Ranger Listen

[nauta]

I know this has come up again and again, but this is a different take on it -- plus, the sling discussion got me thinking.

For the most part, skilling up in Arm is pretty natural: you do the activity, and you get the skill (eventually) over time.  Moreover, you can do the activity in a way conducive to RP -- you can improve scan, for instance, by going out with a hunting buddy and watching the movements of the animals, or sneak/hide this way too.  You can actually talk about improving the skill in game without breaking character or immersion.

However, listen is an outlier.

So, recently I was asked by a hunter I was training in the game: How do I improve my ability to listen to creatures?  (I was teaching them how to improve scan through some RP of looking at hidden creatures.)  I drew a blank on what to say.  I certainly didn't want to say: Go sit on the listening nook at the Gaj for a few RL days, which is how you actually skill up listen.

Rangers get listen and presumably this is for a reason, although I haven't really ever figured out if it has any coded advantage while hunting.  According to the help file 'listen has some effect on the detection of stealthy activities that can make noise'.

I dunno, I guess I'd like to figure out a way to allow us to train listen in a ranger-like way -- split it from the listen that indoors guilds (pickpockets, burglars, assassins get) and have it trained via animal noises?  But that's a lot of coded work.  Sometimes, I just wish it were removed entirely, as I at least haven't been able to make sense of my ranger having a skill that is only useful inside the city.

So: how do you RP the listen skill as a Ranger?  Do you just pretend it isn't there, but find it useful when you go inside the city?  Do you have some training scenarios you go through to train it?

[Miradus]

I don't RP the skill. Sometimes I will stop and RP that I'm being still and listening to my surroundings, but I don't RP it in the same way that I RP, for example, skinning.

I hate the listening skill. Even more so because almost all of my rangers have been northern which means I can sit in the bar for hours without even anything to listen to.

I have not found any way at all to raise it in the wild, which in my mind, is where a ranger ought to be developing his skills.

Maybe make a goudra chirp or something that gives a listen check.

[Delirium]

How do you train listening to creatures? Hang around sneaky creatures and try to detect them.

[Harmless]

There really aren't enough sneaky creatures in the wild. The ones that exist are <redacted>

[Miradus]

How do you train listening to creatures? Hang around sneaky creatures and try to detect them.

Are you saying that being in the room with a sneaky creature is a listen check?

That would be a surprise to me. I've seen advanced scan and novice listen many times now. You'd think I would have at least gotten a few accidental fails from passing though rooms infested with sneakies.

[Synthesis]

How do you train listening to creatures? Hang around sneaky creatures and try to detect them.

Are you saying that being in the room with a sneaky creature is a listen check?

That would be a surprise to me. I've seen advanced scan and novice listen many times now. You'd think I would have at least gotten a few accidental fails from passing though rooms infested with sneakies.

Being in a room where someone or something is using sneak, while moving.  Not just being in the room.  There aren't a whole lot of mobs that are a) aggro and b) use sneak, but they're out there.

[Miradus]

I know a ton of the sneakers in the north. Not so much in the south.

I didn't know that being in the room with them would raise my listen. I guess you're saying that they have to move in or out?

[Riev]

You train listen by there being something you couldn't normally hear (footsteps, whispers, talking, etc) while listen is on.

Most animals don't do these things.

Maybe +1 to random zone echoes that attach to an hemote?

[Molten Heart]

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[nauta]

When playing a ranger who doesn't spend much time in population centers, it's hard to have the listen skill keep up with the scan skill in terms of progression. I often have to do silly thing to get skill gains because I figure it's time. I'll have scan at master and listen at novice. Either I'm doing it wrong by not getting enough exposure to sneaking things or there could be more effective ways for a ranger in the wilds to progress their listen skill.

This has been my experience too.

[Delirium]

From the help file from help listen:

"Notes:
Listen has some effect on the detection of stealthy activities that can make noise."

Extrapolate.

I agree that there should be more sneaky critters.

