etiquette in PvP

[650Booger]

Hello all, I was wondering what the standard etiquette is for PKing other players, in terms of roleplay.  Is it considered acceptable to go around killing other characters, who are complete strangers to you, without any warning or any attempt at roleplay?  what are the expectations?

[Jihelu]

Think about it from a character perspective.

There are a few ooc expectations though.
Most people don't expect you to just straight up kill them for no reason, though you can no one is stopping you, but staff usually prefers if you message them in *Wish all* that you are going to be killing them soonish.

If your character is a raider and robs people. Go rob them.
If your character is a serial killer who kills only women with red hair, do that.
You may/will get caught though.

"s it considered acceptable to go around killing other characters, who are complete strangers to you, without any warning or any attempt at roleplay?"
Icly? Of course not.
OOCLY? People might think bad for you if you don't have an actual reason, which there are few, but no one is going to go to your house and kick your door in.

[Tuannon]

People tend to spam flee as soon as you rock up, so take that as you will.

You might 'do the right thing' and not attack immediately and build a scene and so on. But people may and often do just leg it.

So yeah, I would say it would be on a case by case basis.

[Gunnerblaster]

Honestly, it depends on the situation.

If this is a character that must die, at any costs, then I'm going to have my character roleplay preparing for the kill, both physically and mentally, with plenty of inner dialogue because - When the opportunity comes to kill that character, I'm going to do it, balls deep, and give them as little coded opportunity to survive, as possible. So, unfortunately, that player will not get to experience some dramatic, drawn out death scene but - In reality, does anyone often get that opportunity?

If I'm robbing people or whatever, killing them may be an end-result of THEIR consequences but I'll typically try and roleplay the scene out because those are usually just taking advantage of a situation. A raider knows that, you rob a few commoners for some goods, not many people will (realistically) bat an eyelash considering the type of world we live in. If a raider is going around, brutally murdering people in whole swathes, even the militia can't turn a blind eye to it.

I say realistically but, unfortunately, some PLAYERS (not their characters) cannot handle being robbed. They'll make it their character's focus to hunt you down. You robbed them of 300-400 'sid worth of shit but they'll pay thousands to have your head brought to them. Players get butthurt and like to be little bitches. Sometimes, it's easier to just kill their characters for that very reason.

[valeria]

Hello all, I was wondering what the standard etiquette is for PKing other players, in terms of roleplay.  Is it considered acceptable to go around killing other characters, who are complete strangers to you...

You may murder complete strangers.

... without any warning...

You don't need to warn your victim in any way.  See below.

... or any attempt at roleplay? ...

No.  There must be some roleplay behind everything you do in Armageddon.  But just because you roleplay something doesn't mean that your victim has to see it or know about it.  If I'm a jealous, jilted lover, my lover might know that I'm upset he's boffing Aide Tightpants, but Aide Tightpants might not necessarily know.  If I >semote the hell out of my approach to Aide Tightpants, while >think'ing about how I'm going to kill him and >feel'ing all kinds of rage, there's a good change Aide Tightpants might not see it.  He might have no idea that I'm out to get him until my dagger is in his spine.

Thinks, feels, biographies, and roleplaying your triggers all also count as roleplay.

... what are the expectations?

There must be some kind of roleplay behind it.  If you're planning a murder and in a leadership role, you should inform staff in a report before hand if possible.  It's usually polite to wish up but I often forget in the heat of the moment.  AFAIK it's mandatory to do PK reports in leadership roles (where you give a brief explanation of who you killed and what happened) the day of, or ASAP.  I'm not sure if these are mandatory in nonleadership roles, but I do them anyway.

[nauta]

Also there's this from 'help kill':

Notes:
     The killing of other player characters (PCs) is known as 'pkilling.'
There is no rule against pkilling on Armageddon MUD, as there is on
some other games. Bear in mind, however, that mindlessly going around
killing things (whether PCs or NPCs) is frowned upon. You can, of
course, say that your character is a murderous psychopath, and thus
justify your character's actions; but if this is so, then you can expect
that your character will be treated like a murderous psychopath (viz.,
he/she will probably be hunted down and killed).

  If your character is about to PK another character we do ask that you wish
up to alert staff.  A simple 'About to PK Amos' is all that is needed.  We
understand that sometimes it is not possible to wish up prior to a PK but ask
that players take the time to do so, when they can.

