Utility Skills: Bash door, block door, or 'ingrained skills'

[Reiloth]

So, skills currently are guild specific, with a few skills that an be learned through trial and error (Pilot, for example).

What if every 'Guild' had access to trial and error skills that are based off stats (Strength, Agility, Wisdom, Endurance) but not 'learned' and not something you can 'get gud' at. So this isn't something that would appear on your skill list. There would be a helpfile listing 'common skills/commands', that would list all the things you could do, interact with the world in this way, etc.

Two examples that came to mind were -- Bash Door, Block Door. These would be based off strength/endurance. Doors could have different 'difficulty levels', say 1-25. Some doors could only be bashed by a half-giant, while others could be torn to flinders by a human or strong elf. Similar to D&D and failed checks, if you try to bash a door X amount of times (say 3), you go through a cooldown period. But you decrease the difficulty

Conversely, block door would be based on strength/endurance. You can (with others) attempt to block a door from being bashed in. Perhaps doors could also have a 'size' edesc that provides parameters for how many people can block the door at once (1, 2, 3, etc.). Each time someone on the other side attempts to bash it, you increase the difficulty of the door, but you take large hits to your stamina. The more people blocking the door, the less of a hit to stamina you get.



So, these skills wouldn't be 'skills' per se. They would be functions of your stats, similar to 'strength checks' or things of that sort. Everyone could do them. Some would just be better at them, based on raw strength, endurance, wisdom, or agility, rather than as a trained ability.

What other 'inrgrained' skills can you think of?

[Riev]

I wouldn't mind 'skill check' progression in certain areas/staff led RPTs... though the "Oooh we don't have a thief guess we can't do this" trope blows.

I'd almost be for the OPPOSITE of this, where after say 60/100 on a skill (assuming skills go to 100), you gain 'advanced' features. Like the reversal of disarms, etc.

I'd like if more skills had something similar. After a certain point, you can scan with a penalty, while watching someone. With a high bash skill, you can bash doors into splinters, while invoking crim-code.

so.. I agree but NOT?

[Reiloth]

I wouldn't mind 'skill check' progression in certain areas/staff led RPTs... though the "Oooh we don't have a thief guess we can't do this" trope blows.

I'd almost be for the OPPOSITE of this, where after say 60/100 on a skill (assuming skills go to 100), you gain 'advanced' features. Like the reversal of disarms, etc.

I'd like if more skills had something similar. After a certain point, you can scan with a penalty, while watching someone. With a high bash skill, you can bash doors into splinters, while invoking crim-code.

so.. I agree but NOT?

IIRC, Staff can already do 'skill checks' and 'stat checks', or at least on some of the RPT's i've been on it seems that way.

There are just certain skills I don't think should be guild specific. Climb stands out foremost in my mind, but other sort of 'utility skills' that seem intuitive, or possible to try intuitively, rather than needing to have it on a skill list as part of your 'guild'.

In my mind, if your PC climbs a lot, they should learn how to climb. Not great, not a master by a long shot. But enough to get around reasonably well -- To go up, but probably not to go down.

In my mind, if your PC attempts to 'pilot' quite a bit, they learn how to pilot. Akin to this.

[Hauwke]

I have a sneaking suspicion this would lead to more dwarf focus along the line of: Bash every door in allanak

Or something along those lines. Which is sort of cool I guess.

[evilcabbage]

new focus: bash the gate into tek's tower.

[Molten Heart]

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[Inks]

Stop stereotyping Red Storm migrant workers.

I am not a huge fan of this idea for the reason of strength being powerful enough.

[Large Hero]

Personally, I've never had a problem getting past doors in this game. I use the skills that are available to get past doors. If anyone has a problem getting past doors, I suggest you use the skills available to your PCs, like I have always been able to do. I've had a lot of success with my methods, so you're not going to convince me it should be any different.

One method I've used is to wait until someone leaves the room that's behind the locked door. Then I track them. Or I use subterfuge to find out where they've taken the treasure behind the door, if I wanted to rob the place.

'Bash door' hasn't been in the game until now. Therefore, it shouldn't be put in. We should only use the skills that are currently in the game, because I have used them successfully in the past.

[Hauwke]

Yeah but... Its a wooden door with no metal parts. To be completely fair, its the subterfuge V run'n'gun in my opinion.

Basically, you got your man who can pick locks, he can do this quiet like, yep, super stealthy ninja skills.

Or you can get brawny mc beefcake with good strength, im all for it being only a fairly loe need for strength to bash a door in. He comes in and kicks the door in all clear as day.

[Desertman]

So long as bashing in a door incriminates you 100% of the time and more apartments get soldier patrols in them I feel this is fine.

[whitt]

Yeah... why should anyone need to play a burglar to rifle people's shit. 

[Riev]

So long as bashing in a door incriminates you 100% of the time and more apartments get soldier patrols in them I feel this is fine.