[zztri]

I am a player who played in this MUD for just a few days, so there may be something I don't know but I don't see the problem. Your "listen" skill is not improving? Good.. There's nothing sneaky going on around you. You don't need the skill. It'll improve when you need it; when there are sneaky creatures around you.

Even though I play when there are about 4-5 people in the world according to the "who" command, my listen skill is improving. There are elves and rats in the least. And when it stops improving, I won't worry, knowing I don't need it higher.

[Riev]

I am a player who played in this MUD for just a few days, so there may be something I don't know but I don't see the problem. Your "listen" skill is not improving? Good.. There's nothing sneaky going on around you. You don't need the skill. It'll improve when you need it; when there are sneaky creatures around you.

Even though I play when there are about 4-5 people in the world according to the "who" command, my listen skill is improving. There are elves and rats in the least. And when it stops improving, I won't worry, knowing I don't need it higher.

The issue people are describing is that they don't WANT to be around elves, and rats, and alleyways, to get listen to go up. They want to play the Wasteland wanderer who isn't but hardly INSIDE the city walls.

[Synthesis]

I am a player who played in this MUD for just a few days, so there may be something I don't know but I don't see the problem. Your "listen" skill is not improving? Good.. There's nothing sneaky going on around you. You don't need the skill. It'll improve when you need it; when there are sneaky creatures around you.

Even though I play when there are about 4-5 people in the world according to the "who" command, my listen skill is improving. There are elves and rats in the least. And when it stops improving, I won't worry, knowing I don't need it higher.

That's a cute point of view...but uh...if you only use a skill when you "need to," it's gonna fail disastrously.  That's just a fact of how the game works.  You need skills to do stuff.  You start out with skill levels that do not allow you to do anything but -barely- fend for yourself--if you get lucky.

So, if you only ever use 'listen' in the wilderness, it's only going to fail the 1 or 2 times a d-elf sneaks up on you to peep you out, then wanders off.  Eventually, a d-elf or three is going to sneak up on you and you won't even know, because your listen skill is still at like 10%.  On the other hand, if you train listen by using it to do other things, that you may not even care about, and it's sitting at a nice 80%, the next time someone sneaks up on you, you -might- detect it (probably not, but that's another discussion about the relative powers of stealth vs. detection skills).

[Armaddict]

You do you, Zztri.

Sounds like you found the way you enjoy the game, and yes, there are events in the world that make it so you only need to use it when you see fit.  What synthesis means is that in the skill-oriented side of the game, you'll lag behind people who have the focus of making things improve as much as possible rather than as needed.  As long as you acknowledge that and continue to enjoy the game, you're good!

[Molten Heart]

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[zztri]

I am a player who played in this MUD for just a few days, so there may be something I don't know but I don't see the problem. Your "listen" skill is not improving? Good.. There's nothing sneaky going on around you. You don't need the skill. It'll improve when you need it; when there are sneaky creatures around you.

Even though I play when there are about 4-5 people in the world according to the "who" command, my listen skill is improving. There are elves and rats in the least. And when it stops improving, I won't worry, knowing I don't need it higher.

That's a cute point of view...but uh...if you only use a skill when you "need to," it's gonna fail disastrously.  That's just a fact of how the game works.  You need skills to do stuff.  You start out with skill levels that do not allow you to do anything but -barely- fend for yourself--if you get lucky.

So, if you only ever use 'listen' in the wilderness, it's only going to fail the 1 or 2 times a d-elf sneaks up on you to peep you out, then wanders off.  Eventually, a d-elf or three is going to sneak up on you and you won't even know, because your listen skill is still at like 10%.  On the other hand, if you train listen by using it to do other things, that you may not even care about, and it's sitting at a nice 80%, the next time someone sneaks up on you, you -might- detect it (probably not, but that's another discussion about the relative powers of stealth vs. detection skills).

