PLEASE PARTICIPATE: Plot Satisfaction Survey

[Taven]

Hi guys,

You can take the survey by clicking here.

It will ask your opinions on a variety of types of plots, how satisfied you are with your ability to pursue them, and how satisfied you are with your support to pursue them (both PC and staff support). There is also a section for you to elaborate on your thoughts at the end, in a non-IC specific way.

If you want to discuss your opinions, good or bad, please feel free to use this thread.


Here are the definitions of what is in the survey, if you find it helpful:

Large world-changing plots: Typically something that has more ripple effects. Historically, any sort of war between cities would quality here. Things which affect multiple locals might apply here. Things which have a definitive lasting impact, that would make the history page or alter documentation.

Small world-changing plots: Admittedly, this has a wide range. Generally, this would involve something small changing a local area. Perhaps adding a new shop in an area, securing a minor treaty, or progressing to an MMH (which feels bigger, but in the scheme of things is not).

Small cross-clan relations plots: Smaller relationships between clans. Could be positive, such as arranging joint sparring or patrols. Could be negative, like playing a prank on a rival house. Think small-time political.

Small personal plots: Achieving small personal goals. For example, this could be getting an item, exploring a place, or other personal goals.

Entertainment plots: Putting on events to entertain. For example, this could be large-scale Fale festivals or hosting Arena events.

Personal relationship plots: Something related to your relationships with others, be they friends, lovers, or so on.

[Taven]

I realize I forgot to add your clan status for ranks, so I adjusted that.

I know we may not have as robust answers for that part. If you already answered, you should be able to go back and edit.

Sorry guys, thanks for the patience.

[Jingo]

Some context would be nice. What is the difference between a large and small world changing plot?

[Reiloth]

Yeah this felt very cookie cutter and like a robot call from Hillary. Whassup?

[Jingo]

It's good data for staff. That's the whole point of a survey. They want to know if it's worth the effort to work on these sorts of things. What sorts of problems players run into etc.

Thing is, I still don't know what the difference between a small world changer and a big world changer. I'm not even sure what qualifies for world changing at this point.

[Taven]

Some context would be nice. What is the difference between a large and small world changing plot?

I'll just briefly outline my thoughts on everything, to be clearer:


Large world-changing plots: Typically something that has more ripple effects. Historically, any sort of war between cities would quality here. Things which affect multiple locals might apply here. Things which have a definitive lasting impact, that would make the history page or alter documentation.

Small world-changing plots: Admittedly, this has a wide range. Generally, this would involve something small changing a local area. Perhaps adding a new shop in an area, securing a minor treaty, or progressing to an MMH (which feels bigger, but in the scheme of things is not).

Small cross-clan relations plots: Smaller relationships between clans. Could be positive, such as arranging joint sparring or patrols. Could be negative, like playing a prank on a rival house. Think small-time political.

Small personal plots: Achieving small personal goals. This could be getting an item, exploring a place, or other personal goals.

Entertainment plots: Putting on events to entertain. This could be large-scale Fale festivals or hosting Arena events.

Personal relationship plots: Something related to your relationships with others, be they friends, lovers, or so on.

[Taven]

Yeah this felt very cookie cutter and like a robot call from Hillary. Whassup?

If you have constructive feedback to offer, please feel free to elaborate. What questions frustrated you, what questions do you feel would be more useful?

[Jingo]

I found that little guide to be helpful. You should add it to the first post.

[Taven]

I found that little guide to be helpful. You should add it to the first post.

Done. 

[Yam]

What do you plan to do with the results?

[BadSkeelz]

is it black mail? I hope it's black mail

(PS: mine's the one where every answer is "fuck magick")

[RogueGunslinger]

I feel like staff and players are more than willing to help along plots. But when it comes to making a permanent mark on the game world you tend to have more hoops to jump through. These hoops tend to keep me from pursuing them, but I also don't think these hoops are particularly difficult to jump through, maybe just a little tedious. I'm just lazy and can find plenty of fun in simply playing through a story, regardless of the effect it has.

[Dunetrade55]

Fuck hoops. I have a game to play.

[Taven]

What do you plan to do with the results?

I'll probably leave the poll open about a week. So far we have a pretty good number of responses; 29 people have taken the time to go through the poll so far (though I believe one person accidentally submitted their answers twice).

After that, I'll close out the poll and take a look at sifting through the data to make it presentable. Then I'll share with everyone the findings.

[Taven]

is it black mail? I hope it's black mail

(PS: mine's the one where every answer is "fuck magick")

I was amused that two comments appeared in this order, from you and some other poll taker:

• Fuck Magick
• It feels like getting anything with magick done is like pulling teeth.

[Iiyola]

Done.

[Reiloth]

It's good data for staff. That's the whole point of a survey. They want to know if it's worth the effort to work on these sorts of things. What sorts of problems players run into etc.

Thing is, I still don't know what the difference between a small world changer and a big world changer. I'm not even sure what qualifies for world changing at this point.

Is it good data? It seems rather vague.

I think everyone will agree they like 'plots', I guess some could enjoy more of one than the other.

[Taven]

Is it good data? It seems rather vague.

I think everyone will agree they like 'plots', I guess some could enjoy more of one than the other.

I've already asked you once to elaborate and be constructive. Any survey can have improvements, and this one is no exception.

Simply saying "it seems vague" and "it feels very cookie cutter and like a robot call from Hillary" is not at all helpful.

You want a better survey? Then actually make some suggestions.

[Reiloth]

Is it good data? It seems rather vague.

I think everyone will agree they like 'plots', I guess some could enjoy more of one than the other.

I've already asked you once to elaborate and be constructive. Any survey can have improvements, and this one is no exception.

Simply saying "it seems vague" and "it feels very cookie cutter and like a robot call from Hillary" is not at all helpful.

You want a better survey? Then actually make some suggestions.

