Delayed Guild/Subguild choice?

[nauta]

Almost certainly an idea in need of refinement, and there's probably plenty of reasons to go against it, but I thought I'd toss it out -- Jihelu's post reminded me of it:

I wish you picked a 'guild frame' and then could add/upgrade skills you wanted better.

My idea isn't Jihelu's, but it stems from I think the same motivation.  Here it is:

Up to a certain time (say 3 days played?) you can go in and change your Guild/Subguild. (All your current skills would get wiped and replaced with the new ones.)

I've had plenty of times where I've either

(a) come to regret the choice I made upon realizing what the actual Guild/Subguild offers [although nota bene here that being perspicuous about Guilds/Subguilds in the way Extended Subguilds currently is would be a boon -- and I have a suspicion this is what staff plan to do] or

(b) owing to the PC population and how things happen while you are IG, come to get into a role IG to which the Guild/Subguild makes no sense, e.g., a Ranger that gets picked up by House Dasari as an aide, say.

The cons are the obvious ones -- extra staff work.  But perhaps it could be automated like change locdesc is automated?

[Lizzie]

I used to play a MOO that had "skillsets" and skill points. The general idea was this:

You can learn ANY skill in the game, but each skill had assigned points allocated to them, and you only had "x" number of points you could spend.

If you picked a skillset template, all those points would be allocated to specific skills, and those skills would have low "costs." Skills that weren't part of the skillset had high costs.

So for example:
You have 500 skill points total.
Warrior skillset comes with:
bludgeoning = 5 points
slashing = 5 points
dual-wield = 5 points
ride = 20 points
hide = 30 points
backstab = 30 points
magick missile = 50 points
magickally enchant stuff = 100 points
contact = 5 points
barrier = 5 points
expel = 10 points (you'd branch this through normal play with the warrior skillset eventually, but if you want to start out with it, it's 10 points)
some other mindbender thing that isn't karma-locked but is costly = 100 points
archery = 10 points
crafting silk clothing = 40 points

and so on.

Note: The above numbers represent only the COST to have each skill on your starting skills list. They don't represent which skills end up on them. You have to decide which skills you want - but if you want to play a warrior, the warrior-based skills will cost the least, and non-warrior skills will cost more.

You can spend those 500 points however floats your boat but once they're spent, they're gone. You can configure it however you like, as many times you like, while you're in chargen. You can even make tweaks to it while in the hall of kings, in case you change your mind and want "advanced" slashing and are willing to give up your expel (and earn it through the usual branching) instead.

[Jihelu]

I'd rather have, instead of leveling skills with more skill points, you just picked what you wanted and leveled normally.
Skills that would branch normally would branch from things they normally do.


Say you picked slashing weapons for (X) skill points, you level that normally. Though as a warrior, you branch the advanced weapon from it as a plus for being warrior.

Maybe you could even buy things like...

The ability to branch advanced weapon skills (I'd say this one needs to be COSTLY though)
The ability to have city/desert sneak (You still have to buy sneak tho)
Knowing how to read for some reason.

And it would leave subguilds being 'free' skills you don't have to worry about buying.

I wouldn't say magicky stuff should be available with a skill point system.
I think I remember reading somewhere that you could pursue trying to learn magick in game, though to say I've heard of anyone actually doing that even on an ooc level is cray cray, and would rather have it be left to that as opposed to: "Ayyyy I have magick from char gen"
However if this was only elementalism, think touched, that'd be pretty cool.

It would be like being touched only, mega touched! The mega being the opposite of mega because you're actually getting less than a touched sub guild.

[Delirium]

I'd rather do away with branching entirely. You get all your skills at the outset.

Radical, I know, but what (other than a sense of grind achievement) does branching really do for us?

[valeria]

I think buyers remorse would be less of an issue if the mundane guilds listed their starting skills and branch indicators like subguilds now do.*

*I realize that guild changes are in progress, but it would be nice for in the meanwhile.

[Jihelu]

I think buyers remorse would be less of an issue if the mundane guilds listed their starting skills and branch indicators like subguilds now do.*

*I realize that guild changes are in progress, but it would be nice for in the meanwhile.

I greatly agree with this statement.
Mostly the mundane part.


I believe spell branching would be a thing to keep as well, though maybe make it easier.
If nothing is a grind, no one has to grind!


Or something.
Idek.
Maybe keep advanced weapons as a branch but make them branch at advanced/mid jman

[Majikal]

I'd rather do away with branching entirely. You get all your skills at the outset.

