Release Note discussion!

[Brytta Léofa]

Hal just clarified in the Discord that stamina loss is 0 for walking (not overencumbered) and the original statement was slightly incorrect.

Sorry, I froked out.

[Halaster]

Yeah, to be clear:  Walking in the city (not over encumbered) is 0 loss for everyone.  For city elves running in the city it's a base loss of 1 stamina.  For everyone else it's more.

[Void]

Could have big repercussions for c-elfs. Played a long-lived one and this would have changed my playstyle completely. Less fun, more poison darts etc. As a general rule it's dangerous to go below a certain amount of MV (imo anyway). So on a c-elf I'd be going perma-invis....but then that's going to get nerfed.

If celves had higher movement points I wouldn't see an issue. But despite the fact other races lose more stamina, this is a pretty damn big nerf and likely encourage more stealth meta. Celves are already the weakest race with one stat - agility - going for them. Now they are just weak, faster humans in terms of code and their ability to do things like not run the city without exhausting themselves, which I find jarring OOC given their documentation and their entire pride being built on their ability to run.

I'd say either increase celf movement points to delf levels and keep the stamina drain or ditch it. I see a future with no PC elves in it.

[X-D]

I do not even play celves, But I think they should at the very least get 0 stam loss on run if at say no problem enc or below.

[Brytta Léofa]

Giving celfs the same kind of endurance/movement point bonus that desert elves get (without the low cost for wilderness running) would be pretty fun.

(1) It would (re-?)enable the runs-everywhere-in-cities paradigm. There's nothing wrong with stamina loss when running (desert elves have it and it doesn't make them underpowered!); the question is how tired you get going from point A to point B.

(2) It would make city elf Byn troopers 100% more viable.

[Void]

From my perspective celves are now entirely obsolete. The easy solution, like said above, is to simply give them the movement points the documentation says they should have in the first place. Otherwise this is going to be the end of elves in arm. imo.

You're going to be perma sneaking. Then we probably get a nerf to stealth as well. So you're basically a really weak human now. May as well roll one of them so you can at least hit stuff and travel without all the race RP restrictions.

[Fredd]

i like the change. Celves can now outrun your round-ear assed guards easilly.

I've seen a LOT of cool celf changes in the last few years, and they actually look fun now. I might Roll A Rinthi Elf one day now.

[Armaddict]

Naw, I wouldn't call this the end of c-elves at all.  But I wouldn't call it good, either.  It's a nice standardization for c-elves to have a lower base cost than other races, but in the end...city elves run in the city either precisely because they -can- (i.e. To get places quickly), in which case they will not generally want to be winded when they get there, or because they are escaping...which is not an endurance race in the city, so having a slightly lower mv cost for it is a negligible bonus, if anything.

Running for 0 cost was something elves did because that's what elves do, run around effortlessly for long distances.  Within the city, 'long distances' is not really that long of a distance.  However, I don't think elves run in the city the majority of the time, so the scenarios this impacts are...few and far between.

It might be time to tackle the city-elf-in-the-desert problem, since you're already in that area.  As suggested above...let them be capable of movement in the desert.  If not to the degree of the desert elves for some reason, then to the degree that they can keep up with a Byn patrol for at least a good portion of a run.

[Fredd]

or because they are escaping...which is not an endurance race in the city, so having a slightly lower mv cost for it is a negligible bonus, if anything.

This is Valid. Humans should have their run cost in cities upped by 1, and dwarves upped by 2. Giants have long legs, and should stay the same.

H.elves have half an elf in them, and so should get/keep giant run costs. AKA the same as they are now.

It might need a slight more adjustment then what I listed, but i boiled it down for ease of example. But this would make the c.elf run feel much better. 

Also their base run speed, if it's not already, should be higher then a humans (maybe the same as a giant, because longer legs)

[Narf]

I'm strongly in favor of the increased stamina for city elves to put them on par with the desert elves. I'd even take it with an increase in movement costs in the desert to keep them from going wild too often.

[Shalooonsh]

*walks in and sets down a huge stack of receipts*

Hi.

So, ElfGuy here.

For the last umpteen years elves in Luir's Outpost haven't gotten free movement.

Elves in Luir's have been just fine.  We see them all the time, both city and desert elves, doing things like trying to bang humans or buying beer or running around doing elf shit. 

