Men and Women: Flirtacious Bothering

[Beethoven]

I'm a female. As I said before, I play both sexes.

There are PCs who hit on my characters. That's fine. I do not need to be coddled and protected from my characters being flirted with, even aggressively.

Then there are players who seem to play the game only to get off, and they have put my characters in RP situations where they cannot realistically escape from being sexualized and used for that player's gratification. That's when I feel sexually harassed. When I dread logging in because I know I'm going to get sucked into somebody's sexual banter and games and I do not feel comfortable with it but ICly I feel it is not realistic to do anything about it, that's where the line is for me.

[Armaddict]

I'm just going to address this.

I don't have a problem with it because I'm #TRIGGERED or because I'm a feminist or anything like that.

I have a problem with it because I'd like to logon my characters that I made to be badass hunters and stuff, and go ten minutes without Amos telling me how big his dick is. I'd like to be able to breathe without some guy telling me how flattering it makes my character's chest.

I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.

I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.

The problem is that those who want to behave that way will of course be more forward.  I know that when -I- see your female pc, I'm not going out of my way to try and take her under my wing.  Because I don't do that for men either.  It's literally equal treatment from the majority of the playerbase.  It's just the ones that you dislike that stand out.  Because they -are- forward.  That's the very nature of the behavior itself.

Again.  The whole 'triggered' comment is being totally twisted.  I literally said that if it triggered you, it was never the intention, and you should ooc that it's not okay, and you should establish those boundaries.  All of a sudden you're upset that someone set a standard for themselves to make sure it's known they aren't trying to be harmful.  But they -are- playing assholes.  And if you're saying it's not okay to play an asshole who says outrageous things or wants to fuck, then we're kind of getting out of the realm of why this is considered a very adult roleplaying game.

No.  I don't want people hurt by playing their video game, but yes, I do want the game to maintain the state where shocking things happen, shocking things are said, and the world is noticeably, deeply scummy in comparison to ours.  Because it's not reality.  It's dipping your toes into a place where I'd never want to live, but the strife, the danger, and the oppression are real.  And so are the characters in that world.

The line is pretty clear. Keep your verbal abuse non-sexual and try to avoid sexist slurs. And then *dingding* you're in the clear.

Again.  This line seems to be coming from a real life place, not an in-game place.  If there is the risk of me harming someone, actually harming them, then I want nothing of it, and I want people to feel free to state that it's inappropriate behavior around them.  But if you're considering being offended harm, then I disagree. I've no doubt that this standard will vary, and that people will ooc about it not being okay when really it's just something they don't want to read about.  It'll happen.  And I'm not going to police it.

I like how you're jumping on the idea that I would actually let that option be there for me personally, but I didn't think it was such an extreme thing that it should occur often.  Like it's not just a mission to make it so that people have the option of it, you must convert me into being a fan of your point of view, as well.

[Yam]

Yeah. This is Armageddon. If I'm not free to make an obese dwarf named Gool who goes around attempting to nibble at the earlobe of every PC he meets and then whisper "I can smell that you're in heat" and then, once rebuffed, constantly Way suggestions of different sexual positions and techniques then I might as well play fucking HellMOO or something.

(im being sarcastic and this thread has become kind of stupid and icky)

[Kryos]

Beware the rabbit hole, beware the double standard.  Women can and will be just as sexually aggressive as men, will look at men as something to have sex with, etc.  It is not a one way street.    

But boiling it all down:  if you're harassed, male or female, on an ooc level:  report it.  If someone's bothering your pc, IC and it annoys you/them:  CBM, or just don't see that person.  No one forces you to play with a specific other pc.

[BrokenRomance]

I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.

I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.

This probably isn't going to change until men stop finding women attractive.

If you can figure out how to change that, then you will fix your problem.

Until then, you are just dealing with reality.

There's the thing. This isn't reality. This is Zalanthas, a world populated by giant bugs, elfs, and bald dwarves and then a few things from the real world.

I come here to escape reality, I don't want to logon and feel like all I did was put on some Zalanthas Goggles.

