Out of Character and you... the grey of grey areas.

[BadSkeelz]

Kill the noble

[Taven]

Kill the noble

You're already dead. They already killed your PC. The 'rinthi that you spent months working on is already gone. That story and all the potential it had is already closed, specifically because of OOC.

Are you going to make a revenge character? That's also not cool.

Are you going to compound the issue, and use your OOC buddies to set up his death OOC? That's even worse, and starts a cycle that is not something that can be escaped from.

If you get killed for OOC abuse related reasons, it's an absolutely horrific situation to be in. I don't think the answer is ever that they just need to man up and deal with it. You have to consider the larger picture, especially that what happened just isn't okay.

[BadSkeelz]

Revenge-killing a PC who acts on OOC information is not a net-loss. It'll at least set them back to zero on terms of influence and power in the game. If Staff aren't going to regulate them, someone has to.

More seriously, the biggest problem with your example is assuming the only way the plot could fail was via cheating. The idea that you could completely scrub your rinthi identity completely is a bit arrogant. There are VNPCs, hidden PCs, plenty of ways someone could conceivably learn the truth. I've seen people freak out over "OOC collusion" (or Staff animosity/powergaming/whatever) when in reality there were perfectly reasonable IC explanations for why their character died. So don't assume "Someone found out" means "Someone found out OOC and is completely ruining my plot!" Which seems to be a very common reaction among people who think their plots are cool and foolproof and deserve to succeed.

People overreact about their character PK deaths as much or more than people  bring them about via cheating.

[Taven]

Revenge-killing a PC who acts on OOC information is not a net-loss. It'll at least set them back to zero on terms of influence and power in the game.

More seriously, the biggest problem with your example is assuming the only way the plot could fail was via cheating. The idea that you could completely scrub your rinthi identity completely is a bit arrogant. There are VNPCs, hidden PCs, plenty of ways someone could conceivably learn the truth. I've seen people freak out over "OOC collusion" (or Staff animosity/powergaming/whatever) when in reality there were perfectly reasonable IC explanations for why their character died. So don't assume "Someone found out" means "Someone found out OOC and is completely ruining my plot!" Which seems to be a very common reaction among people who think their plots are cool and foolproof and deserve to succeed.

People overreact about their character PK deaths as much or more than people  bring them about via cheating.

You're absolutely right. Sometimes there's no cheating at all, and it happens 100% legitly and there's still harsh feelings. And sometimes because of that misconception, it can lead to things like revenge killings and OOC "counteraction" when there was nothing there to start with.

However... Can a plot be ruined by OOC? Yes, absolutely. That's what this thread is about. And I think that it's important that we acknowledge that it can actually be a legitimate issue, rather then just something abstract or seeming made-up.

[Duskdrake]

Again, most of what I know about the community's opinion of this comes from this thread, but it seems like -everyone- has agreed that sharing OOC secrets can cause problems and should be punished.

The question has been the extent of and effective ways to prevent that.

[Reiloth]

BadSkeelz! You were the chosen one!

I think maybe we can outline constructively in a FAQ what are good examples of OOC collusion, and what are examples of old fashioned sharing stories and having fun being a community. I'll do so tomorrow morning.

[lostinspace]

Perhaps staff should encourage players to file player complaints if anyone tells them in game information? It takes 2 or more to share info, and from what I've heard already there are many of us who have learned things from others that we absolutely didn't want to know through OOC means. I know it won't do anything to help with the cliques, but it will help a lot with the scenarios where someone just wants to share a story but it adversely effects others play. Let staff figure out what to do from there, maybe just keep a closer eye on the player, or give them a warning that they've been sharing info that is too relevant.

And perhaps as fewer incidents of accidental information sharing occur, those cliques that are doing it will become more obvious by comparison, and something can be done about them as well.

[Erythil]

Stopping OOC collusion is impossible.  Efforts to do so will only create a witch-hunt atmosphere that is not fun for either players or staff.  There will always be a few people that form half-giant/elementalist/mul power ranger teams and who play the game to win.  It's not like you can put a keylogger on their AIM chats to prove they're doing it, either.