Number of elven deaths due to someone tiring out, going obsolete, and then dying after they cry out all their water:  Zero.

For the last several months since Tuluk opened, elves in the Warrens have been running about, making money, stealing from people, hugging trees, and doing maliciously sexual things with various types of rock.

Number of elven deaths due to someone tiring out, going obsolete, and not being able to hug a tree or kiss a Templar's ass:  Zero.

This isn't a huge issue.  Elves outside of Allanak have been just fine without being able to run the length and breadth of the city 5 times without stopping for ale.  All this means is that elves will have a slight energy expenditure moving through the city -- which, if you think about it, is very realistic.  Yes, they're quicker than everyone, yes, they have longer legs, but they do still have to bob and weave through or around crowds, they have to leap dramatically out of the way of wagons or templars.

They can still outrun anything in a city, especially if you play your elf smart, and use your terrain to the utmost advantage.  There should be zero issue keeping a sharp alive in any city as long as you, the player, are smart about it and don't let yourself get trapped.

D-elves don't get "free" movement out in the wastes... and if they did, I would have nerf'd that shit the moment I found out.  Because "free" movement without the use of magick should be impossible.

This doesn't make the race obsolete, this won't make every elf start to immediately sneak and hide everywhere (if they weren't already doing it) and this won't in any way change the fundamental way that elves are played.  This just means that a code mistake that was made a long, long time ago has finally been fixed.  It means the game, as a whole, is a better and more rewarding experience for everyone involved because things are more realistic.

Thankyou for coming to my ELFTalk.

[Armaddict]

Okay.  That's all mostly strawman.  I don't think anyone was inferring that it was game-breaking aside from one post that claimed it was the end of elves which was...surely hyperbolic.  However, that doesn't make the rest of what was said invalid.  The issue isn't that this is going to cause a death-machine-cycle of elves.  The 'issue' is merely that it's one of the few boons that city-elves often enjoyed, particularly since (and you can correct me if I'm wrong) city elves are largely played in Allanak over where you're talking about the movement costs resulting in very little problems elsewhere.

I'm well aware how quickly elves run in the city.  That's what makes the rest of what I said regarding 'why city elves run' in my post pertinent.  They don't do it because of how fast it is.  They don't escape because of how long they run.  They escape because they sprint really fast in the city. 

It's not a freak out just because something happened that a lot of people had something to say about.  It's not something to get irritated over because we saw that things were being looked at in a specific area and thought it would be a good time to visit something related.  It's not weird that enough people thought of it as an elven trait that removing it feels like something other than a bug fix.

I'm uncertain of whether I'm reading your post with a different tone than what you intended, but you seem irritated that people didn't want that to go away.  Don't be, it's really not a big deal that people are focusing on elves 'running' trait being actually worthwhile in practical use.

[Lotion]

maliciously sexual things with various types of rock

can you be more specific?

[Narf]

For the record, the reason I think city elves should have their stamina boosted to be on par with desert elves numerically is so that they can use some combat maneuvers before they run off. City elves get worn down really easily from other stamina-draw code. It's a minor issue, granted, only comes up once in a while, but it is a significant disadvantage they get in comparison to desert elves that isn't really explained by the fact that desert elves are better in the desert.

Though even for people that aren't getting up to shennagins, there's an argument for just making running less time consuming for a group of people that are supposed to be good at it. Raising their stamina means they can do most or all of whatever route they wanted to do without stopping to rest in the middle. (Alleys > Southside > Alleys, or Eastside > Westside (shennanegins) > Eastside, or what have you).

[Shalooonsh]

Couple things:

As to the strawman - I don't see it.  I'm bringing facts to the table.  Elves outside of Allanak have had movement costs this entire time, and they've been fine with it.  That's not strawman, that's just facts.

As to elven population levels - I have seen far more active elves at once in Tuluk than I have in Allanak since Tuluk opened.  That's literal stats.  I had to pump the breaks on Akai Sjir applicants because there were already 6 active Akai in the north.  Allanaki numbers are far lower for the 'rinth and southside. 

Speed vs. Distance - this backs up both of our points.  It isn't the distance.  But the complaint seems to be mostly about the fact that the movement isn't "free" anymore.  If I'm misreading this, then that's on me, but that seems to be the crux of the disappointment.

