Cats and Dogs

[Reiloth]

Alright, let's get down to business. This has been bugging me for 12+ years.

1. Are there common dogs (even if wild, and not domesticated) in Allanak?

2. Are there common cats (even if wild, and not domesticated) in Allanak?

3. Can PCs own/pretend to own a (even slightly feral) dog or cat?

4. If the answers are no to the above, why?

[Jihelu]

From what I know
1: I do not think Dogs exist actually
2: I do not think your average house cat would exist. Panthers, like in that picture on the krathis pic, do exist.
3: Since they don't exist lol no. I would imagine having a gortok, if near the north, would be fine though. Do remember you'll be play fighting/serious fighting it for dominance. I wouldnt recommend making friends with lions for pets though. Go tame a Quirri and pray it doesn't attack you tho.
4: Because desert life is hard.
Cat like:

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Kalich

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Rantarri

http://armageddon.org/images/biscuits_krathivengeance.jpg

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Quirri

Dog like animals:

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Gortok

http://armageddon.org/help/view/Bamuk (they have a canine like snout but arent really dog like I dont think)


I also wouldn't use the phrase 'cat like' or 'dog like' ic unless they do exist. Canine/Feline like works tho.

[Dunetrade55]

On the off chance there are cats, can I RP a catgirl?

[Jihelu]

On the off chance there are cats, can I RP a catgirl?

No one said you couldn't mutate cat ears like the otaku you are

[Pale Horse]

Alright, let's get down to business. This has been bugging me for 12+ years.

1. Are there common dogs (even if wild, and not domesticated) in Allanak?

2. Are there common cats (even if wild, and not domesticated) in Allanak?

3. Can PCs own/pretend to own a (even slightly feral) dog or cat?

4. If the answers are no to the above, why?

1. There are no common canine creatures in Allanak.
2. There are no common feline creatures in Allanak.
3. As there are no common canine/feline equivilants in Allanak, I would say that if you did, it would be either very jarring IG or you would need to be a PC in the position to own such a rare creature.
4. The felines and cannines of Zalanthas are of the tear-your-face-off variety.  There have been attempts at domestication, IG, and they have met with varying degrees of success.  None of the successful attempts have lead to the sort of creatures which would be able to live within the confines of a city without being hunted for the next meal or hunting the inhabitants for their next meal.

In the far distant past of Zalanthas, I think domesticated animals were far more common.  Animals like cats and dogs.  With the conditions of the world as they are, now, anything that didn't turn feral and adapt, fast, probably went extinct.

[Pale Horse]

On the off chance there are cats, can I RP a catgirl?

It's happened.

Forced storage happened.

Please don't.

[nauta]

I also wouldn't use the phrase 'cat like' or 'dog like' ic unless they do exist. Canine/Feline like works tho.

Beyond kalich, quirri and rantarri -- which are described as feline -- there is a 'statue of a cat' in the game, and also a <secrets> upon which are depicted what I take to be cat people -- although the term 'cat' doesn't appear.

As a newbie, I thought there were cats since there was this statue of a cat in our clan compound.

[Desertman]

Didn't read the rest of the replies.

Some people have quirri pets. They are exotic. They are sort of the closest things we would have to a pet cat.

Some people have had/probably still have pet gortoks of some sort. That is probably as close as you are getting to a dog.


I would be interested in seeing a multi-generation breeding program put in by some enterprising noble/merchant to specifically capture and breed in captivity multiple strains of each of these species while focusing on the traits that make them better pets.

Making them more docile/possibly smaller/less aggressive by breeding only those individuals who show those qualities over several generations.

Would be an interesting side-project for some noble/merchant.

In fact, feel free to steal this nobles/merchants/whoever. It can be something you work on/have people work on/hire people to help you work on in the background of your PC and their overall real goals. (Since it would be virtual in a lot of ways and not something you would really devote your main attention to, because that would get boring quickly probably.)

[nauta]

Some people have had/probably still have pet gortoks of some sort. That is probably as close as you are getting to a dog.

Winrothol (I believe) had a guard gortok in Tuluk last year or whenever, which I think acted pettishly.

