Sneak and Hide: Once More With Gusto

[nauta]

So, this falls into both RP and Code, and I know it's come up before, but I'm going to try to have a whack at it, and see if we can't come up with an idea for a solution.

Problem.  As a new player (or even an experienced player who hasn't learned how sneak and hide work) it is confusing to know when you are hiding, when you are sneaking, and how others will view you and your emotes.  A recent example: a fellow hunter walked right past me as I was sneaking and hiding with my mount.  I thought: Well, did they implement code so that the mount hid when you are hiding?  So we went through a series of: Hold there, and tell me if you see me?  Turns out the fellow hunter was just, as they OOC'd me to my amusement, OOCly blind and not actually IC blind.

Why is this a problem?  I think we can RP better as sneaks if we know how the world around us perceives us as sneaks.  I don't want to dictate RP, but you can have a lot more fun (and a lot less immersion breaking WTF moments) if you know how to sneak/hide properly (e.g., using change ldesc, semote, hemote, and emote to their full multi-mode advantage).  However, this is almost impossible to learn on your own.  With other skills, you can watch more experienced players emote out the skill, and learn from them.  But with sneak, this is not as easy, since you can't see their emotes.

Solutions?

1. Find a friend.  This is the current solution, and it isn't ideal for a few reasons.  (1) First, it doesn't actually tell you what others are seeing.  (2) Second, it is immersion breaking.  You way someone, pop into hide, and ask if they can see you now.  I find this fairly clunky.

2. A mirror room, perhaps even an OOC room like change locdesc.  This is the solution I'd like to pursue.  This is a room or set of rooms where you can test out what others see -- you would get no SKILL improvements in this room.  You can, for instance, go into this room and type hide then test out hemote and semote and emote and see what the world would see when you do these things.  You can also test if various commands break hide, e.g., change hand es ep, the arrange command, sneezing, whispering, etc.  You might have an NPC in this room which you can pop into and view things as they see them -- useful for seeing what people see when you have sneak engaged.

A mirror room would also allow new players to test out the various symbols in the emote command, e.g, %, ^, !, etc.

Hide/sneak are complicated, and there are a lot of weird quirks around them, but I think something like this would be really helpful.  Of course, we have to weigh the pros and the cons here -- the biggest con being the code.  Second biggest is I don't know if I've thought through #2 enough.  Hence, discussion!

[Miradus]

If you're hidden (or think you are) do emotes break hide? Do they just say "someone does x"?

Should I be using hemote?

[Bushranger]

Use hemote if you're doing something that is hidden.
Use emote if you're doing something that is not being hidden.

If you are hidden and you use an emote then you are not taking care to keep what you're doing hidden. If you are hidden and you're taking care to remain hidden then use a hemote.

[nauta]

Use hemote if you're doing something that is hidden.
Use emote if you're doing something that is not being hidden.

If you are hidden and you use an emote then you are not taking care to keep what you're doing hidden. If you are hidden and you're taking care to remain hidden then use a hemote.

There's also semote.

Let's see if I remember:

1. semote.  If successfully hidden: NOTHING.  If unsuccessfully hidden: The grey guy emotes something.

2. hemote.  If successfully hidden (and they fail their watch check): NOTHING.  If successfully hidden (and they pass their watch check): You notice: someone emotes here.  If unsucessfully hidden: You notice: The grey guy emotes here.

3. emote.  If successfully hidden: Someone emotes here.  If unsuccessfully hidden: The grey guy emotes here.

I think.  I could be wrong on #2.  Hence, I stick to semote and emote while hidden.  Emote is when you want everyone to notice your action, but as: Someone farts here.  Semote is when you want only staff to notice your action.

But that's why I want a mirror room!  I can't remember.
3. emote: If successfully hidden:

[manipura]

Semote is silent emote.

I'm not really sure what you mean by it being for staff to notice your action?



Similar to hemote, it shouldn't be used to interact with people, because if they aren't actively watching you they'll probably miss the action.