... Isn't that how it should be? If you're a hunter who ever, never had anything ever sneak up on her, she'd fail to recognize the threat and die. If she knows he will be facing desert elves, let her find someone who can sneak, let her pester her superior to find such a person and let her train with someone sneaking upon her. *shrug*

[Synthesis]

I am a player who played in this MUD for just a few days, so there may be something I don't know but I don't see the problem. Your "listen" skill is not improving? Good.. There's nothing sneaky going on around you. You don't need the skill. It'll improve when you need it; when there are sneaky creatures around you.

Even though I play when there are about 4-5 people in the world according to the "who" command, my listen skill is improving. There are elves and rats in the least. And when it stops improving, I won't worry, knowing I don't need it higher.

That's a cute point of view...but uh...if you only use a skill when you "need to," it's gonna fail disastrously.  That's just a fact of how the game works.  You need skills to do stuff.  You start out with skill levels that do not allow you to do anything but -barely- fend for yourself--if you get lucky.

So, if you only ever use 'listen' in the wilderness, it's only going to fail the 1 or 2 times a d-elf sneaks up on you to peep you out, then wanders off.  Eventually, a d-elf or three is going to sneak up on you and you won't even know, because your listen skill is still at like 10%.  On the other hand, if you train listen by using it to do other things, that you may not even care about, and it's sitting at a nice 80%, the next time someone sneaks up on you, you -might- detect it (probably not, but that's another discussion about the relative powers of stealth vs. detection skills).

... Isn't that how it should be? If you're a hunter who ever, never had anything ever sneak up on her, she'd fail to recognize the threat and die. If she knows he will be facing desert elves, let her find someone who can sneak, let her pester her superior to find such a person and let her train with someone sneaking upon her. *shrug*

If my PC has been a hunter all her life, before I started playing her, wouldn't she -already- be good at that?

We roll PCs that are 20-35 years old at chargen with skills so low that starving children in the 'rinth can punch you to death if you aren't careful.

[nauta]

From the help file from help listen:

"Notes:
Listen has some effect on the detection of stealthy activities that can make noise."

Extrapolate.

I agree that there should be more sneaky critters.

Ah, this actually answers it for me.  I had noticed the line in the help file, but I thought that that sneaking animals weren't making noise -- that is, that it was something the scan was useful for not listen.  So makes sense for me, and even better it's something we can incorporate into our RP without breaking immersion.

I still think for realism reasons that there should be city listen and wilderness listen, since eavesdropping/lip reading is quite a different skill from detecting the twig-breaking movements of animals.

But I'm not about to suggest this change, since (a) I love rangers and (b) I hate not having the ability to eavesdrop on others at the bar!

[zztri]

I am a player who played in this MUD for just a few days, so there may be something I don't know but I don't see the problem. Your "listen" skill is not improving? Good.. There's nothing sneaky going on around you. You don't need the skill. It'll improve when you need it; when there are sneaky creatures around you.

Even though I play when there are about 4-5 people in the world according to the "who" command, my listen skill is improving. There are elves and rats in the least. And when it stops improving, I won't worry, knowing I don't need it higher.

That's a cute point of view...but uh...if you only use a skill when you "need to," it's gonna fail disastrously.  That's just a fact of how the game works.  You need skills to do stuff.  You start out with skill levels that do not allow you to do anything but -barely- fend for yourself--if you get lucky.

So, if you only ever use 'listen' in the wilderness, it's only going to fail the 1 or 2 times a d-elf sneaks up on you to peep you out, then wanders off.  Eventually, a d-elf or three is going to sneak up on you and you won't even know, because your listen skill is still at like 10%.  On the other hand, if you train listen by using it to do other things, that you may not even care about, and it's sitting at a nice 80%, the next time someone sneaks up on you, you -might- detect it (probably not, but that's another discussion about the relative powers of stealth vs. detection skills).

... Isn't that how it should be? If you're a hunter who ever, never had anything ever sneak up on her, she'd fail to recognize the threat and die. If she knows he will be facing desert elves, let her find someone who can sneak, let her pester her superior to find such a person and let her train with someone sneaking upon her. *shrug*

If my PC has been a hunter all her life, before I started playing her, wouldn't she -already- be good at that?

We roll PCs that are 20-35 years old at chargen with skills so low that starving children in the 'rinth can punch you to death if you aren't careful.