[Reiloth]

I guess the confusing thing to me is the 'evolution' of dogs as scavengers, so becoming Man's Best Friend was born out of harsh climates and the inability to get food themselves, relying instead on the scraps of man. (This is a vague bullshit outline, don't quote me Stephen Hawking).

So in my mind, I don't feel like it's ever been officially addressed. Sure -- We come up with reasons why there wouldn't be dogs or cats in Zalanthas, and the reasons aren't bad ones. Harsh desert climate covers most of the bases (even though there are packs of wild dogs in many Middle Eastern cities, and even moreso in tropical/hot places like Mexico). They're even food in places like China.

It seems like a hole in the original game design that isn't a huge deal, so there isn't any official documentation on it.

It's also curious to me that a city can be full of rats without cats to control the population / balance the ecosystem.

[Raptor_Dan]

Rinthi's and elves control the rat population. That is why rat-tail soup is a delicacy.

[BadSkeelz]

I guess the confusing thing to me is the 'evolution' of dogs as scavengers, so becoming Man's Best Friend was born out of harsh climates and the inability to get food themselves, relying instead on the scraps of man. (This is a vague bullshit outline, don't quote me Stephen Hawking).

So in my mind, I don't feel like it's ever been officially addressed. Sure -- We come up with reasons why there wouldn't be dogs or cats in Zalanthas, and the reasons aren't bad ones. Harsh desert climate covers most of the bases (even though there are packs of wild dogs in many Middle Eastern cities, and even moreso in tropical/hot places like Mexico). They're even food in places like China.

It seems like a hole in the original game design that isn't a huge deal, so there isn't any official documentation on it.

It's also curious to me that a city can be full of rats without cats to control the population / balance the ecosystem.

Whenever I notice a hole like that I tend to chalk it up to Zalanthas being a post-cataclysmic world where the natural ecosystem or historical trending is out of whack. Maybe domesticated canines existed in the distant past, but they were all toy breeds unable to survive society collapse.

Gortoks are something a food animal in game, as anyone who's played in the North can attest. We're just not raising them in cages (or if we are, it's virtual and hidden even more than chalton ranching).

Roving packs of alley dogs would be a nice addition to the streets of Allanak, just to add a little more life and death.  Although I do think you'd have to address the problems with NPC soldiers first, especially their prevalence.

[Reiloth]

Rinthi's and elves control the rat population. That is why rat-tail soup is a delicacy.

I mean, in a city, there are a lot of rats. Traditionally, cats take care of most of them. A city without cats and only rats? Would be chalk full of rats, despite an elf/rinth's appetites.

It's one of things we have to either agree there are 'virtually cats' or there would literally be rats everywhere.

Even a Zalanthan equivalent would, I suppose, make me happy. It's just a weird 'plot hole' I see in the scheme of Zalanthas. Basic ecosystem. Which makes places like the Rinth or Allanak appear more 'cardboard' than they should be.

[nauta]

If we shift the discussion to: Should there be cats and dogs on Zalanthas?  My answer would probably be 'no', and here's why (basically the 'sandwich' argument):

I think the absence of cats/dogs as pets brings to light the the fact that we are in a very different world from earth.  We have a pet-seller in Allanak who sells all sorts of strange pets, which I think bring out how whacked out Zalanthas is.

We need to get rid of songbirds, tho' -- feed them tainted sandwiches or something.

[BadSkeelz]

Even a Zalanthan equivalent would, I suppose, make me happy. It's just a weird 'plot hole' I see in the scheme of Zalanthas. Basic ecosystem.

Roof snakes? They have to eat something.

[Jihelu]

I'd like there to be some actual 'semi sentient' pet like creature you can buy/have.
Like a rat but smart.

Think dog like intelligence but with Zalanthian characteristics.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd like there to be some actual 'semi sentient' pet like creature you can buy/have.
Like a rat but smart.

Think dog like intelligence but with Zalanthian characteristics.

They're called dwarves.

[Jihelu]

I'd like there to be some actual 'semi sentient' pet like creature you can buy/have.
Like a rat but smart.

Think dog like intelligence but with Zalanthian characteristics.