ETA: Just saw this gem in the 'kill' help file, which made me chuckle:

The named person must be in the same room, and must be visible
to your character.

[Norcal]

Hello all, I was wondering what the standard etiquette is for PKing other players, in terms of roleplay.  Is it considered acceptable to go around killing other characters, who are complete strangers to you, without any warning or any attempt at roleplay?  what are the expectations?

Kill others as you would like to be killed yourself.

PK requires roleplay. It is not an option. No RP leading up to a kill will get you in hot water. I know from experience . The victim does not have to know about it nor anyone else, but at least use some thinking and plot about it beforehand. 

Log it all. Especially the RP leading up. If there is a complaint you will be able to show that you did RP.

Wish up prior to the act, letting staff know, and if you are plotting this out a while in advance, put in a character report where you state your actions. Of curse if you are attacked and end up killing someone, different story. Still try and wish up though even if it is right after.

After the PK, send in a PK report (character report)  giving a very brief explanation as to the why.

Don't PK someone who is link dead.  Bad idea.

If you can, make a show of it!  Give the person a wonderful memorable death!  Let them have some FUN before they see the mantis head.  You can do this when they crumple if you don't want a fuss.  Just remember some other person has put a lot of time and effort into the PC you are killing off.  So give them a show if at all possible.

If you Pk  numerous times, then expect to get attention IC and OOC.  Have a reason why, even if it is that your PC is a deranged blacklunatic.

[Miradus]

I have only ever been involved in one real pk in Arm. Can I talk about it? I don't know if I can talk about it or not but I'm going to.

I picked a fight with some random guy out grebbing on the basis of him being a southerner and me being a northerner. I started the fight. My initial intention was to either fight until he ran away or to run away myself, but we were both roleplaying out the fight pretty well and it turned out to be more fun than I had expected. It seemed like a close fight, but I did not win. He killed me, end of that character. I hope whoever that was on the other end enjoyed it as much as I did.

Out of the 60+ times I've died in Arm, that's the best and most memorable death. It's what I would expect from a roleplaying mud that allows for PK. I don't really want to play a roleplaying mud that DOESN'T allow pk. It should always be on the table as an option.

[WanderingOoze]

You Think, " I really want to try out this new sword."
The, hapless-eyed, innocent-bystander skinned man has arrived from the west
You think, "Perfect!"
>Kill man

[Delirium]

Wishing up prior to a PK is something I didn't know you are supposed to do, it never crossed my mind. I think that was added to the docs at some point since I've read them.

It makes sense, though. Protects both sides from silliness (a little).

I always send in a PK report.

In answer to the OP: everything Valeria said.

[Majikal]

Hello all, I was wondering what the standard etiquette is for PKing other players, in terms of roleplay.  Is it considered acceptable to go around killing other characters, who are complete strangers to you, without any warning or any attempt at roleplay?  what are the expectations?

Yup, murder death kill bro, just be thoughtful of your fellow players (man that sounds contradicting). Something for everyone to keep in mind though, when you make a pc, especially a codedly strong one, and they happen to be an inherent killer or your pc has evolved into a killer. Before you go around attempting to toss out the mantis head. Ask yourself what you're adding to the game. Pwning noobs just cause you can adds little to the story, if you're doing this to promote your own story (leave evidence, get other pc's talking about a killer etc) then I see it as breaking a few eggs to make an omelette.

[Ath]

I would say the best thing to have before killing someone is justification.  If your character would do it and you can justify it with some RP... cool.  Enjoy your bloodied sword, and those boots.

Now I am just running around and I find random PC A, all I do is type kill PC A, kill him, loot his shit, and then go about my day.  Where is the justification, where is the RP to show for it before hand?  This isn't what Arm about.  Now it does suck to be on the receiving end, because many don't see much of the RP and Justification prior to the kill command being used.  But that is why I always try to toss in emotes in my combat, even if they are simple.

The issue that many have, and I can see both sides of the standpoint, is when you enter a room with another PC, say out on the sands, and they immediately run away, no emote, nothing.  At the same point, there are PCs that walk into the room and immediately attack.  Both actions are fine, there can be easily justification for both cases.

[Dar]

My own personal rule. Mine and mine alone is whenever I PK someone, I must add more to the game's content then what I removed. So if I kill someone and robbed the world of all the plots and fun that this character provided, it's on me to put equal, or greater content back into the game.