"All right, I'm making a sixty-year-old mage. I win."

Based on my very, very limited experience, skills improve incredibly fast anyway, faster than a few popular MUDs.. I literally made my first character last wednesday. My character came from "please let me not starve" to "should I rent a luxury apartment now" point. And I swear I'm not trying to up my skills at all.. I'm just doing whatever a [class deleted] would do in that condition.

I don't see the point in your comment. You want all 'rinth children (about whose proficiency I don't have an idea) weaker for logical reasons? Use the bug command. Then the staff would possibly have to add them in groups and nothing will change. Or they'd simply respond "67 children were there. The strongest survived. He knows to defend himself.". I'd say guardians would accompany the kids but seems 'rinth is a place where it's a inhuman nightmare - I can't wait to roll my second character there.

You want perfect "listen" skill? Good. I want perfect "fireball" skill. We both won't have it. In MUDs skills begin at the very bottom and you mature as you play, whether you've started as a 7 year old or 70...

[Synthesis]

You're not getting it, but I'm not going to argue it.

Try avoiding hyperbole, next time.

My point is this:  if you play how you suggest you are playing, it is unlikely that your average PC will ever get to the point where they reasonably should have started at from chargen.  It is unlikely that you will ever branch "core" guild skills that rely on mastery of some marginally useful skill.

But, fine...if you want to play like that, it's your business.

[solera]

I play like zztri, or try to. Now I have learnt belatedly, how sneak branches ( I didn't know for any of my rangers) , if I want a sneaky hermit, I will be choosing a subguild to match.
Incidentally, for my last city character, I maxed listen without trying, through hearing conversations next door, or at the next table.

[Lizzie]

zztri, don't pay Synthesis any mind. He's a code-junkie min-maxer, who wants us to believe that he sincerely feels that the code dictates the roleplay. I don't know if he actually believes this, but that's how he comes across, regularly - so I have to assume his presentation is intentional.

I admire your perception of the game and the code supporting it. It looks like I'm not the only one, and we're not talking about "oh innocence, le sigh" here. You're someone who roleplays his character's role, and uses the code to support that roleplay rather than putting together the character via the code, and then using roleplay to support the coded selections. Your way is how Armageddon should be played, in my opinion, whether the code allows us to play it that way or not. So here's to you, and have a Bud Light

[zztri]

Yeah, the underlying issue (for me at least) is there are skills listen branches to that make a ranger a better hunter. The skills that branch from listen are complementary to some othe the other hunting skills a ranger branches and it creates a bottleneck when some of the skills aren't available. It's like a chef having the skill for applying salt to a dish yet lacking the skill for applying the pepper. It's a simple analogy illustrating the skills work together.

That, I knew nothing about... sorry..

I still won't worry a lot.. It's slowly improving on its own and that's enough for me but only because the world's new to me. Even a rat corpse on a street is something fun to play along yet, I look at, assess, sniff at and even lick everything. Maybe in my tenth character I'll start worrying about that skill.

But I had warned you, I'm a complete newbie in this MUD. Sorry, that new information changes stuff. I'm just learning the branching mechanism. Then there could be a way for ruggedly handsome hunters of Zalanthas to improve the 'listen' skill codedly, like lizards with high stamina wanderlust, changing rooms frequently and sneakily.

Now I'll go drink coffee with my husband and tell him excitedly what I did tonight to him, he'll act like he's interested because he's nice like that.

[Armaddict]

I wouldn't ignore Synthesis entirely.  He's essentially giving you a leg up on understanding mechanics of the game, because mechanics save you or kill you in the game a lot more easily (and commonly) than any grand plot or storyline.  That's often a complaint, but I find it kind of fitting for the world; bad hunters die, regardless of how interesting they are.

I was just letting you know that you don't have to slip into complete skill focus if you don't want to, as long as you understand what he's telling you, which is that skills will at most levels determine your survival.  This only changes once you get deeper into politics and manipulation, which some new players get the hang of a lot better than others.

