PLEASE PARTICIPATE: Plot Satisfaction Survey

[Reiloth]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

It also seems (correct me if i'm wrong) that non-com plots will have a lot more Staff attention as to the outcome -- So while you may be able to pick between a few options, there are virtual entities who will also be interested in going one way or the other. In combat RPTs, you can basically show up and have fun, and it's all within the box of the 'screen' so to speak. With non-com plots, it tends to lead to a lot of back and forth, request tool, and plotting IG, which can as you say lead to less fruition, or less likelihood of 'success' in that respect.

I enjoy a good non-com plot, and I miss Tuluk for its abundance of them. But -- I can see how they are sticky pickles.

[Taven]

It also seems (correct me if i'm wrong) that non-com plots will have a lot more Staff attention as to the outcome -- So while you may be able to pick between a few options, there are virtual entities who will also be interested in going one way or the other. In combat RPTs, you can basically show up and have fun, and it's all within the box of the 'screen' so to speak. With non-com plots, it tends to lead to a lot of back and forth, request tool, and plotting IG, which can as you say lead to less fruition, or less likelihood of 'success' in that respect.

I enjoy a good non-com plot, and I miss Tuluk for its abundance of them. But -- I can see how they are sticky pickles.

While certainly combat plots can require a lot of staff involvement (making rooms, animating nasties, creating mobs), I'd still agree with your assessment that non-com plots need more staff support. I'm not even sure it's necessarily more, exactly, so much as it is a timing thing.

Let's say you're trying to negotiate some sort of treaty or political whatever. The process typically goes like this:

1. Proposing the idea to staff
2. Proposing the idea to the relevant PC
3. The relevant PC proposing the idea to their staff, with their view/hopes on it
4. The relevant idea proposing their moifications on the idea to you, after running it past staff
5. Negotiations between PCs (possibly with many pauses for proposals to staff, and questions about the virtual world)
6. Possible success, provided nothing unexpected happens (otherwise you will need to repeat some steps, assuming the plot is still viable)

If your staff is amazing and on top of everything and answers quickly, you can still be delayed by the other PC not being reliable--and that is assuming they actually want to pursue the plot and aren't intentionally stringing you along. Often times there's no way to tell where the hold up is, if staff is slow or if a PC is the issue.

Of course, treaty/political non-comm plots are not the only type of non-comm plots, but it's an example of how response and time-heavy a non-comm plot can be.

[BadSkeelz]

I think it's also fair to say that non-combat plots are somewhat more susceptible to Sudden Participant Death Syndrome.. Combat plots often have redundant leaders from multiple clans involved, and can carry on if a single fighter or even a leader gets unexpectantly sidelined. But a non-combat plot requires all the actors to stay alive through to the end, as there rarely seems to be any sort of organization redundancy.

[Taven]

I think it's also fair to say that non-combat plots are somewhat more susceptible to Sudden Participant Death Syndrome.. Combat plots often have redundant leaders from multiple clans involved, and can carry on if a single fighter or even a leader gets unexpectantly sidelined. But a non-combat plot requires all the actors to stay alive through to the end, as there rarely seems to be any sort of organization redundancy.

Or more often: Sudden Participant AWOL Syndrome.

Typically there's some factors in non-com plots that are potential issues with both the (usually singular) PC you're working with and staff: Their playtimes versus yours, if they get unexpectedly busy, if they die (in the case of a PC), and their reliability in general.

These can also all be issues with combat clans, especially coordinating a good RPT time, but typically there's a little more wiggle room and redundancy. Most large combat clans have multiple top leaders (Sarges) or a secondary leader option (First Trooper, Corporal, or Regular). A First Trooper might be given leeway to take a combat clan out if strictly necessary, but odds are a lot less that a secondary non-comm is available or empowered to finish the deal.

[valeria]

The perception that all plots are combat plots or political plots really frustrates me.  In the last few years, all of the plots I've participated in have had a healthy dose of both, if not been solely political.  And I do mean HRPT-level stuff.  Tyn Dashra ended with a big combat bang, but it was hugely political in the leadup.  And everything that happened in Allanak 1.5 - 2 years ago was also massively political, though again, there was some combat toward the end.

[Reiloth]

The perception that all plots are combat plots or political plots really frustrates me.  In the last few years, all of the plots I've participated in have had a healthy dose of both, if not been solely political.  And I do mean HRPT-level stuff.  Tyn Dashra ended with a big combat bang, but it was hugely political in the leadup.  And everything that happened in Allanak 1.5 - 2 years ago was also massively political, though again, there was some combat toward the end.

