Release Note discussion!

[Eyeball]

So when hard working newb hunters return from the field at the wrong time, they can no longer sell their five they can sell zero? Isn't this just going to result in none of the stores ever having any money?

Pretty much. Not just hunters, but grebbers and crafters too.

The shops regenerate a little money over time, but you'll be in competition with everyone else for it. So the following is probably good advice:

1. Small things have the best chance to sell, big things will be problematic.

2. There's little point in holding onto more than one or two of the same type of item unless you're going to use it yourself or give it to someone to use. If you more of it, toss it.

3. An exception to #1 might be Salarr, with the steady stream of new characters slowly equipping themselves over time, and with the largely high-priced items selling to NPCs once in a while.

All of the shops are going to look really, really full after a while, so at least the selection for buyers will be good.

[Cerelum]

Also, think of it as bartering.

I tried to sell something to a shop just the other day and got the "I don't have coins for that!" message.

I then looked at his stock and said, hey I want one of those watsits anyways.  Bought it with coins, then offloaded my things to him.  Essentially bartering.

Here, hold these coins, now buy this shit, we are even.

[Dar]

In my experience, whenever merchants coins were reset, they ended up with 'less' coins, not more.

It was a common strategy after a reboot to sell a few very high priced items to the merchants at low value. As low as 10 sid for something that would normally go for 300-600s.  Merchants sell to vnpcs and generate coin. The item they sell is random, but they do it regularly enough that they'll end up selling high value items and suddenly they've got 600-900 in their pockets. Then you come back with a bunch of low value items and offload en masse.

Ofcourse now it's all moot, since there will no longer be a reset of items, nor coin. But I doubt the problem of merchants being low on coin will be a common one, unless someone recently offloaded their merchandise on them. The problem of 5 item maximum will be more significant then lack of coin.


I genuinely do not like the idea of infinite sales of cheap items. Since even at the lowest of profits, people end up with thousands upon thousands. Ie RS Tailors. But I would love to have someone give out chits that you can exchane for free food and drink at the bars. That would be superb. 

[Cerelum]

Another thing I've never actually tried, is to use the offer item to barter items.

I'm assuming it works because it's in the help file, but I might need to actually explore if it really works or not in a realistic barter situation with say a weaponcrafter and raw materials.

help offer

Offer                                                                 (Shops)

   This command is used to initiate or continue haggling with a merchant.
If you are completely unfamiliar with the barter system of buying and
selling goods, see "help faq" under the heading "How do I purchase things
from shops?"
   There are two syntaxes for the offer command, but the general form
follows:

   offer <money or item> <money or item> <merchant>

   The difference between buying and selling is subtle, and sometimes does
not even involve an exchange of money. The best way to describe these two
processes is by example.
   In order to buy a sword, for instance, which a merchant wishes to open
for bidding at 100 coins, one could begin by typing:

   > offer 90 sword

   The merchant will either counter with his/her own offer or will stand by
the original price. Repeated attempts at lowering the price are allowed,
and you may manage to convince the merchant to agree.
   It is possible, however, to enrage merchants with insane offers or by
haggling too long on one item. It will be evident when a merchant is
beginning to get angry.
   In order to sell the same sword (which the merchant wants to buy at 60
coins, for example), one could type:

   > offer sword 65

   And the same process will operate as with buying.
   To exchange one item for another, say a shield for the sword:

   > offer shield sword

   In the case where multiple items of the same name are present, one can
refer to the item desired by its number (which is obtained by use of the
list command). Thus, the following may be perfectly acceptable:



[MORE]

   > offer 75 #12

   Once the deal is satisfactory, one must use the barter command (q.v.) to
end haggling and make the exchange.


Syntax:
   offer <your money or item> <their money or item> <merchant>

Example:
   > offer 90 sword (offer 90 coins for their sword)

> offer sword 65 (offer your sword for sale for 65 coins)

> offer shield sword (offer to trade your shield for their sword)

> offer 75 #12 (offer 75 coins for the 12th item in their list)

See also:
   barter, list, shops, skill haggle, tailor, view

[valeria]

I actually feel better about the coin change now that the items are static too. I wonder how it will affect those shops that had a rotating inventory by design, but I guess we'll find out!

[Barsook]

Another thing I've never actually tried, is to use the offer item to barter items.