I'd be down for no entryway guards, 100% incriminate for bashing a door, and soldiers who patrol the halls with regularity.

The question would be... so you bashed the door in. Probably broke the lock. How does that "get fixed"?

(ICly, I'd assume Nenyuk would pay for increased patrols in their buildings, if replacing doors started getting costly.)

[lostinspace]

I'm completely against any door bashing, because it gives the only reason to roll a Burgalar (my favorite guild by far because it can go places others can't) to EVERYONE with access to the most optimized stat in the game. Now if you wanted to add some sort of wisdom based skill with a timer that lets you search for hidden characters, that's fine. Only 2 guilds are without scan anyways. Also I assume that the people patrolling Nenyuk's apartments would be Nenyuk employed soldiers, and as such they would respond to you destroying Nenyuk property with lethal force, as opposed to detainment.

[solera]

I got visited by a Nenyuk with a half giant, when I tried to bash down a door with a glasshacker and a sniff of spice. So, yes. Talked or paid my way out of it.

[Large Hero]

I'm completely against any door bashing, because it gives the only reason to roll a Burgalar (my favorite guild by far because it can go places others can't) to EVERYONE with access to the most optimized stat in the game. Now if you wanted to add some sort of wisdom based skill with a timer that lets you search for hidden characters, that's fine. Only 2 guilds are without scan anyways. Also I assume that the people patrolling Nenyuk's apartments would be Nenyuk employed soldiers, and as such they would respond to you destroying Nenyuk property with lethal force, as opposed to detainment.

I think that options that realistically should be options, like being able to bash a door down, should be looked at and put into the game if codedly feasible.

Rather than worry about very narrowly-defined classes having their roles trod on, we should fix those broken classes and make them desirable for other reasons.

[Molten Heart]

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[Reiloth]

Ideally breaking down a door could be time consuming (unless you're some kind of half-giant) and make a lot of noise, alerting most other people in the building. Depending on how long it took to break down the door, maybe Nenyuk would offer rewards for anyone who helped catch any vandals identified while escaping. This would let the players police any problems that might get out of hand.

That, and setting difficulties of doors so they aren't easily bashed in by every Tom, Dick, and Harry would alleviate the problem somewhat.

Patrolling soldiers in Apartments, why not. I'm a proponent of doing away with the 'wanted code' and instead having Soldier PCs and NPCs apply it, if they are around. Having crime draw soldiers to your area, either slowly or quickly, makes sense too. It's been reported, so they start to come there. If you are bashing in a door repeatedly, guess what, a soldier's going to probably take you in.

Obviously, most coveted entrances are guarded anyways, so picking/bashing them in rarely happens as it is.

[Hauwke]

To be very clear, I would like to see it as a low strength requirement so that even those pesky elves who got super lucky could do it. We are talking wooden doors after all with no metal reinforcement.

I read somewhere in the earlier posts about the reinforcing the door with people, and that would drain stamina each time.

Yeah do that with bashing it in, put a huge stamina spike on it, something heavy so you cant just run in and grab the heaviest stuff and drag it out (not that you should be doing that anyway) because you are tired.

[lostinspace]

I'm completely against any door bashing, because it gives the only reason to roll a Burglar (my favorite guild by far because it can go places others can't) to EVERYONE with access to the most optimized stat in the game. Now if you wanted to add some sort of wisdom based skill with a timer that lets you search for hidden characters, that's fine. Only 2 guilds are without scan anyways. Also I assume that the people patrolling Nenyuk's apartments would be Nenyuk employed soldiers, and as such they would respond to you destroying Nenyuk property with lethal force, as opposed to detainment.

I think that options that realistically should be options, like being able to bash a door down, should be looked at and put into the game if codedly feasible.

Rather than worry about very narrowly-defined classes having their roles trod on, we should fix those broken classes and make them desirable for other reasons.

See, that's all fine and dandy, except there are already hundreds of things some classes can do and others cannot. I'm not arguing that bashing in doors shouldn't be in the game, I'm arguing that making it a generic ability that everyone can do is extremely shitty for the Burglar guild because that's like, their one unique ability. Now, if it's tied to the actual bash skill and you have to have a bash skill equivalent to the picking skill needed to open the door, and on a failure you knock yourself down and make a loud noise on the other side, that seems pretty balanced. Those hundreds of options that are 'realistic' in game now, if you want to do them with any amount of success, you need to have the equivalent skill, or in some cases you can do so without the skill, but you're just rolling raw stat without the skill modifier and should expect to be considerably worse (or in some cases completely useless) compared to those with the skill.

[Large Hero]

I'm not arguing that bashing in doors shouldn't be in the game, I'm arguing that making it a generic ability that everyone can do is extremely shitty for the Burglar guild because that's like, their one unique ability.