Radical, I know, but what (other than a sense of grind achievement) does branching really do for us?

I actually suggested this in another thread. Nothing hurts me more then picking a guild that has to branch parry after playing a guild that has to branch parry. THAT is the only skill grind I dislike in this game and I usually lose my desire to keep skilling up before I hit the the needed marker to pop the skill. My skill shoots from novice to jman and then I'm usually buried in my char enough I'm no longer running around hacking things up with bone swords as much.

About the main idea of the post though, a delayed selection of a subguild would actually be pretty cool, of course people could wait until they meet buddy X and then select the sub which best compliments them could be a thing.. but then again, designing your pc to compliment your buddies ig is no doubt already a thing too. I for one tend to bring my pc's ig with some voids in their background, these things I end up fleshing out ic as my character develops. Someone asks a question, it makes me think, I respond and in that moment I'm learning something about my pc just as the other player is. These are how my pc's always tend to take shape, being able to select a subguild at a time of my choosing would be pretty sweet because of it. You'd also get the benefit of seeing things like apprenticeships becoming much more natural, player X asks player Y if they'd like to assist them and learn medicine, player Y can decide if their pc would want to learn this and if they decide to take the job, sets their subguild to apothecary or whatever. Could make for pretty moldable characters and characters that are shaped ig as opposed to out of it.

[Jihelu]

Being able to start the game as a merchant/whatever with tailoring as opposed to having to branch it would be a blast.
No more:
"I wanna join a merchant house, now watch me make (X) Of useless fucking material for about a week so I can branch the skills I /actually/ need"

[Norcal]

I would not mind seeing subguild (not guild) choice delayed.  Yet with the code as it is now, (at least as I understand it) Staff would have to add in every skill, making a lot of work.

I also think skill branching needs some work.  Perhaps not to remove it entirely, but certainly to lower the level at which it occurs. 

[Malifaxis]

Personally, I really like 'free build' style... I'd love to have something like that.

Just do away with guilds entirely, and have the skills be karma required. 

[650Booger]

Being able to start the game as a merchant/whatever with tailoring as opposed to having to branch it would be a blast.
No more:
"I wanna join a merchant house, now watch me make (X) Of useless fucking material for about a week so I can branch the skills I /actually/ need"

I think a skill bump spec-app should be called for here.  I like having to grind out skills to make them branch (conceptually, though in practice I'm only on my 3rd character).  I think it creates an investment in your character, causing you to be more risk averse.  And other reasons that I cannot articulate.

*edited because I can't be arsed to proofread beforehand*

[Jihelu]

Being able to start the game as a merchant/whatever with tailoring as opposed to having to branch it would be a blast.
No more:
"I wanna join a merchant house, now watch me make (X) Of useless fucking material for about a week so I can branch the skills I /actually/ need"

I think a skill bump spec-app should be called for here.  I like having to grind out skills to make them branch (conceptually, though in practice I'm only on my 3rd character).  I think it creates an investment in your character, causing you to be more risk averse.  And other reasons that I cannot articulate.

*edited because I can't be arsed to proofread beforehand*

The problem lies with you still having to branch the skill, as I don't think you can spec app/skillbump starting with a skill you branch. As staff might just say "You branch that" or something.
I do agree with the investment idea, but I feel like I shouldn't have to put in X hours for simple ideas sometimes.
"I wanna be a tailor without wasting a sub guild choice" I say to the game.
"Play the game for 30+ hours" responds the game.

[Lizzie]

Being able to start the game as a merchant/whatever with tailoring as opposed to having to branch it would be a blast.
No more:
"I wanna join a merchant house, now watch me make (X) Of useless fucking material for about a week so I can branch the skills I /actually/ need"

You kind of can.

Ranger/Burglar for mguild
Master Tailor for subguild.

Now you have all the "utility" skills you need to RP a believable 3-dimensional character, who has chosen to specialize in clothworking and related crafts. Bonus points: Both burglar and ranger come with a craft or two (in addition to cooking), neither of which are related to clothworking.

[Jihelu]

But then I don't have master tailor.
Is having to branch skills as a merchant the price I pay?


Actually, on second thought, probably.
I rest my argument, I'm wrong (Or atleast see a different side to things), heh.

[Lizzie]

But then I don't have master tailor.
Is having to branch skills as a merchant the price I pay?


Actually, on second thought, probably.
I rest my argument, I'm wrong (Or atleast see a different side to things), heh.

