Locked Apartments

[Reiloth]

Yeah, I agree with D-man here. I don't think the modern 'latch/deadbolt' has a place in Zalanthas. I'm already dubious of locked chests without metal components.

I'm not necessarily against having locks changed.

I'm just pointing out that I don't have a problem with how they work now either because I feel they make sense. (Maybe even more sense.)

Don't ruin this moment of me agreeing with you D-man. You're ruining it.

[Jingo]

Stop using the realism argument. Apartment killings are perfectly realistic. That is, they map pretty damned well onto real life. Conversely, stop feeling like it's metagaming when you or someone else doesn't want to set foot in an apartment because they might get killed. That's also perfectly realistic.

This.

If I don't trust you IRL I'm not going to follow you into a well lit alley much less a private room somewhere that you have a key to and I don't. I don't care if that room has fifteen windows I could in theory jump out of. I'm not going to do it.

For that matter if I don't trust you I'm not going to follow you anywhere.

If someone tricks you into following them in-game to a room they have a key to and you do not and kills you, well, they didn't twink you, they just outsmarted you, which hurts, but is the truth.

No. Stop making it sound like it's a clever a tactic. It's not, it's a lame way for lame players to get the upper hand.

They didn't outsmart me. They took advantage of my good faith that they wanted to develop a story rather than win a fucking video game.

[Yam]

Just treat apartments as death traps ICly. Because that's what they are.

[Reiloth]

"Yolanda rented another death trap. This one's off Stonecarver's"

"Yeesh, those are the -worst- death traps. Just -stinky!"

"Have you gone over yet?"

"Over my dead body, literally!"

"Yeah, i've resisted her tempting offers so far. Though, she says she has some nice brandy..."

"Don't do it, man. It's an -apartment-."

[Jingo]

Just treat apartments as death traps ICly. Because that's what they are.

Pretty much anywhere you can be trapped. Compounds, estates, meeting rooms. All death traps. Templars are basically moving death traps. Funny that I completely avoid all of them now.

Try not to fall into the trap of presuming the worst so never bothering and trying anything, or not keeping to the same standard of play as you're wanting from others. The game works best when giving each other the benefit of the doubt and keeping IG stuff IG - including not dismissing IC actions as OOC on the part of the other player.

I wish I could just play the game this way. God damn I wish.

But this is zero sum Armageddon.

[Yam]

"Yolanda rented another death trap. This one's off Stonecarver's"

"Yeesh, those are the -worst- death traps. Just -stinky!"

"Have you gone over yet?"

"Over my dead body, literally!"

"Yeah, i've resisted her tempting offers so far. Though, she says she has some nice brandy..."

"Don't do it, man. It's an -apartment-."

Basically yes. Unless my PCs trust someone with their life or are arrogant enough that they think they can take on the inviter (and all their pals) they wont chill at their apartment.

Granted this is how I as a person would behave in, say, Damascus.

I don't see a quick or logical code solution to change apartments being deathtraps. There could be a shift in player culture to universally pan apartment kills as bad form, but I don't think that's true or necessarily good for the game.

The bottom line is that I think apartment/compound/whatever kills are legit. The killer should face consequences if they are caught. The one being killed should make necessary precautions for betrayal (like telling their friends where they are).

[Reiloth]

Yeah, I agree that apartment killings are legit. But they are the only legit way to kill people, in some people's minds, which I don't blame them for.

I think the fact that they are a work around for the crime code is universally true though. People do it in apartments because it's the path of least resistance, and offers a 0% chance of crime code to kick in. In places like Red Storm and Luirs, crime code most certainly means death. In Allanak and Tuluk, it meant being dragged off to jail if you had no resist arrest on, and weren't currently in combat.

In essence, a legit work around (even if it is 20 years old) is still a work around. It's the environment of choice for murder, where there should be more/different avenues towards murder/violence in a populated city. I'd love for murder to happen out in the open more often. It's sad that it must occur behind closed doors in order to avoid crime code.

For example, in a 'lawless' place like the Labyrinth, you do see people draw weapons on each other and attempt to stab the hell out of them, even though they know their victim will likely run away. It always felt more "Zalanthan" to me in that way, because people weren't arbitrarily afraid of the 'Wanted Flag'. Their characters would stand up and try to shiv you if you looked at them funny. It doesn't feel possible in Allanak proper, even though I really feel like it should.