Yeah. I think people tend to whitewash events and remember the flashy stuff that's most easily perceived. The Copper Wars had a ton of political dealings, but most of it was behind the scenes, so the only people who remember that were involved with that. The other 70% will only remember the combat forays.

[Taven]

The perception that all plots are combat plots or political plots really frustrates me.  In the last few years, all of the plots I've participated in have had a healthy dose of both, if not been solely political.  And I do mean HRPT-level stuff.  Tyn Dashra ended with a big combat bang, but it was hugely political in the leadup.  And everything that happened in Allanak 1.5 - 2 years ago was also massively political, though again, there was some combat toward the end.

Yeah. I think people tend to whitewash events and remember the flashy stuff that's most easily perceived. The Copper Wars had a ton of political dealings, but most of it was behind the scenes, so the only people who remember that were involved with that. The other 70% will only remember the combat forays.

I think part of this is also what can be talked about, what gets recorded, and what is remembered.

Typically, combat PCs have much shorter lives, so it's easier to talk about something sooner. Types of PCs that are involved in non-combat plots can live a lot longer.

Even when they die, some of the negotiations or impacts may be secret. While they're alive, they're also less likely to brag about specifics to other PCs, while conversely while a combat PC is alive, they'll usually brag more or even have songs about it.

Ultimately, I think because the (as you put it) "flashy stuff" is what players see more of, that tends to be what players remember. Typically non-com plots involve less people (depending on type, of course).

[Taven]

For those of you who are curious, we have 46 answers to the poll so far, FYI.

[Dresan]

The vast majority of roles in the game are not political in nature though. These days its played by even less people, nobles and templars being the majority, with some of the leaders in the clans being the minority. With exception of the aides that are often involved, most of these roles which are sponsored are supposed to be there to help make the game fun for everyone ELSE.

I know they are trying to change this slightly but the vast disconnect between the nobility/upper crust and commoners is really unfortunate. This should have lead to an uprising, it did in tuluk,  instead we have stagnation. Ultimately what commoners do or think has no effect on the upper crust. This mean that both side are in their own worlds, where the other side might as well be virtual and played by staff from time to time.  WHAT noble bob did A,B,C,X,Y,Z? Outrageous!...oh wait, it doesn't matter at all, to them ,their house, because who cares what the general population think of them. What fun.

Back on topic though.

I like plots big or small, where anyone can get involved, the objectives are clear, and the consequences for success or failure are on the table for all to see. Where politics, cloak and dagger, and betrayals are are just people being people doing what they can to  try to take advantage and profit due to circumstances around the plot.  The copper war was pretty solid in this regard. It might not have had earth shattering consequences but it was sure fun.

That said, I do enjoy earth shattering consequences in HRPTs since it effects how we continue to play the game in between plots, mostly because this keeps the game from becoming feel stale itself.  

[Taven]

The vast majority of roles in the game are not political in nature though. These days its played by even less people, nobles and templars being the majority, with some of the leaders in the clans being the minority. With exception of the aides that are often involved, most of these roles which are sponsored are supposed to be there to help make the game fun for everyone ELSE.

I know they are trying to change this slightly but the vast disconnect between the nobility/upper crust and commoners is really unfortunate. This should have lead to an uprising, it did in tuluk,  instead we have stagnation. Ultimately what commoners do or think has no effect on the upper crust. This mean that both side are in their own worlds, where the other side might as well be virtual and played by staff from time to time.  WHAT noble bob did A,B,C,X,Y,Z? Outrageous!...oh wait, it doesn't matter at all, to them ,their house, because who cares what the general population think of them. What fun.

The way the game is set up is really designed for a trickle-down effect. Basically, you have your Leader PCs, who are in a prime position to either start plots or have a House reaction to them. The idea is that they will then involve other clans/groups which could be beneficial to their ends. This is probably most successful with combat plots. You have your initial goal, the leader PCs figure out what they want, and then various groups are included to pursue it.

It doesn't have as big of an impact on non-comm plots, although certainly there could be an impact there. The impact just tends to be less revealing. I guess apart from political negotiation plots, one of the primary impacts of plots that comes to mind for non-comms is the "make this" plot. This can relate to eventually combat plots (we need this specially-designed gear or weapon) or it can relate to entertainment plots (make me this statue that's in theme with my party). But that trickle down, while good for the clans in question (namely GMH in this example), isn't necessarily a full plot. For the crafters involved, it's more of just an order. Now, it certainly could become more, either from the requester or the crafter's approach, or the needed materials, but that does not happen too frequently, from what I have seen.