If you pick master tailor as a subguild, your character will come with clothworking right out of chargen (I believe at a level higher than novice), and you will absolutely be able to master the skill. By picking burglar or ranger as the main guild, you'll get many of the utility skills that "merchant" guild comes with, AND other crafts to mix things up a bit.

[Talia]

I'm not saying that I'm for or against a more free-form type of skill/guild system, or that anyone on staff is either, or that it's something that will or won't happen in the future. (NEUTRALITY FULLY ESTABLISHED.) But just one point--as the skill and guild code system works right now, it is an absolute bitch and a half to try to give PCs skills that don't come in their guild/subguild system, because (for whatever buggy reason) these skills sometimes don't stick permanently, or don't have the correct caps, or don't even maintain their current advancement level (oh you're back to novice again, awesome), and we end up having to set and re-set them and it's just a nightmare.

So, at present, the guild/subguild system is sort of both an assurance that your skills will remain in your skill list, and a limiter (my impression is that there's some bit of code that works to make sure you only have skills you should have, as defined by the guild/subguild). These coded limitations are at least part of why staff isn't generally totally enthusiastic about the idea of a free-form skillset--right now, we just don't have the infrastructure for it, and it's my impression that it would require a code overhaul of some magnitude to do anything in that direction.

[Jihelu]

But then I don't have master tailor.
Is having to branch skills as a merchant the price I pay?


Actually, on second thought, probably.
I rest my argument, I'm wrong (Or atleast see a different side to things), heh.

If you pick master tailor as a subguild, your character will come with clothworking right out of chargen (I believe at a level higher than novice), and you will absolutely be able to master the skill. By picking burglar or ranger as the main guild, you'll get many of the utility skills that "merchant" guild comes with, AND other crafts to mix things up a bit.

I feel that picking merchant/tailor is a waist.
So if you don't pick merchant but do pick tailor you can't master tailoring.
"Tailors can reach the level of advanced in haggle, dyeing and clothworking. They can also learn toolmaking to the level of journeyman."

[valeria]

Merchant/tailor wI'll allow you to craft cloth without branching up (and since you're merchant it will go to master). So... if your goal is crafting cloth right out of the box as a merchant, I'm not seeing how that's a waste.

You can also do a master tailor extended subguild if you want a non-merchant who mastercrafts cloth goods.

[Reiloth]

I'm not saying that I'm for or against a more free-form type of skill/guild system, or that anyone on staff is either, or that it's something that will or won't happen in the future. (NEUTRALITY FULLY ESTABLISHED.) But just one point--as the skill and guild code system works right now, it is an absolute bitch and a half to try to give PCs skills that don't come in their guild/subguild system, because (for whatever buggy reason) these skills sometimes don't stick permanently, or don't have the correct caps, or don't even maintain their current advancement level (oh you're back to novice again, awesome), and we end up having to set and re-set them and it's just a nightmare.

So, at present, the guild/subguild system is sort of both an assurance that your skills will remain in your skill list, and a limiter (my impression is that there's some bit of code that works to make sure you only have skills you should have, as defined by the guild/subguild). These coded limitations are at least part of why staff isn't generally totally enthusiastic about the idea of a free-form skillset--right now, we just don't have the infrastructure for it, and it's my impression that it would require a code overhaul of some magnitude to do anything in that direction.

WB Talia!

[Jihelu]

Merchant/tailor wI'll allow you to craft cloth without branching up (and since you're merchant it will go to master). So... if your goal is crafting cloth right out of the box as a merchant, I'm not seeing how that's a waste.

You can also do a master tailor extended subguild if you want a non-merchant who mastercrafts cloth goods.

Because you're wasting a subguild option for something you don't get after time.

Also I'm fucking stupid.
I forgot master tailor is a thing :l


Though I do suppose if the sole purpose of a character is 'tailor on tailor on tailor' merchant tailor would be alright.

[valeria]

< has done marchant/tailor and merchant/arumors moths

It saves you time. Depending on your situation and what you want to accomplish with the character, that might be worth a lot more than taking a subguild with skills that are different, but which you never intend to use 

[Jingo]

How about everything branches at journeyman EVERYTHING BRANCHES AT JOURNEYMAN

[Armaddict]

So, at present, the guild/subguild system is sort of both an assurance that your skills will remain in your skill list, and a limiter (my impression is that there's some bit of code that works to make sure you only have skills you should have, as defined by the guild/subguild). These coded limitations are at least part of why staff isn't generally totally enthusiastic about the idea of a free-form skillset--right now, we just don't have the infrastructure for it, and it's my impression that it would require a code overhaul of some magnitude to do anything in that direction.

