Mounts

[nauta]

Let me give some caveats, first:

1. I could be really wrong about this due to limited experience.
2. Please do not reveal code details, as discovering which mount is good at what IG is a fun and rewarding thing to do, IMHO.

That said:

It would seem that there are two mounts that are worth a hoot (maybe three) -- and by hoot I mean you can get from one end of the known to the other, zipping past monsters, without needing to rest.  

The other mounts -- while awesome for style -- put you in hard mode, either due to low stamina or slowness.

I'd like to see diversity in mounts, and 'hard mode' is pretty fun.  

So... my suggestion: can we make these amazing mounts (without naming them) really expensive (so as to make them rare)?  Or perhaps we might even consider nerfing them a bit?

ETA:

While on the topic, there are a few tricks that would be fun to implement (if these are implemented, then even more awesome -- I know the lore and mdescs suggest that at least two mounts are capable of this, but I don't think it is codedly implemented):

1. A mount type that blends in with the sands -- like certain tents, you would only be able to see it from one room away.
2. A mount type that can climb with you riding it.
3. A mount type that can sneak/hide in line with your sneak/hide skill.

[Riev]

There was a cheap mount available to the Legions in Tuluk, and it was the WORST. You could walk faster that it could run on normal roads.

I like the flavor, but really... there's only so much you can do. Either you're fast, but low stam... or high stamina but can't outrun a thing.

There's some middle ground but its generally worthless. I agree, some mount tweaking could be nice.

[nauta]

True.  Would be cool to have mounts do better in certain terrain -- e.g. beetles on sand, lizards in rocks, etc.

So if I had to tally things to make it clear.

1. Nerf the best mounts in the game (unnamed, but let's call them: Schmorses) so as to be a bit slower and a bit less stamina.
2. Special tricks (climb, hide).
3. Some mounts do better in some terrain than others.

[path]

Special tricks! This would be really fun. I really want a mount that climbs. Terrains make nice sense, also.

[evilcabbage]

beetles are the best in terms of endurance, sure.

they aren't the best in terms of speed. that's left to other animals.

[nauta]

[foobar] are the best in terms of endurance, sure.

they aren't the best in terms of speed. that's left to other animals.

I'd rather people discover which is best inside the game.

But to the point, in my view, there are a couple mounts that are fast enough to avoid most (if not all) NPCs from route A to B (where A and B are on almost opposite sides of the Known) with enough endurance to make the trip a little too easy.

[Delirium]

How about making other mounts worth a damn rather than nerfing the ones people choose out of necessity and practicality.

You weren't around for kanks, I don't think... kanks made beetles look like wussies.

[WarriorPoet]

Make a larger variety of mounts but scale initial price AND the rent-fees accordingly. Ragged old kank that eats little and barely moves? 40 sid to rent. Monstrous war-plated inix that can shoot a bow? 300 coins per stabling.

Who is gathering tons of fodder and feeding these things for months at a time for 20 coins a pop?!

[nauta]

How about making other mounts worth a damn rather than nerfing the ones people choose out of necessity and practicality.

You weren't around for kanks, I don't think... kanks made beetles look like wussies.

I suppose my reasoning for either 'nerfing' them or making them more expensive (and so rare) is this.  You can ride, in walk mode, from one city to the next, with a minimal rest in Luir's, and (almost?) no NPCs will reach you, unless you are unlucky, or go afk, in which case you can flee once, and continue on your way.  Other mounts require you to at least run (and potentially tire) from mobs.

Where they stand now, in terms of price and power, obviates the need to, say, hire an escort, since all you need to do is buy a 450 Schmorse.  It also rewards spam-walking, but that's its own issues.

Making it more expensive would also mean that having such mounts (if left un-nerfed) in your clan, say, would be a benefit of clan membership.  So the Byn and Kurac and Salarr can have a full stable of Schmorses, but joe grebber will just have to make due with a kank (or whatever).

[Delirium]

More expensive stabling fees I'm fine with. I don't know about "minimal rest" - especially on the trip between Allanak and Luir's, that's a rough go. There's also plenty of creatures you can't get away from or have difficulty getting away from in just walk mode. You gotta run, or you're going to be fighting them.