[Dunetrade55]

First, Zztri, I admire your approach to the game. I wish you luck, but sooner or later you will die, and die again, and you'll wish you had those skills back. You'll walk out of Morin's for a wonderful stroll, only to be blindsided a step or two down the road by a hidden, horned, clawed nightmare beast, and it will drag you back to its lair to feast on your bones. You may be swarmed by giant insects, or experience the rutting carru phenomena. You may get scrabbed. You may have invested several days played in this character, and think you're doing good, but at times, it will happen. And you will pine for the possibilities that exist just beyond your grasp, like Tantalus reaching for a grape... and then...

... the code-monster bites. It's venom sinks into your very soul. Suddenly, apprentice weapon skills will not do, oh hey, journeyman's nice, DOH! I must have MOOOORE POWER. You will have a strong lust for the parry skill, and despise the slog through the pits of tartarus for the brew skill. You will be, almost there... when disaster strikes. and someday, someday, you will realize that Merchants have all the fun with less of the heart-rending sacrifice.

Just, don't roll up a badass merchant, spar continually while working your merchant magic, and try to take on the known world. A few have done it. I have tried, a few times, but uh, I didn't get quite as far as I would have liked. Still, combat merchants are FUN, when they work, as part of a group.

Neadless to say this is an RPI so faster skillups balance out the cost of death from doing the risky things that make this game a pulse-pounding nightmare that will haunt your dreams with reel lock text and your HPs of your favorite character simply depleting for no discernable reason, no echoes, no idea how to stop it.

[Raptor_Dan]

zztri, don't pay Synthesis any mind. He's a code-junkie min-maxer, who wants us to believe that he sincerely feels that the code dictates the roleplay. I don't know if he actually believes this, but that's how he comes across, regularly - so I have to assume his presentation is intentional.

I admire your perception of the game and the code supporting it. It looks like I'm not the only one, and we're not talking about "oh innocence, le sigh" here. You're someone who roleplays his character's role, and uses the code to support that roleplay rather than putting together the character via the code, and then using roleplay to support the coded selections. Your way is how Armageddon should be played, in my opinion, whether the code allows us to play it that way or not. So here's to you, and have a Bud Light

+1 to this. Over a decade played, zztri, and though I like having nice skills, I'm more focused on the roleplay, and I do not regret the way I play. I play as much as I can as if I am in the char's mindset, and just like normal, real life humans, (we have some players that are of this subgroup), just like real people, my chars don't know they're not masters at a particular skill.

Please, please continue to play as you are, with newfound wonder, and a zeal for RP. If we can tip the balance between solo master-tanks that don't need anyone else for survival, and people who are deficient and imperfect that rely on other players, then conflict, mini-RPT's, and more RP will abound.

[solera]

That is an interesting perspective, Dunetrader, that it is possible to boss kryl or headbutt carru. It makes me realize that I play as a victim, and there are people out there that play like alphas.

[Dunetrade55]

That is an interesting perspective, Dunetrader, that it is possible to boss kryl or headbutt carru. It makes me realize that I play as a victim, and there are people out there that play like alphas.

If you think I play alphas.... Ohohohoho... no. I tend to play victims of "circumstance" (completely comprised of their own mistakes, no circumstance there)

I was trying to wax poetic about what kind of process infects the souls of the unwary with the dreaded "twink disease". I just like playing. Do I twink? Well, yes, mostly for utility skills, sometimes for combat if it suits my character's purposes, stealth skills? Essential for stealthy survival, it's the only reason to pick such a class, I want to be harry potter with an invisibility cloak, ok, that's humor but they can be very difficult to raise without getting called out. But like, usually I neglect it, and to my detriment, and somehow, that ONE or THREE skills I thought I'd never use, that I didn't bother with, my minds like, yeah, but if you would've been a twink-monster, you would've done this the whole time, and I'm like, shush you, help me think of a new character concept and help me get over my grief at Yet Another Locked Door Kill.