Back on topic though.

I like plots big or small, where anyone can get involved, the objectives are clear, and the consequences for success or failure are on the table for all to see. Where politics, cloak and dagger, and betrayals are are just people being people doing what they can to  try to take advantage and profit due to circumstances around the plot.  The copper war was pretty solid in this regard. It might not have had earth shattering consequences but it was sure fun.

That said, I do enjoy earth shattering consequences in HRPTs since it effects how we continue to play the game in between plots, mostly because this keeps the game from becoming feel stale itself.

I think the really huge plots (Copper War in your example) are initially staff-driven, because PCs have trouble initiating things at that sort of level. Simply speaking, withing the virtual world, they just don't have the rank. However, I agree that once a major plot like that gets started, it does have a lot of potential impacts for others. The latest Allanaki-Tuluki conflict (I struggle to call it a proper war) was like this. PCs were given power to move things in a direction that they wanted, but they had to work together to do so, or foil each other. This generated both cross-city plots as well as internal city plots. Your political rival may have a good idea, but do you want it to succeed? It could reduce your own standing. Can you steal the idea? Can you make people think the idea is yours? Do you have a better idea? The combat side of war always has its own problems, but politically, there's a lot of neat options.

I think that Tuluk's closure was supposed to make the internal Allanaki RP a lot more robust, and designed to see a lot more inner-city plots going on, within a small space. While in theory it sounds great, I'm not sure the reality went as intended, although I've previously been more optimistic at the possibilities. I agree with what others have said, which is that Allanak is basically an unequaled and unchallenged entity. Apart from internal divisions, I'm not sure there's a larger arena for 'Nak to play in anymore.

[Taven]

FYI, we are at 51 responses to the survey now. Awesome!

If you haven't participated yet, you have until the end of the week to get your vote in.

[Taven]

I'm going to keep bumping this, every day, until the end of the week when the poll closes.

We're at 53 responses. If there's any stragglers out there, come on and vote!

[Taven]

We're at a full 60 responses! Thanks to everyone who has participated thus far, but with a particular thanks to those of you that took the time to add comments. The comments are great to read, from how you feel about plots, to insights on if the survey is doing what it should.

If you haven't voted yet, vote! You have until sometime this Friday, when I will be closing the poll.

[boog]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

These are superbly locale and clan specific RPTs and aren't good examples of everyone being allowed into the non-combative fray.

[Reiloth]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

These are superbly locale and clan specific RPTs and aren't good examples of everyone being allowed into the non-combative fray.

But boog, every plot or series of plots could be considered local and clan specific. If it's happening in Allanak, it probably won't affect the Tablelands and the sundry tribes there. It may, it may not, depends what the content is. Same goes for a plot in the Tablelands, or Luir's Outpost. They may or may not affect other regions around it, and could all be considered local/clan specific. Some plots 'happen' or occur, and then a few different clans can get involved, but there are still clans that are excluded from interaction because of their background/interests.

Sometimes there's great reasons for non-combat oriented PCs to get involved with plots (They're of a high enough rank to negotiate terms with X Y Z peoples, they can provide services for other people that are useful in perpetuating the plot, etc). Other times it's a stretch, but that's OK too. I know when I play leadership roles, I try to involve everyone who is interested in the plot. If I can't find a ready reason to plug them in, I come up with one that makes sense, because having players/PCs interested in your plot is great. You don't just want the people who 'need' to be there, the people who clearly want to be there are sometimes more important and give an energy to pushing things forward.

World-spanning events sometimes cross these borders, sometimes they don't. I've seen it both ways. I think it often takes ingenuity and perseverance for non-combat PCs to involve themselves with many plots if they aren't directly involved.

[Lizzie]

I just wanna know if I'm now eligible to win a $25 Amazon gift card for participating in the survey.

-she who gets gift cards to Amazon, Starbucks, and Chili's just for taking surveys online.

[boog]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

These are superbly locale and clan specific RPTs and aren't good examples of everyone being allowed into the non-combative fray.

But boog, every plot or series of plots could be considered local and clan specific. If it's happening in Allanak, it probably won't affect the Tablelands and the sundry tribes there. It may, it may not, depends what the content is. Same goes for a plot in the Tablelands, or Luir's Outpost. They may or may not affect other regions around it, and could all be considered local/clan specific. Some plots 'happen' or occur, and then a few different clans can get involved, but there are still clans that are excluded from interaction because of their background/interests.

