Spoilage and crafting

[Miradus]

Some preserved food does last a long time.

I've got some dried meat in-game right now that's lasted longer than some of my characters.

[Akariel]

There are containers that help with the preservation of food. Find them IC (or mastercraft them).

[manipura]

As a commoner?  Well you should be working to get your food - and if you've somehow obtained more than you can eat in the next few days, why are you complaining?

This has been explained fairly well already, but the people who have issue with food spoilage don't really have problems with being unable to stockpile days and days worth of food.  Or being unable to make a living off of hunting or whatever other reasons have been suggested before.  I don't think anyone has ever really said something like "I don't like the food spoilage code because now I can't pile up 107 flanks of chalton meat."

The issue is when you have a particular food item for someone and then because your play times don't match up for a few days, it spoils before you can give it to them.  Presumably in your PC's virtual time, and in their virtual time, you have had time to see each other, but because you haven't been logged in together, the food in question spoils.

I've had people ask my character for specific food items, and I've had people want to give my character food items.  But because play times haven't lined up the food in question has spoiled, when in reality the characters would have been able to see each other during virtual time.  After the third or fourth time of play times failing to line up, I lose interest in doing the same thing over again, and I don't want to be the person asking another player to ride across the world yet again for the same thing they've done three times already.

[Akaramu]

I'd also double the timer on preserved food. That should last MUCH longer than raw food does.

Not having assessed a whole lot of IC food lately, I assumed this was already the case. There are food items which literally have 'lasts almost forever' in their description. Desert rations come to mind. Realistically, some food types like hard cheese should last months, if not years.

[IntuitiveApathy]

As a commoner?  Well you should be working to get your food - and if you've somehow obtained more than you can eat in the next few days, why are you complaining?

This has been explained fairly well already, but the people who have issue with food spoilage don't really have problems with being unable to stockpile days and days worth of food.  Or being unable to make a living off of hunting or whatever other reasons have been suggested before.  I don't think anyone has ever really said something like "I don't like the food spoilage code because now I can't pile up 107 flanks of chalton meat."

The issue is when you have a particular food item for someone and then because your play times don't match up for a few days, it spoils before you can give it to them.  Presumably in your PC's virtual time, and in their virtual time, you have had time to see each other, but because you haven't been logged in together, the food in question spoils.

I've had people ask my character for specific food items, and I've had people want to give my character food items.  But because play times haven't lined up the food in question has spoiled, when in reality the characters would have been able to see each other during virtual time.  After the third or fourth time of play times failing to line up, I lose interest in doing the same thing over again, and I don't want to be the person asking another player to ride across the world yet again for the same thing they've done three times already.

But there were people complaining about having to hunt at inopportune times?

The other issue brought up sounds just more an issue that playtimes don't line up.  That's an issue that wrecks a whole lot of things, not just being able to pass over food before it spoils.  I wouldn't be opposed to extending the rotting time overall which might help mitigate that problem, and sounds like there already are food-saver type items that also might help, but having things last forever as it was before just so that you can do (food -> playtimes don't match up) as opposed to (lots of other things -> playtimes don't match) up just doesn't seem like a good enough reason to scrap the whole code when it has other benefits besides. 

[Armaddict]

But there were people complaining about having to hunt at inopportune times?

No, you're talking about me listing off the pros and cons of what this addition has thusfar added, particularly in respect to the discussion beforehand of why it would be nice.  Most of the pros from that list are not realized at this point (i.e. They're not happening on any noticeable scale), and it has actually resulted in -less- interaction between people on the food front at least in my experience.

That is not a complaint.  That is part of a synopsis of why I think it is not a suitable addition to keep around (I notice that you ignored the rest of that list of observations and reduced it to me just wanting to stockpile food).  It's not a terrible idea.  It's not unrealistic.  I just don't think the pro and con level up necessarily in a favorable way, and as in many things, just because it was put in or taken out doesn't mean that it can't be undone when it shows less 'good things' than expected.

Is it going to break my will if it stays around?  No.  Am I throwing a fit over it?  No.  I just posted about my experiences with the change and why I don't find them 'worth it' in terms of gameplay versus gameworld.