I get that everyone's trying to push everyone into clans these days, but again, you weren't around for the kank days of yore. Kanks you literally could go from Allanak to Tuluk in one go without stopping; the two most popular mounts now were considered the crappy substandard mounts. Our range is already far more limited.

Making it more tedious to travel is only going to do that, make it more tedious to travel. The mounts that get ignored, get ignored for very practical reasons.

Fix the absolute uselessness of those mounts (I can think of one that I consider "not useless" besides the two most popular ones, despite its more limited range/capacity) and you will see people using them. Until then, if you "nerf" the two most popular mounts, that will just make it absolutely irritating to get anything done within a reasonable timeframe that requires being able to travel from point a to point b within a playable amount of time.

[Hauwke]

I think nuata is saying in walk mode while mounted.

[Jihelu]

Make mekillot tamable.

[Kankman]

Make mekillot tamable.

They are. Go try!

[Hauwke]

Its fine, everyone just go club the every loving shit out of it with their HG fists.

And wait for it to wake up and spam: Mount Mekillot.

Also pray to the shit pants god.

[Lizzie]

I agree with Delirium.

Also there's no reason to be secretive about which mounts are faster/have more/less stamina, it's spelled out clearly in the help files. And - your characters show up in the game as adults, you can assume that during the last 14+ years of your character's virtual life, he or she has been exposed to a variety of mounts and has at least heard people mention which ones they prefer and why. It's nothing you should feel the need to "find out IC." your character should already have some general idea.

Kanks were the "gold standard" of mounts, because they could move almost as fast as an erdlu, and last longer than an inix or war beetle. What we have now, is "second best" followed by "mostly useless for anything involving a coded risk."

[path]

Make mekillot tamable.

They are. Go try!

Also salt worms and rocs. Have fun, kids!

[Bahliker]

omg roc

Spoiler alert, best mount in the game. Go get one. Allanak to tuluk in like fifteen seconds.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Tarantulas, dawg.

All joking aside,

It would be cool to have animals that "don't do well in captivity" and have to be bought from the guys who can tame them in the wild.  I'm totally fine with giving those mounts super stats, because at least there's some interaction there. Also plenty of creatures in game that would work for this already, I think.

[Riev]

I would be fine if there was just 'useful' variety. One is high enough in endurance to get from Storm to Morin's without stopping, if just barely. Another can get you from 'nak to Luirs in as much time as it takes to get to the Gaj, but might need to rest on the way. Then have inix as the middling "I can go fast, but not VERY fast, but I don't have to rest as often".


Where the trouble comes in, is with sunlons, and sunbacks. They're cheap, slower than it is to walk, but if you can afford the 300 coins for a Sunback, you can wait a day and afford the 500 for a VASTLY superior beetle.

Now. If sunlons/sunbacks had the ability to hide/sneak with decent success, that'd be the tradeoff.

It would be cool to have animals that "don't do well in captivity" and have to be bought from the guys who can tame them in the wild.  I'm totally fine with giving those mounts super stats, because at least there's some interaction there. Also plenty of creatures in game that would work for this already, I think.

I think it'd be great if you could -only- buy war beetles or erdlus, and in order to get an inix, or an ox, or even a sunback you'd have to find someone capable of taming them. So long as they'd be worth the effort.

[path]

So, a few of the common creatures we already have but with bonuses to certain abilities, revamped m & sdescs, released into the wild to be tamed at your own risk. I think it makes fun sense that the domesticated animals would lose their wilderskills.

And also a rebalance of current beasts. Tall order, really, but I like it.

Delirium: what would you think of a shmeetle nerf if other beasts with differing abilities were added to the outlands?





Pro tip. White ox is leet.

[Delirium]

Inix already have advantages that beetles don't. Beetles are a bit more enduring but not as useful in raw combat/speed.

I'm fine with things as they are for beetles/inix. I'd want to see the other mounts improved so they're actually worth a fart.

[Jihelu]

I want mounts that help you fight in ways that arent:
Charge mount into enemy
It'd be cool

[Feco]

I want mounts that help you fight in ways that arent:
Charge mount into enemy
It'd be cool

This would be a great way to make Erdlu usable, and I think would force people to think in a more situational way. 