They're called dwarves.

I can't even disagree with this.

[Reiloth]

I guess in my mind, seeing a whole bunch of roof snakes would be way more jarring than some cats and dogs.

[BadSkeelz]

That's your reality-normative-chauvinism talking. The weirder Zalanthas is the better.

[Reiloth]

 

[BadSkeelz]

Kiddiiiiing.

Just trying to make the point that for here, "jarring" is good. It helps drive home the fact that this a different world than our owns. It'd be weird to see the first time, but I think we'd gradually grow immersed over time.

[Reiloth]

Kiddiiiiing.

Just trying to make the point that for here, "jarring" is good. It helps drive home the fact that this a different world than our owns. It'd be weird to see the first time, but I think we'd gradually grow immersed over time.

I think we could be a little more creative than 'roof snakes'.

[Jihelu]

Kiddiiiiing.

Just trying to make the point that for here, "jarring" is good. It helps drive home the fact that this a different world than our owns. It'd be weird to see the first time, but I think we'd gradually grow immersed over time.

I think we could be a little more creative than 'roof snakes'.

Someone has to keep the elves from getting up there, roof snakes is just the easiest way.

[BadSkeelz]

Kiddiiiiing.

Just trying to make the point that for here, "jarring" is good. It helps drive home the fact that this a different world than our owns. It'd be weird to see the first time, but I think we'd gradually grow immersed over time.

I think we could be a little more creative than 'roof snakes'.

They already exist, so it's reasonable to assume they're doing as real snakes do and eating at least some of the rats.

I've also seen echoes of tarantulas and other large spiders in Allanak - not "eight cords across" large, but closer to real life sizes. Something else to be preying on the rats.

Maybe kagors could establish themselves in the alleys or sewer systems.

[Reiloth]

Kiddiiiiing.

Just trying to make the point that for here, "jarring" is good. It helps drive home the fact that this a different world than our owns. It'd be weird to see the first time, but I think we'd gradually grow immersed over time.

I think we could be a little more creative than 'roof snakes'.

They already exist, so it's reasonable to assume they're doing as real snakes do and eating at least some of the rats.

I've also seen echoes of tarantulas and other large spiders in Allanak - not "eight cords across" large, but closer to real life sizes. Something else to be preying on the rats.

Maybe kagors could establish themselves in the alleys or sewer systems.

Now, Kagors, i'd be interested in seeing more of in the cities. Haha. They're basically possums mixed with badgers, right?

[Jihelu]

Kiddiiiiing.

Just trying to make the point that for here, "jarring" is good. It helps drive home the fact that this a different world than our owns. It'd be weird to see the first time, but I think we'd gradually grow immersed over time.

I think we could be a little more creative than 'roof snakes'.

They already exist, so it's reasonable to assume they're doing as real snakes do and eating at least some of the rats.

I've also seen echoes of tarantulas and other large spiders in Allanak - not "eight cords across" large, but closer to real life sizes. Something else to be preying on the rats.

Maybe kagors could establish themselves in the alleys or sewer systems.

"Kagors are badger-like mammals that inhabit the Red Desert. They typically hunt small lizards, reptiles, and insects, using natural camouflage to avoid detection by predators, such as raptors. They can often be aggressive to anything or anyone that seems to be a threat."
Now, Kagors, i'd be interested in seeing more of in the cities. Haha. They're basically possums mixed with badgers, right?

[BadSkeelz]

More badger than possum at the moment, but I could get behind a smaller, more possum or raccoon-like variety inhabiting the roofs and alleys.

Also, staff, it would let you interrupt meetings between PCs by having a ceiling collapse and release a bunch of baby ravenous kagors in to a room. Imagine the fun!

[Jihelu]

More badger than possum at the moment, but I could get behind a smaller, more possum or raccoon-like variety inhabiting the roofs and alleys.

Also, staff, it would let you interrupt meetings between PCs by having a ceiling collapse and release a bunch of baby ravenous kagors in to a room. Imagine the fun!

Or roof snakes.

[Raptor_Dan]

Rinthi's and elves control the rat population. That is why rat-tail soup is a delicacy.