The only viable option, really, is trusting people to keep their IC knowledge and OOC knowledge separate.  I think an atmosphere of trust inspires more mature behavior then an atmosphere of draconian enforcement.

My tastes here are somewhat atypical, as I prefer a MUSH-style atmosphere where most players are free to share informaton with each other about ongoing plots and peek into the 'big picture,' and I realize this is not that kind of game.

[Suhuy]

I prefer a MUSH-style atmosphere where most players are free to share informaton with each other about ongoing plots and peek into the 'big picture,' and I realize this is not that kind of game.

Well, it is and it isn't.

If you encounter a PC you knew from a previous character of yours, you likely know certain info about them and must force yourself to play appropriately and to not act on that info. If you're a member of staff and you log in with your PC, you most definitely know tons of info about many PCs and must force yourself to play appropriately and to not act on that info either.

There will always be IC info we have that our characters shouldn't know. To me the point of this discussion is how to limit that IC info while still being reasonable (and not heavy-handed) about it.

[manipura]

Stopping OOC collusion is impossible.  Efforts to do so will only create a witch-hunt atmosphere that is not fun for either players or staff.  There will always be a few people that form half-giant/elementalist/mul power ranger teams and who play the game to win.  It's not like you can put a keylogger on their AIM chats to prove they're doing it, either.

The only viable option, really, is trusting people to keep their IC knowledge and OOC knowledge separate.  I think an atmosphere of trust inspires more mature behavior then an atmosphere of draconian enforcement.

My tastes here are somewhat atypical, as I prefer a MUSH-style atmosphere where most players are free to share informaton with each other about ongoing plots and peek into the 'big picture,' and I realize this is not that kind of game.

To paraphrase what someone else said earlier in the thread, in lots of cases it isn't the OOC sharing that is problematic, it's what the players -do- with that information that is problematic.

In the example of the 'rinthi aide, the player of the disgruntled acquaintance, and the noble...sure it's frustrating when the truth is spilled OOC about something your character has been spending a good bit of time and effort plotting...but if the player of the noble learns the origin of their aide...guess what, they don't have to use that information.  Will they?  Maybe.  Who can say, that sort of thing depends on the player in question.  I would hope they wouldn't, but the fact is they might.  The point is...just because a player knows something OOC, it doesn't mean their PC knows it.  OOC sharing doesn't automatically ruin plots, that happens when players decide to abuse that OOC information.  

With every new character we all file away OOC knowledge and (hopefully) don't make it available to our new characters simply because we know it.  
We, the player, know things about the world and about other characters that our new PC doesn't know.  Maybe our new character has a background which makes sense for them to know some things, maybe they've made the right connections in game to actually have gained this knowledge, maybe they've simply lived long enough to have amassed a lot of information about the world.  But if they haven't, then it's up to us to not let them 'know things.'

There is OOC sharing, and there is OOC abuse.  One is not in the spirit of the game and has the potential to ruin plots, the other...not so much.  But it comes down to players policing themselves and deciding whether to use information or not.  Short of using a keylogger to prove there is sharing which might lead to abuse...what can staff do?

One suggestion was that players who learned things OOC could alert staff that there had been sharing... Does staff want however many requests to deal with that are essentially a bunch of grown-ups tattling on one and other?  Is it that hard for people to just not use the OOC information that they know and their PC doesn't?

[lostinspace]

 Is it that hard for people to just not use the OOC information that they know and their PC doesn't?

If it's not a problem, them I'm confused why this thread even exists. Apparently it's already ruined plots and driven players from the game.

[Armaddict]

Is it that hard for people to just not use the OOC information that they know and their PC doesn't?

If it's not a problem, them I'm confused why this thread even exists. Apparently it's already ruined plots and driven players from the game.

I think this was really more in the spirit of 'C'mon man, really?', not saying that no one ever did it, considering the line before was talking about we're adults on a video game.  So we should act adultish.