[Armaddict]

I'm a female. As I said before, I play both sexes.

There are PCs who hit on my characters. That's fine. I do not need to be coddled and protected from my characters being flirted with, even aggressively.

Then there are players who seem to play the game only to get off, and they have put my characters in RP situations where they cannot realistically escape from being sexualized and used for that player's gratification. That's when I feel sexually harassed. When I dread logging in because I know I'm going to get sucked into somebody's sexual banter and games and I do not feel comfortable with it but ICly I feel it is not realistic to do anything about it, that's where the line is for me.

That's the distinction I was making, though.  That's the difference between the two.  You guys just focused on the word 'triggered' and latched onto it, when the concept behind it is exactly this.  If there's something going on that is putting you into this situation of literal -forced- discomfort that is completely direct and targeted...of course that's crossing a line.

But some guy spewing out random crude pickup lines and trying to get laid in disgusting zalanthan ways isn't something that needs to be wiped off the face of the game.  I feel that women in particular, being set with it in real life, are very well versed in the difference and will know for themselves when that OOC moment needs to happen.  It doesn't need to be avoided.  But the crude man will always exist in zalanthas...and it's important that it remain thematic rather than a targeted thing.  But you gotta allow for the fact that some PC's really do fall in love or strong attraction with other PC's.  And that it's Zalanthas, and they may be trying to keep it from being a romantic disney approach instead of what feels more appropriate, to them.  A simple ooc can set things straight if it gets to that point.

[Beethoven]

Yeah. I for one can tell the difference. And it doesn't have anything to do with how crude it is.

[Norcal]

I'm just going to address this.

I don't have a problem with it because I'm #TRIGGERED or because I'm a feminist or anything like that.

I have a problem with it because I'd like to logon my characters that I made to be badass hunters and stuff, and go ten minutes without Amos telling me how big his dick is. I'd like to be able to breathe without some guy telling me how flattering it makes my character's chest.

I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.

I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.

Yes, this kind of play is annoying if it is continual.

I'm a female. As I said before, I play both sexes.

There are PCs who hit on my characters. That's fine. I do not need to be coddled and protected from my characters being flirted with, even aggressively.

Then there are players who seem to play the game only to get off, and they have put my characters in RP situations where they cannot realistically escape from being sexualized and used for that player's gratification. That's when I feel sexually harassed. When I dread logging in because I know I'm going to get sucked into somebody's sexual banter and games and I do not feel comfortable with it but ICly I feel it is not realistic to do anything about it, that's where the line is for me.

Nail on the head.

[Yam]

Yeah. I for one can tell the difference. And it doesn't have anything to do with how crude it is.

+1

[Jingo]

I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.

I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.

This probably isn't going to change until men stop finding women attractive.

If you can figure out how to change that, then you will fix your problem.

Until then, you are just dealing with reality.

There's the thing. This isn't reality. This is Zalanthas, a world populated by giant bugs, elfs, and bald dwarves and then a few things from the real world.

I come here to escape reality, I don't want to logon and feel like all I did was put on some Zalanthas Goggles.

It's not even reality. It's a sexist stereotype that's used to justify abuse.

[Armaddict]

Yeah. This is Armageddon. If I'm not free to make an obese dwarf named Gool who goes around attempting to nibble at the earlobe of every PC he meets and then whisper "I can smell that you're in heat" and then, once rebuffed, constantly Way suggestions of different sexual positions and techniques then I might as well play fucking HellMOO or something.

(im being sarcastic and this thread has become kind of stupid and icky)

Of course it turns icky.  It's people talking about sexualization.  It's a bunch of people with different ideas of what's okay and what isn't okay, and unfortunately, in a game where -all- of it is conveyed through words, the line between actions and words is less pronounced.