[IntuitiveApathy]

But there were people complaining about having to hunt at inopportune times?

No, you're talking about me listing off the pros and cons of what this addition has thusfar added, particularly in respect to the discussion beforehand of why it would be nice.  Most of the pros from that list are not realized at this point (i.e. They're not happening on any noticeable scale), and it has actually resulted in -less- interaction between people on the food front at least in my experience.

That is not a complaint.  That is part of a synopsis of why I think it is not a suitable addition to keep around (I notice that you ignored the rest of that list of observations and reduced it to me just wanting to stockpile food).  It's not a terrible idea.  It's not unrealistic.  I just don't think the pro and con level up necessarily in a favorable way, and as in many things, just because it was put in or taken out doesn't mean that it can't be undone when it shows less 'good things' than expected.

Is it going to break my will if it stays around?  No.  Am I throwing a fit over it?  No.  I just posted about my experiences with the change and why I don't find them 'worth it' in terms of gameplay versus gameworld.

I didn't specifically address every one of your points, and you haven't addressed every one of others' (or mine), or they've been glossed over and dismissed?  Do we really need to exhaustively argue about every little thing and every little point to have a discussion about something?  Nauta didn't either, when responding to my post as well?

Certainly, code has been rolled back in the past - you and Nauta don't like this code, I happen to.  There's people on both sides of the fence it seems.  I put in my two bits, but I'm not staff - ultimately they make the call.  I'm just voicing my opinion, like you have yours.

[Armaddict]

I didn't specifically address every one of your points, and you haven't addressed every one of others' (or mine), or they've been glossed over and dismissed?

No, and you didn't really provoke a need to respond until you said:

But there were people complaining about having to hunt at inopportune times?

Having it expressed in this way made it feel appropriate to clarify that no, it's not about stockpiling meat.  It's about an altogether non-contributory status in comparison for what it takes away from the game, which has not been glossed over throughout the thread.  I was clear to say that that's in my opinion, but the other side that you're talking about hasn't really discussed what it's -added- so much as said 'Hey, I like it.'  Unless, as you say, some sort of valid boon to it being this way has been stated somewhere else and glossed over.  But as I said, the general purposes outlined in why the change was put in (or at least the discussion thread of the change, where staff answered questions) have not thusfar been satisfied

This isn't and hasn't been to demean the other side of this fence you speak of.  I'm talking purely in terms of addition/subtraction to the roleplay vs gameplay experience.  Objectively, that is the point of discussing changes made to the game, isn't it?

Do we really need to exhaustively argue about every little thing and every little point to have a discussion about something?

No, we don't have to at all.  I'll just keep presenting that idea that it's not really giving us much in trade.  The only reason why I returned to posting here was because I saw you answered someone with the response of 'Someone was complaining about hunting', which is a twisting of what my entire point actually was.  So I restated it.  I'm betting you'll likely come back and restate your side as well.  Isn't that how this works?

[nauta]

But there were people complaining about having to hunt at inopportune times?

No, you're talking about me listing off the pros and cons of what this addition has thusfar added, particularly in respect to the discussion beforehand of why it would be nice.  Most of the pros from that list are not realized at this point (i.e. They're not happening on any noticeable scale), and it has actually resulted in -less- interaction between people on the food front at least in my experience.

That is not a complaint.  That is part of a synopsis of why I think it is not a suitable addition to keep around (I notice that you ignored the rest of that list of observations and reduced it to me just wanting to stockpile food).  It's not a terrible idea.  It's not unrealistic.  I just don't think the pro and con level up necessarily in a favorable way, and as in many things, just because it was put in or taken out doesn't mean that it can't be undone when it shows less 'good things' than expected.

Is it going to break my will if it stays around?  No.  Am I throwing a fit over it?  No.  I just posted about my experiences with the change and why I don't find them 'worth it' in terms of gameplay versus gameworld.