I'd say 'Apply a chance of a wanted flag on someone in Allanak if they commit a crime near a populated area, including apartments', but I feel that just feeds into the binary nature of crime code. I'd personally rather do away with the automatically applied 'wanted' flag in a populated area in the city, increase soldier patrols, and have it occur naturally. Are there soldier NPCs around? If no, your crime is legit. Are there soldier NPCs in the next room? If it's a crime worth noticing (violence) they will likely come in and try to arrest you. If it's just someone shouting thief, there's a chance they take notice. Rely on NPC soldiers, who actually witness crime, rather than a blanket 'wanted' flag. PC soldiers, too, y'know.

I dunno. I just don't really buy the 'apartments should be treated like death traps' argument. Yes, they are death traps, when considered from a meta standpoint. I suppose Tisiphone is saying 'Even in RL, people's apartments could be death traps in various places in the world i've traveled to'. OK, that's all and well. I would say in 100% of the world, people's apartments are also considered places where people live and store their stuff. Could they be a death trap? As Desertman puts it, any place that has a door that locks and can't be easily escaped from is a death trap. It just so happens that in Zalanthas/ArmageddonMUD, that's analogous to an apartment. In essence it's a 10x10 box that has a door in it that is lockable, and accessible by Commoners, etc.

[Yam]

I tend to think the issue is more that there are wayyyy too many soldiers on the streets, that their subdue skill is too high, and that they seem to move->subdue without suffering from the lag a PC would.

[Delirium]

Not to mention there's like, a million templars as well as soldiers. Not as many, but still way too many.

[Desertman]

Stop using the realism argument. Apartment killings are perfectly realistic. That is, they map pretty damned well onto real life. Conversely, stop feeling like it's metagaming when you or someone else doesn't want to set foot in an apartment because they might get killed. That's also perfectly realistic.

This.

If I don't trust you IRL I'm not going to follow you into a well lit alley much less a private room somewhere that you have a key to and I don't. I don't care if that room has fifteen windows I could in theory jump out of. I'm not going to do it.

For that matter if I don't trust you I'm not going to follow you anywhere.

If someone tricks you into following them in-game to a room they have a key to and you do not and kills you, well, they didn't twink you, they just outsmarted you, which hurts, but is the truth.

No. Stop making it sound like it's a clever a tactic. It's not, it's a lame way for lame players to get the upper hand.

They didn't outsmart me. They took advantage of my good faith that they wanted to develop a story rather than win a fucking video game.

No, they outsmarted you. They earned your good faith through clever manipulation, tricked you, and killed you. Unless you are saying you intentionally followed them in knowing they would kill you and that they never fooled you for a second...in which case...you have no argument.

[Jingo]

Stop using the realism argument. Apartment killings are perfectly realistic. That is, they map pretty damned well onto real life. Conversely, stop feeling like it's metagaming when you or someone else doesn't want to set foot in an apartment because they might get killed. That's also perfectly realistic.

This.

If I don't trust you IRL I'm not going to follow you into a well lit alley much less a private room somewhere that you have a key to and I don't. I don't care if that room has fifteen windows I could in theory jump out of. I'm not going to do it.

For that matter if I don't trust you I'm not going to follow you anywhere.

If someone tricks you into following them in-game to a room they have a key to and you do not and kills you, well, they didn't twink you, they just outsmarted you, which hurts, but is the truth.

No. Stop making it sound like it's a clever a tactic. It's not, it's a lame way for lame players to get the upper hand.

They didn't outsmart me. They took advantage of my good faith that they wanted to develop a story rather than win a fucking video game.

No, they outsmarted you. They earned your good faith through clever manipulation, tricked you, and killed you. Unless you are saying you intentionally followed them in knowing they would kill you and that they never fooled you for a second...in which case...you have no argument.

I guess if Armageddon is just a game to be won, then you would think that.

[Desertman]

Stop using the realism argument. Apartment killings are perfectly realistic. That is, they map pretty damned well onto real life. Conversely, stop feeling like it's metagaming when you or someone else doesn't want to set foot in an apartment because they might get killed. That's also perfectly realistic.

This.

If I don't trust you IRL I'm not going to follow you into a well lit alley much less a private room somewhere that you have a key to and I don't. I don't care if that room has fifteen windows I could in theory jump out of. I'm not going to do it.

For that matter if I don't trust you I'm not going to follow you anywhere.

If someone tricks you into following them in-game to a room they have a key to and you do not and kills you, well, they didn't twink you, they just outsmarted you, which hurts, but is the truth.