I'm assuming it works because it's in the help file, but I might need to actually explore if it really works or not in a realistic barter situation with say a weaponcrafter and raw materials.

help offer

Offer                                                                 (Shops)

   This command is used to initiate or continue haggling with a merchant.
If you are completely unfamiliar with the barter system of buying and
selling goods, see "help faq" under the heading "How do I purchase things
from shops?"
   There are two syntaxes for the offer command, but the general form
follows:

   offer <money or item> <money or item> <merchant>

   The difference between buying and selling is subtle, and sometimes does
not even involve an exchange of money. The best way to describe these two
processes is by example.
   In order to buy a sword, for instance, which a merchant wishes to open
for bidding at 100 coins, one could begin by typing:

   > offer 90 sword

   The merchant will either counter with his/her own offer or will stand by
the original price. Repeated attempts at lowering the price are allowed,
and you may manage to convince the merchant to agree.
   It is possible, however, to enrage merchants with insane offers or by
haggling too long on one item. It will be evident when a merchant is
beginning to get angry.
   In order to sell the same sword (which the merchant wants to buy at 60
coins, for example), one could type:

   > offer sword 65

   And the same process will operate as with buying.
   To exchange one item for another, say a shield for the sword:

   > offer shield sword

   In the case where multiple items of the same name are present, one can
refer to the item desired by its number (which is obtained by use of the
list command). Thus, the following may be perfectly acceptable:



[MORE]

   > offer 75 #12

   Once the deal is satisfactory, one must use the barter command (q.v.) to
end haggling and make the exchange.


Syntax:
   offer <your money or item> <their money or item> <merchant>

Example:
   > offer 90 sword (offer 90 coins for their sword)

> offer sword 65 (offer your sword for sale for 65 coins)

> offer shield sword (offer to trade your shield for their sword)

> offer 75 #12 (offer 75 coins for the 12th item in their list)

See also:
   barter, list, shops, skill haggle, tailor, view

From what I recall, bartering for items for items doesn't work.

[Delirium]

I actually feel better about the coin change now that the items are static too. I wonder how it will affect those shops that had a rotating inventory by design, but I guess we'll find out!

This, and shops that only loaded with one of an item per reboot.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Are there any plans to implement barter for multiple items along with the money change to shops?

This could be a really cool change to a far more goods based economy. I can understand that halting at staunching the infinite coin flow would probably fix a lot, but I see this as the perfect time to take barter full circle, if there are any plans to.

[Jihelu]

I've traded items for items before.

It works but, the syntax is kinda funky

[JohnMichaelHenry]

I'm not sure I understand. Seems like the first person to get to the store is going to deplete all the coins now and there will be no more unless someone buys something.

NPCs have sold to VNPC for some time now.

So when hard working newb hunters return from the field at the wrong time, they can no longer sell their five they can sell zero?

When an shop sells to a VNPC they actually sell a real item. If it's not one of their "many" items, this depletes the store's stock of that item.

Also, why can't the shops of the GMH's just act as distributors for THEIR own goods and no one elses. The crafters that make (GMH) goods can just deposit them in the shop for some GMH credit or something. Then all the NPC indie merchants would not have to deplete all their coins buying silk dresses that realistically they shouldn't be able to afford. And if a person goes to a GMH shop, they can be assured the product they purchase is truly genuine.

I don't really understand what your suggesting and what the expected behaviour is to your suggestion. The two parts of this quote don't really seem to go together.

Sorry that was a bit vague. My current understanding is that currently GMH merchants may not sell to their own shop. Rather, they make their fine silks fit for a noblewoman and sell it to the scraggly npc merchant fella for a large of coins. Whait I am suggesting is that RATHER than having the GMH merchants make GMH only goods and sell it on the street to a grimy NPC merchant, they use it to stock their own shop. It seems strange how it is now that Kadian shops for example, will buy your old raggedy cloak but you gotta sell your silk dress to the grimy rinth rat.

[Barsook]

Staff, is there reason behind the idea that GMH's can't sell back to their shops?

[Namino]

Barter economy would be cool, but it's going to require a major overhaul I think in order to work, because of the narrow focus of most of the shops in Arm.

Shopkeepers tend to only purchase items that they sell, or fall into their category.

If you want to buy a piece of furniture from the furniture seller, to barter with him, you'll have to trade other pieces of furniture.

And if you're in the position to be producing all these pieces of furniture to barter with, why aren't you just making the chair you want yourself? I understand not everything is craftable, but it does limit the usefulness of bartering when you can only trade like for like.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I've traded items for items before.

It works but, the syntax is kinda funky

I mean on trading the trader one polished diamond for ten supple striped hides as opposed to the other way around.

As I understand it you can trade multiple items for one, but you can't currently trade one valuable thing for multiple items. Unless I've been completely fooled by wonky syntax.