[evilcabbage]

lizzie if you base karma on gdb contributions, i'm circling the drain at this point. i contribute nothing to the gdb at all as the cabbage.


i can say that staff hit me very hard in the past, and i grew from it.

but i never liked communicating with people to 'win' the game to begin with. i just liked playing with friends.

now i have lots of friends, and i don't know who they are. so, the heavy-handed approach worked for me. would a gentler approach have worked too? maybe. but i don't think people will get it as well unless you come down especially hard in most situations. blatant abuse, like the things i did, have to be hammered and shut down immediately or it just becomes a growing stigma.

i was never around for the heavier policies, or the super find out ic era. i don't know what that was like.

but i like the game now, and i like the staff that we have now.


beware.

things could always be worse.

[James de Monet]

I have some feelings about this topic, but it seems that maybe a personal anecdote may be more useful to this discussion.  Hopefully it won't make anyone think less of me.

About a decade ago, some time after I had started playing Arm, I decided to try another MUD also.  I won't name it here, but it had permadeath also (after a fashion), but wasn't an RPI.  I made a character, learned my way around, and spent several hours doing some serious grinding to get a decent kit.  And then...I fell into a pond.  In full armor.  And drowned.  I had no idea how the swim code worked.  No idea how to get out, just...dead.  I was less than pleased with this turn of events.  But I happened to know there was a newbie 'get out of trouble free' command that was still available to me, so I used one of my (limited) resurrections, ran back to the scene of my death, grabbed my hard earned loot, and entered the command.  It didn't work.  I drowned again.  And again.  And again.  Nothing worked!  This command that should have gotten me all my cool stuff back simply didn't work in this scenario.  Why it wasn't working was not explained, so I just kept trying and failing, trying and failing, until I was out of resurrections.

Now, by this point, I was beside myself with frustration.  So, despite that game's similar prohibition regarding cross-character IC info, I rolled up another PC, and went back to get my stuff.  It's not something I would ever have done in Arm, even then, but this game wasn't an RPI, so I didn't see what the big deal was.  I think I drowned a few more times, and then a staff member contacted me.

Despite the fact that they had essentially incontrovertible evidence that I was cheating (from my login info), as I recall, they simply asked me, "Hey, we wanted to ask you if you have any knowledge regarding [Dead Character 1]."  No accusations, no presentation of that evidence, just a question.

I (not sure if this is to my credit or not) said, "Yup, sure do.  That was my last PC.  He died because XYZ command didn't work and I can't get my stuff back."  To which they replied, essentially, "We're sorry the command didn't work out for you, but carrying knowledge from one character to another is against the rules.  Your account will be suspended for one month."  Now, I definitely appreciated their even-handed approach, but as a new player, who felt he had just been "cheated" by the game code, after losing access for a month, do you think I ever went back?  Nope.


Now, this story is just an anecdote.  It doesn't define any kind of archetypal cause and effect, but from my experience, their non-confrontational approach engendered an honest response from me.  But their lack of leniency or consideration for a rookie after the fact lost them a player forever.

I don't bear them a grudge, but the window of my interest closed, and that was it.  I guess it might also be of interest to note that my reasons for doing what I did, despite knowing it was against the rules, were 1) I didn't understand the rule (why did a hack and slash ban OOC info profiteering - I get it now, but I didn't then), 2) I was new, and wasn't emotionally invested in their community or compact, and 3) I had no basis for knowing whether the rules were serious and enforced, or lip service, until they were enforced on me.

I guess all of this goes to say, I definitely think a bit of innocent until proven guilty goes a long way, second, I think if we expect perfect obedience out of new players before we give them a chance to see what fun they can have by agreeing to our compact, we are going to be disappointed, and finally, I think a simple mention that the rules are enforced and that the player's lack of adherence was noted can be a lot more powerful (and productive) to some players than us jaded old vets might now think.  FWIW

[Lizzie]

Perhaps staff should encourage players to file player complaints if anyone tells them in game information? It takes 2 or more to share info, and from what I've heard already there are many of us who have learned things from others that we absolutely didn't want to know through OOC means. I know it won't do anything to help with the cliques, but it will help a lot with the scenarios where someone just wants to share a story but it adversely effects others play. Let staff figure out what to do from there, maybe just keep a closer eye on the player, or give them a warning that they've been sharing info that is too relevant.

And perhaps as fewer incidents of accidental information sharing occur, those cliques that are doing it will become more obvious by comparison, and something can be done about them as well.