No. Stop making it sound like it's a clever a tactic. It's not, it's a lame way for lame players to get the upper hand.

They didn't outsmart me. They took advantage of my good faith that they wanted to develop a story rather than win a fucking video game.

No, they outsmarted you. They earned your good faith through clever manipulation, tricked you, and killed you. Unless you are saying you intentionally followed them in knowing they would kill you and that they never fooled you for a second...in which case...you have no argument.

I guess if Armageddon is just a game to be won, then you would think that.

I'm sorry this is your opinion, but it is that and only that.

[Yam]

Stop using the realism argument. Apartment killings are perfectly realistic. That is, they map pretty damned well onto real life. Conversely, stop feeling like it's metagaming when you or someone else doesn't want to set foot in an apartment because they might get killed. That's also perfectly realistic.

This.

If I don't trust you IRL I'm not going to follow you into a well lit alley much less a private room somewhere that you have a key to and I don't. I don't care if that room has fifteen windows I could in theory jump out of. I'm not going to do it.

For that matter if I don't trust you I'm not going to follow you anywhere.

If someone tricks you into following them in-game to a room they have a key to and you do not and kills you, well, they didn't twink you, they just outsmarted you, which hurts, but is the truth.

No. Stop making it sound like it's a clever a tactic. It's not, it's a lame way for lame players to get the upper hand.

They didn't outsmart me. They took advantage of my good faith that they wanted to develop a story rather than win a fucking video game.

No, they outsmarted you. They earned your good faith through clever manipulation, tricked you, and killed you. Unless you are saying you intentionally followed them in knowing they would kill you and that they never fooled you for a second...in which case...you have no argument.

I guess if Armageddon is just a game to be won, then you would think that.

stop posting

[Reiloth]

Jingo's entitled to his opinion, just like anyone else posting is. Stop telling people to stop having opinions?

Yes, Jingo's clearly of a strong opinion that apartment killings aren't kosher. Many people disagree with him, but that doesn't mean he isn't entitled to think that.

He shouldn't be forced to agree with someone he disagrees with, the converse is true, this is what drives debate and discussion. People can be as bigoted and steadfast, or malleable and oscillating, in their views as they like and as suits their personality.

I will say that 'tricking' someone into going into an apartment seems like tricking the player, more than the PC. As i've stated, I rarely play PCs that are wary of domiciles. If they have reasons to be be mistrustful of a person, they'll sure as hell not follow them into shady situations. But if they've been lead to believe they're trustworthy, or that they aren't going to kill them in an apartment, they'll follow them into that apartment, ALA Majikal's reasoning.

Sure, I could play PCs that never go into apartments. I guess I find that playstyle meta -- Other people have justifications for it, and that's fine. You can justify your PC attitude with your Player Knowledge and lack of trustworthiness of the players behind PCs all you want. I'll have to take a tip from Darryl Hall and John Oates and say "I can't go for that, no no, no can do."

So -- I guess what i'm saying is if Apartment Killings are legit, then we should also not carry over our Player Knowledge of apartments being death traps, and occasionally walk into the trap. Does that make sense? Dunno if i'm being clear.

[BadSkeelz]

The only really valid tactic against perceived-scrub moves is to scrub right back.

Treat apartments are dangerous. Trust no one. Expect the worst. Yam made a good point that you already do this in real life.

Nenyuk Apartments are the Zalanthan equivalent to panel vans outside schools.

I've been trying to convince Jingo that trusting others not to be shit is the wrong move to no avail for some time now.

[Jingo]

Jingo's entitled to his opinion, just like anyone else posting is. Stop telling people to stop having opinions?

Yam's just a grumpy grump.

Last post. Super serious.

[Reiloth]

The only really valid tactic against perceived-scrub moves is to scrub right back.

Treat apartments are dangerous. Trust no one. Expect the worst.

I've been trying to convince Jingo that trusting others not to be shit is the wrong move to no avail for some time now.

It's sad that you think this of other players, but I imagine you've been given cause and reason to.

I tend to give players the benefit of the doubt, even if i've been given a few reasons not to. I'm either naive, or tenacious, I suppose.

I don't flee from raiders. I don't 'not follow people into apartments'. I don't consider Apartments death traps, because my PCs aren't structural engineers or aware of the Matrix and that windows in apartments don't open, etc. I don't make friends with Magickers because it's convenient. I find when detrimental things happen to my PCs, moreso than the 'good' things that happen, it's what makes Armageddon great, even if it means the death of my PC. It drives plots forward.