However, the rest of your comment is essentially just a complete...strawman?  Hyperbole?  I don't know, it's definitely one of those common fallacious arguments you learn about in any base persuasive writing class.  No one is arguing that the game isn't worth playing if you can't debase other people.  But it is being said that the rule being moved up 20 years after the fact seems to be because people are taking IC words as actual ideas that players are conveying to other players.   If we applied this same standard to everything happening in the game, we'd be having discussions on how harmful it is to raise children in elven households, the prevalence of violence in zalanthan lives, the injustice of templars and how it infringes on the rights of citizens, and everything else.

This topic, in particular, just gets more attention because it is far more charged because of real life events (I am in no way trying to undermine trauma and damage that can occur).  And so for some people, I agree, there is a definite exception to be made.  But others, it's because the happenings of IC are being taken a little too seriously and the players of that action are given attributes that are inaccurate, or they are white knighting for a moral that isn't even truly under attack...just being suspended for the sake of dystopia.

Once again...if it is a serious problem, ooc about it, and if it's ignored, then report it.  Staff will sift through it all and decide.  But I don't think we need to go to the extreme of 'no sexual advances are welcome in this game, nor are sexual analogies, or crude words about body parts, or shocking violence'.  

[Gilgamesh]

I'm just going to address this.

I don't have a problem with it because I'm #TRIGGERED or because I'm a feminist or anything like that.

I have a problem with it because I'd like to logon my characters that I made to be badass hunters and stuff, and go ten minutes without Amos telling me how big his dick is. I'd like to be able to breathe without some guy telling me how flattering it makes my character's chest.

I actually got so sick of constantly having to deal with every guy I met hitting on my characters instead of trying to do anything else with them that I tried to make a boy-like girl. It didn't work.

I want to logon and have a guy treat my female character like he respects her, maybe teach her to hunt without talking about how her hips look in that specific crouch or something.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but I get fed up with it. I've got where I actively avoid roleplay which makes me disgusted with myself because of it.

I can definitely understand that. I think a lot of people are in the same boat. But this is an adult oriented game with lots of blood and violence and even sex (Americans close your eyes!!!). But I still agree with you. If it's persistent with a particular character/player (however you want to make the distinction) to the point that it could be seen as OOC harassment (not just IC harassment) then you should put a report in. But not until you first ask them to cut it out because it is making you uncomfortable OOC'ly. That seems perfectly reasonable for me. That's of course assuming it's just repeated graphic shit and not just being creepy. If you feel that it's not enough to put in a report then deal with it IC as others had said. Cut his balls off. Or either you or friends (or both, because it's a bonding experience) beat the ever loving shit out of them then drag them through the desert on your mounts. And boom, they'll leave you alone (or retaliate).

The problem is making that distinction. And if you feel repeatedly offended at the actions of people IC then it's probably you and not them. And then this is probably not your game. Although I've definitely felt weirded out at the actions of characters. But it's usually more cringey stuff that someone says to someone else. I avoid MUDsex (If I get into that situation, I'll just fade to black). Have for years now. I think it's kind of awkward and not to mention absolutely tedious to do. And I'm not interested in writing a smut novel. But I don't mind harmless flirting or romance if I feel that my character would do so. But I usually have the other player initiate it and not me. If you're running around playing a f-me, then my character will probably walk in and check out out and think "Damn, he/she's a looker" or whatever and move onto whatever I was doing. And this is mostly because I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable OOC. But this is purely personal choice and people have every right to flirt or just be gross to you. You shouldn't be offended (I'm not saying this to you directly btw, BrokenRomance. Just in general) as a player. You don't know them IRL. Perhaps they are just normal, courteous people playing a character. They are acting.

What I think overall is that there IS a line that can be crossed that stops before rape. Rape is obviously were the line in the sand is pointed out to everybody and no one can cross. However, I think that a line could be set from repeated graphic sexual harassment by the same character. You then let them know that OOC. Tell them they are making you very uncomfortable and just ask them to either stop or tone it down a bit. Be polite and mature about it at first and come to an OOC agreement about boundaries. I knew a player who was harassed by another player IG through multiple characters so I understand it can be detrimental and make you want to stop logging in. Especially with female characters. I never played one to be honest, but I can definitely see they get hit on the most.


