Jobs of Zalanthas - aka things you spam for coins

[Ath]

Thanks for the feedback guys and gals , it's greatly appreciated.  I like the idea of changing up where deposits spawns for mining, that is an interesting concept... it's also kinda how things work a bit on the Salt.  Tools... I think tools could be of interest also, espeicaly with salt deposits.  Very good feedback here.

So we know of some things we need to really look at.

So I want to go into this chit system idea that came up, I'll be honest, I like the sound of it.  So I already can see that people want to be able to get coins, but I'm thinking it shouldn't be the main value.  Water can definitely be on there and maybe food.  Do you guys have any idea what else could be handed out with this chit system?  Lets look at both Red Storm and Allanak if something like this was offered.  Maybe you can get an upgrade spice sifter in Red Storm, while Allanak could have some better tools you can trade chits in for.  So maybe you work hard at this "job" of yours, you can find yourself "upgrading" things.  What do you think of these chits being an actual objects?  So maybe they can be stolen, or sold even... though I doubt many would sell them because we'd have a low amount of what they'd be offered for at NPC that took them.

Once again, this is all conceptual and may never see the light of day... but I really do enjoy chatting about it.

[Kankman]

First off I just want to say that the poop code is the best thing that ever happened in Armageddon and the person who thought it up was clearly a genius.

Now to the important, nitty gritty.

The Allanaki Chit for Shit program has the potential to be a game changer of monumental proportion.

Now, let's not get bogged down in the minutiae of whether we should call it Chit for Shit, or Shit for Chit. The basics are clear: hand in shit, get a chit. Piggy-backing off of the wildly popular purple palmful for token code, and keeping in mind that some genius thought of making those soapstone coins flippable, shit-chits, as they will colloquially become known, should be exchanged right there at the dung-buyer for such fantastic items as:

1) a pair of big, waxed-cotton overboots - boots to slip on over your boots while you're wading in feces
2) a pair of big, waxed-cotton gloves - gloves to keep the shit-smellin' off your hands
3) a big, wide-bladed shit shovel - a shovel with +7 SP (Shit Points, of course)
3) a big, wide-bladed shit shovel with a smooth handle - a shovel with +7 SP and -3 BC (Blister Chances)

This whole operation could go down one of two ways.

Either the Supreme Overbeing of Allanak pulls the Big Government move of centralizing everything in a terribly inefficient act of socialism and we've got a Central Dispersal Office where shit-chit wielding Citizens line up like they were hoping for a loaf of bread, while the Commissar of Dispensary slowly tallies shit-chits and hands out the daily compensations, or...

The Entrepreneurial Extravaganza of shit-chits only being cashed in with the dung-buyer. The clay-coins only being good for the clay-buyers, etc.

Miners could pass in their sid-bits for water, sure, the Highlord MAKES water in Allanak. But they rest? Water is just as valuable to a dung-buyer as it is to a dung-grebber. Giving that stuff away is crazy! And what does the Highlord care that you've picked up some dung? Does he really care enough to give you water? Is it really such a civil service? No! Go die in the sands!

And thus, my confusing vote for shit-chit entrepreneurial extravaganza has been cast.

[flurry]

I love the idea of certain jobs allowing you to earn items that fit that occupation. Also I really like the concept of having options of how to use the chits/credits you earn. The NPC with the cleaning fluid comes to mind, because (if I remember correctly) there's no incentive to go through that more than once.

[Lizzie]

Thanks for the feedback guys and gals , it's greatly appreciated.  I like the idea of changing up where deposits spawns for mining, that is an interesting concept... it's also kinda how things work a bit on the Salt.  Tools... I think tools could be of interest also, espeicaly with salt deposits.  Very good feedback here.

So we know of some things we need to really look at.

So I want to go into this chit system idea that came up, I'll be honest, I like the sound of it.  So I already can see that people want to be able to get coins, but I'm thinking it shouldn't be the main value.  Water can definitely be on there and maybe food.  Do you guys have any idea what else could be handed out with this chit system?  Lets look at both Red Storm and Allanak if something like this was offered.  Maybe you can get an upgrade spice sifter in Red Storm, while Allanak could have some better tools you can trade chits in for.  So maybe you work hard at this "job" of yours, you can find yourself "upgrading" things.  What do you think of these chits being an actual objects?  So maybe they can be stolen, or sold even... though I doubt many would sell them because we'd have a low amount of what they'd be offered for at NPC that took them.

Once again, this is all conceptual and may never see the light of day... but I really do enjoy chatting about it.