I don't think we need to set up a Big Brother spy network of players who spend their time baiting and trapping cheaters. If you're the type of person people like telling things to, and you're not interested in hearing it, DELETE THEM from your buddy list, or block them, or whatever it is you do on social media to prevent them from telling you things in the first place. If they are sending you private messages here on the GDB, THEN you send a complaint to the staff, because they are violating a rule that can actually be enforced by the game staff.

[Hauwke]

I just spent like a half an hour reading (some skimming) of the entire thread. And first of all I want to say I am impressed in everyones ability to stay on topic.

Secondly, I would like to pretty much agree with pretty much everything that has been said. Both sides of the fence actually, I too enjoy talking vague IC things. Eg Hey dude my warrior is so badass he killed three chalton at once this one time!
Upon which I have to explain to the guy I say this to that the beast mentioned is generally harmless.

But at that exact same time, I do feel like there are people who consistently OOC with people about things IG, not because of IC but because of the fact things happen that probably shoudlnt have. I feel like lately I have little time to play arm (have played like 1 hour in the lasy few days as opposed to my usual 4 or more hours) but thats because of all the things.

[Riev]

I genuinely feel like we're still struggling with the "chatter intended to gain" and "chatter intended to fill a social role".

There are some examples on how ANY CHATTER AT ALL can ruin a plot, and that makes people feel bad and they leave.

Simply put... we need to take the game seriously, and take OURSELVES a bit fucking less seriously. I've been playing this game a long time, and I'm no LoD or anything, but I find it easy to say "Oh, so he was a 'rinther? I guess that's cool for him but he's never mentioned he was". And if my noble starts LOOKING for reasons for you to be a 'rinthi, well... too fucking bad. I've seen staff store a psi because "one time they wayed an NPC House Slave on accident and they told the Templarate".

The problem with "chatter ruins plots" is that you EITHER put a kibosh on all chatter at all, or you allow for the fact that maybe someone accidentally ruined part of your plot line.

Chatter for social sake NEEDS to be a outlet, and waiting a year clearly doesn't work (and is a vestige of a community-based agreement from YEARS ago in the first place). Original Submissions are still down, players can't tell their stories right now no matter how old they are. If there was a way to release the social need to talk about something cool I did on Gavin (protip: Nothing I do is cool), then I wouldn't feel the need to talk to people OOC about that one time he brought that one pastry recipe back in game.


The question is still: What is to be done about people who chatter for OOC winning, and how can it be limited or prevented?


Is there a way to create a metric to decide how "abusive" an act is? If someone Messages their friend and says "this scrab left me for dead in <x> location" and that friend decides "Hey maybe I'll get in some early hunting today", how does that rate? Compared to "This person has never once set foot in the Labyrinth, and suddenly they know their way around, the street names, and the hiding places" (I did that. Didn't know I shouldn't at the time, still was pretty new and had never BEEN in Allanak for any length of time).

I mean at least then its not "hey you look like you're doing something hinky, and if you admit to it, we'll ONLY ban you for a shorter time than if you lie". Come up with a better structure of rule breaches than "one and done". We're not in gradeschool anymore, but I also don't remember in life where we weren't allowed to make an honest mistake without suffering the full effects of the law.

[Nergal]

While I appreciate that players are pointing out the difference between intent, the fact of the matter is that even "social chatter" can affect the game negatively. It is possible to piece together the details of a plot by getting bits of the story from a variety of players. Characters who do this ICly are often called aides or spies; people who do this OOCly are often called cliques. I'll leave it to players to decide what they would rather be.

Here is a very old story about a plot being ruined by seemingly innocent OOC chatter. Sometime later today/this weekend, I will write a series of posts about plots that have been spoiled or ruined in this manner in my time as a staff member (so, the past couple of years) and post them in this thread. I will leave out player and character names, but all other facts will remain. I will ask that players don't identify themselves or others that are in these stories.

Many times, I've heard players say they'd like to be able to see behind the scenes of Armageddon. That they'd like to be able to find out what the whole story is.

This will be a chance to see one small part of the world, that you probably haven't seen before. I'm going to tell you about a quest, some of the motivations behind it, and the actions that transpired. Why am I going to do this?