Personally, I don't usually bother with any of those things, I just know what happens and I have been the badass that saves the day sometimes. Saying Merchants have all the fun isn't an insult, I actually enjoy merchants, when people aren't trying to kill me, which they always are, or are just shy of. I like mastercrafts, I like more tame RP, I like heartfelt moments, pauses, at a location that reminds me of something, and I like to tell stories. I love merchant PCs. Most of my PCs are pathetic weaklings at the hands of fate, trying to run from, as I said, things they did to themselves. Other merchant PCs, I guess, are more, what's the word, savvy than I, to particular scenes.

I once rode out and tried to raid people with a day 1 merchant, you can guess how interesting that was. Honestly, Merchant is my favorite guild... I like typing skills combat, and getting back, you suck, and being like, ok, I'm fine with that, let's go bother someone for no good reason. I'm not downing anyone, my previous post was partially facetious due to Synthesis's obsession with MASTER and thinking everyone wants this. I don't think so. If I didn't want a real challenge to overcome, I'd just enjoy casual gaming. I just want to be semi-decent in a well-rounded manner without epic hosery to get there.

Am I alone? Anyone? I know sacrifices are made at race/guild/subguild choice... the grind gets to me though, it's like, ugh, again. I mean, how many times have we been over this over the past god knows how many years? The branching grind is the worst of it, to be anything beyond a meatpawn in a combat role requires a huge investment..

For a merchant with a non-combat subguild? OMFG? I've gotten TWO to T'zai Byn Trooper rank. Only one was actually able to fight, the other had a poor strength score so may as well have been two-handing a feather duster. But by Drov, he did it, with tenacity and cleveness, and that's what the merchant role is about, is thinking with your head and not your bonesword. It's really a great role, I'd reccomend it to anyone.

[Synthesis]

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[zztri]

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[solera]

Twinks and flowery Mushers and boring longlivers in between. We all enrich our game and I wouldn't want to be without any one of you. I've lived some great stories thanks to you.

We all dislike the present listen branching?

[manipura]

It always seems strange to me that a ranger usually has to a) tavern sit to effectively improve listen, or b) find someone to sneak around them so they can 'train'.  If I'm a typical ranger and my thing is hunting critters...it's awkward for me to decide to try listening/spotting/taking notice of a person sneaking around me.  And with the whole tavern sitting thing, it's just awkward if you're trying to play the self-sufficient wasteland-type ranger who spends as little time as possible in civilized areas.  I think the self-sufficient wasteland type is also far less likely to have some sort of boss who they're going to approach and request a 'sneak partner' from.

I think one of the important points of the thread, besides a bit of questioning just how things worked, was just to point out that there's a bit of an imbalance in how easy it is to improve listen as a city-based character versus a wilderness-based character. 

Realistically, there would be tons of noise going on in the wilderness and your character would be hearing plenty of things.  But it appears that unless your character is in a room where something is sneaking (or critters start whispering to each other) you're just not improving nearly as effectively as anyone in the city, because city-folk can go to a bar and plunk themselves down and not do anything other than let people around them talk.

To me, ranger listen is one of those wonky sort of skills where there aren't a lot of rangery uses for it, but what it branches is absolutely useful to the typical ranger character concept.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just load more sneaking rats into the city and give Jozhals a wandering sneak script.

At least, that's what I would do.

[manipura]

That's one solution.  I wouldn't limit it to just the area in and immediately around Allanak though.  Because of those rangers who actually, you know...ranger 

I always wished there were actual listen echos in the wilderness, not just the opportunity to 'hear' a sneaking animal. 

Code Select Expand

From the south you hear a rustling in the scrub.

Nearby you hear the snapping of dry twigs, then silence.

Something like that.  It doesn't even have to be for an actual animal in the room, it could be representing all the virtual wildlife that presumably is present in the environment.

[Lizzie]

I play a lot of rangers. My experiences with them: Listen/scan come organically, though they take awhile if you go the organic route. I *supplement* the organic route with visits to the bar, which makes sense for any wandering ranger to do now and then. I don't go to the bar to work on listen/scan. I go to the bar because my character's been out of the city for a couple of days, has stuff to trade, so comes into the city, does her trade, then heads to the bar to relax and have a grog and enjoy the company of other sentient beings for a few hours. Even in that,  I try to do it organically.

