Out of Character and you... the grey of grey areas.

[Ath]

So I am going to bring up a controversial topic, something that a lot of people talk about on the Player and also Staff side of things.  It's probably a topic that gets under the skin of most staff, I cannot say for certain, as I can only speak for myself.  It is an important topic, as it has a huge baring upon the game as a whole.  It effects both players and staff.  It's probably one of the hardest areas for staff to regulate as it is such a grey area and from what I can see, there is little way to make it not so grey.

Out of Character outside the game itself.  This include just chatting out of character with friends outside the game, but more specifically talking about IC events, collusion, and secrets within the game.  The part that is covered under Rule 6 & 7 here:  http://armageddon.org/help/view/Rules

So my disclaimer... I am opening this topic because I have questions and I think this needs to be talked about openly.  This topic will probably get heated, I kindly request that you be kind to everyone in this thread and follow the rules of the game and forums.  I am not asking for how you follow the rules, I can see everyone's account notes and we are not talking about specific instances here, so don't bring it up.  If you feel like you are being specifically targeted (which isn't the intention of this thread at all) then put in a complaint, do not air it here.  This thread is to gather information and opinions, if you don't like the opinion, discuss it... don't get upset because someone doesn't agree with your opinion.  Finally, if you feel like you will get upset and heated on this topic and that you may post something that could break a rule of the forums, just don't post here.  I will delete posts that don't add to the topic, I will lock this if it gets out of hand.

So onto the why...  OOC (in the way I mentioned above) has screwed up plots in game, I have seen instances where a plot that staff has put a lot of time an effort into, trying to make it fun for the players, was completely ruined because of OOC conversations about said plots.  This has happened multiple times and is a huge moral hit on staff side, it freaken sucks.  This ruins the fun for both staff and players.  It has made players not want to play.  I can think of a specific instance where a certain player I know of, not going to mention any names, was apart of something pretty big in game, it was then posted OOC about who the player was, and then IC actions were taken on OOC information.  This killed the players want to play, because technically, no one would have had any idea about what happened IC, it was spoiled because of OOC.

In all, this rule is in place to keep the game fun for others, players and staff.  To keep the game fair for all, but still... people break the rule all the time.  The issue is that it's of my opinion it is the hardest rule to enforce.  Why?  Because unless someone, be it player or staff, brings up evidence, how are we certain that someone is doing this?  This rule doesn't just apply to players, it also applies to staff, and we are also held accountable.  We can watch someone playing the game and it can be very clear when someone used OOC to help themselves.  Example:  Character is dying somewhere.  Another Character logs in and immediately finds said character and rescues them.  (You may laugh, but this happens.)  But when someone is talking OOC on IM or Discord or Teamspeak or whatever, and they talk about what is going on in the game... how do you prevent that?

Even the the simplest thing as, hey... I found so an so is a magicker.  This can potentially have an effect on how you play your character around another character.  If I am playing a secret Psion and lets say a player finds out in an IC manner that I'm playing this Psion, and then OOC tells another player, that would have no way to find out, lets say they are a Templar, that my character is a Psion, it will likely affect the way this PC Templar acts around my character.  Everyone can and will say that they can separate OOC and IC, even I say it, but I know subtly it affects the way I play.

So this is what I ask you...  How does we regulate this rule?  What if we see something going on in game that could be potentially OOC collusion?  How do we prevent it?  What do you think we should do if there is a grey area?  I will tell you straight up, I've had concrete evidence that someone was using OOC collusion, and when I confronted them, they lied to me about it.  It's frustrating to see this, and players will and have gotten banned over it.  I can say for myself that I don't like having to hunt down this, I wish I never did have to... and man, I hate seeing my other staff members getting hurt over it.  That is why I am posting this topic.  I want your thoughts, I want your opinions, I want your advice.  I hate seeing players and staff getting hurt over all this.

Last disclosure, I am doing this topic in hopes of constructive feedback and opinions.  My opinion may not be the opinion of staff as a whole.  Try to keep it clean... thank you.