Edit: oh I didn't think of above. Maybe an item sufficiently high over the value threshold could be accepted? Like the fur treder WOULD take that diamond because he'd be a fool not to. He could even pocket the thing as to not make every shop a general shop. This is just spitballing.

[Namino]

I mean on trading the trader one polished diamond for ten supple striped hides as opposed to the other way around.

Just to springboard this into my previous point: the hide trader doesn't want diamonds. You gotta go to the stone grebber to barter that, and he don't sell hides.

Womp, womp.

[gotdamnmiracle]

I mean on trading the trader one polished diamond for ten supple striped hides as opposed to the other way around.

Just to springboard this into my previous point: the hide trader doesn't want diamonds. You gotta go to the stone grebber to barter that, and he don't sell hides.

Womp, womp.

I made an edit.

[Vex]

Barter, buy and sell... to pcs.

I used to barter for poisons, with desert elves (and sold it for coin, to city elves). I traveled from Allanak, to go trade things (I stole... or got from elves, who probably stole them...) to tribes and foreigners, in exchange for everything, from interesting stories and information, to tribe-only goods. Once upon a time, before GMH sponsor roles were lazy shit, there was good, regular money working as a hunter for them. I'd trade materials they wanted, for goods I needed, or things I could sell elsewhere at a huge profit. Nowdays, the minute you try to sell to them, they're acting like you're wasting their time, and as soon as you suggest goods for goods, they're not interested... easier to just pay coins, keep interaction to a minimal, and get back to trying to mudsex some trashy Fale aide.

These kinds of changes are GOOD, because the game leans upon npcs too heavily. To the exclusion of interactions. I, too, find myself unloading stuff on npcs, I could be selling to pcs, if I thought pcs had even a smidgen of interest, in spending ten minutes doing business. Nevermind haggling... why be a merchant, if you can't/won't haggle? Haggling is like dancing, and you don't need the coded skill to do it well, when it's with a pc.

The two changes will make selling goods, MUCH harder... to npcs. The less coin available means crafters have LESS COIN to spend extravagantly on materials, bribes, and fluff. The less coin available to hunter/grebber, means less "BiS gear" at a few hours played, and no other reason to need money. Less is more, and it'll be ok, if you don't have 50k in the bank, or EBON RAPTOR ARMOR on every pc. In time, you'll renew your appreciation, for when you get one piece of it. And then another. Small goals, incentives to keep on scrapping, climbing, clawing your way to the next payout.

LESS COIN = MORE CO-DEPENDENCE.

Pc to pc to pc, is NOT a bad thing.

Instead of foraging a large bag worth of gems, or hunting two beetles worth of large bags full of animal parts... find out what people WANT and THEN GO GET IT. Sell your goods to pcs, anything and everything, push it out, rather than buy mats, spam in apartment, sell to npc, do nothing merchant-like ever. People will buy your shit. Especially if they, too, are struggling to get by. A 10 'sid chisel from a pc, is a lot cheaper, than 40 'sid one from an npc. If everyone is tight on funds, they WILL go to the pc for it, because you can save a ton.

Specialize. Be the guy, gal, or crew, who gets so-and-so what they need. Other people will want to sell to so-and-so, too, but he can only buy so much... and now you have competition, which is a GOOD thing. Instead of custom crafting ULTRA SILKY GEM STUDDED ARMORED CODPIECE +5, custom craft some affordable armor, that has a quality description. Lots of the cheap, npc stock armor, has like three line descs and often, don't even specify color or fine detail. A cuirass made out of chalton, with a well-done desc? Can totally be sold to pcs. I want your variety, if you'd only fucking sell it to me, instead of the salarr npc.

I don't even do any of this anymore, because it seems, to me, like nobody is interested. It's the same humdrum... roll a pc, prioritize strength, greb/hunt/craft to wealth, buy best stuff, wait for death/retirement, do over.

It's all, imo, very soulless, and makes it hard to care about anything going on the game, ic or ooc. Maybe, it's just me that finds the current routine, to be an interest killer.

[gotdamnmiracle]

No one is saying you shouldn't do that. But those shopkeepers exist for a reason and it'd be nice to see this turned into a more flexible system closer to the docs if we're doing overhauling already.

I imagine those shopkeepers are there for PCs that due to circumstance or timezone are playing iso. It's pretty hard to be someone's "guy" when the who command returns 10 players and you're all scattered. This is generally when you end up with hilarious pairings like a northern tribal trading with a rinthi because there's no one else playing and normally they'd want nothing to do with each other. I'll grant you PC to PC trade will nearly always be more rewarding. And that's how it should be.