I didn't specifically address every one of your points, and you haven't addressed every one of others' (or mine), or they've been glossed over and dismissed?  Do we really need to exhaustively argue about every little thing and every little point to have a discussion about something?  Nauta didn't either, when responding to my post as well?

Certainly, code has been rolled back in the past - you and Nauta don't like this code, I happen to.  There's people on both sides of the fence it seems.  I put in my two bits, but I'm not staff - ultimately they make the call.  I'm just voicing my opinion, like you have yours.

I like spoilage.

[nauta]

Pets absolutely should spoil.  It should be in months (for roaches) to years (for birds and snakes), but they don't get to be immortal.

I agree too.  (a) It encourages the pet trade; and (b) you'd be forced to mourn the death of your precious pet.  (You can pretend both of these right now, admittedly, just as you do with your mounts.)

I'd rather they 'age' rather than 'spoil'-- a partially spoiled, golden-tipped hunting hawk sits on a shoulder.  Actually, that makes sense but with an equivocal use of the term 'spoiled'. 

I wonder if the code has the nuance to allow you to adjust the term used, so foods go from 'lightly spoiled' to 'spoiled' whereas pets go from... 'lightly aged' (?) to 'aged'... huh, that doesn't sound right either.

Also, IntuitiveApathy, I love the inspiration idea.

[Supified]

Personally I like the spoilage code in that it makes crafted cooked items more valuable and more interesting.  If they are timed to consume a treat gift is more meaningful than it was before.

What I hate is the crafting code.  This has just made the crafting code (as it pertains to cooking) that much more frustrating.

Arm was one of the first games to implement crafting and it was at that time amazing, but since then it feels like everyone has made crafting and it's really evolved in the world of mudding, but literally seems to have stood still on arm. 

We need a crafting overhaul IMO and adding stuff like spoilage while itself a good idea (again IMO) it puts additional stress to a system which is now a good two decades old and frankly well beyond showing its age.

[bardlyone]

What I hate is the crafting code.  This has just made the crafting code (as it pertains to cooking) that much more frustrating.

Arm was one of the first games to implement crafting and it was at that time amazing, but since then it feels like everyone has made crafting and it's really evolved in the world of mudding, but literally seems to have stood still on arm. 

We need a crafting overhaul IMO and adding stuff like spoilage while itself a good idea (again IMO) it puts additional stress to a system which is now a good two decades old and frankly well beyond showing its age.

I think the best crafting system I've ever seen was on a mud that it was almost wasted on, as it's based around sexual rp, and so very few people wear the clothes and so the system sees little use. Basically if you want to make a thing, you type 'make' or 'recipe and it brings you into a menu which allows you to pick a narrower and narrower array of stuff with all the recipes accessible for anything you can make. You buy (as an example for tailoring) a bolt of cloth and a bolt of thread. Each item takes up X amount of cloth and X amount of thread. It makes a basic/base item that you have to have about 60% 'tailoring' ability to change for a flourish and customize some with 'masterstyling' and 'embellishing' and 'dyeing'. 

So for instance you'd (to use the below example) 'make apron' (or even 'make 50 apron' if you wanted to make 50 without spamming the command). Then you get 'a <material: silk, cotton, whatever> apron' when it finishes. If you have 'masterstyling' you can pick up to 5 words from a list of preapproved words, which you can arrange any way you like with the base item's name included in there (ie you can change 'a apron' to 'an apron', and add key words to it, like 'a knee-length, black leather apron'. Embellishing would allow you add to or change the 'look description' or mdesc of an item (this one would admittedly be abusable, but would be possible to only hand out to people with a master skill level and send the items to a place the mdescs would have to be preapproved, etc. Anyhow, it allows for almost unlimited customization, and it's amazing, while the master styling list as a way to change and edit things within preapproved parameters on the fly would be amazing.

A picture example of the menu is available full sized below.

[nessalin]

I wonder if the code has the nuance to allow you to adjust the term used, so foods go from 'lightly spoiled' to 'spoiled' whereas pets go from... 'lightly aged' (?) to 'aged'... huh, that doesn't sound right either.

Yes.

Different food types have different aging messages, changeable on the fly.