[whitt]

I think the root of the problem is that the players and staff, generally love (I mean REALLY love) this game.  Human nature is to want to share experiences, both good and bad.  When something AWESOME!!!1!! happens IG you want to share it with friends, family, other people who might and even might not want to hear about this AwesomeThing (tm).

Now imagine if the game was a book or a movie.  It's not that different.

What you're talking about, I think, is akin to sharing spoilers about the Game of Thrones, the next Star Wars movie, or who dies in the Walking Dead.  Imagine not being able to talk about the last episode of Walking Dead until next year...

Folks want to talk about their experiences and have a laugh with others in the community, it's honestly REALLY HARD not to.  I do think the community could better at not sharing true spoilers like "Amos is a Gick", but the total blanket on discussing the game at all is rough.

[Iiyola]

Having been staff of a totally different RP game I can totally relate. It sucks. A lot. And yeah, people will lie. Occasionally they don't. And as a staffer it makes you bitter and jaded and it was the reason I left within 3 months and became a regular player again, I didn't need all that extra frustration.

The thing is, when people are enthused about a game, they like to share their experiences. Just like watching a good tv show: it's always better if you watch it with someone else. And that's where the lines of OOC get blurry. I sadly don't have a suggestion for you. What I noticed when I was staff, trying to prevent people from poisoning the well, was that I was starting to micromanage, kept a really close eye on a certain player and when they eventually did make a faux pas, it was rather minor, but it looked so huge in my eyes because I kept a close eye on this player. And eventually -I- made a huge deal over nothing.

So I have to hand it to you, Ath, I truly appreciate all the work you and the other staffers put into the game. I know it's not easy one bit.

The only suggestion I can offer is to open threads like this and just be frank about it towards the players and ask them if they please would tone down the OOC information cause it will poison the well, and no one benefits from it, especially not staff. Just as a reminder.

EDIT: Hah! Whitt, get out of my head.

[Ath]

Essentially yes, but there are cases where I have seen players deliberately working together to "Win Armageddon".  None of us would be here if we didn't like Arm in some way or another.  Personally, I have little issue with chatting about the game a bit, but within reason that it won't ruin the experience of another player.  I mean, if we were that stringent, I would be breaking the rule also.  I have talked about my characters with others, I probably shouldn't have, but I tried to remain conscious of not talking about details that could effect the play of another.  I also don't spread information that I learn from someone to another.  I know I get excited, I love talking about the game, but most of the time I try to talk about old characters and past events... typically never bringing up current events unless they are very public.  Ask anyone on the Teamspeak that has talked with me, I love talking about the game.

This is more so targeted at cases where there is intentional benefit, not the casual chatting about the game.  While yes, the casual chatting can cause problems, and I suggest to any player to be careful as you never know what it can do IC, so don't put it aside.  We all are responsible for what we talk about and who's fun we may or may not ruin.

[Riev]

Agree with Whitt. Its unfortunate, but we're here to write, share, collect, and tell stories. Its difficult to be told not to, when the information is so "OMG!"

So this is what I ask you...  How does we regulate this rule?  What if we see something going on in game that could be potentially OOC collusion?  How do we prevent it?  What do you think we should do if there is a grey area?  I will tell you straight up, I've had concrete evidence that someone was using OOC collusion, and when I confronted them, they lied to me about it.  It's frustrating to see this, and players will and have gotten banned over it.  I can say for myself that I don't like having to hunt down this, I wish I never did have to... and man, I hate seeing my other staff members getting hurt over it.  

Concerning this: I honestly cannot blame the person for lying when confronted, because whether it was intentional or not, the consequences are severe if you're a person who genuinely likes the game or it has become part of their life. Unfortunately, you will almost never have hard confirmation that someone broke a rule, because that's like a cop coming to your house and asking if you have weed in the kitchen. Unless they can -see- it, there's nothing they can really do and nobody is going to admit to having an illegal substance.