[Riev]

mount sunback

use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;use tail;

[Jihelu]

I think it'd be cool if there was some inix like creature that was mega hard to tame, super aggressive, but thankfully super loyal to whoever tames it/raises it as a child (Maybe you can buy a pet item that ages over time idk) and is a general douche to anyone else.
Meaning it has a flag to only be mounted by one person, you, and stuff.
Maybe you'd have to give it a certain herb to even stable it because of how hostile it is, or not be able to at all and have to find other ways to stable it.

But the upside would be whenever you charge/trample you'd get the message (Your whatever lizard raises it claws and joins the fight!) or something.

Would be something master rangers could work on.

[Feco]

I hate to bring these up, but maybe they could function like old wrist razors, just not as lame, and with far less smirking.

Command based attacks would be lame and abused.

[Jihelu]

I hate to bring these up, but maybe they could function like old wrist razors, just not as lame, and with far less smirking.

Or even more smirking

[Riev]

To this day, I love the "feature" that some agro creatures will target your mount first. SO GOOD.

[Bahliker]

Haha! I forgot they made you smirk! I remember my first time. "Emote didn't just smirk, he's very serious looking right now."

Well bred and battle trained war mounts that occasionally added a little bit of cherry to a charge or trample, or as suggested sometimes did a secondary attack on their own, would be so amazewow.

Spitballing: what if it only happened to second or third mobs fighting a rider that the rider is not fighting back? So your schmeetle won't help you solo that horror but it will start kicking like crazy if it gets surrounded?

[Riev]

If it were possible for mounts to grant bonuses to the rider, I'd say some mounts could have +ride... but then OBVIOUSLY min-maxers will want that even at maximum arousa-... ride.

[Bahliker]

I don't see a problem with that. One would think that a universally easy to ride mount wouldn't necessarily be the biggest, sturdiest or meanest. Trade offs and balance yaknow? It's a cool idea. More is better, variety and unique coolness is better. Now I'm wondering, why NOT bring back rocs, aurochs... Why can't another breed of kank from beyond the borders of the known world wander its way in? When we added three or four beetle varieties people ruined their shorts over them and they're not even different animals.

[gotdamnmiracle]

So I'm taking a guess here, but I remember a thread discussing flip weapons. The staff said that flip weapons, when -flipped- are essentially remade into a new weapon entirely, thus shirking off all of damage done to the weapon itself. If I had to guess mounts work the same way with stabling, where every time you turn in a ticket you're getting a completely new NPC mount with new stats and all that junk.

I kinda figured, since you can't call them by their titled name, that the guy at the stables doesn't really care and is just leading the first beetle from the back that marginally looks like yours.

Again, I'm not 100% certain here and this is just a leap from one coded command to another. This is just to cull some idea that become impossible if this is true.

[manipura]

So I'm taking a guess here, but I remember a thread discussing flip weapons. The staff said that flip weapons, when -flipped- are essentially remade into a new weapon entirely, thus shirking off all of damage done to the weapon itself. If I had to guess mounts work the same way with stabling, where every time you turn in a ticket you're getting a completely new NPC mount with new stats and all that junk.

I kinda figured, since you can't call them by their titled name, that the guy at the stables doesn't really care and is just leading the first beetle from the back that marginally looks like yours.

Again, I'm not 100% certain here and this is just a leap from one coded command to another. This is just to cull some idea that become impossible if this is true.

As far a I know, the coded stats of your animal are random every time you hand your ticket in, same as your animal's stats are random when you're a ranger and you log in with your mount.
If it's stats are -noticeably- different my PC usually assumes that the animal was treated like shit in the stable, or it was crammed in with another animal and didn't rest well or something.  But it's still my same mount.
This is most frustrating when you ride your critter to the stable and log out, and then log in again and your mount isn't strong enough to carry you.
Or when you're out rangering and you log back in to a mount that can't carry you and your bags anymore. 

I'm not sure what you mean by you can't call them by their titled name?   

[gotdamnmiracle]

So I'm taking a guess here, but I remember a thread discussing flip weapons. The staff said that flip weapons, when -flipped- are essentially remade into a new weapon entirely, thus shirking off all of damage done to the weapon itself. If I had to guess mounts work the same way with stabling, where every time you turn in a ticket you're getting a completely new NPC mount with new stats and all that junk.