My only suggestion would be to state upfront what the purpose of the survey is, or the possible intention of the survey. That's all.

For instance, while I think your intentions are pure, having this 'data' out there could be used against Staff, if they are doing one sort of plot, and then people are like 'But look at this data, we as a player base clearly want -this- other kind of plot, not the plot you are pursuing'. Similarly, the vague data request could perhaps be enhanced with examples. Would you prefer a plot like the Bat Dungeon Crawl RPT in Tuluk? Did you participate in this RPT? What did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? Would you prefer a plot like the Deluge RPT? Did you participate in the RPT? If so, what did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? Did you participate in the Tablelands RPT? etc.

Making it less multiple choice and cookie-cutter in that way may provide more insight into what worked and didn't work with certain RPTs. That'd be information i'd find useful myself, or interesting at least.

Opinions are like elbows and what-fore...Everyone has one. I know that lots of people prefer one type of plot to the other. But i'm curious how that will help a Staffer or even a player.

Anyways, it isn't a big deal, but I wasn't trying to pick a fight. You cool, Taven.

[BadSkeelz]

29 people have taken the time to go through the poll so far (though I believe one person accidentally submitted their answers twice).

I filed a second survey on behalf of a Friend, though their answers were different from mine and shouldn't appear identical. Unless it's like, giving you the IP address of the submitter or something.

I was amused that two comments appeared in this order, from you and some other poll taker:

• Fuck Magick
• It feels like getting anything with magick done is like pulling teeth.

A good deal is the one everyone is disappointed in.

[Taven]

My only suggestion would be to state upfront what the purpose of the survey is, or the possible intention of the survey. That's all.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on your thoughts, I appreciate it.

I was interested in seeing the data on how Armageddon's playerbase felt about our ability to pursue plots. Of course, there's a lot of different types of plots. Not everyone wants to pursue the same type of plot and not every type of plot needs the same level of support or the support from the same people (be those people other PCs or staff).

I thought it was worthwhile to see how we're doing with things. If something is going really well, I wanted a survey that would reflect that. If something wasn't going well, it would be important to know about that. The only way to fix something is to know it's a problem.

The topic is a pretty big one, though. There's probably ways the survey could be improved even just as what it is. For example, it only has three options for satisfaction levels. A more robust survey would probably have five (very satisfied, satisfied, neutral, mildly dissatisfied, dissatisfied), as this might better reflect things. However, even allowing that there's ways it could be better, I think it should provide a lot of interesting data.

For instance, while I think your intentions are pure, having this 'data' out there could be used against Staff, if they are doing one sort of plot, and then people are like 'But look at this data, we as a player base clearly want -this- other kind of plot, not the plot you are pursuing'.

In terms of data that could be "used against staff", I think that if people are going to have negative opinions about staff and what plots are available, they're going to have them regardless of what this poll says. The only thing the poll enables is seeing first of all, if there's a significant portion of people that feel that way, and secondly, if there is, where they feel the issue is. I think that's something worth knowing.

There's also just a wide variety of different types of plots that people like pursuing. I don't think that we should cater only to the majority, but it is worth knowing where the majority is at.

Similarly, the vague data request could perhaps be enhanced with examples. Would you prefer a plot like the Bat Dungeon Crawl RPT in Tuluk? Did you participate in this RPT? What did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? Would you prefer a plot like the Deluge RPT? Did you participate in the RPT? If so, what did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? Did you participate in the Tablelands RPT? etc.

That would provide more insight into those specific instances, but there's also some potential drawbacks as well. Primarily, that focusing on specific RPT events may more heavily favor responses from combat-type PCs. Focusing on one singular event may also not consider the many resulting types of plots that spawned from one initial incident (the Deluge is an example).

It sounds like your ideal poll has a lot more opportunity to elaborate on personal experience. Why don't you create a thread where the successes or drawbacks of particular plots can be discussed? The only downside is that it's not anonymous like a poll would be, but the benefit is that those adding in their opinions would be able to interact and more fully flesh out the "picture" of a particular plot.

Making it less multiple choice and cookie-cutter in that way may provide more insight into what worked and didn't work with certain RPTs. That'd be information i'd find useful myself, or interesting at least.

Opinions are like elbows and what-fore...Everyone has one. I know that lots of people prefer one type of plot to the other. But i'm curious how that will help a Staffer or even a player.

In terms of using questions about specific RPTs to make it more precise, I agree that it would definitely give insight as to how those particular RPTs worked. I also agree that some of that feedback might be translatable to other future RPTs. It's just something different then what the current data is looking at, which is primarily overall satisfaction or dissatisfaction for different plot types, and how PC and staff support (or lack there of) correlates.

I think the results of this poll could be beneficial to staff and players. Of course, this is just very basic data. If there is an issue with certain types of plots getting certain types of support from certain areas, then that doesn't delve into the whys of it, only the basic feelings that are there. The next step would be taking the results and delving in to the possible WHYS of what's working and what's not.

Anyways, it isn't a big deal, but I wasn't trying to pick a fight. You cool, Taven.

Mostly my frustration just comes from people not elaborating. If something is off, then the only way to address it is to elaborate and discuss. Then maybe it can be worked out, or at the very least, everybody has outlined their opinions and made some positive suggestions.

Thanks again for taking the time to expand on your thoughts. 

[Reiloth]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

[Taven]

I filed a second survey on behalf of a Friend, though their answers were different from mine and shouldn't appear identical. Unless it's like, giving you the IP address of the submitter or something.

You should be fine.

In the case I'm speaking of, the person actually identified in their comments that they had previously tried to submit and weren't sure if it went through. I'll just make a note of it so that data doesn't get counted twice.

[MeTekillot]

The only polls I do are on the GDB.