I disagree that coins shouldn't be the main value. That would just be a way of driving all the independents into clans. All you need to get free food and water in a clan, is to be hired. If you're hired into a hunting crew, after the first year, you get free food and water, plus you get paid, plus if you have a day off you could go mining for extra spending money. THAT, to me, is the point. The chit idea was intended to be to make it easier for grebbers who greb for sids, to not have to pour those sids right back into food and water.

[The Warshaper]

Chit man... this could really help out new players.

If chits are given out to folks who salt, mine, pick cotton, gather clay ect it could really be an opportunity to let newer players start off as independents and eventually ease into a clanned job. Food and water would be great, as a newer player myself that was always the real struggle due to lacking any in game knowledge. A new player can learn the process of gathering then also manage to support themselves with food and water so they don't feel pressured into a clanned role they may not had in mind.  I had to spend every moment online gathering with my character gathering which they were apparently terrible at, just to not die of hunger and thirst. That was tedious and if I wasn't an RPI survival nut probably would've turned me off to Arm.

We have to remember it's a very different experience for a newer player before scoffing at such issues. If done correctly roughly a days worth of rations from a days worth of work would suffice. The coin generated from selling could go into equipment which for the most part would help with longevity and a sense of investment/ownership.  Being very good at your job could net you more chits that could be used towards tools optionally once you're not worrying where your next sip of water is going to come from.  (I really like the tools idea.)

Offering my two cents, make the chits universal. This promotes player to player cooperation/conflict. Example I mine deposits and turn them in for chits but I know this guy who salts and needs a good shovel that he would trade to me for sids or goods that we haggle the value over. Or I have been watching who's coming and going for some time from the labor office and know Bob the miner has a fat sack of chits on him that I could use to get a meal or water with, or maybe some tools that seem to be very popular with certain folks to sell.

Shops could offer their own rewards for chits, conversely I think the smarter and easier way to go about it is to station a blue robe in a building who trades specifically in chit rewards. Someone mentioned gith scalps for chits? Hells yeah. Throw a few weapons and armor pieces up there. Think along the lines of "Better than what the player started with, but not so amazeballs they still won't want to trade with the Merchant Houses for what would be offered at the chit office.

If chits are rewarded base on quantity brought in on top of coin then this would seriously support the independent/new playerbase. We may also see alot less storing of characters who took on entry level jobs they just will never enjoy.


/Derail
I'm worried some may see this as softcore but hey, we've been hollering and screaming for folks to vote and barely hanging in the top 10? Go Vote ya Dirty Bastids
/End Derail

High end tools could take RL months saving for, I'm not sure how these tools would be effect the game economy but I've not yet met a PC tool merchant. Anyways I'm rambling now.

[Lizzie]

No one's scoffing at the idea of chits, so far as I can tell. What I'm concerned with is the idea that *replacing* coin for chits that can only be used to trade for specific commissary items is a bad idea. Why? Because it rewards ONLY new, unclanned characters. It says "this job is ONLY for new folks. People who've been around awhile, or who want to maybe buy a drink at the Gaj, or buy a new weapon at the Salarr shop, or buy spice in Red Storm, or a nifty tribal bracelet in Luirs, or are already in clans that give them free food and water won't gain anything from it, so don't bother."

[The Warshaper]

If chits are rewarded base on quantity brought in on top of coin then this would seriously support the independent/new playerbase. We may also see alot less storing of characters who took on entry level jobs they just will never enjoy.

Just... read the entire post Lizzie.

Also, no one is scoffing at the idea of chits, I was making mention of newer players struggling to support themselves by buying food and water. No idea where you got that from.

[Lizzie]

We have to remember it's a very different experience for a newer player before scoffing at such issues.

I got it from there. I did read the whole post. I agree with you. I'm emphasizing that I don't think any of these new-player experiences that inspire the idea of using chits are being scoffed at. I was actually wondering where you got the idea from

[Kankman]

If chits are universal then we're just adding another currency and they make themselves redundant. Why not just exchange coins?

[Lizzie]

If chits are universal then we're just adding another currency and they make themselves redundant. Why not just exchange coins?

Another reason to not make it universal and instead, provide just a bonus on top of the usual sids, so that they don't have to turn around and spend the sids on the things that the bonuses provide (which are survival necessities - food/water - and/or a cup of ale at the local bar).

[Ath]

The idea behind Jobs are not permanent things to do.  None of them make as much as doing other things like joining a clan, become an indie group, hunting with people and selling your goods, or being a crafter and selling your good also.  The Jobs are a good way to get by in the beginning, low risk, low reward.  Salt for example was used prior to make a living, I specifically remember playing with people that would go out as a group and make a large or more easy doing it, that's been changed.  It's still possible, but it would require a group to go do so and there is much more risk involved.  Risk vs Reward, that is the main balancing factor.