What I wouldn't like to see, though, and I'm sorry for sharing a personal experience, is the ASSUMPTION that someone did something and railing on them for it. I once played a Tuluki Templar, and had access to the docs (which were on the website at the time). After I'd stored, a while later another role came up and I thought I might want to try it again (unknowing that that TYPICALLY doesn't happen, especially if the first was stored). So I was checking around every couple days on the documentation, trying to get a feel for the role. Then I got Imm-summoned and had a number of threats levied against me because other IP addresses from known players were accessing the docs. It was reasonable to question me on it, but the trust I had in staff was decimated after the treatment I received for a situation I had no part of.

Its already difficult to approach someone you think was spreading the information, and staff were monitoring other areas/boards as much as they could but sadly... you won't be able to STOP it. And due to the nature of the game, there is no way you can allow it even with reasonable restrictions. The trouble is that pursuing it can shake someone's faith, like it did mine, not that I'm exactly a wonderful player in my own.

I might suggest some sort of 'strike' rule, perhaps, where the consequences of spreading the information once or twice is not ban-hammer worthy. Maybe I have a friend on AIM and I was really excited about my new sub-Sorceror PC and I let it slip. If staff comes to me on it, I might be more willing to admit that I -did- say something to <x> person if I knew it wasn't zero-tolerance grounds for immediate removal from a game I've played for over 10 years.

[Reiloth]

Great question -- How does Staff regulate something like this? I don't think they can. It's a subtle beast, and one that I think would take combing with a microscope to fully recognize in every instance.

I think what needs to happen is a cultural shift. I can honestly say that ten or so years ago, there was much more reverence for the IC/OOC disconnect. As Whitt points out, we love this game, and we want to talk about it, but the outlets for discussing it on the GDB are quite limited. So people turn to AIM or the equivalents now a days -- Gchat, and so on. Once you get started talking about the game, there comes this moment where you can decide to make the IC/OOC line firm (I'm not comfortable talking about that, it's too IC), or you cross the line (Oh man yeah, Dinkus is such a turd, I think they're a Krathi secretly...).

The culture needs to shift away from 'Winning Armageddon', which i've said for a while now. I've noticed there is a trend to 'Start That Indie Clan' and 'Take over the World', and plenty of other meta groups in-between. I don't think all of this is OOCly coordinated, actually. I think it's just a culture shift. People aren't RPing to the hilt, they are influencing decisions with OOC goals, which I think happens when you've been playing the game for a long ass time. You want to do something grand, or great, and not just play the nobody anymore.

I used to cross the IC/OOC line OFTEN when I was first playing the game, and it took someone (actually my RL friend who played with me at the time, Galdun) pointing out to me it was a shitty thing to do. That breaking the IC/OOC barrier actually goes against the spirit of the game. And it definitely goes against the spirit of Staff, and how they staff, the game.

I think what Staff -could- do, instead of trying to regulate the game itself, is to provide a comfortable environment for people to discuss the game OOCly. There obviously need to be parameters, quite similar to what is being put forward by Staff in the forum rules currently. And actually Ath, your 'Whatever Happened To' thread I think has given many people a moment of catharsis in being able to discuss previous PCs.

Having a sub-forum where a Staff member begins a thread, say "Tuluk 2006", and people are allowed to share their thoughts/feelings about their PCs and plots of that time, with that Staff now taking the onus to moderate/monitor the thread for going off track or divulging too much, would do wonders for the community I think. These threads could have a time limit, say a month, and after that a new topic is introduced and the previous one is locked. Staff could put out a polling thread for what to discuss next. It would:

*Allow veterans to reminisce about old PCs that they had and share stories of what they were about.
*Allow newbies to get a glimpse into the past, and how robust that past is on ArmageddonMUD
*Allow people to form a community inside of the GDB, rather than turning to outside sources to illicitly speak and share details that might not be kosher.
*Provide that outlet that people need to share their love of the game, and not just discuss the semantics/code/discussions about the game mechanics.
*Allow Staff to get organic feedback on what worked in the past, and what didn't -- Say, opening a discussion about Armageddon Reborn, or the closure of Tuluk, or the Gith Wars.