[Taven]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

[Reiloth]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

It also seems (correct me if i'm wrong) that non-com plots will have a lot more Staff attention as to the outcome -- So while you may be able to pick between a few options, there are virtual entities who will also be interested in going one way or the other. In combat RPTs, you can basically show up and have fun, and it's all within the box of the 'screen' so to speak. With non-com plots, it tends to lead to a lot of back and forth, request tool, and plotting IG, which can as you say lead to less fruition, or less likelihood of 'success' in that respect.

I enjoy a good non-com plot, and I miss Tuluk for its abundance of them. But -- I can see how they are sticky pickles.

[Taven]

It also seems (correct me if i'm wrong) that non-com plots will have a lot more Staff attention as to the outcome -- So while you may be able to pick between a few options, there are virtual entities who will also be interested in going one way or the other. In combat RPTs, you can basically show up and have fun, and it's all within the box of the 'screen' so to speak. With non-com plots, it tends to lead to a lot of back and forth, request tool, and plotting IG, which can as you say lead to less fruition, or less likelihood of 'success' in that respect.

I enjoy a good non-com plot, and I miss Tuluk for its abundance of them. But -- I can see how they are sticky pickles.

While certainly combat plots can require a lot of staff involvement (making rooms, animating nasties, creating mobs), I'd still agree with your assessment that non-com plots need more staff support. I'm not even sure it's necessarily more, exactly, so much as it is a timing thing.

Let's say you're trying to negotiate some sort of treaty or political whatever. The process typically goes like this:

1. Proposing the idea to staff
2. Proposing the idea to the relevant PC
3. The relevant PC proposing the idea to their staff, with their view/hopes on it
4. The relevant idea proposing their moifications on the idea to you, after running it past staff
5. Negotiations between PCs (possibly with many pauses for proposals to staff, and questions about the virtual world)
6. Possible success, provided nothing unexpected happens (otherwise you will need to repeat some steps, assuming the plot is still viable)

If your staff is amazing and on top of everything and answers quickly, you can still be delayed by the other PC not being reliable--and that is assuming they actually want to pursue the plot and aren't intentionally stringing you along. Often times there's no way to tell where the hold up is, if staff is slow or if a PC is the issue.

Of course, treaty/political non-comm plots are not the only type of non-comm plots, but it's an example of how response and time-heavy a non-comm plot can be.

[BadSkeelz]

I think it's also fair to say that non-combat plots are somewhat more susceptible to Sudden Participant Death Syndrome.. Combat plots often have redundant leaders from multiple clans involved, and can carry on if a single fighter or even a leader gets unexpectantly sidelined. But a non-combat plot requires all the actors to stay alive through to the end, as there rarely seems to be any sort of organization redundancy.

[Taven]

I think it's also fair to say that non-combat plots are somewhat more susceptible to Sudden Participant Death Syndrome.. Combat plots often have redundant leaders from multiple clans involved, and can carry on if a single fighter or even a leader gets unexpectantly sidelined. But a non-combat plot requires all the actors to stay alive through to the end, as there rarely seems to be any sort of organization redundancy.

Or more often: Sudden Participant AWOL Syndrome.

Typically there's some factors in non-com plots that are potential issues with both the (usually singular) PC you're working with and staff: Their playtimes versus yours, if they get unexpectedly busy, if they die (in the case of a PC), and their reliability in general.

These can also all be issues with combat clans, especially coordinating a good RPT time, but typically there's a little more wiggle room and redundancy. Most large combat clans have multiple top leaders (Sarges) or a secondary leader option (First Trooper, Corporal, or Regular). A First Trooper might be given leeway to take a combat clan out if strictly necessary, but odds are a lot less that a secondary non-comm is available or empowered to finish the deal.

[valeria]

The perception that all plots are combat plots or political plots really frustrates me.  In the last few years, all of the plots I've participated in have had a healthy dose of both, if not been solely political.  And I do mean HRPT-level stuff.  Tyn Dashra ended with a big combat bang, but it was hugely political in the leadup.  And everything that happened in Allanak 1.5 - 2 years ago was also massively political, though again, there was some combat toward the end.

[Reiloth]

The perception that all plots are combat plots or political plots really frustrates me.  In the last few years, all of the plots I've participated in have had a healthy dose of both, if not been solely political.  And I do mean HRPT-level stuff.  Tyn Dashra ended with a big combat bang, but it was hugely political in the leadup.  And everything that happened in Allanak 1.5 - 2 years ago was also massively political, though again, there was some combat toward the end.

Yeah. I think people tend to whitewash events and remember the flashy stuff that's most easily perceived. The Copper Wars had a ton of political dealings, but most of it was behind the scenes, so the only people who remember that were involved with that. The other 70% will only remember the combat forays.

[Taven]

The perception that all plots are combat plots or political plots really frustrates me.  In the last few years, all of the plots I've participated in have had a healthy dose of both, if not been solely political.  And I do mean HRPT-level stuff.  Tyn Dashra ended with a big combat bang, but it was hugely political in the leadup.  And everything that happened in Allanak 1.5 - 2 years ago was also massively political, though again, there was some combat toward the end.

Yeah. I think people tend to whitewash events and remember the flashy stuff that's most easily perceived. The Copper Wars had a ton of political dealings, but most of it was behind the scenes, so the only people who remember that were involved with that. The other 70% will only remember the combat forays.

I think part of this is also what can be talked about, what gets recorded, and what is remembered.

Typically, combat PCs have much shorter lives, so it's easier to talk about something sooner. Types of PCs that are involved in non-combat plots can live a lot longer.

Even when they die, some of the negotiations or impacts may be secret. While they're alive, they're also less likely to brag about specifics to other PCs, while conversely while a combat PC is alive, they'll usually brag more or even have songs about it.

Ultimately, I think because the (as you put it) "flashy stuff" is what players see more of, that tends to be what players remember. Typically non-com plots involve less people (depending on type, of course).

[Taven]

For those of you who are curious, we have 46 answers to the poll so far, FYI.