What we're talking about here is a way for one to get something for what they do, without just coins being the main focus.  You still get coins, but you also get other things that can be useful to someone getting their start.  Maybe a bow, a shovel, tools, arrows.. there are several potentials here.  Yes, joining a Clan can be the easy way out to get food and water, but remove that factor at the moment, that isn't the focus here.  Clans will always be the easy way, but not everyone wants the easy way.  Secondarily a new player will get things a bit easier also.

If chits are universal then we're just adding another currency and they make themselves redundant. Why not just exchange coins?

The idea we're talking about is that the jobs will pay out in chits that will give rewards that you can choose from.  Putting emphasis less on coins, but more on things that a character may need.  You will still get coins, but not as much as you would before.  You could still likely get a lot of coins I'm thinking, but it would take a bit more work than before.  Once again, this is all concept, idea, and discussion.

[Lizzie]

The idea behind Jobs are not permanent things to do.  None of them make as much as doing other things like joining a clan, become an indie group, hunting with people and selling your goods, or being a crafter and selling your good also.  The Jobs are a good way to get by in the beginning, low risk, low reward.  Salt for example was used prior to make a living, I specifically remember playing with people that would go out as a group and make a large or more easy doing it, that's been changed.  It's still possible, but it would require a group to go do so and there is much more risk involved.  Risk vs Reward, that is the main balancing factor.

What we're talking about here is a way for one to get something for what they do, without just coins being the main focus.  You still get coins, but you also get other things that can be useful to someone getting their start.  Maybe a bow, a shovel, tools, arrows.. there are several potentials here.  Yes, joining a Clan can be the easy way out to get food and water, but remove that factor at the moment, that isn't the focus here.  Clans will always be the easy way, but not everyone wants the easy way.  Secondarily a new player will get things a bit easier also.

If chits are universal then we're just adding another currency and they make themselves redundant. Why not just exchange coins?

The idea we're talking about is that the jobs will pay out in chits that will give rewards that you can choose from.  Putting emphasis less on coins, but more on things that a character may need.  You will still get coins, but not as much as you would before.  You could still likely get a lot of coins I'm thinking, but it would take a bit more work than before.  Once again, this is all concept, idea, and discussion.

The problem with this though Ath, is that "Jobs" are not within the exclusive domain of singular unclanned new characters. Clanned characters also have need of the raw materials provided by "Jobs." And so - a GMH merchant might send his hunters to greb for obsidian. Salarr makes copious use of obsidian, so does Kadius. Clay has a lot of recipes now that all three GMHs would find useful (clay spice pipes, anyone?). Not sure about salt, though one could say that all three GMHs need cleaning fluid, and you need salt for that. I suppose the GMH clan boss could order their employees to trade their chits in for arrows for their hunters. Clan sends their crew to collect 3 bags of purple salts. Crew collects that, plus five bags of other varieties of salt. Crew boss says "use the sids to buy yourselves a few joints in Red Storm." Crew members say "uh - they want to give us fifty sids and twenty arrows." Now what?


Of what use are chits to these characters, if they already have the "things" they need provided to them by their clans? What about clanned non-GMH characters - they also get everything they need from their employers - but sometimes their employers need to acquire some of these "jobs" things. There's always something left over when you greb for a clan, and telling them "fifty sids and your choice of a few arrows, or a waterskin, or a rope" isn't going to cut it. Better to say "Two hundred sids, which is what your grebbed product is actually worth, and here - have a delicious travel cake and a sip of water on the house." And let the new characters BUY what they need - giving them reason to learn their way around the shops.

[Armaddict]

I'm a little confused by the chit thing.

Salting causes a lot of thirst.  If every time you turned in a bundle worth more than <this> value, they refilled your waterskin, that would be good.  But if every time you did they gave you this other kind of currency that could be redeemed for sensible things for the profession, but not for these others...I think that might be overdoing it a little.  Multiple currencies may sound neato, but ultimately...I'd argue that's way -more- confusing for a newer type person, not easier.  While it's a neat workaround, I can't say I'm really that into it as it's been presented thusfar.  It seems like a very contrived system that wouldn't have really come about on its own, at least not without some loose guild of independent-trading running the thing (which we'd know from IC experiences just wouldn't be allowed by the GMH's).  Why -wouldn't- they just pay in coins?  End Addict essay so that I don't need a tl;dr.