One other thing I think would help immensely: Original Submissions! I know Staff is likely already working on this, but it's a GREAT outlet for players. I started playing ArmageddonMUD because of the original submissions (Stories, and Logs). It encourages a community of writing and storytelling, which is one of the many appeals of ArmageddonMUD. Not having it easily accessible, or easily submitted to, is a tragedy. It is a perfect outlet for Players to positively contribute to the game, and feel like they are being noticed/heard/read.

Anyways, just some thoughts.

[Beethoven]

Honestly? I don't agree with the "don't talk about current IG events" rule. Some people care about spoilers, and others don't. It ruins some people's immersion, and doesn't ruin others'. That's fine. It's what you, and those whom you share with, do with the information that makes all the difference.

My boyfriend is the local body master of a local chapter of an honest-to-goodness secret society with actual secrets and vows of silence, and based on what I've told him about the Arm culture of secrecy, he says that Armageddon is more secretive than his organization. That should tell you something.

You can't police people's private conversations. You just can't. It's really none of staff's business what I talk to a friend about. (Within reason, of course. If I'm actually colluding and cheating, or posting a list of known magickers on my blog, that's a whole different animal than sharing a funny anecdote with the people who share my niche hobby!) For the staff to attempt to control people's words outside the game feels stifling and overbearing, and makes them look like a bunch of busybodies.

Shouldn't the focus be cheating and collusion, not mere words? Yes, someone can take someone's innocent anecdote and abuse it, but then again, you can also abuse information you've learned on your previous characters. For example, maybe my last character knew X was a sorcerer, and my new character shouldn't. You can't protect people from knowing stuff their character shouldn't know. It's always going to happen. Yes, it's a difficult thing to prove when somebody's been abusing information gained OOC, but it's also difficult to prove when people are sharing IC information with each other, unless you encourage people to tattle on each other, and frankly, that's not a game culture I want to be a part of.

You should only share information with people you trust. You should never share with the intention of affecting IG events. And if something is shared with you OOCly, you should do your absolute best to not let it influence your IC actions, and err on the side of caution as far as that goes. And you should always respect someone's request not to share information they're not comfortable with having. But to actually try to crack down on people's mere words? Just for innocently chatting about what's going on in the game they love? That's a ridiculous rule to try to maintain. You can encourage people not to talk and mention the merits of not sharing those sorts of stories, but to make it an actual rule with actual IG punishment goes beyond reasonable IMO.

Maybe not a popular opinion, but that's how I feel about it.

EDIT: Another effect I think occurs is that because the "no sharing" rule is so very broad and so very harsh to the point of being unreasonable to expect players to keep to, that it becomes the norm for people not to take that rule seriously and to break it without much thought. Because of this, people are more likely to collude and cheat because the rule intended to prevent them from doing so is commonly considered one of those rules that isn't really important.

[Reiloth]

I think the problem is once the cat's out of the bag, it's difficult to put it back in. So part of what Ath is talking about is that anecdotal story of 'The Sorcerer that kidnapped someone and killed them and took control of their body, but the person who died OOCly told all his buddies he died, so when the Animated Corpse Sorcerer came into town pretending to be him, no one bought it and he was killed, etc.'

I don't think the casual conversation is what Ath is talking about, as he admits to doing that himself. It's the sharing of secrets, and of IG plot secrets especially, that can stop a plot in its track or turn people off from playing the game.

[Beethoven]

I don't think it's good to share those things, and it's especially not good to spread them around. I think it should be discouraged. However, I don't think you can control that, and you certainly shouldn't try to control it with a scorched earth policy. The problem is that as far as the current policy goes, there isn't really a distinction between important IC information being shared and harmless IC information being shared. It's great that Ath is making the distinction between the two, but officially, they're the same, and it leads to a culture where the rule is not taken seriously and both are shrugged off.