I mean, in a city, there are a lot of rats. Traditionally, cats take care of most of them. A city without cats and only rats? Would be chalk full of rats, despite an elf/rinth's appetites.

It's one of things we have to either agree there are 'virtually cats' or there would literally be rats everywhere.

Even a Zalanthan equivalent would, I suppose, make me happy. It's just a weird 'plot hole' I see in the scheme of Zalanthas. Basic ecosystem. Which makes places like the Rinth or Allanak appear more 'cardboard' than they should be.

My bad, I meant to say elves, half-breeds, humans, dwarves, and half-giants, spiders, roof-snakes, vultures, lizards, bored soldiers, House Kasix's slaves and House Jal's hunters and gemmed who harvest their skulls, any and all people looking for quick cheap hides. Plus a good quarter of Allanak's player base, your rat-huntin' sons of bitches. This is excluding all of the virtual rats that we don't actually see represented by mobs.

[Yam]

Didn't read this thread, but afaik neither canines nor felids have been domesticated. I have seen both pet quirris and pet gortoks but they were 100% wild animals more akin to pumas or hyenas. Zalanthans seem to be extremely poor/slow at animal domestication and husbandry.

[Reiloth]

Didn't read this thread, but afaik neither canines nor felids have been domesticated. I have seen both pet quirris and pet gortoks but they were 100% wild animals more akin to pumas or hyenas. Zalanthans seem to be extremely poor/slow at animal domestication and husbandry.

What about the feral variety, within cities?

[Raptor_Dan]

Didn't read this thread, but afaik neither canines nor felids have been domesticated. I have seen both pet quirris and pet gortoks but they were 100% wild animals more akin to pumas or hyenas. Zalanthans seem to be extremely poor/slow at animal domestication and husbandry.

Guess we need more dwarves.

[Yam]

Didn't read this thread, but afaik neither canines nor felids have been domesticated. I have seen both pet quirris and pet gortoks but they were 100% wild animals more akin to pumas or hyenas. Zalanthans seem to be extremely poor/slow at animal domestication and husbandry.

What about the feral variety, within cities?

What about them?

IMO they are either 100% feral or they have been captured and broken to behave like modern day exotic pets.

[gotdamnmiracle]

Didn't read this thread, but afaik neither canines nor felids have been domesticated. I have seen both pet quirris and pet gortoks but they were 100% wild animals more akin to pumas or hyenas. Zalanthans seem to be extremely poor/slow at animal domestication and husbandry.

What about the feral variety, within cities?

What about them?

IMO they are either 100% feral or they have been captured and broken to behave like modern day exotic pets.

I don't know about you, but there are only a couple of bands of feral hyenas roaming the streets of Milwaukee at night.

As a minor derail, is that really what gortoks are supposed to look like? Hyenas? I always thought more like very large coyotes. Though I suppose that's the same thing.

[Lizzie]

There used to be a specialty-breed of "pet" called a curtok. It was bred by House Kurac from gortoks and currs. There were a litter of them, two survived. One was sold/gifted to a Tuluk templar, I don't recall what happened to the other. I don't remember if anything happened to cause the templar's curtok to no longer exist, either it was abandoned as "just another NPC in the room that no one pays attention to anymore" or if it got nasty and had to be put down, or stolen, or whatever.

There was also a "pet" rantarri owned by either Domani or Cidsarl Kadius - can't remember which one of them. As I recall, something -did- happen with that, I believe it displayed its nastiness and had to be put down.

[Beethoven]

Hyenas aren't really dogs--they just look like them. I always just imagined gortoks as looking like very large and very ugly flea-bitten feral mutts.

[Hauwke]

I personally envision a gortok much like a mangy mongrel dog, its a bit of this, its a bit of that, who knows what that bit comes from maybe a chihuaha or maybe thats a cat tail idk. Point is, I view them as vaguely canine but sort of wide and very varied features.

Also if someone could get a gif of that fat dog in the movie evolution that would be great thanks.

[Jihelu]

I've always imagined as a gortok as a really thick/large dog.
Not as big as a heyena but /really/ rough/thick.
The dwarves of the dog family.