Edit:  Basically, neat 'flavor' idea, but I don't see it fitting with 'how things are', nor really doing much other than adding something that establishes the same sort of relationship anyway.  Most people already use their coins for these things.  If I misunderstood the premise of the chit system, then whoops, but it really does just seem like something being thrown in with little gain.  If we're willing to take the time to script and build for all of this, then we've got time to script and build some other things that would likely do more.

[Riev]

Honestly I'd be fine with there being some sort of "job center" area where all the jobs tend to turn in their stuff at once. Emporium style.

Then just had the salt-giving coin system but for minute things like food or full waterskins.

I'd murder someone over a few black soapstone coins.

[Ath]

Alright, it seems there is some confusion here... the idea we've been talking about is Coins OR Items, with an emphasis on Items rather than Coins.  Coins will still be available, it won't be a mixture of both.  I get the concern and it makes complete sense, but the Job side of the whole system isn't supposed to be a primary way someone makes coins, it's suppose to enhance the many other things that have value with PC to PC interaction.  We'd never change it so that PCs couldn't go get items they need for crafting inside or outside a clan, I don't even see how that even got brought up here.  So a lot is being taken out of context when it comes to the explanation and it is starting to get a bit wild in assumptions, so I am going to change the topic now.

What are other things that PCs can do on their own to make a few coins around Allanak?  We know of the basic, automated methods, but are there things that can make a few coins for a new, solo PC?  What could be improved with those methods?  Once again, if it is some sort of secret-ish topic, I'd rather it not be brought up here.  If it is something very exploitable, please send in a request on that so it can be reviewed.  What I am looking for is more so other simple things that PCs can do as a "Job" to make a few coins for their starting PC.  Doesn't matter if it's a newb or not.

[valeria]

It would be nice if someone could get coins, maybe 1 coin per, for picking up empty mugs around the bars and returning them to the barkeepers.  It would result in a very small amount of sid and get the clutter of mugs, etc, off the bars.

[Lizzie]

It would be nice if someone could get coins, maybe 1 coin per, for picking up empty mugs around the bars and returning them to the barkeepers.  It would result in a very small amount of sid and get the clutter of mugs, etc, off the bars.

That'd be awesome, *except* during those times when the bar is full and lots of screen scroll is already going on. Most players know to hold up on the bar-clearing activities til the RP slows down. Some don't know, or know, but don't really understand that spam-cleaning is just as annoying to watch during "a scene" as spam-getting-20-feathers-from-your-bag-filled-with-stuff and giving them to the guy buying them. The guy with the feathers -could- just go to another room and do the spamming where there's not a "scene" occurring in the bar. But the guy clearing the bar -in- the bar - can't do that.

I'm all for making a coin or two by cleaning up, and I'm fine with spam, as long as I'm not trying to pay attention to something other than the spam

[Riev]

What if, similar to poop code/deposit spawns, there were like... "a small/moderate/large pile of dirt and refuse" items that could grow around the city. Put in a need for actual street sweepers to come in with a broom? I know currently there's no way to make that into coin, but its an idea. Tell a new PC they're the new Streetsweeper for all of Dragon's Path and Wall Road, and they have to check it once in a while.

Then if it gets to a large pile of refuse on the side of Wall Road, you know who isn't doing their job?

[Ath]

What if, similar to poop code/deposit spawns, there were like... "a small/moderate/large pile of dirt and refuse" items that could grow around the city. Put in a need for actual street sweepers to come in with a broom? I know currently there's no way to make that into coin, but its an idea. Tell a new PC they're the new Streetsweeper for all of Dragon's Path and Wall Road, and they have to check it once in a while.

Then if it gets to a large pile of refuse on the side of Wall Road, you know who isn't doing their job?

Well, honestly... for a RP action like that, any Leadership role could probably pull something like that off.  I remember back in the day there was a certain Templar that made a group called the street sweepers to keep Tuluk clean, it was an interesting RP tool to be honest, and the PCs got paid for it.

I do like the idea of putting in a few other simple automated tasks, but I'd rather look at systems that can be improved upon at the current.  Are there ways people make a bit of cash when they start out their new character outside the automated tasks?  Maybe just selling stuff to NPC merchants?  How about this, is the current documentation on Jobs written well?  Do they explain it properly?