[Dresan]

The vast majority of roles in the game are not political in nature though. These days its played by even less people, nobles and templars being the majority, with some of the leaders in the clans being the minority. With exception of the aides that are often involved, most of these roles which are sponsored are supposed to be there to help make the game fun for everyone ELSE.

I know they are trying to change this slightly but the vast disconnect between the nobility/upper crust and commoners is really unfortunate. This should have lead to an uprising, it did in tuluk,  instead we have stagnation. Ultimately what commoners do or think has no effect on the upper crust. This mean that both side are in their own worlds, where the other side might as well be virtual and played by staff from time to time.  WHAT noble bob did A,B,C,X,Y,Z? Outrageous!...oh wait, it doesn't matter at all, to them ,their house, because who cares what the general population think of them. What fun.

Back on topic though.

I like plots big or small, where anyone can get involved, the objectives are clear, and the consequences for success or failure are on the table for all to see. Where politics, cloak and dagger, and betrayals are are just people being people doing what they can to  try to take advantage and profit due to circumstances around the plot.  The copper war was pretty solid in this regard. It might not have had earth shattering consequences but it was sure fun.

That said, I do enjoy earth shattering consequences in HRPTs since it effects how we continue to play the game in between plots, mostly because this keeps the game from becoming feel stale itself.  

[Taven]

The vast majority of roles in the game are not political in nature though. These days its played by even less people, nobles and templars being the majority, with some of the leaders in the clans being the minority. With exception of the aides that are often involved, most of these roles which are sponsored are supposed to be there to help make the game fun for everyone ELSE.

I know they are trying to change this slightly but the vast disconnect between the nobility/upper crust and commoners is really unfortunate. This should have lead to an uprising, it did in tuluk,  instead we have stagnation. Ultimately what commoners do or think has no effect on the upper crust. This mean that both side are in their own worlds, where the other side might as well be virtual and played by staff from time to time.  WHAT noble bob did A,B,C,X,Y,Z? Outrageous!...oh wait, it doesn't matter at all, to them ,their house, because who cares what the general population think of them. What fun.

The way the game is set up is really designed for a trickle-down effect. Basically, you have your Leader PCs, who are in a prime position to either start plots or have a House reaction to them. The idea is that they will then involve other clans/groups which could be beneficial to their ends. This is probably most successful with combat plots. You have your initial goal, the leader PCs figure out what they want, and then various groups are included to pursue it.

It doesn't have as big of an impact on non-comm plots, although certainly there could be an impact there. The impact just tends to be less revealing. I guess apart from political negotiation plots, one of the primary impacts of plots that comes to mind for non-comms is the "make this" plot. This can relate to eventually combat plots (we need this specially-designed gear or weapon) or it can relate to entertainment plots (make me this statue that's in theme with my party). But that trickle down, while good for the clans in question (namely GMH in this example), isn't necessarily a full plot. For the crafters involved, it's more of just an order. Now, it certainly could become more, either from the requester or the crafter's approach, or the needed materials, but that does not happen too frequently, from what I have seen.

Back on topic though.

I like plots big or small, where anyone can get involved, the objectives are clear, and the consequences for success or failure are on the table for all to see. Where politics, cloak and dagger, and betrayals are are just people being people doing what they can to  try to take advantage and profit due to circumstances around the plot.  The copper war was pretty solid in this regard. It might not have had earth shattering consequences but it was sure fun.

That said, I do enjoy earth shattering consequences in HRPTs since it effects how we continue to play the game in between plots, mostly because this keeps the game from becoming feel stale itself.

I think the really huge plots (Copper War in your example) are initially staff-driven, because PCs have trouble initiating things at that sort of level. Simply speaking, withing the virtual world, they just don't have the rank. However, I agree that once a major plot like that gets started, it does have a lot of potential impacts for others. The latest Allanaki-Tuluki conflict (I struggle to call it a proper war) was like this. PCs were given power to move things in a direction that they wanted, but they had to work together to do so, or foil each other. This generated both cross-city plots as well as internal city plots. Your political rival may have a good idea, but do you want it to succeed? It could reduce your own standing. Can you steal the idea? Can you make people think the idea is yours? Do you have a better idea? The combat side of war always has its own problems, but politically, there's a lot of neat options.

I think that Tuluk's closure was supposed to make the internal Allanaki RP a lot more robust, and designed to see a lot more inner-city plots going on, within a small space. While in theory it sounds great, I'm not sure the reality went as intended, although I've previously been more optimistic at the possibilities. I agree with what others have said, which is that Allanak is basically an unequaled and unchallenged entity. Apart from internal divisions, I'm not sure there's a larger arena for 'Nak to play in anymore.

[Taven]

FYI, we are at 51 responses to the survey now. Awesome!

If you haven't participated yet, you have until the end of the week to get your vote in.

[Taven]

I'm going to keep bumping this, every day, until the end of the week when the poll closes.

We're at 53 responses. If there's any stragglers out there, come on and vote!

[Taven]

We're at a full 60 responses! Thanks to everyone who has participated thus far, but with a particular thanks to those of you that took the time to add comments. The comments are great to read, from how you feel about plots, to insights on if the survey is doing what it should.

If you haven't voted yet, vote! You have until sometime this Friday, when I will be closing the poll.

[boog]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

These are superbly locale and clan specific RPTs and aren't good examples of everyone being allowed into the non-combative fray.

[Reiloth]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

These are superbly locale and clan specific RPTs and aren't good examples of everyone being allowed into the non-combative fray.

But boog, every plot or series of plots could be considered local and clan specific. If it's happening in Allanak, it probably won't affect the Tablelands and the sundry tribes there. It may, it may not, depends what the content is. Same goes for a plot in the Tablelands, or Luir's Outpost. They may or may not affect other regions around it, and could all be considered local/clan specific. Some plots 'happen' or occur, and then a few different clans can get involved, but there are still clans that are excluded from interaction because of their background/interests.