[Hauwke]

Much as I dont want to agree with someone else: What Jihelu said.

[Majikal]

Gortoks are hyena-esque with locking jaws, at least per descriptions/echoes/docs.

[Jingo]

The honest to god reason why we don't have jozhal-dogs and quirri pets isn't because of any ic reason.

It's just because we don't like the idea of player characters running around with a dozen pet objects on their shoulders.

[gotdamnmiracle]

There's that elf in the commoner elven roof slums with a cockroach on a leash. We need more of that, I think.

[Harmless]

Give me pet fizzgigs!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1FCqDJMWgY

[bcw81]

I didn't read a majority of this thread, but in response to the OP:

There aren't dogs and cats. They're not mentioned anywhere. There are other animals around the city. Barakhan, snakes, rats, mice, cockroaches, various beetles and insects of varying sizes. If you look at the jozhal helpfile, it even states that rich people have them:

Jozhal                                                          (Animal Life)

   These small, desert-dwelling reptiles are hunted for their skin, which,
supple and finely scaled, betrays a multitude of colors.  Occasionally,
they are kept by nobles and wealthy merchants as pets, but generally revert
to their feral state if unfed. While not usually dangerous because of their
small size, they are scavengers by nature, occasionally taking smaller live
animals.

Or the helpfile for barakhan lizards from the old website:

Barakhan Lizard : These small winged lizards, usually colored in dark or sandy colors, are the usual source of eggs in the Southlands, where they are often domestically raised for that purpose. Some barakhan lizards are kept in cages as pets, since their chirpings can be interpreted by the ear as musical in nature.

There are options out there for people to have pets - be in the shoulder-wearable objects like hawks and lizards and snakes, or something more exotic. If you wanted an NPC pet, it's likely that you could work out a plot for a group of people to go capture you one, then another group of people to domesticate it, all while talking to staff to make an object or NPC for you.

[gotdamnmiracle]

there is a history of wild animals returning to being wild, however. Not only IG, but also in real life.

[Reiloth]

Again, though this is from a while ago, I don't see what animal is taking care of the rat ecology in cities.

http://www.livescience.com/18294-cats-world-died.html

"A 1997 study in Great Britain found that the average house cat brought home more than 11 dead animals (including mice, birds, frogs and more) in the course of six months. That meant the 9 million cats of Britain were collectively killing close to 200 million wild specimens per year — not including all those they did not offer up to their owners. A study in New Zealand in 1979 found that, when cats were nearly eradicated from a small island, the local rat population quickly quadrupled.

And if the rodent population shot up, this would of course trigger a cascade of other ecological effects. On that same island in New Zealand, for instance, ecologists observed that, as rat numbers increased in the absence of cats, the population of seabirds whose eggs rats preyed upon declined. If the approximately 220 million domestic cats in the world all bit the dust, seabird populations would likely fall worldwide, while the populations of non-cat predators that prey on rats would be expected to increase.

"All species have an impact," Beck said."



Also, a mildly funny article on cat murder.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill

[Pale Horse]

I didn't read a majority of this thread, but in response to the OP:

There aren't dogs and cats. They're not mentioned anywhere.

Playing devil's advocate, but there is (or was, not sure if it's been removed) a least one item IG that had "cat" in it's main short description and went on to describe what looked like the equivalent of a domesticated cat in it's main description.

Owing to the lack of such creatures in the game we actually play, I always played it up that it was a vestige of the "Old Times" that people still have a social memory of but no actual reference or personal experience to draw from.  It could even be that somewhere beyond the known, domesticated felines survived.

[BadSkeelz]

Again, though this is from a while ago, I don't see what animal is taking care of the rat ecology in cities.

Roof snakes!

[Reiloth]

Again, though this is from a while ago, I don't see what animal is taking care of the rat ecology in cities.

Roof snakes!

God damnit, Badskeelz.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm actually looking and finding a few scattered examples of snakes serving as pest-control. There seems to be one tribe in India (where cats are probably uncommon) who makes use of them.

[Delirium]

There are cats. Quirri, rantarri, kalich, kiyet- they're all cats.

Domesticated cats, now, that I doubt.