Anyways, BrokenRomance, I think you are just having some bad luck because not every male character I've seen IG tries to hit on every female character. Not even the majority do. And I've seen  (and had) men-women relationships that are purely platonic and based on either pure friendship or an understanding that their alliance is beneficial or symbiotic to their characters for some reason or another.

[Yam]

Armaddict, the point is that though some actions are not explicitly against the rape/consent rules we have, they can be pretty shitty from an OOC standpoint. You and Desertman seem to be arguing that it isn't the case at all. I think it's an absurd argument so I made an absurd counterexample.

[BrokenRomance]

Yeah. This is Armageddon. If I'm not free to make an obese dwarf named Gool who goes around attempting to nibble at the earlobe of every PC he meets and then whisper "I can smell that you're in heat" and then, once rebuffed, constantly Way suggestions of different sexual positions and techniques then I might as well play fucking HellMOO or something.

(im being sarcastic and this thread has become kind of stupid and icky)

Of course it turns icky.  It's people talking about sexualization.  It's a bunch of people with different ideas of what's okay and what isn't okay, and unfortunately, in a game where -all- of it is conveyed through words, the line between actions and words is less pronounced.

However, the rest of your comment is essentially just a complete...strawman?  Hyperbole?  I don't know, it's definitely one of those common fallacious arguments you learn about in any base persuasive writing class.  No one is arguing that the game isn't worth playing if you can't debase other people.  But it is being said that the rule being moved up 20 years after the fact seems to be because people are taking IC words as actual ideas that players are conveying to other players.   If we applied this same standard to everything happening in the game, we'd be having discussions on how harmful it is to raise children in elven households, the prevalence of violence in zalanthan lives, the injustice of templars and how it infringes on the rights of citizens, and everything else.

This topic, in particular, just gets more attention because it is far more charged because of real life events (I am in no way trying to undermine trauma and damage that can occur).  And so for some people, I agree, there is a definite exception to be made.  But others, it's because the happenings of IC are being taken a little too seriously and the players of that action are given attributes that are inaccurate, or they are white knighting for a moral that isn't even truly under attack...just being suspended for the sake of dystopia.

Once again...if it is a serious problem, ooc about it, and if it's ignored, then report it.  Staff will sift through it all and decide.  But I don't think we need to go to the extreme of 'no sexual advances are welcome in this game, nor are sexual analogies, or crude words about body parts, or shocking violence'.  

Once again, I'm going to address something.

My problem isn't because I take them seriously. If I took them seriously, you'd be in a thread with a very different me. I find them annoying, bothersome, tiresome, irksome, vaguely disgusting, and a number of other things.

My problem chiefly lies in the fact that there are people who will persist in doing this sort of thing to my characters even though I have expressed strongly ICly, and inevitably OOCly once, that I do not want it to continue.

It is ruining my enjoyment of the game. My enjoyment shouldn't come at the cost of your enjoyment. If you have to flirt, and my character doesn't want to put up with it, leave me the Drov alone. There are other girls that don't care about it.

And before you say I can just walk away, no it isn't that easy. I've had that people I barely know thing happen and I'm not just going to take Amosa to Red Storm because this loser in Luir's at the End won't stop even after I asked him to, threatened to kill him, and a number of other things.

[BadSkeelz]

File a Player complaint.

Making a GDB thread about it is literally the 2nd least productive thing you can do about it.

[BrokenRomance]

File a Player complaint.

Making a GDB thread about it is literally the 2nd least productive thing you can do about it.

Well, initially this wasn't actually about my personal problem with it. I was genuinely confused because on a particular level I consider it to be gender discrimination. It was when people started focusing on me that I voiced my problem with it.

[Dunetrade55]

I sexually harass everyone equally.

[BadSkeelz]

File a Player complaint.

Making a GDB thread about it is literally the 2nd least productive thing you can do about it.

Well, initially this wasn't actually about my personal problem with it. I was genuinely confused because on a particular level I consider it to be gender discrimination. It was when people started focusing on me that I voiced my problem with it.