Yes, I know. My position is that instead of worrying about how 'generic door bash' would unbalance the system because it would make Burglars obsolete, we instead make Burglars more than the very narrowly-defined, poorly designed class they currently are.

[Inks]

I would argue that it would simply be shit.

[AdamBlue]

If bashing a door did damage to you, drained your stamina, and took multiple tries, I'd be up for it. Bashing doors down hurts like hell.

[Reiloth]

Ah, HP Damage for sure. I feel like many psionic abilities should cost HP as well as Stun, too.

More to the OP -- What other utility skills can you think of? Bash door/Block Door were just examples of ingrained abilities that anyone could do. I feel like Climb should be something people can learn with a modicum of success (Being able to easier go up than down).

Are there abilities you think should be based off 'Wisdom'? Endurance? Agility?

[Majikal]

I'm not really digging the idea of bashing down doors, some ingrained skills that everyone had though..

Climb to novice/apprentice.
Rescue to apprentice.

to name a couple.

[RogueGunslinger]

Bashing doors should be tied to apartment expense. Some are flimsy, some are impenetrable. Also, the weak doors should be able to be reinforced.

[nauta]

I'm not really digging the idea of bashing down doors, some ingrained skills that everyone had though..

Climb to novice/apprentice.
Rescue to apprentice.

to name a couple.

As it stands, people without the climb skill can still (after enough attempts) make a climb.  It sucks, but it isn't an auto-fail.  I might consider bumping it up a bit or giving more people climb, but there's a gameplay aspect: players with climb can escape more places than players without climb.

I'm pretty sure rescue/guard/subdue also work even if they don't show up on your list of skills, but again, the chance of success is very small.

What I'd like to see (to help newbies who maybe don't even know there are such skills to begin with): any skill that someone can do even if it doesn't show up on your skill-list (climb, rescue, subdue) should show up on your skill-list, as either 'novice' or some other category 'minimal').

[Reiloth]

I'm not really digging the idea of bashing down doors, some ingrained skills that everyone had though..

Climb to novice/apprentice.
Rescue to apprentice.

to name a couple.

As it stands, people without the climb skill can still (after enough attempts) make a climb.  It sucks, but it isn't an auto-fail.  I might consider bumping it up a bit or giving more people climb, but there's a gameplay aspect: players with climb can escape more places than players without climb.

I'm pretty sure rescue/guard/subdue also work even if they don't show up on your list of skills, but again, the chance of success is very small.

What I'd like to see (to help newbies who maybe don't even know there are such skills to begin with): any skill that someone can do even if it doesn't show up on your skill-list (climb, rescue, subdue) should show up on your skill-list, as either 'novice' or some other category 'minimal').

This sort of achieves the 'extreme' states of Armageddon though...Invincible hide (if you don't have scan, you can never even have a chance of seeing someone hidden), climbable hidey-holes (without climb, you can try to climb, but you have a much higher chance it seems of crit-failing yourself into oblivion), impossible locks (without the pick skill, you are stuck in a locked room, even if the door is flimsy).

It's a sticky pickle, of course. Why should everyone be capable of doing what the other people can do? Our separation of 'guilds/classes' in a game development world that has moved mostly to skill selection stands out, both as a positive and a negative.

The positive is two-fold -- You are not your 'class'. A Warrior can be just as capable of an assassin as an assassin, if not moreso, especially with extended subguilds now in play (both mundane and magickal). Similarly, an assassin can be an Aide who never lifts a dagger, or finds other uses for the skill-set. A spy, for instance.

The negative (IMHO) is that people find themselves pigeon holed. "Rescue" isn't a game breaking skill, especially when it is at the level of novice or apprentice. But without the skill in your list, you will never succeed. 1/100, if that, I don't even remember if it's possible to succeed without it. Hunt? Same thing. Hide? Same thing. The idea that you can 'never' do something because you don't have the skill on your skill list is a little...Well. Huh?

That's why I at least appreciate that climb is -possible-, even if it's difficult, for people who don't have it on their skill list. If anything, I think all skills should be like this. You can attempt it, with a serious disadvantage, but maybe once in a blue moon you'll succeed.

[lostinspace]

While we're at it can everyone be allowed to craft novice to apprentice crafts with just raw wisdom and a ~25% chance at success?

[Hauwke]

I find guilds a little limiting sure, and you do provide some good examples there Reiloth.

I think there should indeed be ingrained skills, things like Climb, she be novice. Nearly anyone can climb a small cliff with proper tools and willpower. Things like bashing a door are somewhat difficult and I think it should definately be related to the Bash skill. But very loud and very risky. Eg if it fails you lose a bunch of hp and cant try again instantly.

In the same way cooking is something every one can do.

However, I do understand the concerns about Burglar losing its niche, and fair enough it could do that. But I dont see that happening if there are people patrolling the apartments looking at the doors and such.