[Delirium]

RAT: considering the above, 'catty' would be more a compliment than insult.

[BadSkeelz]

Maybe if we had "Cats" to derive it from. I'm not sure that word even exists. The help file for the various felines describes them as "felines," and I don't think your average commoner would be aware of that word or the biological connections.

Too bad, as "Kiyetish" is pleasantly close to "coquettish." Though given their behavior, describing someone as "kiyetish" probably implies impetuosity and prone to falling from high places more than flirtatious.

[nauta]

Maybe if we had "Cats" to derive it from. I'm not sure that word even exists. The help file for the various felines describes them as "felines," and I don't think your average commoner would be aware of that word or the biological connections.

Too bad, as "Kiyetish" is pleasantly close to "coquettish." Though given their behavior, describing someone as "kiyetish" probably implies impetuosity and prone to falling from high places more than flirtatious.

Kind of a spin-off tangent, but I've sometimes struggled with some things in the game like 'cat' which feel anachronistic or non-Zalanthan, yet are in room descriptions (there's a room with 'bees' in it!), or sdesc of objects (there is a 'cat' object and it is made out of a very common material to the Vrun), or the smells/tastes (some smells list off things like cloves and cinnamon). 

My general rule of thumb: use common sense, and if in serious doubt file a report to staff.  But in general, if it is there in the sdesc/taste/smell/room description, then it is a word you can use.

Other examples: tomahawk, honey (I guess there was kank honey and there are bees), rainbow (some items do have this in their descriptions).

But that's a tangent.  I like the suggestion above that the cat statues are a vestige from pre-apocalypse days -- although I've also just taken them as status of quirris.

[Delirium]

Maybe if we had "Cats" to derive it from. I'm not sure that word even exists. The help file for the various felines describes them as "felines," and I don't think your average commoner would be aware of that word or the biological connections.

Too bad, as "Kiyetish" is pleasantly close to "coquettish." Though given their behavior, describing someone as "kiyetish" probably implies impetuosity and prone to falling from high places more than flirtatious.

lol seriously dude?

I mean, I take this game pretty seriously, but I'm still gonna say 'cat' if 'cat' is the word that makes sense.

feline = cat

rantarri = big mofuggin cat

[BadSkeelz]

I'm not sure I've ever actually used the word. I'll be curious to see what my logs say.

I actually do play those kind of word games to keep myself immersed.

[Reiloth]

I'm not sure I've ever actually used the word. I'll be curious to see what my logs say.

I actually do play those kind of word games to keep myself immersed.

Cat i've used, dog too. I replace things like 'boat' with 'skimmer', 'Whatever sails your skimmer', and so on. I do try to keep things in the universe, but it can be hard.

Rainbow is tricky for instance. Prismatic?

[nauta]

I let 'rain' slide (and rainbow) when people use it in expressions, like: arrows were raining down, or, heheh, it's raining cats and dogs!  (Ok, the last shouldn't be used.)

The phenomenon of a rainbow (or prism) would be known: water from waterskins and glass both produce these in the sun, although, yeah, rainbow is a tricky one.

[LauraMars]

I think it was Sanvean who once said that just because your average commoner would never see steel is absolutely no reason to reject a commoner pc application for having steel-grey hair. We're all humans. We all speak english. We've all seen steel and know what color it is. We've seen cats and know what they look like. We've seen rainbows and know what they look like. Using English words is fine so long as they aren't anachronistic. "As red as a shiny new tractor' is probably crossing a line.

I've seen staff animations of nobles owning quirris on leashes and other semi-domesticated "cats" of Zalanthas...Kurac bred those Kurtok dogs a long time ago too which were actually npcs (Tor ended up owning one). So high-class individuals owning semi-domesticated versions of wild beasts is absolutely not out of the question.

[Ourla]

Kurac bred those Kurtok dogs a long time ago too which were actually npcs (Tor ended up owning one). So high-class individuals owning semi-domesticated versions of wild beasts is absolutely not out of the question.

This is true. I had a PC who owned a kurtok too (worst guard NPC ever). It was a doomed experiment, but cool as hell while it lasted.