Sorry that it seems like something other than a bug fix - but that's simply what it is.  It's not us nerfing elves.  It is us making the world act like it should.  The rooms were built incorrectly, we corrected it... that had an impact on the people who most often used those rooms.  We are looking at if things need balancing on both sides.

I will admit some irritation.  Part of that irritation is self focused - I have played several c-elves and I have never honestly even noticed that I didn't lose stamina in city.  Part of it is focused on the negativity.  I do understand that this is a change to how elves will be played... that's okay.  Things change.  Often we change them for the better.  Growth can be difficult.  The game is ever evolving, often times due to feedback from players.

As for the suggestion about elves getting a boost to stamina:  I'm honestly all for it.  We are in discussions about that. 

To explain the difference in d-elf and c-elf desert movement:

City Elves grow up their whole lives running and sneaking to survive in the city.  This means taking short alleys, dodging around or through crowds, but by and large it means moving over very flat surfaces and focusing on the problems that are in front of and around you to survive.  It makes them natural sprinters.  High speed, high yield, short distance.

Desert Elves grow up their whole lives on hard terrain.  The tablelands may all be N,E,W,S but the realism of the terrain is that there are boulders, broken mesas, gorges, rises and falls all over the place.  It is a harder terrain to survive on, and there's a much diminished protection from the sun.  City elves can find shade all over the place, but desert elves can not.  This means that they're much more hard baked than city elves, and this is reflected by that higher endurance.  Additionally, they are distance runners, not sprinters, because that is how they survive.  They have to run out, kill things, and haul the goods back home whereas a city elf can drop by a restaurant for an ale and a burger if they want.  Still high speed (but not as fast), long pace, long distance.

[Armaddict]

As to the strawman - I don't see it.  I'm bringing facts to the table.  Elves outside of Allanak have had movement costs this entire time, and they've been fine with it.  That's not strawman, that's just facts.

Well.  There can be facts in strawmen.  Strawmen are arguments made to fight arguments that aren't being made.  So telling me how few elves die due to being exhausted in the city when I'm not talking about it causing death has little to do with anything, factual or not.

As to elven population levels - I have seen far more active elves at once in Tuluk than I have in Allanak since Tuluk opened.  That's literal stats.  I had to pump the breaks on Akai Sjir applicants because there were already 6 active Akai in the north.  Allanaki numbers are far lower for the 'rinth and southside.

Makes sense on a short-term scale, really wouldn't expect any different.  A bunch of people being able to go back to a formerly closed down place?  Do the same stats over a long period of time, excluding the time spent in-between when there was only one option.  Likewise exclude the time where there was no clan in one location but there was in the other.
I could be wrong, but I'd be very comfortable with gambling.  Stats are a funny thing with how you collect data and apply it.

Sorry that it seems like something other than a bug fix - but that's simply what it is.  It's not us nerfing elves.  It is us making the world act like it should.  The rooms were built incorrectly, we corrected it... that had an impact on the people who most often used those rooms.  We are looking at if things need balancing on both sides.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know it's a bug fix.  Unfortunately, it also means that something that was previously a feature for many is now gone.  Of course there will be some things to say about it, that's the nature of the thing.  Now the discussion isn't oriented on a 'nerf', but rather 'world acting like it should'.  It's not saying don't fix the bug, it's saying the behavior the bug fixes leaves something behind that was previously not something people thought needed fixing, it seems.  At least by the vocalization, there's probably a majority of players who simply have no horse in that race (zing!  Race!  Get it?!).  Glad it brought up discussion for you guys though, regardless of what you guys do or don't do as a result!

I will admit some irritation.  Part of that irritation is self focused - I have played several c-elves and I have never honestly even noticed that I didn't lose stamina in city.  Part of it is focused on the negativity.  I do understand that this is a change to how elves will be played... that's okay.  Things change.  Often we change them for the better.  Growth can be difficult.  The game is ever evolving, often times due to feedback from players.

No need for irritation, man.  I know the tone gets mixed up, but the complaining is often mixed up with the feedback, ideas, and constructive criticism, and vice versa; sometimes the ideas, feedback, and criticisms get mixed up with just being complaints.  They're adjacent to each other, and unfortunately tone of text is often different than tone we'd have in a conversation.