[evilcabbage]

make a chit system similar to deposits in nenyuk, only you go to a npc salesperson or whatever, and "deposit" your chits - and you get points. so the person goes deposit 12 chit

npcs says, in sirihish,
     "You now have twelve points."

list

For sale at NPC merchant:
A long-handled, tipped shovel for 5 points.
A dark-orange, hooded cloak for 10 points.
A meal ticket for 12 points.
A water ticket for 15 points.


things like that. the meal ticket can be exchanged at the same vendor with "exchange ticket" for a full meal. that is one or two pieces of a relatively filling meal, and a *small* flask of water. or a water ticket which provides a skin of water.

and each chit also exchanges out for 2 or 3 coins. how does that sound?

[gotdamnmiracle]

I always figured there would be more rock breakers. I mean, I suppose this is already filled by slaves IG, but I can easily see a job where you use the forage code and make big rocks into little rocks before turning them in for minor stipends.

A chunk of my characters would just stone greb and, yeah, sell garnets and amethysts to the stonecarver NPCs. This is performed like right outside of the maingate. By this point that area must be so clean picked its either a comically huge divet or something something spontaneous generation.

Edit: The above post sounds like a pretty decent system.

[valeria]

It would be nice if someone could get coins, maybe 1 coin per, for picking up empty mugs around the bars and returning them to the barkeepers.  It would result in a very small amount of sid and get the clutter of mugs, etc, off the bars.

That'd be awesome, *except* during those times when the bar is full and lots of screen scroll is already going on. Most players know to hold up on the bar-clearing activities til the RP slows down. Some don't know, or know, but don't really understand that spam-cleaning is just as annoying to watch during "a scene" as spam-getting-20-feathers-from-your-bag-filled-with-stuff and giving them to the guy buying them. The guy with the feathers -could- just go to another room and do the spamming where there's not a "scene" occurring in the bar. But the guy clearing the bar -in- the bar - can't do that.

I'm all for making a coin or two by cleaning up, and I'm fine with spam, as long as I'm not trying to pay attention to something other than the spam

Just so we're clear, I absolutely wouldn't want the return place to be IN the bar itself. Both lower-end bars have kitchen-esque areas that are less busy.

I know you're talking about picking the mugs up, too, but I think any annoyance there could be handled through RP.

[path]

Automated Jobs VS Twinking
I wish all the automated jobs were fun. Part of that means getting a meaningful payout for them and I know that would leave it open to people who are going to twink it out and get rich doing something menial. We don't want to see all these salt grebbers dressed in sparkle armor.

I propose we make another addition to the karma acquisition list that went something like, Compelling Portrayal of Poverty. This would encourage players to get down and dirty and reenforce poverty as a game wide theme by rewarding good role play! YES!

We should not design the game to prevent unrealistic roleplay. We should design it with fun in mind. I dug clay once. Never again, my friends. If I were a newb, many of these jobs would be a fast way to turn me off the game forever, especially if they become any more difficult, less lucrative, time consuming and spammy. I think all jobs should be playtested by experienced staff or players and anything currently boring should be made easier or have extra echos and interaction added in. This discussion is good but nothing beats a straight forward conversation in realtime.

Finally, I think it's cool to be able to play a career menial laborer. Not just use them to get a foot up.

Alternate Compensation
I love the idea of anything that makes playing a newbie simpler and more intuitive, so a waterskin as a bonus to a full salt sack or sifter or clay bucket would be really cool. Long have I wanted water to be a form of payment.

Secondary Jobs
I love valeria's idea about the mugs.

It would be fun if you could sell rat corpses by the firepit in the Gaj.

What if you could help in the kitchen areas in those taverns.. Your ldesc would change. There would be a series of alternating echos or interaction from a cook NPC in there with you, or a talk script, or both. You wouldn't be able to Way or use other skills besides speak and emote while you were cooking. It would take say...five minutes and you'd make fifteen coin and a sack of flour.

I mentioned pulling rags off corpses in the rinth. This is high on my list of currently available fun jobs.

Has anyone else noticed that the crafting values are wonky? I pay this much for a ruby, craft it with some ivory I bought into a ring that ends up being work less than the original uncrafted ruby, nevermind the ivory and labor. This happens even when I use barter. It ends up being that there are one or two good crafts per material where my PC can make a buck. I wish all of them were at least a little lucrative.

[nauta]

Inspired by Path's post (and the chitin idea):

Perhaps you could have the vendors that purchase items from automated tasks (glass/obsidian templar, Jal shit guy, Salt guy, rinth clothing gal) offer you some very basic things rather than coins:

o Simple food.
o Torch.
o Water.
o Ale.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Don't forget tools. As it stands the only way to get a shovel in Allanak is to buy it from the beginner shop or luck out that someone sold one off at some point. Which might also be a reason for so few salters.