I kinda figured, since you can't call them by their titled name, that the guy at the stables doesn't really care and is just leading the first beetle from the back that marginally looks like yours.

Again, I'm not 100% certain here and this is just a leap from one coded command to another. This is just to cull some idea that become impossible if this is true.

As far a I know, the coded stats of your animal are random every time you hand your ticket in, same as your animal's stats are random when you're a ranger and you log in with your mount.
If it's stats are -noticeably- different my PC usually assumes that the animal was treated like shit in the stable, or it was crammed in with another animal and didn't rest well or something.  But it's still my same mount.
This is most frustrating when you ride your critter to the stable and log out, and then log in again and your mount isn't strong enough to carry you.
Or when you're out rangering and you log back in to a mount that can't carry you and your bags anymore.  

I'm not sure what you mean by you can't call them by their titled name?  

You have to retitle them each time you log in or pull them from stable. But yeah, you have some good RP solutions to those issues.

And back on track, yeah. I don't see any reason for us to do a crazy beast overhaul. It would be welcomed and probably yield some neat results, but I don't doubt staff has other things on their plate. But making it impossible to purchase some mounts that must be captured is up my alley. Although, I will admit, it may require a fair bit of retconnery and yes, a change to beast stats and base skills to make them sought after or even enticing in some situations so there is any kind of market for them beyond the slaughterhouse.

[nauta]

I want to circle this back to one of the topics:

Do you think the best two (or three) mounts are too good right now, at least in terms of how cheap they are?

I think Delirium and I might disagree on the data, and perhaps agility or some stat is taken into account, but I can, on walk mode, ride my mount past everything (common) on the trade route between Allanak and Luir's, Allanak and the Mul Outpost, and Luir's and Tuluk/Morin's (and I don't have to rest between the two main points in each case).  It's not by much -- even a second spent dilldallying and the mobs catch up and attack -- but if you spam walk you can totally glide by.

So granted that data, I still think that such mounts should either get their speed lowered (there are mounts that have high speed and low endurance after all) or get their prices ramped up.  Lowering their endurance -would- make them annoying, however: high endurance mounts for the win.

I totally understand the concern about playability -- try riding a shedya beetle around, hehe -- but at this point I think certain mounts have high endurance and high speed, and should have their speeds docked just enough so they can't walk past mobs.

[Lizzie]

Nauta, if you spam-walk past a templar with barrier on, you can totally glide by execution. If you spam-walk past an assassin who was "watching" in the other direction for you, you can totally glide by assassination. If you spam-walk past any adversary, whether on foot or on a mount, you can totally glide by. I have walked to Red Storm from Luir's, with no special magickal effects, playing a race other than a desert elf, with "walk" not "run," and totally glided by with a beetle immediately to the west/east. This doesn't make walking too easy, it doesn't make assassins and templars suck.

You're basing your opinion on the ability to spam-move. Try NOT spam-moving. Try pausing for your character to think, "Oh this is that section of road where carrus sometimes charge in out off the scrub. I should run past this section instead of walking." and then hit run - and go 4 rooms, then use think to express relief that you didn't see any carrus. Then bring your mount back to walking. RISK your mount being tired out from this experience, before you can get to your destination. If you know where all the gith are, ROLEPLAY being nervous about passing through their territory. Give the game a chance to respond to your proximity to the gith (and anything/anyone else who might be nearby).

If you're spam-moving from point A to point B, then it's not the game or your mount being too easy. It's you not giving the game a chance to provide the risk you are seeking.

The more popular mounts seem to work just fine, when you roleplay your travels. I've experienced no small amount of risk on a mount, I've gotten into plenty of trouble as a result of being mounted, I've lost characters as a result of being mounted. I'd say most of us have. If you haven't, then it's not the mount. It's you.

[Feco]

Do you think the best two (or three) mounts are too good right now, at least in terms of how cheap they are?

No.

[path]

If anything were docked, I think it should be endurance. It's really fun resting a mount in the desert. Fun and full of danger. Mostly dangerous. Love it. I wish even argosies had to stop and make camp half way between settlements.