But ... if I am paid to make the kill. If I am playing an assassin/mercenary role. Then this burden is on the person who's paying for the kill, not me. I'm just a tool.

Of course, anything and everything in the game must be roleplayed out. Including PK. But your victim does not need to be part of it. At the same time, if you think you can 'afford' to involve the victim. Do so, because as you yourself well know; dying sucks.

[Synthesis]

deranged blacklunatic.

[Dunetrade55]

It strikes me as kind of poor form to go around killing people with little IC reason for it, especially considering over the course of play many, many characters will give you very legitimate reasons to consider it. Other than that, go nuts, just, it's considerate to ask yourself Dar's question, and also consider if you're correctly picking IC reasons and not imposing OOC perspectives over your actions.

[Case]

Etiquette in PvP should be balanced against how likely they are to be able to escape or their ability to kill you and shouldn't be based on OOC considerations or prior character information.

I don't think PCs should be allowed to play random killers or psychopaths or whatever though. It adds little to nothing to the game and there's better ways to frame PvP conflict. Same goes for dwarfs with focuses that involve killing.

[Inks]

Yeah random killing isn't very good. It is just really shitty to do from an ooc perspective and will make people think you are just trying to grow your epeen.

I have had two PCs that have needed very little justification to kill (I mean their roles/personalities didn't need much to set them off ICLY), but I always have kept it IC, attempting to at least emote and say. That being said your victim will most likely be spamming flee (if melee) and keep spamming away once they escape. Sacrificing a combat command for a super lush emote would be a huge mistake. As an assassin or such I find it is good to prepare a pre-made emote or say, then delete it once you have used it.

Always have a reason IC, it helps with fleshing out your PC as well as helps the players you potentially kill come to terms with the sudden appearance of the mantis head.

Overall I have not felt hard done by PKs that have performed on me, and feel like our players are pretty awesome. Not much of a problem.

If it is IC go for it. People mostly won't just spam away if you are trying to rob them non-fatally and RP the dialogue at least. Just make sure to remember who they are if they do just zigzag walk away and murder them outright when you next see them without delay (If IC for your PC to do so).

TL;DR Our players are pretty awesome overall. I can count the number of psychopaths that PK'd without reason I have met on one finger. Not really an issue.

[Inks]

EDITED

[Dunetrade55]

One thing that gets to me is how some characters aren't malleable enough given the situation. It's like, yeah, Amos a few weeks back I DID try to kill you, but the current situation requires some mutually beneficial actions. Can we just get past it? Also, put that damn knife down. What part of we're both screwed if this doesn't work don't you understand?

Like, IRL, back when I was in the infantry on occassion some damn brute would try to strangle me or hurl me off something. Well, better luck next time, but we're still at work and on the same team, and there's zero fucking reason for me to pursue mutually destructive actions. Survival sometimes means working with the enemy. I don't like it when things get polarized for forever because boo-hoo, Amos tried to get me to eat poison. Big deal, you lived, you confirmed Amos is a shifty motherfucker who might try to kill you again, get over it. Like that time my grandmother IRL poisoned me, we didn't stop talking, or helping eachother out, I just never ate her damn cooking again.

I think sometimes it's ok to fail killing someone, and your intended victim is very likely to lash out as lethally if not moreso... but I think there comes a point where both parties have to realize, ok, this isn't working, maybe my time and energy are best invested in something else. I mean, Korean revenge flicks are great and all, but I don't want to live in one, or play in one. We're talking something as absurd as the plot of Oldboy, which was a pretty wild movie which has a plot twist that made me laugh my ass off due to the sheer absurdity of it all. Nobody I've ever met in real life has ever taken things to those extremes, there's always been the opportunity for forgiveness and redemption, no matter how slim and/or unlikely.

Most of you are very good about not making "kill amos" your go-to response for whatever wrongs seem to have taken place. Some of you are quite apt to use it, but good at staying IC and remembering it's a game we all play for mutual enjoyment. Then there's the extremely rare sort who feel like there's no way to reasonably interact with them, barring a few special conditions, and this, too, is ok, but there's a time and place for that kind of roleplay, and a certain crowd it appeals to, and it would make my experience, and those of others, much better if they were only sparingly out of their element. These are certainly realistic characteristics for a possible Zalanthan, but keep in mind most of us are just trying to flesh out our characters, get some development in, and pursue our more innocent plots with other PCs. When "that guy" is always in the Gaj, it makes no one want to go to the Gaj, same with Red's (always a "that guy" at Red's, truly terrifying place). After the seemingly senseless death of one too many PCs, I may just app a character that has an unreasonable fear of the Gaj tavern until the asshole ceases to be. I don't think I'm alone in this.