[Fathi]

Provided staff are cool with discussing the mechanics of hide/sneak like this (feel free to edit my post if not):

1. If you are hidden, an emote will show as 'someone' does the emote. If you are not hidden it's a regular emote.

2. If you are hidden a hemote will show as 'someone' does the hemote but others in the room may have a chance to notice it. If you are not hidden it's a regular hemote with only a chance for others to notice it.

3. If you are hidden a semote will not show to anyone in the room but you. If you are not hidden it will look like a regular emote.

There are various ways other players can improve their perception of you which could potentially alter the outcome of a hide check and thus your emotes to them. So a "test room" wouldn't really help much in that regard, because what shows up to the other person is just as much dependent on their skills/commands as yours.

This honestly seems like it might complicate things further and/or make it more confusing, frankly, because due to other people's perception skills, your hide/sneak will not always behave as it would in the "test room."

[Lizzie]

Whether or not you are successful is not dependent exclusively on your skill in hiding/sneaking. It is ALSO dependent on the other person's perception skills, AND their hide/sneak skill (if applicable).

A mirror room is great, if you want to see whether or not you succeed against your own perception check right this minute. It won't help you at all if your perception sucks or is better than your hide/sneak skill, and it won't help you at all against someone else with a completely different perception level than you, at a future moment in time.

If you're hiding, then no one will see you. You can't know if they see you or not. That's one of the risks you take when you try.

However - I wouldn't mind an actual *failure* message - something that means you weren't successful at all (not just to the person you are trying to sneak past or hide from).

Something like:
>You try to blend in with your surroundings but there's nothing in which you can blend.

and

>You clumsily tiptoe west.

Something to let you know that you were very obviously trying to sneak, or very obviously trying to hide, and failing utterly.

[Bushranger]

Deciding what your emote looks like based on if you are hidden or not is NOT how you should be deciding what to use. Do not try to think "Was my hide skill successful" instead just think about what you are doing and how you are doing it. Each of these is meant to represent different things so you shouldn't use whichever one you want to stay hidden or not.

Use emote when you are doing something openly, something that is obvious to others in the nearby area and which could make a sound like footfalls, scraping of furniture or the like.

Example: The woman pushes a chair in at central table in the room as she passes it and nods to the dwarf with the big nose.

Reasons to use emote - The woman is interacting with the central table in the room which is pretty obvious and pulling back the chair may cause for scrapping sounds.  The woman is also interacting with another person in the room and if this was a hemote or a semote the dwarf might not notice. Even if the woman was hidden when she did these things they are all very obvious.


Use hemote when you are trying to do something subtley, something that is not immediately obvious to others nearby and which could make some sound but pains are being taken to avoid that. Try not to use hemote to involve other people (as they may not notice it) unless that's the point. Try not to use hemote to involve things that are central to the environment.

Example: The woman slips past the central table near the edge of the room and looks towards the dwarf with the big nose.

Reasons for using hemote - The woman is not directly interacting with any of the nearby people or main features of the room. She is moving though and her foot might hit a loose floorboard or she might scrape against the wall. She is looking towards the dwarf but isn't drawing any attention to this like in the previous example.

Use semote only when what you're doing is completely silent. It's similar to hemote but doesn't make any sound at all which  is important to consider if a person is sleeping, if the room is dark or visibility is limited because of storm code or magick.

Example: The woman carefully slips around the central table, taking care to step quietly in her footpads and holding her breath as she glances to the dwarf with the big nose.

Reasons to use semote - The woman is not only trying to be sneaky, she has also taken care to dress appropriately in footpads to silence her steps and is holding her breath a she sneaks past.

[Bushranger]

Additional semote information. If you are NOT hidden but in a dark room you can and should use semote for things that are completely silent. Other people in the room won't see the semote unless they can see in the dark!

[Reiloth]

Yeah, I don't think semote shows as an emote if you aren't hidden. I think only people who can see you can have a chance to notice you (watch or listen?).

From the help file:

Semote                                                              (Emoting)

   Silent emotes should only be used to express actions that are completely
silent.  They will only show to people who can see you, so if they are
asleep, dying, or otherwise unable to see you, they will not get any
indication you did something.
   Semote supports a small language which allows you to refer more
effectively to other characters. See 'help emoting' for more details
on using the language.
   You can also use @ to place your short description arbitrarily within
the emote.