That said, it might just be best for me to roleplay that when I feel like it instead of being forced into that position by code. For this reason I agree with what Lizzie said, though I think she unintentionally came off a bit aggressively in her response. Nauta is on our side. She's the good guys. She's not the bad guys. I mean, sometimes she's the bad guys and that's good. You know what I'm saying.

Is it okay that players who want to can flow straight through between settlements because the code allows it? I say YES! For the same reasons we have quit OOC. Sometimes you only have so much time for a jolly ride. Sometimes you have to keep the story moving on along. More choices are better. I should find this Vanth quote I like and sig it. Something like, "Let's not penalize the entire playerbase for the mistakes of a few twinks."

Anyway, call me a big baby, but I get too bored of skilling up so the wilds are always danger for me. Super danger. So dangerous...and I don't know my way. I don't know for sure if I could get from Red Storm to Luirs. Eventually, for sure I could...if I didn't die. I'd just go in the general direction. Northishly. What could go wrong?

[Hauwke]

It took me two years to learn Nak to Luirs because I couldnt be bothered. *cough*

[Jihelu]

It took me two years to learn Nak to Luirs because I couldnt be bothered. *cough*

I could walk Tuluk to Luirs and back with my eyes closed.


I've yet to learn Nak to luirs

[gotdamnmiracle]

Do you think the best two (or three) mounts are too good right now, at least in terms of how cheap they are?

Nope.

[evilcabbage]

get your nerf hands away from my beetles ;_;

[nauta]

Hmm, I'm starting a new thread.  A little experiment has revealed that quite a few mounts can just 'walk' away from aggressive mobs.  So, I take back everything I said bad about the top two mounts!  It seems to be a universal issue (whether positive or negative in terms of gameplay, I'm not sure).

[nauta]

So, setting my little thing about 'speed' aside, there are quite a few variables that could create some interesting combinations.  I'm pulling together some ideas from above. (As with any code discussion, this is for discussion -- the time-to-implement is something I have no idea on, and of course the coding staff already have a million things on their plats.  I just have mounts on my mind.)  

The ones with '*' are already implemented.

*1. Speed.  (Even granted the speed issue, there are mobs that are quicker than most mounts, so speed is still a live variable.  Plus you could have races.)

*2. Carrying capacity.  Some mounts can carry more than others.  (I have noticed a strange quirk on some mounts where you can pack if not riding it, but not pack while riding it.)

*3. Endurance/stamina.

*4. Bonuses to trample/charge.  (I'm not sure if this is implemented.)

*4.5. Bonus to resist a trample/change.

5. Special attacks/special smirks.  Apparently, some mounts used to be able to do this.

6. Variable stamina hit depending on terrain.  Some mounts might do better in sand than others, for instance.

7. Variable stamina hit depending on temperature.  Some mounts might do better in the heat than others.

8. Climbing (while mounted/while unmounted).  Some mounts might be better at climbing than others.

9. Milk.  Right now, some mounts are a great resource for campfire materials.  Imagine riding an escru that gave you milk?  Or an erdlu that popped out an egg?

*10. Restore of stamina.  Some mounts might restore stamina quicker than others.

11. Hide/sneak.  Some mounts might sneak better; some might even be able to hide.

It'd be neat to, as a hunter, think: Well, I'm going out to the canyons to hunt quirri, and I'll want a mount that handles that terrain, and is capable of hiding with me to sneak past the carru.  Or: I'm going on a lumber run, so I guess I'll take this mount, since it carries more, even though it is slower.  Etc.

(edit: added Delirium's observations of what was implemented to the list.)

[Delirium]

#4 is implemented (bonuses and negatives). Also ability to withstand being charged/bashed.

[manipura]

I always assume that erdlu that end up as mounts are male, which is why no eggs are happening.  I don't know enough about the mating habits of erdlu to speculate how long it takes for an egg to develop and all that.    But if I had a female erdlu as a mount and it suddenly popped out an egg, I might be wondering when my critter ran off and mated with some other critter  

And aren't escru way too small to consider riding?  Like knee high?  Maybe thigh-high?  

Pretty sure some mounts already do better in certain terrain than others...either because they take more stamina to move (they tire faster) or they take longer to recover.