Sometimes there's great reasons for non-combat oriented PCs to get involved with plots (They're of a high enough rank to negotiate terms with X Y Z peoples, they can provide services for other people that are useful in perpetuating the plot, etc). Other times it's a stretch, but that's OK too. I know when I play leadership roles, I try to involve everyone who is interested in the plot. If I can't find a ready reason to plug them in, I come up with one that makes sense, because having players/PCs interested in your plot is great. You don't just want the people who 'need' to be there, the people who clearly want to be there are sometimes more important and give an energy to pushing things forward.

World-spanning events sometimes cross these borders, sometimes they don't. I've seen it both ways. I think it often takes ingenuity and perseverance for non-combat PCs to involve themselves with many plots if they aren't directly involved.

[Lizzie]

I just wanna know if I'm now eligible to win a $25 Amazon gift card for participating in the survey.

-she who gets gift cards to Amazon, Starbucks, and Chili's just for taking surveys online.

[boog]

I'm curious if there is room for more non-combat RPTs as well, Staff sponsored at that. You are correct in saying most HRPT/RPTs of the nature I mentioned were combat oriented.

Usually there's a connection between the two, it's just sometimes less obvious for non-coms.

Using two of your RPT examples:

The Tablelands Gith plot: Involved negotiations between various groups for varying level of assistance and coordination, giving it a decent slice of non-combat opportunity.

The Deluge: Lead to multiple building plots, lead to a large disease-curing plot, and set the tone in Tuluk for the next 20+ IC years.


I've noticed that in the past RL year or so, across multiple locals, staff has definitely upped some potential plots for non-coms, namely looking at negotiations, treaties, and deal-making. However, I would also say based on my personal observation that these plots are much, much less likely to come to fruition then combat plots.

These are superbly locale and clan specific RPTs and aren't good examples of everyone being allowed into the non-combative fray.

But boog, every plot or series of plots could be considered local and clan specific. If it's happening in Allanak, it probably won't affect the Tablelands and the sundry tribes there. It may, it may not, depends what the content is. Same goes for a plot in the Tablelands, or Luir's Outpost. They may or may not affect other regions around it, and could all be considered local/clan specific. Some plots 'happen' or occur, and then a few different clans can get involved, but there are still clans that are excluded from interaction because of their background/interests.

Sometimes there's great reasons for non-combat oriented PCs to get involved with plots (They're of a high enough rank to negotiate terms with X Y Z peoples, they can provide services for other people that are useful in perpetuating the plot, etc). Other times it's a stretch, but that's OK too. I know when I play leadership roles, I try to involve everyone who is interested in the plot. If I can't find a ready reason to plug them in, I come up with one that makes sense, because having players/PCs interested in your plot is great. You don't just want the people who 'need' to be there, the people who clearly want to be there are sometimes more important and give an energy to pushing things forward.

World-spanning events sometimes cross these borders, sometimes they don't. I've seen it both ways. I think it often takes ingenuity and perseverance for non-combat PCs to involve themselves with many plots if they aren't directly involved.

Clan and locale specific means no one else is getting in unless you're in X clan at Y location. And even then, there wasn't a whole lot of variation in who these plots were for. Sure, you yourself might give things to underlings to pursue, but a lot of people are secretive glory hogs who don't want to share the plot-light with anyone else, which is a terrible shame.

I think a lot of this, too, is that some players don't know what to request, or what to wish up for, while others do both far too much and thus, get noticed more.

But, you won't find any of that in the survey.

[palomar]

While the Deluge affected the northlands, it was a part of the 2009 culmination of the End of the world plot that had involved the entire game world at some point or another. Parts of the HRPT were railroaded but there was a lot of opportunities to influence events for all sorts of PCs along the way. Sure, it was magick heavy but there was room for politics, combat and other stuff too.

[boog]

I think using an event from 2009 as an example for a thread that seems to want to survey current feelings about plots is probably bad.

This is a general observation, not direct at anyone in particular.

[Reiloth]

Fair point. But we do have historical RPTs to draw comparison to at least. Then we can gauge "was this past stuff more fun than current stuff". Personally I think the game is just getting better. It's fun to be nostalgic but I'm digging the direction of staff plots. I'm glad we got out of the focus on player plots exclusively and that staff are telling stories again.

[Taven]

There's two main things I see in this discussion right now: What plots are representative of a broad variety of inclusion and How can people get more involved in plots or how should leaders be involving people. I will be focusing on the first in this post.


Large-Scale Plots and Inclusion/Exclusion

I think maybe this topic is best approached by listing some of the possible large-scale plots. Here's what comes to mind:

Allanaki/Tuluki War (2015): Involved combat roles, non-comm for plotting (limited exposure), stealthy sorts (extremely limited exposure), inspired entertainment plots (broader accessibility)
The Volcano-Relocation Plot (2013): Involved combat roles, spy roles (special sponsored role), non-comm for plotting (limited exposure)
The Deluge/Fire Mountain/Black Moon (2009): Unsure on general accessibility -- Seems like very behind the scenes, extremely limited exposure/magick-based
Copper War (2006): From what others have said, combat roles, non-comm plotting, and generated entertainment plots
(Etc, further back)

There are also some large-scale but more local events as well:

The Pah-Gith Battles (2016): Involved combat roles, non-comm roles (primarily Pah/Luirs area)
The Allanaki Civil Conflict (2015): Involved combat roles, non-comm roles (across multiple factions)
The Gith War (2010): Involved combat roles... Unsure how non-comm came into play.
(Etc, further back)

There are, of course, a vast variety of other more local plots as well. Spiders, Ghyrrak, Wezers, and so on. Those are not, however, especially broad-scale events that they bear mention here. There are also some clan-specific plots that may have involved multiple groups that are not mentioned here.