Notes:
   Avoid using this command for emotes that would physically interact with
objects or characters.  They will not get a message if they can't see you.

[LauraMars]

semote = visible only to those you can see you (semote never behaves like a hemote. It is binary. You can see it or you can't see it.)
hemote = visible to those who are watching you OR who pass a watch check
emote = visible to everyone even if they can't see you

[Delirium]

Keep in mind you can be "successfully" hidden, but someone with a high perception skill might still see you / your emotes.

[whitt]

semote = visible only to those you can see you (semote never behaves like a hemote. It is binary. You can see it or you can't see it.)
hemote = visible to those who are watching you OR who pass a watch check
emote = visible to everyone even if they can't see you

I've always thought a regular emote should act like a semote.  And you should have to intentionally emote! (or something) to emote in way folks that can't see you would be able to notice anyway.

[Akaramu]

Here's my 2 cents as someone who hasn't yet figured out all the details concerning the hide code:

When hiding, I always use hemote unless I'm trying to be sneaky and silent. If sneaky and silent, = semote.

I use emote when doing something blatantly obvious, for instance 'From somewhere within the gathered crowd, someone throws a rotten petoch fruit at the stage'.

It does make sense to use emotes occasionally. Like, when you bump into someone in the bazaar and want them to freak out. Or if you're a batshit insane yandere and want your beloved prey to know they're being stalked. 

[Miradus]

So there's three separate emotes that do three different types of emoting and functionality that I'm supposed to use rapidly in a situation where I'm hiding?

Um. Yeah. Y'all are going to just have to forgive me if I occasionally use the wrong one.

[nauta]

So, back to the room idea:

What if there were:

Three Rooms.  Room one echoes to you what someone with a successful SCAN vs. your HIDE check would perceive.  Room two echoes what someone with a successful WATCH vs. your HIDE checek would perceive.  Room three would echo what someone with neither WATCH nor SCAN would perceive.

[Akaramu]

So there's three separate emotes that do three different types of emoting and functionality that I'm supposed to use rapidly in a situation where I'm hiding?

Um. Yeah. Y'all are going to just have to forgive me if I occasionally use the wrong one.

Why rapidly? Most of the time I'm hiding I have all the time in the world to emote since no one is waiting for a response from me. 

[Miradus]

So there's three separate emotes that do three different types of emoting and functionality that I'm supposed to use rapidly in a situation where I'm hiding?

Um. Yeah. Y'all are going to just have to forgive me if I occasionally use the wrong one.

Why rapidly? Most of the time I'm hiding I have all the time in the world to emote since no one is waiting for a response from me. 

Most of the time I'm hiding I'm either trying to keep someone from killing me or trying to kill them.

[whitt]

So there's three separate emotes that do three different types of emoting and functionality that I'm supposed to use rapidly in a situation where I'm hiding?

Um. Yeah. Y'all are going to just have to forgive me if I occasionally use the wrong one.

So... just thinking this through...

if you're a sneak and don't want to hit the wrong emote, this would work no?

alias emote semote
alias emote! emote

then anytime you:

Code Select Expand

emote slips through the crowd quietly patting pockets and cloaks
it would actually come out a semote and only those that can see you would get the emote.

meanwhile, while it's time to throw the rotten petoch fruit, you could:

Code Select Expand

emote! From within the crowd, @ throws a rotten petoch fruit at the stage
and get the <someone> that triggers when a hidden character emotes?

If you're not hidden and you emote or emote!, it'll be identical because everyone can see you, yes?

[Miradus]

That's a clever solution. I dig it.

[Riev]

I feel like 90% of the time, semote is the same as emote, unless hidden. So have semote and emote aliased isn't a TERRIBLE idea, with the emote! alias as well.

Nice workaround.

[Feco]

One strategy to get used to the different emote commands is to just use them all the time, hiding or not.

Always use semote if your action is silent.  (sem waves a hand at ~guy.)

Always use hemote if you're doing something subtle that you want people to have a chance to see. (hem lets loose a quiet fart.)