If you think someone is violating the docs on gender discrimination: player complaint.

If you think someone is sexually harassing you: player complaint.

Making a GDB thread to discuss the issue is almost entirely pointless. None of us can judge whether something is or is against the rules: only staff can do that. If they believe there's a problem, they can go directly to the problem player and try to correct them.

Threads like this are just another form of vaguebooking. You're far more likely to just provoke defensive reactions from players who (perhaps subconsciously) fear that they're the mystery transgressors because they share some of the behavior described, kicking off a spiral of poor justifications and rules lawyering that inevitably devolve in to personal petty swipes.

If you see something you think is a problem, file a player complaint. Let staff sort it out.

[Malken]

Hey BrokenRomance, I feel like you are overly exaggerating to make your point or pretty much every male players on Armageddon are creepy as hell and no matter what you say will correct that.

Like if every single male characters you meet in game constantly hit on you like you say then it's pretty hopeless.

[Jingo]

File a Player complaint.

Making a GDB thread about it is literally the 2nd least productive thing you can do about it.

Well, initially this wasn't actually about my personal problem with it. I was genuinely confused because on a particular level I consider it to be gender discrimination. It was when people started focusing on me that I voiced my problem with it.

If you think someone is violating the docs on gender discrimination: player complaint.

If you think someone is sexually harassing you: player complaint.

Making a GDB thread to discuss the issue is almost entirely pointless. None of us can judge whether something is or is against the rules: only staff can do that. If they believe there's a problem, they can go directly to the problem player and try to correct them.

Threads like this are just another form of vaguebooking. You're far more likely to just provoke defensive reactions from players who (perhaps subconsciously) fear that they're the mystery transgressors because they share some of the behavior described, kicking off a spiral of poor justifications and rules lawyering that inevitably devolve in to personal petty swipes.

If you see something you think is a problem, file a player complaint. Let staff sort it out.

At the very least posting in the thread allows us to check the regressive voices with our own. I wouldn't want fresh players to think some of these things are acceptable.

[BrokenRomance]

Hey BrokenRomance, I feel like you are overly exaggerating to make your point or pretty much every male players on Armageddon are creepy as hell and no matter what you say will correct that.

Like if every single male characters you meet in game constantly hit on you like you say then it's pretty hopeless.

Alright. I'm going to lay this out. I have had six PCs. All of my PCs have been women. Of those six, the only two that did not encounter at least one of the kind of people I described were the delfs.

I happen to very much enjoy delfs.

And while I'm on the fact I enjoy delfs, I saw somebody pull the "if you have a problem with x, maybe Arm isn't the game for you" card a few posts back.

Please just don't. Put that card back in your wallet, use it for somebody who is talking about having an issue with every thing in the game instead of me, who wants to play a noble because I get off on political intrigue or a high-standing member of a GMH because I also get off on economic ruin and control. Or enjoys delves.

I'm going to stop replying though, because I am no longer capable of being civil after this post.

[BadSkeelz]

I'd buy that argument, Jingo, if this thread began with the question "Why don't these PCs I flirt with put out?" The "regressive voices" only rise up when someone calls them on it. Maybe it feels good to combat, but I'd rather people filed complaints so actual disciplinary action could be taken.

As someone who plays sexually-vocal PCs I'd a thousand times prefer to be told straight up, either by a player or by staff, if I'm crossing someone's personal line. Not knowing I am but knowing that my behavior could just leaves me on eggshells.

[Dunetrade55]

What's crossing the line, though? All this thread does, is as someone else said, is make people who aren't the source of your problem nervous about upsetting someone. Zalanthas is not your modern-day workplace. It's a brutal crapsack world where a shitty death, and being forgotten, are inevitable. You know what pisses me off? When someone kills my PC. Which, happens, frequently enough. I can't just OOC: Hey, could you disengage? Because I'm kind of enjoying my character.

I can submit a complaint, and I can tell you right now what the response would be. Zalanthas is a harsh post-apocalyptic world where you could be murdered for even a sip of water. If you can't get used to the idea, then perhaps this is not the game for you.