I -did- try to convey that I don't think this is actually that big of a deal.  It just changes something, and is in the vicinity of other things that are tangentially related that would be really cool to put in there.  If it affects anyone more than anyone else, it's the non-stealthy elves that you really just don't see -too- much of, but even then...

I apologize if any of this comes, or came, across as me doing anything other than jumping at the opportunity to get more bones tossed to elvenkind.  I shall always fight for the downtrodden!

[Brokkr]

So, city elves would previously not run for zero cost everywhere in cities, because some of the rooms were rsector city instead of inside.  So it was fairly inconsistent. 

On the other hand, this will affect non-elves.  Ever be at very heavy encumbrance and notice that you can walk down Caravan Road without draining stamina, but if you went off down into certain streets in Commoner's Quarter or travel Templar's Way suddenly you are loosing stamina?  Now that those roads are rsector city, you will loose stamina everywhere for that.

[Armaddict]

On a non-elf note, I -did- notice that the 'rinth sometimes had a thing where sandstorms wouldn't affect the alleys, but darkness still did.  Which seems weird.  Is there going to be all sorts of differences in behavior based around that?

[Halaster]

On a non-elf note, I -did- notice that the 'rinth sometimes had a thing where sandstorms wouldn't affect the alleys, but darkness still did.  Which seems weird.  Is there going to be all sorts of differences in behavior based around that?

Yeah, I modified the weather in the Labyrinth so it can't get quite as bad when storms do happen as the rest of the city, to reflect the more tightly-packed buildings and that you're mostly running around in alleyways.  Before, because all the streets were sector inside, they got no weather affects.

[Patuk]

Yeah, this is a nerf to an already weak race. A warranted nerf, maybe - rooms being flagged wrong shouldn't be a thing. But a nerf it is, and it's a little sad.

[Halaster]

Ok, based on community feedback, we've added 30 stamina to city elves.  It should be effective immediately.

[Fredd]

Ok, based on community feedback, we've added 30 stamina to city elves.  It should be effective immediately.

That's really solid. But people are going to sleep on how significant this is. This should make it so a C. elf with a decent end roll can make a trip from Allanak to Luirs with just one stop in the middle.

[Void]

*walks in and sets down a huge stack of receipts*

Hi.

So, ElfGuy here.

For the last umpteen years elves in Luir's Outpost haven't gotten free movement.

Elves in Luir's have been just fine.  We see them all the time, both city and desert elves, doing things like trying to bang humans or buying beer or running around doing elf shit. 

Number of elven deaths due to someone tiring out, going obsolete, and then dying after they cry out all their water:  Zero.

For the last several months since Tuluk opened, elves in the Warrens have been running about, making money, stealing from people, hugging trees, and doing maliciously sexual things with various types of rock.

Number of elven deaths due to someone tiring out, going obsolete, and not being able to hug a tree or kiss a Templar's ass:  Zero.

This isn't a huge issue.  Elves outside of Allanak have been just fine without being able to run the length and breadth of the city 5 times without stopping for ale.  All this means is that elves will have a slight energy expenditure moving through the city -- which, if you think about it, is very realistic.  Yes, they're quicker than everyone, yes, they have longer legs, but they do still have to bob and weave through or around crowds, they have to leap dramatically out of the way of wagons or templars.

They can still outrun anything in a city, especially if you play your elf smart, and use your terrain to the utmost advantage.  There should be zero issue keeping a sharp alive in any city as long as you, the player, are smart about it and don't let yourself get trapped.

D-elves don't get "free" movement out in the wastes... and if they did, I would have nerf'd that shit the moment I found out.  Because "free" movement without the use of magick should be impossible.

This doesn't make the race obsolete, this won't make every elf start to immediately sneak and hide everywhere (if they weren't already doing it) and this won't in any way change the fundamental way that elves are played.  This just means that a code mistake that was made a long, long time ago has finally been fixed.  It means the game, as a whole, is a better and more rewarding experience for everyone involved because things are more realistic.

Thankyou for coming to my ELFTalk.

You can't just conflate fundamentally different institutions and act like everything is the same everywhere. Allanak has specific dynamics. Everyone knows this.

[Void]

Also want to clarify I think the stamina change fixes the issue and is a good change.

[Brytta Léofa]

Also want to clarify I think the stamina change fixes the issue and is a good change.

+1. All of these have been good changes and the stamina boost balances it right.