So in the last half a decade of RL time, there have been only a very limited handful of world-encompassing or city/locale-encompassing plots to look at. As far as I'm aware, all of the examples are staff-initiated plots, where the virtual world did something and then PCs were able to plot/react/engage as a result.

I would be curious, if anyone wished to expand, on what people liked/disliked about the accessibility of these plots, or the exclusion of them. Did people feel they had an impact? What worked? What didn't? What did people want to see more of?

[Refugee]

I've only been playing since 2012 and I've just had 6 PCs, one of whom doesn't really count since I suicided him after 2 weeks to take a sponsored role.  I came here from Shadows of Isildur with a short, unhappy pause at Atonement RPI.

I've never felt like I couldn't get involved in something in Arm that I wanted to.  Granted, I always play combat or semi-combat PCs.  But the accessibility of plot in Arm has always seemed good compared to SoI and especially Atonement at the time I was there.  I think if I wanted to be part of anything going on, I'd be able to find a way that would fit my PC.  Especially in Nak.  Tuluk's culture of suppressing talk of anything troubling made it a bit harder but everyone who wanted to did it anyway. 

Even if my PC is forbidden to be involved in something, if he really wanted to he'd do it.  Consequences are plot too.

[Taven]

This is the second-to last day to get your answers in. Polling will close tomorrow evening. If you haven't yet, give it a go!

[palomar]

There's two main things I see in this discussion right now: What plots are representative of a broad variety of inclusion and How can people get more involved in plots or how should leaders be involving people. I will be focusing on the first in this post.


Large-Scale Plots and Inclusion/Exclusion

I think maybe this topic is best approached by listing some of the possible large-scale plots. Here's what comes to mind:

Allanaki/Tuluki War (2015): Involved combat roles, non-comm for plotting (limited exposure), stealthy sorts (extremely limited exposure), inspired entertainment plots (broader accessibility)
The Volcano-Relocation Plot (2013): Involved combat roles, spy roles (special sponsored role), non-comm for plotting (limited exposure)
The Deluge/Fire Mountain/Black Moon (2009): Unsure on general accessibility -- Seems like very behind the scenes, extremely limited exposure/magick-based
Copper War (2006): From what others have said, combat roles, non-comm plotting, and generated entertainment plots
(Etc, further back)

There are also some large-scale but more local events as well:

The Pah-Gith Battles (2016): Involved combat roles, non-comm roles (primarily Pah/Luirs area)
The Allanaki Civil Conflict (2015): Involved combat roles, non-comm roles (across multiple factions)
The Gith War (2010): Involved combat roles... Unsure how non-comm came into play.
(Etc, further back)

There are, of course, a vast variety of other more local plots as well. Spiders, Ghyrrak, Wezers, and so on. Those are not, however, especially broad-scale events that they bear mention here. There are also some clan-specific plots that may have involved multiple groups that are not mentioned here.

So in the last half a decade of RL time, there have been only a very limited handful of world-encompassing or city/locale-encompassing plots to look at. As far as I'm aware, all of the examples are staff-initiated plots, where the virtual world did something and then PCs were able to plot/react/engage as a result.

I would be curious, if anyone wished to expand, on what people liked/disliked about the accessibility of these plots, or the exclusion of them. Did people feel they had an impact? What worked? What didn't? What did people want to see more of?

Everyone will have different views, of course, but I'd like to point out a few things from my own perspective regarding a couple of the plotlines mentioned above.

The Volcano plot was very inaccessible, even for PCs at the templar/noble level who were otherwise usually in the know, other than the combat part of the HRPT. Noble and templar PCs tried to push events in various directions and very, very little came of it both before and after the HRPT. While an interesting concept as such, it was too railroaded and allowed for far too little PC influence. Far too much was done through NPCs. I play to be involved, not to be a spectator - even if that also certainly has its place in certain situations.

In comparison, the End of the World plotline that culminated with the Deluge/Black moon/Volcano HRPT allowed for far more accessibility, while at the same time most likely having staff-set goals and outcomes. Some people like magick, others don't, but personally I experienced some of the best Arm moments during that extended plotline. It was also evident that player efforts would be taken into account, and sometimes had very clearly visible effects on how things developed. In Tuluk, a lot of what happened after the Deluge was affected by player actions, ideas and efforts. Staff set the stage (halflings gone, kryl moving in, city half-destroyed and rebuilding must commence, Jihaens rising to power etc etc), and players were allowed to run with the ball and work with staff on how to proceed. To some extent, that kind of influence eventually died down in the years leading up to the Volcano HRPT and the environment instead felt restrictive.

While limited in geographical scale, the recent Tablelands extended HRPT was also a good example of player actions (or inactivity) affecting outcomes. Tribes acted, reacted, agreed, disagreed, fought and died due to how players worked with what staff put on the table. Sure, there was quite a bit of obvious staff guidance through rumors/NPCs but to me it felt like it worked. It did however feel as it all ended in a somewhat abrupt fashion with no immediate closure, but maybe it was due to RL stuff in staff land, I don't know. It's also been rather quiet in a way in regards to how to continue, post HRPT.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm going to throw two more 'sids on the pile and say PVP plots are generally an excuse for terrible, terrible play.

Edit: This isn't to say "War plots" are terrible. I've had a lot of fun with them. But they require a lot of staff involvement to get the necessary pieces in place, which has its own downsides. Player versus Player conflict does not appear to be a very sustainable source of RP.

[solera]

The best thing about the Volcano plot was the way it seemed to re-polarize the relationship between Allanak and Tuluk. I like plots that shake up the way things are for the common PC.  Permadeathing Tuluk-the-way-we-knew-it is the supreme example.

[nauta]

I'm going to throw two more 'sids on the pile and say PVP plots are generally an excuse for terrible, terrible play.

Edit: This isn't to say "War plots" are terrible. I've had a lot of fun with them. But they require a lot of staff involvement to get the necessary pieces in place, which has its own downsides. Player versus Player conflict does not appear to be a very sustainable source of RP.