Sometimes there's great reasons for non-combat oriented PCs to get involved with plots (They're of a high enough rank to negotiate terms with X Y Z peoples, they can provide services for other people that are useful in perpetuating the plot, etc). Other times it's a stretch, but that's OK too. I know when I play leadership roles, I try to involve everyone who is interested in the plot. If I can't find a ready reason to plug them in, I come up with one that makes sense, because having players/PCs interested in your plot is great. You don't just want the people who 'need' to be there, the people who clearly want to be there are sometimes more important and give an energy to pushing things forward.

World-spanning events sometimes cross these borders, sometimes they don't. I've seen it both ways. I think it often takes ingenuity and perseverance for non-combat PCs to involve themselves with many plots if they aren't directly involved.

Clan and locale specific means no one else is getting in unless you're in X clan at Y location. And even then, there wasn't a whole lot of variation in who these plots were for. Sure, you yourself might give things to underlings to pursue, but a lot of people are secretive glory hogs who don't want to share the plot-light with anyone else, which is a terrible shame.

I think a lot of this, too, is that some players don't know what to request, or what to wish up for, while others do both far too much and thus, get noticed more.

But, you won't find any of that in the survey.

[palomar]

While the Deluge affected the northlands, it was a part of the 2009 culmination of the End of the world plot that had involved the entire game world at some point or another. Parts of the HRPT were railroaded but there was a lot of opportunities to influence events for all sorts of PCs along the way. Sure, it was magick heavy but there was room for politics, combat and other stuff too.

[boog]

I think using an event from 2009 as an example for a thread that seems to want to survey current feelings about plots is probably bad.

This is a general observation, not direct at anyone in particular.

[Reiloth]

Fair point. But we do have historical RPTs to draw comparison to at least. Then we can gauge "was this past stuff more fun than current stuff". Personally I think the game is just getting better. It's fun to be nostalgic but I'm digging the direction of staff plots. I'm glad we got out of the focus on player plots exclusively and that staff are telling stories again.

[Taven]

There's two main things I see in this discussion right now: What plots are representative of a broad variety of inclusion and How can people get more involved in plots or how should leaders be involving people. I will be focusing on the first in this post.


Large-Scale Plots and Inclusion/Exclusion

I think maybe this topic is best approached by listing some of the possible large-scale plots. Here's what comes to mind:

Allanaki/Tuluki War (2015): Involved combat roles, non-comm for plotting (limited exposure), stealthy sorts (extremely limited exposure), inspired entertainment plots (broader accessibility)
The Volcano-Relocation Plot (2013): Involved combat roles, spy roles (special sponsored role), non-comm for plotting (limited exposure)
The Deluge/Fire Mountain/Black Moon (2009): Unsure on general accessibility -- Seems like very behind the scenes, extremely limited exposure/magick-based
Copper War (2006): From what others have said, combat roles, non-comm plotting, and generated entertainment plots
(Etc, further back)

There are also some large-scale but more local events as well:

The Pah-Gith Battles (2016): Involved combat roles, non-comm roles (primarily Pah/Luirs area)
The Allanaki Civil Conflict (2015): Involved combat roles, non-comm roles (across multiple factions)
The Gith War (2010): Involved combat roles... Unsure how non-comm came into play.
(Etc, further back)

There are, of course, a vast variety of other more local plots as well. Spiders, Ghyrrak, Wezers, and so on. Those are not, however, especially broad-scale events that they bear mention here. There are also some clan-specific plots that may have involved multiple groups that are not mentioned here.

So in the last half a decade of RL time, there have been only a very limited handful of world-encompassing or city/locale-encompassing plots to look at. As far as I'm aware, all of the examples are staff-initiated plots, where the virtual world did something and then PCs were able to plot/react/engage as a result.

I would be curious, if anyone wished to expand, on what people liked/disliked about the accessibility of these plots, or the exclusion of them. Did people feel they had an impact? What worked? What didn't? What did people want to see more of?

[Refugee]

I've only been playing since 2012 and I've just had 6 PCs, one of whom doesn't really count since I suicided him after 2 weeks to take a sponsored role.  I came here from Shadows of Isildur with a short, unhappy pause at Atonement RPI.

I've never felt like I couldn't get involved in something in Arm that I wanted to.  Granted, I always play combat or semi-combat PCs.  But the accessibility of plot in Arm has always seemed good compared to SoI and especially Atonement at the time I was there.  I think if I wanted to be part of anything going on, I'd be able to find a way that would fit my PC.  Especially in Nak.  Tuluk's culture of suppressing talk of anything troubling made it a bit harder but everyone who wanted to did it anyway. 