Because some people were talking on isca, and spread some OOC info. I could continue the quest even with people knowing what they've heard there, but it just won't be that much fun for anyone involved, myself included. Those players spreading OOC info effectively killed the quest.

I hope that you take the time to read this, and that the next time that you are in a situation where you might feel like telling someone something that happened In Character, that you will think about how you may be ruining someone else's fun.

There was a dwarf, a defiler, named Freil. He used his magick to put people to sleep and rob them, while he slowly grew in power. For over 5 months his attacks in Tuluk and Allanak had people hunting for the sorcerer, although none knew what he looked like. Freil had his own motivations for his actions, most of which was to extend his life, as the old dwarf was nearing the end of his days. I would give you his whole life history, but this post will be too lengthy already.

Finally, Freil got overly greedy, and set upon a group of 4 Jkarr who were outside of the city. One was able to see the invisible dwarf, and Freil fled, angry that after several years of robberies, his description was now going to get out. He tried to talk the Jkarr into saying that he'd killed Freil, in exchange for money and help, but the Jkarr refused. At this point, probably 15 or more players were involved in the quest, either hunting Freil, or having been targets of his.

It is at this point, that the first player who engaged in the OOC talk that ultimitely ruined the quest, became involved. PC1 walked widely through the streets of Tuluk, asking people if they wished to go "hunting defilers", and one of Freil's spies heard him, and reported it to the dwarf. PC1 was ambushed on the road, and his backpack stolen while he slept a magickal sleep. Several more encounters between the two took place, Freil managing to stay a step ahead of PC1. Freil again, tried to bribe PC1 into telling others Freil was dead, but PC1 refused, and boasted of killing other sorcerers, and what he'd do to Freil. At this point, Freil grew so angry at PC1, that he dedicated his focus to ruining PC1's life.

Freil, in searching to extend his life, developed a new magick. He gained the ability to create an image of PC1, though the cost was great. It would only last for a short time, but Freil was able to control the fake-PC1 while his body lay dormant, for periods up to an hour or two.

Several times, the fake PC1 went forth, insulting friends, and causing trouble. Freil's goal was to eventually make things so bad for PC1, that his own friends would kill him.

Freil also never gave PC1 rest, and several times tried to drag PC1 away from his friends, put him to sleep, then defile the land until he could create the fake-PC1, and send him back in.

It was soon after this, that PC1 and PC2, out hunting for Freil, were attacked by undead from an entirely different source. PC2 sent out a message to a third person (PC3), telling him that they were probably going to die, and to pass on some final words to a loved one of his if they didn't make it out.

They made it out, although PC 3 was not around at the time to know it. PC1 and PC2 went on to have several very high-profile adventures over the next few real life days. PC1 and PC2 though, went out exploring some more, and managed to get themselves killed. No one knew where they had gone, or that they were dead.

I, as an immortal, knew they had died. However, Freil had no way of knowing, and so he continued using the fake-PC1 to set the character up. I was very gratified to see the puzzled reactions of some of PC1's friends as he told them he'd struck an agreement with the defiler, but that they couldn't talk about it until he said it was safe (so that they wouldn't mention it again to the real PC1).

I planned to continue like this, and saw many possibilities for if Freil and the fake-PC. I guesstimate that over 20 characters had been involved in the quest to this point, and if I played the fake-PC well, I could probably involve a lot of players in the game.

Until... I log in, and hear people talking about how both of these characters are dead. PC3, who had been told the two were dying, had heard OOC that they'd died. Because of this, he never bothered to ask around to see if they were still alive. He instead just started telling people they were dead. If the players of the 2 dead PC's had not spread the word on ISCA they had died, PC3, who heard of the other adventures these 2 had had after their close call, would have inquired as to the timing, and found out they had been seen for IC weeks after he'd received the contact. Indeed, soon after their death, the fake-PC1 showed up and was seen by at least 10 players.

Well, now that everyone knows they are really dead, it really does make it hard me to run the quest. Those people who were directly interacting with the fake-PC1, would have had a lot of fun, I think, as they gradually figured out their friend wasn't what they thought he was. But now they know he is really dead, even OOCly, they were robbed of the chance to figure it all out on their own by the OOC actions of all 3 players.