Thanks for the reminder.  This has been said several times in the past for some things like this and crimcode to let us know that it was actually a far bigger project than people were giving it credit for.

However...for insight, is it difficult to shift branching values?  There have been several discussions where a good amount of consensus has been reached in certain areas regarding levels that skills branch at, and it seems like it would be far easier to implement.

[Talia]

However...for insight, is it difficult to shift branching values?  There have been several discussions where a good amount of consensus has been reached in certain areas regarding levels that skills branch at, and it seems like it would be far easier to implement.

I've never seen this part of the code (I think it's deep inside DIKU), so I can't really say whether it's "difficult." I would assume it's not difficult for our coders who have experience with this code, but that doesn't mean it's easy or simple to do--analogous to how it's not difficult to create an NPC or a room or an object, but the number of keystrokes required to do so is staggeringly, ridiculously large, so the overhead for doing the task makes it non-easy.

There is also the question of, philosophically and strategically, staff actually agrees that skill branching should happen from a different skill or from a different value of a skill. I honestly do not really have much opinion on that kind of thing myself. And players may think one thing, with legitimate reasons, while the staff who are in charge of skill-related stuff have another opinion, also with legitimate reasons.

[Lizzie]

But then I don't have master tailor.
Is having to branch skills as a merchant the price I pay?


Actually, on second thought, probably.
I rest my argument, I'm wrong (Or atleast see a different side to things), heh.

If you pick master tailor as a subguild, your character will come with clothworking right out of chargen (I believe at a level higher than novice), and you will absolutely be able to master the skill. By picking burglar or ranger as the main guild, you'll get many of the utility skills that "merchant" guild comes with, AND other crafts to mix things up a bit.

I feel that picking merchant/tailor is a waist.
So if you don't pick merchant but do pick tailor you can't master tailoring.
"Tailors can reach the level of advanced in haggle, dyeing and clothworking. They can also learn toolmaking to the level of journeyman."

Master tailor isn't the same as tailor. If you pick *master* tailor - you WILL be able to master clothworking, and still have an entire main guild available for you to choose from. Burglar or Ranger I picked, because either will offer you the widest variety of skills (in my opinion).

[Beethoven]

Assassins have a nice set of skills, too, I've found.

[bardlyone]

How about everything branches at journeyman EVERYTHING BRANCHES AT JOURNEYMAN

Yes, please.

< has done marchant/tailor and merchant/arumors moths

It saves you time. Depending on your situation and what you want to accomplish with the character, that might be worth a lot more than taking a subguild with skills that are different, but which you never intend to use 

Have done this, and recently. 10/10 - no desire to go from novice to master to branch something I don't start with if I can get it another way. And if I want the skill as part of backstory/concept, the overlap is worth it to start with it.

[HavokBlue]

Everything branching at journeyman would make warriors absurdly strong.

[Jihelu]

Everything but advanced weapons branching at jman.
Would make warrior still strong.

[bardlyone]

Isn't this the part where people with the gripe about warrior grinding talk about how that would screw warriors over?

Like... I could be wrong here but I'm not a fan of warriors anyhow. Not enough variety or utility in the skillset for my taste. (I'm not a big fan of super combat oriented roles, so there's that)

Alternately, give certain clans an unlock on certain skills, with a cap at say, mid-journeyman, for skills the pcs wouldn't natively get, to represent shit you ought to know for your role.

Any gmh hunter: skinning and food forage

byn/scorpions/etc: kick and bash

the guild/jaxa pah/other sneakyish clans: hide and sneak

military, ie the arm, the fist, the legions (if tuluk should reopen): scan, bash, bandage making

salarr crafter: armor making, knife making, bow making, fletchery - after you move to full from apprentice crafter, unlock sword making, axe making, spear making club making

kadian crafter: cloth working, dyeing, cooking, jewelry making - after you move to full from apprentice crafter, unlock floristry, brew, instrument making, woodworking

kuraci crafter: tool making, fletchery, bow making, stone working - after you move to full from apprentice crafter, tent making, wagon making, rope making, armor making

Like... obviously that's not comprehensive and it might need retooling, but the clans you work for should, over time, reflect in your ability to do things. I know at least 1 clan in Tuluk gave you a skill just for being part of the clan, so it's not without precedent, and it's not something that can't be done. And it would contribute a lot to the guild system being less limiting in ways that give clans the advantage, especially if you say, unlock only a few of those skills perhaps, an need to lifeswear to really unlock good ones.