There's that PC you know you don't fuck with, because their connections/abilities are enough to get you cut down in seconds, but you have to fuck with them to develop the story, so you do. Most will play off this and lead your wayward ass back to your senses, but just a few will develop a serious "I'll never forgive you for this!" grudge, which makes me, the player, wonder why I was so foolish as to think I could ever include them in my roleplay. We want to see more conflict in game, then we have to stop suppressing it by immediately cranking things up to max, and engage in some slowly progressing sabotage and negotiation. This is not limited to socializing in taverns, on some level raiders, assassins, militia, thieves and what have you all have to face them, such as the raider asking themselves, if I let this guy live, is he going to realize I just did him a massive favor, or come back at me unceasingly? This is not a fun question to ask and is what leads to Han shooting first.

Etiquette in PvP? Well, I'd say, by all means, get competitive, just keep in mind there's more than just you playing this niche game, and we all want to get competitive on some level. Getting PKed can be a really interesting end to a story, but it has to come down to something more than, he spit in my ale and questioned my ancestry, kill amos. Just keep in mind the old ale-spitter is not worth more reply than finding something witty and biting to reply with, and go about your business. Chances are, Amos isn't that bad a guy, just, his mate died a month ago and he's still not over it. Give them a chance to prove themselves to you over time.

[Delirium]

The scruffy blonde man says, in space-accented sirihish:
     "No, actually... I was wondering... WHAT'S SHE DOING ON THIS SHIP? Didn't she try to kill us?"

The buxom, tressy-tressed woman says, in space-accented sirihish:
     "Please. Nobody died last time."

[Desertman]

I've never played a random psycho killer. I've played psychos and killers but they always came with a code surrounding when/how/why they would kill and it was always pretty specific.

MOST of my killers considered themselves professional killers and had specific guidelines that had to be met before they would take a job. Some of them enjoyed the killing and some didn't enjoy it,  and some didn't feel any way about it at all.

With that being said I like the thought that random psychos come up every now and then and are a possibility.

I don't think I have seen more than a handful that ever were truly successful enough to be a serious "ruin the game" issue. Most end up getting put down before they get to that level.

I think it adds a bit of uncertainty to the game and after all of these years I like the idea that an occasional wild and whacky wrench can find its way into the cogs of the machine.

[evilcabbage]

you must have me confused with somebody who isn't out to take their sword and plant it firmly somewhere between the third and fourth lumbar.

[Hauwke]

I think etiquette in kill amos is important but only in the sense that it requires a damn good reason and a damn good skill set to pull off properly. By skill set I dont mean coded skill (they help thoug believe it or not)  I mean rp skill

[Inks]

Don't just twink out and use code even when it would be ridiculous though. This isn't about winning codedly at all costs and players who think such are shitbags. So PvP etiquette I would advise: Just be realistic IC and the rest is a luxury, but being killed with no reason or emotes is shitty.

[Dunetrade55]

Yeah, if you're just here to grief it will quickly become evident to other players, and possibly staff. Not to say there's no Killer element here, you pretty much have to pick up some of the traits to survive, if you don't already have them, like I do. It's on you not to be a spawn-camping, teabagging 13 year old basement dwelling loser. I have enough faith in the playerbase the I will stop and greet people in lawless areas even where the could easily kill me... does this mean shit's soft? No, that I can do that means I'm not surrounded by teabaggers. Bottom line, use your brain.

[Riev]

One of my best PvP scenes involved going out to greb in the Grasslands, or something similar, and I was rolled up on by some Rukkian. I didn't know what to do, I think I surprised THEM, but they attacked first. I got the upper hand, but after a Reel shot, I disengaged and backed off.

Rukkian didn't spam flee. I didn't spam flee. We didn't just go at it like angry oxen. We stood back, breathing heavily, eyeing each other warily, doing other things adverbly.

Not all fights have to end in death, but the ones that do, I should THINK the player would have at least some idea as to why. I got OHK'd in public, daylight, in a shop once. My crime? I joined a GMH that wasn't paying its dues to another clan, and a message had to be sent. In retrospect, a cool way to be used, but at the time? Not even knowing why you got obliterated? That hurt.