That is why I'm posting this. That is why I'm taking the time to tell you the whole story. When you talk OOC, you are screwing over your fellow players. Even seemingly insignificant things like this, hurt the game, and ruin other people's fun.

The next time you find yourself in a situation where you want to tell a friend something that happened on the mud, please remember this story. We all love Armageddon, and it is natural to want to talk about it. But maybe you can reminesce about a character who is long dead instead, and save that new tale for somewhere down the road.

- Thanas

[Barzalene]

Stopping OOC collusion is impossible.  Efforts to do so will only create a witch-hunt atmosphere that is not fun for either players or staff.  There will always be a few people that form half-giant/elementalist/mul power ranger teams and who play the game to win.  It's not like you can put a keylogger on their AIM chats to prove they're doing it, either.

The only viable option, really, is trusting people to keep their IC knowledge and OOC knowledge separate.  I think an atmosphere of trust inspires more mature behavior then an atmosphere of draconian enforcement.

My tastes here are somewhat atypical, as I prefer a MUSH-style atmosphere where most players are free to share informaton with each other about ongoing plots and peek into the 'big picture,' and I realize this is not that kind of game.

To paraphrase what someone else said earlier in the thread, in lots of cases it isn't the OOC sharing that is problematic, it's what the players -do- with that information that is problematic.

In the example of the 'rinthi aide, the player of the disgruntled acquaintance, and the noble...sure it's frustrating when the truth is spilled OOC about something your character has been spending a good bit of time and effort plotting...but if the player of the noble learns the origin of their aide...guess what, they don't have to use that information.  Will they?  Maybe.  Who can say, that sort of thing depends on the player in question.  I would hope they wouldn't, but the fact is they might.  The point is...just because a player knows something OOC, it doesn't mean their PC knows it.  OOC sharing doesn't automatically ruin plots, that happens when players decide to abuse that OOC information.  

With every new character we all file away OOC knowledge and (hopefully) don't make it available to our new characters simply because we know it.  
We, the player, know things about the world and about other characters that our new PC doesn't know.  Maybe our new character has a background which makes sense for them to know some things, maybe they've made the right connections in game to actually have gained this knowledge, maybe they've simply lived long enough to have amassed a lot of information about the world.  But if they haven't, then it's up to us to not let them 'know things.'

There is OOC sharing, and there is OOC abuse.  One is not in the spirit of the game and has the potential to ruin plots, the other...not so much.  But it comes down to players policing themselves and deciding whether to use information or not.  Short of using a keylogger to prove there is sharing which might lead to abuse...what can staff do?

One suggestion was that players who learned things OOC could alert staff that there had been sharing... Does staff want however many requests to deal with that are essentially a bunch of grown-ups tattling on one and other?  Is it that hard for people to just not use the OOC information that they know and their PC doesn't?

We still haven't talked about the other person who is wronged here. What about the player of the noble who now has to play around the knowledge. They've had the element of surprise robbed from them.

I am friends with many of you. Most of you I avoid these discussions with.  Sometimes you guys say too much. Sometimes I have said too much. Generally we are ok. We do our best. We show up, play, and we aren't cheating. We also tell each other when we've crossed a line. Sometimes it's hard to say and hard to hear. That's ok. We still say it and hear it.


We are not the problem.

The problem is when people rely on friendships to avoid risk or gain advantage. The problem is when instead of exerting influence in game you influence how your friends play in discord or aim or at a bar.

I don't know but what staff could or should do. I know that we can police ourselves and each other. Don't make excuses to justify how and why we can be cheaters, or why it's ok to be mediocre. Do better. If you fuck up, own it and do better.

[a french mans shirt]

My god, you people have written a book since I was gone.

We should have some polls on this.

[Reiloth]

While I appreciate that players are pointing out the difference between intent, the fact of the matter is that even "social chatter" can affect the game negatively. It is possible to piece together the details of a plot by getting bits of the story from a variety of players. Characters who do this ICly are often called aides or spies; people who do this OOCly are often called cliques. I'll leave it to players to decide what they would rather be.