[Namino]

Armageddon does not have the playerbase to support a primarily PC to PC bartering system. Purchasing weaponry from Salarr or a mirror from Kadius took me IRL weeks before as coordinating with the merchants was so difficult.

Now imagine having to potentially wait that long for cures, or armor repair. Yes, there are likely more people proportional to the total playerbase capable of making cures than filling Kadian orders so I wouldn't anticipate the runaround to be as severe, but I would still anticipate spending a long time looking for goods, especially in the barter system.

If there's 25 people logged on, what are the odds that they can produce the hat you want, while also wanting to buy the dagger you're bartering? Pretty slim, I'd wager. In a game with 35,000 players on the server, you'd do better. That game isn't Armageddon.

Allanak has 100,000+ citizens iirc. The vast majority of the economy is NPC driven because while a few hundred of those citizens are PCs, the rest are NPCs. There aren't enough of us to simulate the economy of a large city state. PC to PC is fine, but it needs to be supplemented by a strong NPC presence for the sake of both realism (you shouldn't struggle to sell a dagger in a city of 100,000 people) and for just general playability.

[Cind]

I don't get to play much, thus I don't really have time to be clanned, therefore any change that makes independence harder is not something I'll usually like. It'll often mean more time surviving and less time roleplaying for me.

Also, the way shops currently work, if you have more than five people online at any given time, you can no longer making a living selling something like tools or simple knives because it appears that the shopkeepers are now either broke or will run out of money soon. I suppose that would have happened if there had been one person online, if that person had toolmaking or knifecrafting, eventually. I assume this is part of a larger system overhaul that will make the economy more realistic for everyone, while actually giving people a reason to continue to craft.

I'm reminded of other games whose economies either work, or don't work, based on one premise; the fact that supplies and/or resellability is infinite. This means that if 4 or 40 players or 400 players are online, then you can still greb your obsidian shards, make five knives, sell them, and then buy drinks for your friends at night in the Gaj without worrying about being able to do that tomorrow, based on wonky code things and the natural insanity of other players. Is someone making forty diamond-studded ivory knives every day and selling them to the Salaari(lol) shop every day and has been for the last 10 RL hours? In all honesty, I don't see any reason why they ought not do that, except when the shopkeeper says, "Enough. I can't keep buying these, you have given me enough. Talk to my overseer if you wish to sell more to the House."

Some people, including people who play this game, really get off on making tons of money, and that's just one way of playing. I'm not speaking for myself, as I'm the one who you'll find making the simpler knives just to get ale money. Some people think this incredibly awkward game should get even harder, I think it should be catered to all the different playing styles. People who for some reason want to making thousands without spending any, and people who want advanced weapons skills. I suppose everyone has their opinion though. But, I mean, if we do get catered to, there's always city elves, that's always going to be a hard role no matter what.

[perfecto]

Shop
s

ree
tain

(eye twitch)


coins and

merchandise?


Are you trying to make us all go broke?!

or work together... damnit

[Dresan]

(Nessalin)
-Changes to allow race properties (from the SQL DB) to determine their abilities rather than so much of it
  being hard coded. This actually fixes several aspects to races that were never addressed.  Hopefully more
  of this in the future will give staff more flexibility and options in creating new and updating old races without
  requiring the intervention/assistance of a developer.

This is a cool change. I don't think the game can ever have enough antagonist races popping up. It might be interesting to see more mutated tribes.

I can't help but wonder what race issues this fixes but it seems this will make it easier to updates old races like city elves. Heh. Unfortunately most of the gripes with city elves are policy related not so much coded.

[Brokkr]

Every NPC has a race.  Things like skinning tables and stats are tied to race.

This isn't necessarily about PC races.

[gotdamnmiracle]

So would you say this is closer in cleaning up and continuing the meatcraft/hunting stuff as opposed to changing something among the PC races?

[Riev]

So would you say this is closer in cleaning up and continuing the meatcraft stuff as opposed to changing something among the PC races?

I would assume its more about moving more code into a location accessible by non-coder staff.

If you tried to add a Khajit race to Arm right now, you would need to have a coder to access some of the flat files, and make changes that for all anyone knows, could break half the server if a blank line is entered.

At least, that's my assumption. More work on Coders now, so that Storytellers/Admins without code knowledge can update later.

[Dresan]

However it can be about the PC races so I  assume the code will make it easier to allow subguild cannibal to eventually become a possibility.