[whitt]

I think the problem is once the cat's out of the bag, it's difficult to put it back in. So part of what Ath is talking about is that anecdotal story of 'The Sorcerer that kidnapped someone and killed them and took control of their body, but the person who died OOCly told all his buddies he died, so when the Animated Corpse Sorcerer came into town pretending to be him, no one bought it and he was killed, etc.'

I don't think the casual conversation is what Ath is talking about, as he admits to doing that himself. It's the sharing of secrets, and of IG plot secrets especially, that can stop a plot in its track or turn people off from playing the game.

Agree with Reiloth that we as players also need to buy more into the fact that we're not here to "win Armageddon".  Yes there is an enormous time and emotional investment in our PCs.  But!  And this has to be a Trump-level Huge But, we also have to buy into the fact that breaking the OOC barrier for IC help inside the game is not acceptable.

Maybe what is needed is a sort of levels of OOC information sharing with the following being a suggested start for what is "right out" -
1) OOC-Tampering for IG benefit (eg OOCing a friend to get IG and take part in something that is currently going on) - blatantly wrong.  Now you're cheating.
2) Intentionally revealing IG plot secrets OOCly (eg Amos is a gick! or Malika just killed me!) - akin to posting spoilers, strongly discouraged and worthy of action if repeated.  Now you're ruining other people's fun.
3) After those it gets a bit more grey.  Because you need to be very carefully not to wander into #2.

Likewise per Riev, I think if there was an option to admit guilt without risking the ban-hammer, there might be more potential to seek repentance instead of denial in the face of blatant facts which only leads to even more hurt feelings.  Very difficult to build a culture where we all feel trusted and respected when a few "bad apples" can really "poison the well" to quote Iyola.

[Jingo]

I'm not currently playing right now. But I can testify by my own experience that OOC cliques form for some very real (if maybe the wrong) reasons.

I quickly start losing interest in rolling the dice and trusting other players to not pull dick moves on me.

How many times do I have to be psi-sniffed by a templar, outed by someone across the known or killed for some lame-ass reason before I start pulling ooc resources? The bullshit keeps piling on and on and all I fucking want to do is play a character the way I want to play them.

So why not just play with friends instead?

[Ath]

Honestly? I don't agree with the "don't talk about current IG events" rule. Some people care about spoilers, and others don't. It ruins some people's immersion, and doesn't ruin others'. That's fine. It's what you, and those whom you share with, do with the information that makes all the difference.

My boyfriend is the local body master of a local chapter of an honest-to-goodness secret society with actual secrets and vows of silence, and based on what I've told him about the Arm culture of secrecy, he says that Armageddon is more secretive than his organization. That should tell you something.

You can't police people's private conversations. You just can't. It's really none of staff's business what I talk to a friend about. (Within reason, of course. If I'm actually colluding and cheating, or posting a list of known magickers on my blog, that's a whole different animal than sharing a funny anecdote with the people who share my niche hobby!) For the staff to attempt to control people's words outside the game feels stifling and overbearing, and makes them look like a bunch of busybodies.

Shouldn't the focus be cheating and collusion, not mere words? Yes, someone can take someone's innocent anecdote and abuse it, but then again, you can also abuse information you've learned on your previous characters. For example, maybe my last character knew X was a sorcerer, and my new character shouldn't. You can't protect people from knowing stuff their character shouldn't know. It's always going to happen. Yes, it's a difficult thing to prove when somebody's been abusing information gained OOC, but it's also difficult to prove when people are sharing IC information with each other, unless you encourage people to tattle on each other, and frankly, that's not a game culture I want to be a part of.