The very operative word here is 'can'. I'm also not one to need to discuss my previous PCs. Did I get a kick out of some mentions in the 'Whatever Happened To...?' thread? Sure, but I sometimes feel like the loose 'one year rule' isn't long enough in some instances (which, by the way, isn't a rule, it's just sort of an understanding with Staff). Other times, I don't think there's a big deal about it. For instance, with Tuluk closed, who cares if players gab to each other about plots that happened there, especially over 10 years ago? It not only seems draconian, it seems pointlessly draconian.

If it gets people excited about the game to talk about the 'Good Old Days', or get people to come back and play (or start playing for the first time, as was the case with myself and many others currently playing the game) how can Staff discourage that sort of behavior? I again think Staff needs to consider having an outlet on the GDB for this sort of thing, so that there is a sanctioned place (monitored by Staff) that this can happen in. As well, I think it's imperative that the Original Submissions be fixed. These safe outlets for sharing previous stories and logs will 100% go a long way to ameliorate the need for players in the playerbase to talk to each other on Gchat and AIM and whatever.

As it was pointed out by others in this thread, cheaters will be cheaters. Maybe we should realize that we were all 'that person' at one point or another, and not make it seem like they are 'bad people over there'. We've all done something shitty with some sort of OOC collusion. The 'cheaters' have misguided intentions, and should be given examples like the Freil story to see what kind of damage OOC collusion can inflict on the game environment, so they can change their own mind and decide to put aside OOC collusion for the betterment of the game.

The part that Nergal is right about, with social chatter and how it 'can' affect the game negatively, is that innocuous conversations out of the game can very quickly become OOC collusion. I try to make it very clear up front with people if I don't feel comfortable talking about this or that, or basically where the line is. I used to be very fuzzy on that line in the past, within the first 5 years of playing the game. I decided (after having a plot I was involved in similarly ruined by what I found out later to be an OOC clique of people working against my group of people) to delete my AIM list or otherwise block people who I spoke with about Armageddon. It vastly improved my experience in the game, but after a time, I felt that I was missing the community. So I decided to reach back out to some of the people I had blocked, but set some ground rules so we just discussed RL and 'the way back PCs'.

I've made some great friends from the community in this game, and I think it's a shame if Staff doesn't recognize that fully. Some people have married each other from contacting each other outside of this game. We, as a playerbase, and I imagine as Staff, enjoy the OOC community we have built around the game. So -- To say that even 'casual chatter' can negatively affect the game in essence says -- Don't talk to each other outside of the game. Not only is that not going to happen, but it's I think unnecessary to posit.



Instead, I think we need to figure out what is and isn't a healthy OOC conversation. And what sorts of OOC collusion (pretty much all of it, but examples) that have ruined plots, and what to avoid in the future. That's all.

[Nergal]

Yes, the operative word is "can". And it's healthy to want to talk about something you enjoy. Some amount of moderation (and self-moderation, in particular) is needed to maintain that which you enjoy, in this case.

[Kankfly]

I didn't read the entire thread, so if I repeat a point or something, sorry in advance.

But I like what Barzelene said.

We still haven't talked about the other person who is wronged here. What about the player of the noble who now has to play around the knowledge. They've had the element of surprise robbed from them.

I am friends with many of you. Most of you I avoid these discussions with.  Sometimes you guys say too much. Sometimes I have said too much. Generally we are ok. We do our best. We show up, play, and we aren't cheating. We also tell each other when we've crossed a line. Sometimes it's hard to say and hard to hear. That's ok. We still say it and hear it.


We are not the problem.

The problem is when people rely on friendships to avoid risk or gain advantage. The problem is when instead of exerting influence in game you influence how your friends play in discord or aim or at a bar.

I don't know but what staff could or should do. I know that we can police ourselves and each other. Don't make excuses to justify how and why we can be cheaters, or why it's ok to be mediocre. Do better. If you fuck up, own it and do better.

And I agree. 100%. Staff monitoring can only go so far, but in the end, it's up to the players to be responsible. We all love this game, and we don't want to see this game go to ruins. There is a reason why the rules forbade OOC communication, and while I understand that because we enjoy sharing good experience with people, we also have to understand when to stop.