Edit: To clarify, I don't know any of the actual code behind how mounts perform in different types of terrain.  My thought about this is strictly based on various observations in-game, with different mounts and environments and situations et cetera.

[Jihelu]

I thought Erdlu were plainstriders from WoW

[solera]

Unfeathered  Dire Moa/Strider lvl 20 = wild erdlu.  Especially their emotes.

[LauraMars]

erdlus are the best mounts

[manipura]

erdlus are the best mounts

I had a measly amount of starting coin with one character and I needed a mount.  My only option, after scraping together the basics, was an erdlu.
I bought the thing, hopped on it and rode off.  "At least I managed a mount" I thought to myself "because my whole character concept -without- a mount just...doesn't make sense.  Whew!"

And then I stabled it and logged out.
When I logged back in, the stats my erdlu had weren't enough to support my weight. 
I think I had to log out and in like three times before the stupid thing got a stat roll that allowed it to hold my character's weight.

My OOC dislike of most large birds carries over to the game and erdlu are low on my list of critters I like.

[nessalin]

What is meant by special smirks?

[Synthesis]

What is meant by special smirks?

When someone dodged your wrist-razor attack back in the day, you'd see something like "soandso smirks as he sidesteps your slice."

[nauta]

Code Select Expand


A brown carru stalks back a few steps and ferociously charges towards a war beetle.
A brown carru slams into a war beetle but is sent sprawling.
A war beetle rears back as it is slammed by a brown carru, throwing you off!
A war beetle smirks, then cleans its antennae.
A war beetle says in beetlish-accented sirihish:
   "That's what I thought."


[perfecto]

To this day, I love the "feature" that some agro creatures will target your mount first. SO GOOD.

I can only think of 1 set of creatures who do this in 1 spot in the game world.  I wish it was far more common, or at least the chance for it happening was.

[Synthesis]

To this day, I love the "feature" that some agro creatures will target your mount first. SO GOOD.

I can only think of 1 set of creatures who do this in 1 spot in the game world.  I wish it was far more common, or at least the chance for it happening was.

The reason they don't is that war beetles and inix are vicious as hell.

If common aggro critters aggro'ed on your mount, your mount would utterly fucking destroy them.  The obvious play, then, would be to -intentionally- get your mount aggro'ed on by things you'd have difficulty killing yourself.  Also, warriors and rangers both branch very useful stuff from 'rescue,' so that provides another huge incentive to try to get your mount attacked.

[gotdamnmiracle]

To this day, I love the "feature" that some agro creatures will target your mount first. SO GOOD.

I can only think of 1 set of creatures who do this in 1 spot in the game world.  I wish it was far more common, or at least the chance for it happening was.

The reason they don't is that war beetles and inix are vicious as hell.

If common aggro critters aggro'ed on your mount, your mount would utterly fucking destroy them.  The obvious play, then, would be to -intentionally- get your mount aggro'ed on by things you'd have difficulty killing yourself.  Also, warriors and rangers both branch very useful stuff from 'rescue,' so that provides another huge incentive to try to get your mount attacked.

It seems like it would make sense for creatures who wouldn't give a shit at all though, like your mekillots, ankhegs, saltworms, and maybe even some kryl variants. If both you and your Inix are snack status it only makes sense it'd be an even toss up.

[zztri]

What is meant by special smirks?

When someone dodged your wrist-razor attack back in the day, you'd see something like "soandso smirks as he sidesteps your slice."

I can't resist the urge to ask.. What's the successful rescue echo? Does it end with "Banzai!"?

[Synthesis]

A long time ago, if I recall correctly, it was "You charge into the fight.  Banzai!"  I may be thinking of another MUD, though.

Currently, the rescuer sees "You charge into the fight!"

For the rescued, it's something like "so-and-so darts in front of you and knocks you out of the way!"

[zztri]

A long time ago, if I recall correctly, it was "You charge into the fight.  Banzai!"  I may be thinking of another MUD, though.

Currently, the rescuer sees "You charge into the fight!"

For the rescued, it's something like "so-and-so darts in front of you and knocks you out of the way!"

It may be any MUD starting off from stock Diku code..