You should only share information with people you trust. You should never share with the intention of affecting IG events. And if something is shared with you OOCly, you should do your absolute best to not let it influence your IC actions, and err on the side of caution as far as that goes. And you should always respect someone's request not to share information they're not comfortable with having. But to actually try to crack down on people's mere words? Just for innocently chatting about what's going on in the game they love? That's a ridiculous rule to try to maintain. You can encourage people not to talk and mention the merits of not sharing those sorts of stories, but to make it an actual rule with actual IG punishment goes beyond reasonable IMO.

Maybe not a popular opinion, but that's how I feel about it.

EDIT: Another effect I think occurs is that because the "no sharing" rule is so very broad and so very harsh to the point of being unreasonable to expect players to keep to, that it becomes the norm for people not to take that rule seriously and to break it without much thought. Because of this, people are more likely to collude and cheat because the rule intended to prevent them from doing so is commonly considered one of those rules that isn't really important.

You have some points and you may not agree, but the whole point of those rules are ruining other's fun, be it player or staff, it doesn't matter.  Also the focus of this conversation is more on the topic of OOC infromation that will ruin the fun for others, that will harm plots, the game, the players, the staff in the way they are talked about.  If someone is chatting about about the new changes that happened to the salt flats, or how there is a festival coming up in Allanak, shit that -anyone- can pretty much figure out, I could care less.  

If you want to talk about how you were playing a psionisist and you found about this cool information on a templar and then spread it to your friend, who you say you can trust, but then said friend spreads it to someone else, who then reports the logs to staff.  That will get action taken against it.  No one has control on what information is spread anywhere, look at what is already out there.  Who knows if the information is correct or not, shit... most of what I've read that is out there is hilariously wrong.

Lot of information here.

Thank you for the feedback on this, and a lot of what you're say is right.  It's really all about self-control on crossing or not crossing that IC/OOC line.  I mean really the only people that can police any of this is themselves.  I just know if you're going to do something to ruin the fun in a unfair way to another player or staff member, I will look into and take action.

Riev, you have a good point on the whole personal experience and I'm sorry to hear it happened that way.  It has been a personal goal to try to treat everyone fairly.  I come from a very extensive customer service background and I try to utilize that experience within any interaction I have with players.  This is a volunteer staffed game, and we can try to do our best, but sometimes feelings get hurt.  All I can ask is that you look at the both sides and if anything, come back with an open mind on it and try to positive again.  I cannot force you to do so, but I can ask you nicely.  The idea of a strike rule is fine and all, but what if the first strike is someone spreading information about a significant plot that then ruins the plot for a whole lot of people?  I mean, I know personally that the cases I have seen, leniency will happen if you don't lie.  If you come out with the truth, and don't lie about it... we're more likely to work with you.  I know personally I would never drag someone upstairs if I don't have some sort of evidence or facts to work from.

[Drayab]

I do not envy staff the responsibility of bringing the hammer down on people who collude through OOC channels to 'win the game.' It's a dirty job, but it has to be done. I know I would be monumentally pissed if my hard work was ruined because of cheaters. And we all know that's what it is--cheating.

If staff feels like they have a strong case for cheating, they should prosecute it. If there isn't already, make sure there are safe guards like making three staffers agree with facts of the case. Maybe shoot the player(s) a warning if suspicions are being aroused so that the air can be cleared before things get out of hand.

To be frank I don't even care much for the "let's talk about old characters" type threads (I avoid it) because it strikes me a bunch of vain self-congratulation, but if people need a outlet so badly, I suppose it's better that is a regulated, though I worry that it is a slippery slope. I realize this is an easy position for me because I have no interest in idle chit-chat about old characters. I keep the nice memories all to myself.  

[Marauder Moe]

I am forced to wonder if the gradual loosening of IC info restriction on the GDB over the years has, in turn, further loosened people's attitudes about it elsewhere.

But certainly that isn't the only cause, if it's a factor at all.  Plots have been ruined by IC info sharing since Arm existed in its RPI form.  I don't think it's something that can be really "solved".  You just have to catch people when you can.  Ban them when you should.  Remind players about it every now and then, like you just did.