I think it should be okay to share casual things about the game, as long as they aren't spoilers. For example, one thing I enjoy talking OOC to my friends about the game is discussion on certain roleplaying aspects, such as, 'How do you think a standard Stormer behaves when faced with an outsider? What is the standard Stormer's psyche in comparison to a regular Nakki's?' These things don't give out any IC spoilers, but are still conversations about the game, which I think should be considered harmless.

I don't think it's okay to share too much, and it's certainly not okay to affect the players you talk to OOCly in order to manipulate them into playing their PCs to your advantage. Because when that happens, it nurses an atmosphere of paranoia, aka the witch hunt. And to be honest, this atmosphere does nothing but ruins trust in staff, and in players. While we cannot control what other people do, we can control what we do, and if we all stop ourselves from giving away too much IC information, perhaps trust between players, between staff, and within the whole community, can be increased.

If someone starts pushing the boundaries, we shouldn't encourage them. Be better ourselves, and things will get better.

I think it's also important to communicate better. I can see how the idea of 'cliques' can happen. I think part of the reason is the consolidation of the playerbase. I'm pretty sure I've played with more than one player in multiple clans with characters in quick successions. It wasn't intentional in my part, and I certainly don't know the player OOC, but it just so happens that we enjoy playing in the same type of clans. From staff side, it would appear that I'm playing with my OOC friend all the time, when in reality, I'm not.

So if that happens, and staff notices oddity like this, I, as a player, would love staff to send me an email and let me know that this is happening, so that I have a chance to explain myself. I feel communication is extremely essential in this game, more so than other games. If trust is to be cultivated, then good communication is key.

[Reiloth]

Yes, the operative word is "can". And it's healthy to want to talk about something you enjoy. Some amount of moderation (and self-moderation, in particular) is needed to maintain that which you enjoy, in this case.

Right -- The original question of the thread being 'What can Staff do about this?' I think (in my opinion) is answered by -- Set parameters as to what you consider to be OOC collusion, or healthy self-moderated OOC collaboration/conversation. I think the area is quite grey, and could be made a bit more solid out of the ether.

Is it OK to discuss Magick Mechanics? No, here's why (anecdotal story, or just examples of why the mystery can be greater than the OOC knowledge)

Is it OK to discuss current IG events and PCs? No, here's why (anecdotal story #1, and #2)

Is it OK to discuss past PCs? Sort of, here's some guidelines.



I think when you have the ShadowBoard, and there will always be something like that, you have a new player coming to the game who isn't used to this secretive, non-inclusive environment. They are used to WoW, or other MUDs with global channels, and so on. So from the outside in, i'm sure this appears to be Much Illuminati. And on the Shadowboards, they can just speak their mind freely and discuss whatever they want.

So I think until we distill the 'why' behind OOC Collusion and spell it out very neatly, it's going to remain very esoteric and subjective.

[nauta]

In my view, what is problematic is not OOC communication but the simple act of using knowledge your character should not have.  And this can happen from a variety of different sources: the internet, OOC communication, or a previous PC.  So I don't think the focus should be on OOC communication, since, again: you can use knowledge from a previous PC to ruin a plot/cheat.  (Take Nergal's example: that plot could have been ruined in the exact same way owing to a PC using their knowledge from their previous PC [killed by Freil, or even one of the PCs who died].)  Likewise, your enjoyment of a plot can also be ruined from knowledge you acquired from a previous PC, e.g., you saw that PC cast on an earlier PC, but this PC doesn't know.  

Handling the onus of prior (or outside) knowledge is part of learning the ropes of an RPI.  And it won't be easy or obvious to people at first.

Hence, I think the focus should be on the explicit act of cheating, with a warning system (like plagiarism cases): the first time, you are brought into the office and the reason why this is bad is explained to you in a humane way, and a mark is placed on your permanent record, and you are told that if this happens again, there will be severe punishments, which you should recognize, since the reasons why this is bad were explained to you).

I also think it should be on us the players to regulate this -- whether it be through ratting or whatever, but perhaps some sort of FAQ about why using knowledge from a previous PC is so bad -- with examples -- would be something useful to have.  Staff could then point to this when such cases come up -- it is nice in plagiarism cases to just point a student to a page that explains why plagiarism is bad, since in this day and age where potential First Ladies even do it, apparently, students don't even know that it is bad.