Just a thought.

[Jingo]

Advanced weapon skills should be reworked in all honesty. They hardly make much sense as is. Why do I need to be a crusty old vet to pick up a polearm? Knives and sharp blades?

[HavokBlue]

Advanced weapon skills should be reworked in all honesty. They hardly make much sense as is. Why do I need to be a crusty old vet to pick up a polearm? Knives and sharp blades?

If I understand the issue properly, this would require a bunch of work in a few areas. There are a whole bunch of swords, and axes, and maces, and spears, but very little to fill out advanced weapon classes, so for them to not be confined to the same three halberds and same ten razors staff (or builders or whoever) would need to do a lot of building.. In an ideal world, we could have warriors pick which weapon skill they want at chargen but this would require a lot of code work as well.

On top of that, making advanced weapon skills more easily available to warriors and nobody else would mean warriors gain a very significant combat advantage over all PCs.

I think it would be a neat thing for Ness and the gang to look at but it's frankly a niche problem and time could better spent on more pressing things.

[Jihelu]

"Alternately, give certain clans an unlock on certain skills, with a cap at say, mid-journeyman, for skills the pcs wouldn't natively get, to represent shit you ought to know for your role."

Staff has stated before that this is already the case. Though it may not apply to skills you don't have.

[Talia]

"Alternately, give certain clans an unlock on certain skills, with a cap at say, mid-journeyman, for skills the pcs wouldn't natively get, to represent shit you ought to know for your role."

Staff has stated before that this is already the case. Though it may not apply to skills you don't have.

We do have some standards for giving skill *bumps* (not skills necessarily) to apped-in leader PCs, when those skills should be reflective of the PC's prior experience. We do not give skills that are outside of the PC's guild/subguild skillset without a special application, even to leader PCs. There are some clan positions (e.g. Allanaki templar) which have a specific set of skills based on their clan/job.

Just trying to clarify as I think there is a misperception here.

[Jihelu]

"Alternately, give certain clans an unlock on certain skills, with a cap at say, mid-journeyman, for skills the pcs wouldn't natively get, to represent shit you ought to know for your role."

Staff has stated before that this is already the case. Though it may not apply to skills you don't have.

We do have some standards for giving skill *bumps* (not skills necessarily) to apped-in leader PCs, when those skills should be reflective of the PC's prior experience. We do not give skills that are outside of the PC's guild/subguild skillset without a special application, even to leader PCs. There are some clan positions (e.g. Allanaki templar) which have a specific set of skills based on their clan/job.

Just trying to clarify as I think there is a misperception here.

I thought/would have bet my first born child that what I said was basically quoted by staff somewhere on the forums though....
-shrug-

[bardlyone]

"Alternately, give certain clans an unlock on certain skills, with a cap at say, mid-journeyman, for skills the pcs wouldn't natively get, to represent shit you ought to know for your role."

Staff has stated before that this is already the case. Though it may not apply to skills you don't have.

We do have some standards for giving skill *bumps* (not skills necessarily) to apped-in leader PCs, when those skills should be reflective of the PC's prior experience. We do not give skills that are outside of the PC's guild/subguild skillset without a special application, even to leader PCs. There are some clan positions (e.g. Allanaki templar) which have a specific set of skills based on their clan/job.

Just trying to clarify as I think there is a misperception here.

I thought/would have bet my first born child that what I said was basically quoted by staff somewhere on the forums though....
-shrug-

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,26799.msg281033.html#msg281033

"4) Send in a separate request asking to be clanned and given instrumentmaking" - From Vanth on making a pc who is part of the bards of poets circle.

I don't know if it's automated or not but the clan conferred the skill for anyone who was part of poet's circle, and that's why the request to make a pc who was preclanned included it.

I didn't know that about the templarate. I was referring to the poet's circle, and thought being clanned it automatically conferred the skill though apparently it was just given manually post clanning.

Now I'm not sure what to think of the idea.

[Talia]

There are no automated processes for adding skills to PCs (other than a script that was/is used to set up Allanaki templars and which still results in buggy skills sometimes). Skill changes must be done manually by an Admin+. Yes, Bards of Poets' Circle is an exception, but has never been automated; I would put that in the "clan positions which have a specific set of skills related to their job" category, as not just anyone/everyone can be a bard--it's by application or audition only. What I am clarifying is that there is no situation where good ol' Amos can pay his 300 'sids to join Clan X as a recruit and be granted an additional skill because everyone in the clan just gets it.