[Beethoven]

I have so many things I could say about this right now, but it's probably extremely inappropriate for me to do so. Suffice it to say that I have seen first-hand how overzealous some staff can be in the pursuit of this issue, and it has left a sour taste in my mouth that will probably never go away.

[Jingo]

Deleted because you didn't follow my initial post's request and for not being nice..  -Ath

Alright. Allow me to elaborate without vague-booking.

Beethoven's case is particularly disheartening because I know for fact they they're the kind of person I'd want to see on staff.

I can think of several community members that are guilty of more or less the same on a daily basis. I can't out them because they're either friends or we have friends in common.

I've also seen the same on the player level too.

[Ath]

I have so many things I could say about this right now, but it's probably extremely inappropriate for me to do so. Suffice it to say that I have seen first-hand how overzealous some staff can be in the pursuit of this issue, and it has left a sour taste in my mouth that will probably never go away.

I'm going to ask you to do so, as you have your side of the story and there is always another side of it.  I'm sorry you feel that way, if you wish to discuss your incident more, you are welcome to open a request, just like anyone else.  This conversation is not about personal issues, this is about the topic in general.

I will blatantly say to anyone, staff discusses almost all issues together, including these.  Rare is it that one staff member makes a decision without consulting others, it's how we call can keep each other in check.  Why do you even think this topic is being created?  I just felt that I wanted to bring this topic up to the public and get your thoughts.  I knew it was going to be a heated topic.

[Beethoven]

Well, as you can likely see, I opened a request but it was closed by the staff member in question, so I heard loud and clear that it was done being discussed.

I'm not trying to make this thread about me or my bitterness, but I do think I have seen a side of this issue that other people are not necessarily aware of. If you think it's okay for me to talk about it here, then I'll do so (without names, of course), but I want to confirm that's what you're saying, as I am not interested in causing further trouble or doing more unkosher things.

[Beethoven]

Wait, or are you saying you're asking me not to do so? Now I'm confused.

[whitt]

I am forced to wonder if the gradual loosening of IC info restriction on the GDB over the years has, in turn, further loosened people's attitudes about it elsewhere.

I think the age of the game and the familiarity of the player base has a lot to do with it as well.  

As Reiloth and Beethoven both mentioned, folks have been playing this game a long, long time.  Each PC they make has every ounce of OOC knowledge their previous PCs have acquired.  Trying to "police"all spread of OOC knowledge would be akin to trying to "police" all use of previous character IC knowledge.  It's untenable.  If we don't know who is playing which PC, what difference then does it make how they came upon the IC information that they are acting upon?

Could you imagine, pulling someone aside to ask, "How does your Rinth Rat Elf know how to get from Allanak to Luirs?"  or watching a certain cave with water in it, and asking every PC that stops by how they ICly found out about it.  That's the kind of micro-managing that would just suck the life out of everyone involved.

Instead, I think the simple litmus-tests of "Is this OOC-collaboration with another player for IG-benefit" and "Is this IC information, if gained OOCly, going to directly harm another player's enjoyment of their PC" are worthy starters for when a player should be contacted and have their OOC usage discussed with staff.

[Beethoven]

I am forced to wonder if the gradual loosening of IC info restriction on the GDB over the years has, in turn, further loosened people's attitudes about it elsewhere.

I think the age of the game and the familiarity of the player base has a lot to do with it as well.  

As Reiloth and Beethoven both mentioned, folks have been playing this game a long, long time.  Each PC they make has every ounce of OOC knowledge their previous PCs have acquired.  Trying to "police"all spread of OOC knowledge would be akin to trying to "police" all use of previous character IC knowledge.  It's untenable.  If we don't know who is playing which PC, what difference then does it make how they came upon the IC information that they are acting upon?

Could you imagine, pulling someone aside to ask, "How does your Rinth Rat Elf know how to get from Allanak to Luirs?"  or watching a certain cave with water in it, and asking every PC that stops by how they ICly found out about it.  That's the kind of micro-managing that would just suck the life out of everyone involved.