Always use emote when you're doing something overt that anyone nearby could see. (em blows a snot-rocket in %breed direction.)

It becomes second nature, soon enough.

[Reiloth]

My personal 'hiding etiquette' is that if i'm obvious enough to do an emote, I typically either slip out soon after or reveal myself (if it's an obvious enough action). I stick to hemotes and semotes when i'm actively hidden and not trying to reveal myself. I also may have my PC accidentally emote instead of hemote, but it leads to the aforementioned sort of 'timer' where I don't want to elbow someone (especially if they don't scan right after and obviously don't have the skill). That sort of 'neener neener' or hiding mid conversation annoys me as a player, so I can imagine it annoys others.

[manipura]

So, back to the room idea:

What if there were:

Three Rooms.  Room one echoes to you what someone with a successful SCAN vs. your HIDE check would perceive.  Room two echoes what someone with a successful WATCH vs. your HIDE checek would perceive.  Room three would echo what someone with neither WATCH nor SCAN would perceive.

I think what a number of people are leaning toward is the fact that you shouldn't be deciding how to go about RPing based on how your sneakiness appears to others.  If your PC would be in a situation where they are hiding and doing subtle, unnoticeable things... they should hide and hemote.  Without worrying how it looks to the other people in the room.  As far as you are concerned, you're hiding and rubbing your fingers nervously together just fine, assuming it's going unnoticed.
If your PC would be in a situation where they are hiding and sneaking about and doing silent actions, then they should hide and sneak about and semote without worrying how it looks to another PC.  As far as you are concerned, you're hiding and slipping along down the shadowy alley, smirking to yourself just fine.
Just like in RL when you're doing something shady, you usually think you're being all sorts of sneaky...and you realize you -aren't- when you notice you get spotted.

The other thing people seemed to be touching on are the differences in the emotes.  Personally, I find hemote and semote to sort of overlap in a lot of cases.  Hidden, subtle emotes are actually silent as well (usually), so if I use one over the other it's not usually game-breaking in my eyes, so long as I avoid using s/hemote if I'm interacting with someone.  Smiling to myself while I'm in a crowd is both subtle and silent, so in my opinion getting hung up on whether it's hemote or semote is silly.  However, if I'm doing something where another person is targeted and I want -them- to know my actions (what comes to mind is the example in another thread of someone on a bench) then I don't think I shouldn't be hemoting, because in no way is what I'm doing hidden or subtle.

That being said, I sometimes wish there was a way to hidden emote from everyone -else- in a room besides one person.  If I am sitting beside someone and casually brush my fingers against their thigh under the table or something, I shouldn't be using hemote, because it's not exactly hidden if I'm involving another person, but it's not as if it's an action being broadcast to the entire room.  If I semote this action, everyone who can see me sees it, when really they maybe wouldn't.  An option for a targeted hemote would let you keep your subtle actions from -almost- everyone in the room.

Code Select Expand

themote Malik Under the table, @ brushes the back of a hand against %malik thigh.
It's a regular hemote to anyone else in the room, they either notice it or they don't, based on their perception.  Malik absolutely notices it though, because you're making a point of making sure he notices.

[manipura]

One strategy to get used to the different emote commands is to just use them all the time, hiding or not.

Always use semote if your action is silent.  (sem waves a hand at ~guy.)

Always use hemote if you're doing something subtle that you want people to have a chance to see. (hem lets loose a quiet fart.)

Always use emote when you're doing something overt that anyone nearby could see. (em blows a snot-rocket in %breed direction.)

It becomes second nature, soon enough.

Agreed. 
If it's a silent emote, semote whether you are hidden or not. 
If it's a subtle, hidden emote, hemote whether you're hidden or not.
And if it's a regular emote, emote whether you're hidden or not. 
The action you're doing doesn't always have anything to do with whether you're hiding or not.  I can be standing right out in the middle of the room for all to see when I subtly smirk to myself or bite my lip.  I'm not hidden but my little actions might be.

Using the proper type of emote no matter the situation or 'audience' I may have makes immersion in my character a bit more seamless, because I'm thinking of what my PC would do, not how someone else might be seeing me.