[Armaddict]

Armaddict, the point is that though some actions are not explicitly against the rape/consent rules we have, they can be pretty shitty from an OOC standpoint. You and Desertman seem to be arguing that it isn't the case at all. I think it's an absurd argument so I made an absurd counterexample.

...I think I've put enough qualifiers in every post of mine to say confidently that I never asserted that this was not a problem.  What I said was that the extreme, the complete evaporation of it, was an overreaction and that I saw no problems with reporting someone -after- you give them the heads up ooc, and that in some cases, there was likely some oversensitivity.  I've played very sexually active characters.  Some of them have been rough.  Some have been romantic.  I've never gone into it with a sense of entitlement of 'this is armageddon and that's how this will be'.  I never played a rape plot, pre-rape-rule.

If someone being persistent is the problem, then that seems to be exactly fitting the criteria I laid out for an acceptable justification for a report.  If someone is being overly assertive and targeting you hard with sexually -violent- behavior, or hinting at it, that would be acceptable justification by all the criteria I put up.

The only qualifier I put up was that in the case that you're upset that someone doesn't want to give up on a character's love interest, but isn't being particularly harsh about it, that's not the same thing.  If someone is being sexually crude, but not targeting anyone in particular with it, particularly not someone who doesn't mind, then that's not the same thing.  Again, I feel like I'm not saying anything archaic about it; I think women in particular very much know the distinction I'm trying to make.  If these last two characteristics are what is being deemed as abusive, then that is what I'm referring to as oversensitive.

It is ruining my enjoyment of the game. My enjoyment shouldn't come at the cost of your enjoyment. If you have to flirt, and my character doesn't want to put up with it, leave me the Drov alone. There are other girls that don't care about it.

Again, I never said it should.  However, this same statement works in reverse.  Don't start asserting that everyone's character needs to walk around on eggshells (to mirror Skeelz's mention of 'how it feels') about saying sexual things in a rated MA (Mature Audiences) if you can't be mature about some people talking about different things than you might want to hear in any particular case.  In those scenarios above, the lines of where OOC discussion becomes more prominent than IC integrity are pretty clearly outlined.  You can agree or disagree with them, but I feel that they're in a very good medium point to the effect that you making the suggestion that I can't follow those lines would be overcompensating at the expense of the adult game I've been able to handle just fine.  And that's with me, a completely straight man, being hit on by male PC's, sometimes even aggressively.  I kept the game world in mind, kept it in stride, but made sure to make it clear it wasn't going to happen.  Sometimes it persisted until they died, sometimes it didn't.  But the guy playing a guy into men who had fixated on mine wasn't some sort of violence on my roleplaying game.  It was something that I sometimes played with, sometimes ignored, and never took it as some dude deciding I shouldn't enjoy my game.  I certainly could have thought of it that way though.  And if they went to the point of going into homosexual sex acts playing out in my character's head, you can be sure they'd get reported.

That is my criteria here.  If those aren't good for you, I'm going to shrug it off, and apologize that you sometimes have to be exposed to things you don't like, because I don't think those lines are unreasonable for the roleplaying game.

[BrokenRomance]

I'm not going to be civil in this. In fact, I may be a little rude.


But it is completely hilarious that apparently, because I used myself as an example, this is now a thread about me whining about something.

BadSkeelz, you actually posted something in this thread when I first posted it that I agreed with, and I got it.

All I've done this entire thread is tell people what makes me feel the way I feel about something.

I am sorrrrrryyyyyyy that I have any sort of feelings whatsoever. I shall bow before this great knowledge that I shouldn't respond on a personal level to things that people have said whatsoever on this forum ever again. Because all that is happening is I'm being called a whiner for it.

I was genuinely, honestly, curious when I first made this thread about what was introduced in the opening post. And I received answers that helped me understand what I wanted to know, and then it moved a little bit into something where I said one little personal thing and I let myself  slip into talking about my own personal problems with this. I will never do that again.

Have a pleasant day, all of you.