Can you expand on what you mean by 'PVP'?  I've found some of my most enjoyable plots to be 'PVP' in the sense of: antagonist A is out to MCB me.  This doesn't require staff involvement.  So you must mean something else?

PVE does require staff involvement, at least when the coded world isn't capable of responding.

[James de Monet]

The Volcano plot was very inaccessible, even for PCs at the templar/noble level who were otherwise usually in the know, other than the combat part of the HRPT. Noble and templar PCs tried to push events in various directions and very, very little came of it both before and after the HRPT. While an interesting concept as such, it was too railroaded and allowed for far too little PC influence. Far too much was done through NPCs. I play to be involved, not to be a spectator - even if that also certainly has its place in certain situations.

I don't want to get too IC, but is this comment from a Tuluki perspective?

[palomar]

The Volcano plot was very inaccessible, even for PCs at the templar/noble level who were otherwise usually in the know, other than the combat part of the HRPT. Noble and templar PCs tried to push events in various directions and very, very little came of it both before and after the HRPT. While an interesting concept as such, it was too railroaded and allowed for far too little PC influence. Far too much was done through NPCs. I play to be involved, not to be a spectator - even if that also certainly has its place in certain situations.

I don't want to get too IC, but is this comment from a Tuluki perspective?

Yes, a templar perspective. With "the Volcano HRPT" I mean the entire reshaping of the political scene in Tuluk, from diplomatic stuff months before the actual event and up to the merging of the Orders, Negean etc months after the event.

[Riev]

While I appreciate a nice, neat railroaded plot, I at least want to be along for the ride. I don't mind if there are only two endings, you get the princess or she is in another castle, as long as I get to play.

The Tuluki political scene wasn't a railroaded plot, it was more of an over-arching culture shift. Players were not "along for the ride" as much as "got to see the train passing by and everyone was drinking martinis". Its a major downfall of the "low fantasy" theme, where none of us are really "all that important" because, in the end, we ARE playing a game.

The volcano plot was a reminder that the staff own this game, there is a story being written BEYOND what the players interact with and can influence, and is basically like watching a movie, but you get to "play in the universe of the movie". Nothing you do is going to affect, or even touch at the majority of the story, but maybe some day the people in the movie will be giving a speech and you can be in the crowd.

[palomar]

Well if you don't know you are watching the train for six months it is probably going to leave a bad taste in your mouth when you realize nothing you did mattered because of the pending over all shift. I don't bear a grudge, I simply compare my experiences with different major plots and I really didn't enjoy the lack of meaningful involvement in regards to the Volcano stuff. And I don't even really expect to be able to have influence in most matters my PCs come across, not even as the templar I played during those times.

Edit to add: regardless of the high magick, the End of the world plotline was more fun to me because PC involvement had meaning, even if it had little or no impact on the final outcome. A different way to handle world changing events, and I know which one I prefer.

[Riev]

Well if you don't know you are watching the train for six months it is probably going to leave a bad taste in your mouth when you realize nothing you did mattered because of the pending over all shift. I don't bear a grudge, I simply compare my experiences with different major plots and I really didn't enjoy the lack of meaningful involvement in regards to the Volcano stuff. And I don't even really expect to be able to have influence in most matters my PCs come across, not even as the templar I played during those times.

]

Admittedly the deluge was super fun. From the building of the Arena just beforehand, to the incredible mismanagement of resources and planning. To Creek "saving" a few people because he shut the gates and it blocked some of the flood, only to get swept up in it himself, and helping to save some Templar.

I don't know that anything PCs did affected THAT plot, but it started a whole lot of stuff afterwards that was kinda neat for a while. Volcano plot was just a Pink Floyd laser show and a minor inconvenience.

[palomar]

The individual setting off the Flood was supposedly a PC, but you have a good point in that it set off a lot of player activity afterwards. There was a whole lot of activity throughout the years before the Flood, from the Copper war and on, that kept a large portion of PCs involved (and it was not possible to see how it was all connected, for non-staff). When that happens, it is fine with me if some stuff was basically predetermined.

[Taven]

Alright guys, we're in the home stretch now.

The poll will be open until sometime this evening, when I decide to close it.

If you haven't responded yet, today is your last chance!

[Reiloth]

To me, the best way to tell a story as a DM is to have large 'plot goals', things I want to accomplish moving forward, but allow the 'getting there' to either have the illusion of choice or the grandeur of choice. Most of the time, the illusion of choice suffices. Players make decisions that have flavor additions or alterations to things i've planned, or improv moments that I like better than the thing I did plan, so I roll with it. Some of the time, though, you can add gravitas to the things players do and really make their 'Choose Wisely' moment matter significantly.

I've been involved with a plethora of plots on ArmageddonMUD that are exactly this. I've had PCs that make decisions that seem to matter, but maybe don't beyond the flavor, or decisions that have made a lasting mark on the game world, even if it's something small like a room description change.

With this in mind, I think that with smaller-goal Plots that Staff are involved in, it's easier to make lasting impressions or have the illusion of lasting impressions (they may not last beyond your PC, for example). Larger scale HRPT types of plots, you shouldn't have the auspices that you are going to change the railroad tracks. You might be able to determine flavor things about the plot, but it will likely end at that. I can only imagine it would be a nightmare to cater to the improv and thoughts of all the players involved with an HRPT, when you really just want to accomplish X Y Z goal.

IIRC, with the Tuluki Light Show plot, the spy plot in Tuluk could have had several accounted for outcomes, and it just happened the way it did organically. They could have failed, they could have been discovered, but they weren't.

Anyways, just some speculation on plots and why large scale plots will almost never have the level of player input that players want, but smaller scale plots (IMHO) depend on player input. I think if we set our sights a little lower, we would be much happier overall with plots run by Staff.

