckon, from noob PCs (not players) practicing skinning. PC turnover is so high that there's a constant stream of rangers, warriors, subclass hunters/outdoorsmen/whatevers that need to get it raised up with a quickness so they can get that next-level greb, so they skin the heaps of dead chalton that the scrabs leave around.  Also, once rangers get skinning high enough, they need to practice tanning all of a sudden, and chalton hides are readily available for that...while the rest of the junk is unimportant.

Any way you slice it...doesn't seem like a big deal to me.  If anything, the problem is that the scrab density around Allanak is too high.  I'm at the point where, once my PCs don't need shit from scrabs, I just leave them critically wounded so the damn things don't respawn and I don't have to waste time with them anymore.

[Delirium]

... which is in large part why I suggested having it simply get "covered over" by sand within 90 mins...

lol

circle of life

[Synthesis]

I think things are fine as they are.

How do you write code that differentiates between a scrab body and a PC body?  How does the code tell the difference between an item that entered the room from a disarm or a wielded-weapons-death-drop or a body decaying away, from a skinning success?  How does the code know how long an item has been in the room?

It just seems like an awful lot of trouble to put this sort of thing together and avoid all the potential fuckups related to items automatically disappearing, relative to the benefit of "Oh, now some OCD people don't have to be skeeved out by clutter."

[Delirium]

[Akaramu]

For the record I'd also be totally fine with more crafting recipes for some objects, I just didn't bring that up here since this was a thread about chit system and alternate currencies.

And it isn't just scrab and chalton parts, for the record. There's a couple other things too, as well as some forageables, that always seem to end up lying around in great piles.

I wonder if the new meatcraft additions addressed this.

[Miradus]

One of my great thrills is coming across a dead player and going through their pockets. Any code to cover up chalton bits so someone isn't "thematically jarred" had better not take that joy away from me.

[Riev]

I mean, for the record, the large number of corpses isn't just from scrab-on-chalton crime. Some chalton spawn aggro and start just rutting around trying to be an alpha chalton.

I usually tell all my hunting partners to 'bury the things you don't want', or at the least to junk them. Its already concerning how there are seemingly hundreds of chalton running wild, killing each other, and no actual ranches, but thematically you're just inviting more vultures and spiders into the area.

I think the 'trade a dozen chalton horns for five packages of rations' is completely doable, HOWEVER I know this community. Someone would decide then that "well then if a package of rations costs 150 coins, and it takes a dozen horns, you're setting the price of those horns at 12-13 coins a piece, but I can sell them for more at a shop. I SHOULD GET TWO RATIONS FIX ECONOMY".

I think the Meatcraft project will, eventually, address the concerns. Maybe in the interim, make chalton a bit tougher, or stop the chalton-on-chalton crime?

[Miradus]

Heh. Okay. I'm feeling pretty mellow today so I won't quibble about this.

It doesn't really bother me to see a bunch of dead chalton and I've never NOT found a chalton still alive when I wanted to kill one. (Can't say the same about verrin hawks).

As for the economy, after I've bought my initial gear I find that coin just sticks to my fingers. Nenyuk sends me Christmas cards with all the coin I've left them.

[Feco]

I have a story about why dead Charlon were a boon for a PC of mine, but I can't share that one for a while, still.

_{I don't know why I posted this.}

[Miradus]

Want to talk about broken economics?

Almost always when I rent an apartment anywhere, I find that the stuff left in it is worth at least as much as the cost to rent it.

[nauta]

Want to talk about broken economics?

Almost always when I rent an apartment anywhere, I find that the stuff left in it is worth at least as much as the cost to rent it.

Hehe, two summers back there was a group of [redacted] gemmed who would monitor who owned what apartment then rent them after they died.

[Miradus]

Seems legit.

One apartment I rented had a chest with a bunch of body oils, candy, and a huge selection of lacy undergarments.

I felt icky just being in there.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Making stuff that isn't usuable otherwise give small ration type boons would probably be nice for those off peak players who never really see a merchant being stuff.

At least then that would handle that bit and give a purpose to the useless greb.

Dunno.  Just...let's not get to angry or anything.  It's just a discussion.  Not like any of us is currently coding it in as we type/read this.