I think I've done more "non-organic twinkery" type stuff with scan than I have with listen; listen seems to always do what it needs to do in a reasonable amount of time, without forcing it. Scan's slower, but once it gets momentum it's pretty reasonable. So I might twink it a little more at the very beginning, to give it that momentum. And then I back off and just let the roleplay direct how the skills will improve.

[Dunetrade55]

I sit on the listening ledge and eavesdrop on Synthesis pining for the good old days.

[manipura]

I sit on the listening ledge and eavesdrop on Synthesis pining for the good old days.

Listening ledge...stop...

[Riev]

I know there is a creature that is, or used to be, in the grasslands that basically is impossible to see even with max ranger scan, and half the time you'd only know its there because it assists other animals in a fight.

Maybe more things like sandrats, or sneaking raptors, or something. I'm still a fan of zone-echoes like those in the Red being listen-checks.

[Dunetrade55]

I sit on the listening ledge and eavesdrop on Synthesis pining for the good old days.

Listening ledge...stop...

"Why does that guy over there buy ale so slowly?"

"Because he's twinking haggle, now shaddup and get me a beer, dumbass."

[lostinspace]

I get to master listen mostly by making sure I'm always listening, I reflexively type "listen on" every 3-4 minutes. It's much harder in the sands, because most the sneaking creatures RUN away from you, they don't sneak away, so you have to wait for a creature to sneak up on you, which can be very dangerous. Player characters and humanoid NPCs are your best bet for leveling the skill.

I wouldn't be against some creatures occasionally making some noise that can be heard from a room away with listen, in fact I'd love it, because I would be able to hear them even if I can't necessarily locate them.

[nauta]

I get to master listen mostly by making sure I'm always listening, I reflexively type "listen on" every 3-4 minutes.

Did you know you can do 'listen status' (and 'scan status')?  There's still a post delay, but it's not quite as crushing as the post delay in scan and listen.

Although, usually I just learn my max levels in stun on a character, and figure it out from there, e.g., if usually I have max 100 stun, when listen is on it is at 95 or whatever.

Funny story: guard also lowers your max stun, which I never realized.  I hardly ever use guard and was this time, just for RP reasons.  But I forgot, and I see my max stun is lower than it should be, and I (the player) start panicking about how to interpret this as a character -- would this be evidence of a mind worm?  is it just a headache?  do I feel like the guy from Flowers for Algernon now?

[bardlyone]

I get to master listen mostly by making sure I'm always listening, I reflexively type "listen on" every 3-4 minutes.

Did you know you can do 'listen status' (and 'scan status')?  There's still a post delay, but it's not quite as crushing as the post delay in scan and listen.

That just makes me wish listen/scan/watch status could be a part of your prompt somehow, so you would know to restart it, since you don't exactly get an echo but if you watch your prompt a lot, it will tell you the moment it dies.

[lostinspace]

I get to master listen mostly by making sure I'm always listening, I reflexively type "listen on" every 3-4 minutes.

Did you know you can do 'listen status' (and 'scan status')?  There's still a post delay, but it's not quite as crushing as the post delay in scan and listen.

I did know that, I just prefer 'listen on' because if you are listening nothing happens, and if you aren't you start listening. Everything I want in one simple input. I often alias listen to 'listen on' for this exact reason. Having it in the prompt would be nice as well. I think it might show up in stat, but I don't remember for sure, and am at work. If it is available inside of stat, then you're only 1 client trigger away from having it in your prompt

[Lizzie]

Yup I use "listen on" for the exact same reason as lostinspace. If it's already on, it doesn't do anything at all. If it's not on, it turns it on.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I kinda always thought that Listen/scan should be swapped with what the branch on a ranger.  It sort of made more sense to me.  Listen at least.

For a hunter, it would be a lot more beneficial to learn the other way around.