Where i've seen it become particularly a sticky pickle is with long-lived PCs, especially Nobles and Templars. They tend to live so long, that everyone knows who they are between characters, and they seem to have accomplished quite a bit. However, there is the 'more, Oliver, more' syndrome where everything must be bigger and better than before, more building projects, more of this, more of that.

I really think we could all as a playerbase stop the passive aggressive 'my superiors said...' whining, that's basically a thinly veiled 'Staff is dragging their heels' or 'Staff said no to me'. Your superiors snubbed you? Deal with it! Kill them, find some new superiors.

Part of perhaps what bothers me about the request tool and character reports / IC questions to Staff via the request tool, is it takes you as the player out of the game, which blurs the line between OOC and IC almost immediately. Sometimes I question myself if this is an ICly motivated plot, or an OOCly motivated plot I am trying to stir up in the game. Just because I -can- come up with a plot, should I? Do Nobles/Leaders need to be 'doing things' all the time to be a well-played Noble/Leader PC? It reminds me of the Mastercraft System -- Just because I -am- a master in a skill, is it my duty to make a new object every month? Is this an IC goal or an OOC goal?

[James de Monet]

Yes, a templar perspective. With "the Volcano HRPT" I mean the entire reshaping of the political scene in Tuluk, from diplomatic stuff months before the actual event and up to the merging of the Orders, Negean etc months after the event.

Ah, I see.  That makes sense.  I asked because the "Volcano HRPT" such as it was in the South, was a very different affair, and there were a number of PCs that were very active in shaping it.  In a way, that makes sense, though, because the OOC goal of the plot was mostly centered in the North, so the Nakkis would have had a fair bit more latitude to create momentum in different directions, but still advance the plot.

[Riev]

Part of perhaps what bothers me about the request tool and character reports / IC questions to Staff via the request tool, is it takes you as the player out of the game, which blurs the line between OOC and IC almost immediately. Sometimes I question myself if this is an ICly motivated plot, or an OOCly motivated plot I am trying to stir up in the game. Just because I -can- come up with a plot, should I? Do Nobles/Leaders need to be 'doing things' all the time to be a well-played Noble/Leader PC? It reminds me of the Mastercraft System -- Just because I -am- a master in a skill, is it my duty to make a new object every month? Is this an IC goal or an OOC goal?

I will say that it seems to be a skill some staff have to hone. I've had some staff VERY good about saying "Your Sergeant would say" or "The Red in charge suggests" if it is something for keeping IC, IC. Honestly, rarely do I get something back that says "I think it would be a bad idea if..." unless I was asking for advice and even then, most staff don't tell me how to play.

My issue with it all is that if my boss tells me its a bad idea, I generally assume its a "You'll be killed so don't do it". Like, do I do it because its fun, a game, and it'll stir something up? Or do I RP it out as "I wouldn't do it because my boss said its a bad idea"?

Related to Mastercrafts, I don't think you HAVE to submit something every month (unless you have customers lined up and are in a Merchant House). But I know the FEW times I've submitted a MC, its got IC and OOC bends to it. Like, I want to make this thing ICly, but OOCly I want it to be somewhat convoluted so I'll do it THIS way...

[Lizzie]

Part of perhaps what bothers me about the request tool and character reports / IC questions to Staff via the request tool, is it takes you as the player out of the game, which blurs the line between OOC and IC almost immediately. Sometimes I question myself if this is an ICly motivated plot, or an OOCly motivated plot I am trying to stir up in the game. Just because I -can- come up with a plot, should I? Do Nobles/Leaders need to be 'doing things' all the time to be a well-played Noble/Leader PC? It reminds me of the Mastercraft System -- Just because I -am- a master in a skill, is it my duty to make a new object every month? Is this an IC goal or an OOC goal?

This has been and continues to be my biggest complaint about the request tool system. For quite awhile, I had to actually preface character reports with something like "The following is a report, from Lizzie, about the goings-on of my character. If my character is needing IC info I will notate it as such" because I had such a nasty bitter taste in my mouth when a staffer would tell me via request response what my character had permission to feel/think/do even when I didn't ask them.

Things have gone MUCH more smoothly within the past year, but it is still a bitter pill I don't enjoy taking. If my character wants to know something from her superiors, I'd much prefer she ask them in game. If that means a staffer needs to take 5 minutes out of his day in game instead of 5 minutes out of his day to type out a request response, so be it. I appreciate that we're not all available at the same time all the time, but there are more than one staffer on each clan roster. At some point during the dozens of hours I put in every week, surely one of them has time to animate a clan boss and tell my character to take a hike, or sure, go ahead and kill Lord Fancypants, or no, you can't blow up Tuluk because we need it, but talk to Amos because he has some ideas that would work.

[Cayuga]

It actually depends on the staffer, and how flexible they are in terms of schedule or desirous they are of having another staffer do such a thing for them. It's not as black and white as you make it seem, Lizzie. We would all love to be able to tell people things in game. Some of us simply aren't that available.

[Taven]

Just FYI for everyone, I have CLOSED the polling.

I will be reviewing all of the results and making colorful graphs and charts for you to look at, so stay tuned.

In the meanwhile, please feel free to continue discussing.

[Reiloth]

It actually depends on the staffer, and how flexible they are in terms of schedule or desirous they are of having another staffer do such a thing for them. It's not as black and white as you make it seem, Lizzie. We would all love to be able to tell people things in game. Some of us simply aren't that available.

Or, available at the time you are, as you pointed out. Or to have to sit there for 45 minutes while you pontificate and report. I mean, just playing Leadership PCs, I can commiserate with Staff on the point of hearing your minions report for like an hour...And then having another minion show up and have to hear a different version of the same thing. Kill me now! I wish I had a Request Tool sometimes.

While I miss parts of the old report in-game system, I do appreciate that everything is accountable and I can look it up. There's aspects I like of the Request Tool, I just wish I could do it in game, sort of like writing in a book.