Instead, I think the simple litmus-tests of "Is this OOC-collaboration with another player for IG-benefit" and "Is this IC information, if gained OOCly, going to directly harm another player's enjoyment of their PC" are worthy starters for when a player should be contacted and have their OOC usage discussed with staff.

+1

[Beethoven]

People act like it's a slippery slope--spread this and you might spread another, more harmful thing--but the real slippery slope is coming down SO hard on ALL kinds of OOCly-spread IC information that people no longer take the rule that is meant to prevent cheating and collusion seriously. People are following their own moral guidelines instead of the rules. They decide for themselves what is acceptable to share and what isn't. If the rules were more reasonable, then people wouldn't do that. They'd be more likely to actually follow the rules rather than making up their own personal rules that may in fact be a little iffy or borderline.

Kind of like the speed limit in the US is set way too low, so it's considered acceptable to break it by a bit, no matter what the drivers' manual says. And then you either push it further until it becomes unsafe, or you just plain get busted by a cop trying to meet his ticket quota. It works much better in the places in Europe where the limit is just that...a hard upper limit that no one should be breaking, ever.

[Drayab]

Instead, I think the simple litmus-tests of "Is this OOC-collaboration with another player for IG-benefit" and "Is this IC information, if gained OOCly, going to directly harm another player's enjoyment of their PC" are worthy starters for when a player should be contacted and have their OOC usage discussed with staff.

Yup, I agree with that. I'm much less bothered by game secret spoilers being shared than I am OOC coordination regarding current plot activities.

[Jingo]

I'm not currently playing right now. But I can testify by my own experience that OOC cliques form for some very real (if maybe the wrong) reasons.

I quickly start losing interest in rolling the dice and trusting other players to not pull dick moves on me.

How many times do I have to be psi-sniffed by a templar, outed by someone across the known or killed for some lame-ass reason before I start pulling ooc resources? The bullshit keeps piling on and on and all I fucking want to do is play a character the way I want to play them.

So why not just play with friends instead?

I'd like to reiterate that you can't address the problem without addressing the dysfunctional systems that players are forced to work around and the perverted incentives for doing so.

[Zenith]

I've been struggling with what to write since this thread opened.

Ath, I appreciate that you distinguish between cheating with intent, and casual chatter. I think the problem becomes that the game can quickly become competitive, and some people want to win at any cost. It can also be an easy step from talking about what's going on to sharing too much. I've done the latter, I'll admit it. I'm not perfect. I imagine everyone here has done the same sometimes either with or without intent.

For me, I have no other outlet to discuss this game I love. To discuss the things that make me happy, sad, excited, angry. I can talk about it with my game-loving husband, but he doesn't play, he doesn't really understand, and sometimes it's clear he just doesn't think it's 1/10th as interesting as I do. I have literally no friends who I would ever bring up mudding with (sometimes it feels like some secret addiction I hide from the rest of the world), and so the few friends I've made here are who I talk to and share with. I don't think that's wrong.

I don't know if any of my plots or secrets have been ruined by OOC. I don't know if that has in any way motivated people playing with or against me. I've wondered if it has, but it felt too vastly conspiracy theory to even give credit to.

I do think that blatant cheating should be pursued more aggressively, and a standard system of punishment created and applied equally to all. And I think whatever the system is should be transparent, or possibly have the input of non-staff members. It's not a big leap to say that interested members of the community, all of whom must be in good standing, are given the chance to review grievances and add their voice on behalf of the players as to any judgement passed on those who stand accused of cheating. I think pulling from Helpers, who are already community leaders, is a reasonable place to start. Giving us a voice in the outcome of a situation could be beneficial overall. Anyone with an ooc friendship or ic stake in the matter would clearly be asked to refrain from voicing an opinion in matters relating to them.

But, I suggest that without knowing how staffside disciplinary actions work, or if there could be a place for this sort of role.