To repeat my mantra, I don't think Apartment Slayings are un-legit, or that people comitting them are bad players by any means. I think they are seeking the low risk/high reward option available to them. Crime code limits other possibilities.

[Reiloth]

Nenyuk Apartments are the Zalanthan equivalent to panel vans outside schools.

Lol. Very true.

Maybe Nenyuk should just start advertising as such? I wasn't being sarcastic.

If Zalanthan Apartments really are that dangerous, it should almost be part of documentation. Like in 'help apartments', it states that apartments are some of the few lockable 10x10 boxes available to anyone with enough coin to rent one. Enter them at your own peril.

Because while it's abundantly clear to Tisiphone, who's traveled the world, and scruffy vets like us, who've been murdered/have murdered in apartments -- I imagine a Newbie would be a bit head-scratchy about 'apartments = death traps'. In fact, newbies probably get murdered the most in apartments, because they don't understand the mechanics of *click*.

[Desertman]

There's a pretty good argument that if you are trusting other PC's only because you feel a moral obligation to "give the player a chance", then you aren't roleplaying correctly.

Either your PC trusts their PC, or they don't.

If they trust them, follow them in.

If they don't trust them, don't.

However don't follow them in because you feel some OOC obligation to act OOC'ly by following them in when your PC doesn't trust their PC.

If your PC trusts their PC and you follow them in and die because they fooled you/tricked you, then sadly, that's just the game and it perfectly reflects the incredibly harsh and murderous nature of the world.

[BadSkeelz]

I only go in to apartments with people I've sparred and I can be reasonably certain I can kick their ass.

If they fail to notice I forgot to sheath my sword after work it's their ooooooooown fault.

[Reiloth]

There's a pretty good argument that if you are trusting other PC's only because you feel a moral obligation to "give the player a chance", then you aren't roleplaying correctly.

Either your PC trusts their PC, or they don't.

If they trust them, follow them in.

If they don't trust them, don't.

However don't follow them in because you feel some OOC obligation to act OOC'ly by following them in when your PC doesn't trust their PC.

If your PC trusts their PC and you follow them in and die because they fooled you/tricked you, then sadly, that's just the game and it perfectly reflects the incredibly harsh and murderous nature of the world.

Ooo, Desertman, and I had -just- agreed with you!

Don't try to loophole me. As I stated, if my PC has a reason to mistrust another PC, they sure as hell won't be following them into an apartment. If my PC has reason to trust another PC, he isn't going to not follow them into an apartment just because it's an apartment. I'm not going to sit back in my chair and go "Well, it's an apartment Jim, I just don't know if I trust you -that- much."

Sorry, if that's considered 'Bad RP' in your book, we can just read different books from now on.

[Desertman]

There's a pretty good argument that if you are trusting other PC's only because you feel a moral obligation to "give the player a chance", then you aren't roleplaying correctly.

Either your PC trusts their PC, or they don't.

If they trust them, follow them in.

If they don't trust them, don't.

However don't follow them in because you feel some OOC obligation to act OOC'ly by following them in when your PC doesn't trust their PC.

If your PC trusts their PC and you follow them in and die because they fooled you/tricked you, then sadly, that's just the game and it perfectly reflects the incredibly harsh and murderous nature of the world.

Ooo, Desertman, and I had -just- agreed with you!

Don't try to loophole me. As I stated, if my PC has a reason to mistrust another PC, they sure as hell won't be following them into an apartment. If my PC has reason to trust another PC, he isn't going to not follow them into an apartment just because it's an apartment.

Oh that wasn't directed at YOU (or anyone). It was just a general public service announcement heh. We still agree with each other.

[Reiloth]

I didn't find your argument pretty good, by the way. So if there is a pretty good argument, maybe i'll change my opinion.

[Desertman]

I didn't find your argument pretty good, by the way. So if there is a pretty good argument, maybe i'll change my opinion.

The only argument was, "If your PC wouldn't do it, then don't do it.". That seems like a pretty good argument for a roleplaying game.

[Reiloth]

I didn't find your argument pretty good, by the way. So if there is a pretty good argument, maybe i'll change my opinion.

The only argument was, "If your PC wouldn't do it, then don't do it.". That seems like a pretty good argument for a roleplaying game.

The converse of course is, "If your PC would do it, then do it". Which is basically what i'm saying. I as a player might be like 'Don't do it Jim, it's a trap!", but my PC will still do it.

Pretty good argument too, huh?