Even if my PC is forbidden to be involved in something, if he really wanted to he'd do it.  Consequences are plot too.

[Taven]

This is the second-to last day to get your answers in. Polling will close tomorrow evening. If you haven't yet, give it a go!

[palomar]

There's two main things I see in this discussion right now: What plots are representative of a broad variety of inclusion and How can people get more involved in plots or how should leaders be involving people. I will be focusing on the first in this post.


Large-Scale Plots and Inclusion/Exclusion

I think maybe this topic is best approached by listing some of the possible large-scale plots. Here's what comes to mind:

Allanaki/Tuluki War (2015): Involved combat roles, non-comm for plotting (limited exposure), stealthy sorts (extremely limited exposure), inspired entertainment plots (broader accessibility)
The Volcano-Relocation Plot (2013): Involved combat roles, spy roles (special sponsored role), non-comm for plotting (limited exposure)
The Deluge/Fire Mountain/Black Moon (2009): Unsure on general accessibility -- Seems like very behind the scenes, extremely limited exposure/magick-based
Copper War (2006): From what others have said, combat roles, non-comm plotting, and generated entertainment plots
(Etc, further back)

There are also some large-scale but more local events as well:

The Pah-Gith Battles (2016): Involved combat roles, non-comm roles (primarily Pah/Luirs area)
The Allanaki Civil Conflict (2015): Involved combat roles, non-comm roles (across multiple factions)
The Gith War (2010): Involved combat roles... Unsure how non-comm came into play.
(Etc, further back)

There are, of course, a vast variety of other more local plots as well. Spiders, Ghyrrak, Wezers, and so on. Those are not, however, especially broad-scale events that they bear mention here. There are also some clan-specific plots that may have involved multiple groups that are not mentioned here.

So in the last half a decade of RL time, there have been only a very limited handful of world-encompassing or city/locale-encompassing plots to look at. As far as I'm aware, all of the examples are staff-initiated plots, where the virtual world did something and then PCs were able to plot/react/engage as a result.

I would be curious, if anyone wished to expand, on what people liked/disliked about the accessibility of these plots, or the exclusion of them. Did people feel they had an impact? What worked? What didn't? What did people want to see more of?

Everyone will have different views, of course, but I'd like to point out a few things from my own perspective regarding a couple of the plotlines mentioned above.

The Volcano plot was very inaccessible, even for PCs at the templar/noble level who were otherwise usually in the know, other than the combat part of the HRPT. Noble and templar PCs tried to push events in various directions and very, very little came of it both before and after the HRPT. While an interesting concept as such, it was too railroaded and allowed for far too little PC influence. Far too much was done through NPCs. I play to be involved, not to be a spectator - even if that also certainly has its place in certain situations.

In comparison, the End of the World plotline that culminated with the Deluge/Black moon/Volcano HRPT allowed for far more accessibility, while at the same time most likely having staff-set goals and outcomes. Some people like magick, others don't, but personally I experienced some of the best Arm moments during that extended plotline. It was also evident that player efforts would be taken into account, and sometimes had very clearly visible effects on how things developed. In Tuluk, a lot of what happened after the Deluge was affected by player actions, ideas and efforts. Staff set the stage (halflings gone, kryl moving in, city half-destroyed and rebuilding must commence, Jihaens rising to power etc etc), and players were allowed to run with the ball and work with staff on how to proceed. To some extent, that kind of influence eventually died down in the years leading up to the Volcano HRPT and the environment instead felt restrictive.

While limited in geographical scale, the recent Tablelands extended HRPT was also a good example of player actions (or inactivity) affecting outcomes. Tribes acted, reacted, agreed, disagreed, fought and died due to how players worked with what staff put on the table. Sure, there was quite a bit of obvious staff guidance through rumors/NPCs but to me it felt like it worked. It did however feel as it all ended in a somewhat abrupt fashion with no immediate closure, but maybe it was due to RL stuff in staff land, I don't know. It's also been rather quiet in a way in regards to how to continue, post HRPT.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm going to throw two more 'sids on the pile and say PVP plots are generally an excuse for terrible, terrible play.

Edit: This isn't to say "War plots" are terrible. I've had a lot of fun with them. But they require a lot of staff involvement to get the necessary pieces in place, which has its own downsides. Player versus Player conflict does not appear to be a very sustainable source of RP.