[MeTekillot]

I've merced dudes for their gear in the city to sell in the Bazaar before without any real preamble than >think Bet his shit will catch a good price at the weapon stand. I didn't have to kill them, but 'get'ing from a corpse is a lot faster than stealing every piece off an unconscious/mortal guy.

[valeria]

I've moderated out a few posts.  If your posts starts with an apology for an attack on another GDBer, you might want to rethink posting it.  The second reason I removed the posts was that they were seriously off-topic.  See Rules 1 and 5.  Thanks!

[evilcabbage]

as an aside, the only etiquette you need in pvp situations is having a reliably good rp reason to be doing what you are doing. if you despise elves, and you see an elf, and he's alone, and you want to beat him up? beat him up. stomp him around. teach him a lesson. then tell him if he ever shows his face again, you'll kill him.

you might die because of that, but hey, it's exciting to put yourself in positions like that.

[Dunetrade55]

as an aside, the only etiquette you need in pvp situations is having a reliably good rp reason to be doing what you are doing. if you despise elves, and you see an elf, and he's alone, and you want to beat him up? beat him up. stomp him around. teach him a lesson. then tell him if he ever shows his face again, you'll kill him.

you might die because of that, but hey, it's exciting to put yourself in positions like that.

THIS. Notice he's advocating antagonism without going all the way just because you can, and this coming from a player who irritates me. He's dead right. If you hate elves, you should express that hate whenever it seems safe for your PC to do so, but you should always remember that killing indiscriminately does not advance the story, usually. So, you just cornered that elf, killing them, you deprive the PC of the opportunity, and yourself as a consequence, of RPing out the consequences of this encounter. Sure, you COULD kill the elf, BUT, wouldn't it, be more fun to let the elf go and see what they do for revenge? Hopefully, they'll be as considerate as you, and engage in some acts of sabotage that don't end in a mantis head, which can further justify your elf hate and drive you to antagonize more, which will get more in return. If they have any sense, they'll realize, this other player, while they were codedly capable of murdering me in a misguided attempt to "win" armageddon, simply beat the shit out of my PC and gave them a motive to get good, and gave me an outlet for my own need for conflict.

Hrrrrmmmm, that sure is considerate. Maybe I should try playing into their elf-hate plot, or maybe I should try showing them why they shouldn't hate elves. Regardless of which you choose, always be thankful when someone doesn't codedly fuck you right off the bat, they're taking a risk, whether raider, soldier, mercenary, mugger, in order to enhance your story.

[evilcabbage]

surprisingly, despite how you see my persona on the gdb, i am not a terrible player.

i am a cabbage.

i know all. i see all.

and i have good etiquette most times, unless you push me to the point where etiquette goes out the window. i will only be nice for so long.

[SuchDragonWow]

Not everyone who kills your characters is trying to "win" the game, Dunetrade.  Sometimes, they're just doing what their character would do or the situation demands.  I believe the OP is talking about indiscriminate, random killing, like the guy who backstabs NPCs on the road without any real reason, they were just doing it to twink up backstab, man.  Even a serial killing maniac has a reason to kill people.  The OP is not talking about that guy, as best I can tell.

To the OP, yes, I think you should always have a reason, no matter how flimsy, and you should try to roleplay it when you can, but it's not a requirement.

[Dunetrade55]

Not everyone who kills your characters is trying to "win" the game, Dunetrade.  Sometimes, they're just doing what their character would do or the situation demands.  I believe the OP is talking about indiscriminate, random killing, like the guy who backstabs NPCs on the road without any real reason, they were just doing it to twink up backstab, man.  Even a serial killing maniac has a reason to kill people.  The OP is not talking about that guy, as best I can tell.

To the OP, yes, I think you should always have a reason, no matter how flimsy, and you should try to roleplay it when you can, but it's not a requirement.

True, true. I don't see it much but it very rarely happens. Sometimes it can look random, but really it's not.

[evilcabbage]

good reason to serial kill:

an elf robbed my family until they died, so now i smile at elves in the day, and at night... i hunt them.

bad reason to serial kill:

god backstab is only apprentice time to go backstab that newbie that just left the gaj. yeaaahahahahhhhehehfewfhksjfj newb boots huehuehuehue.

worse reason to backstab:  wtf this mud sux

i think that should put it into perspective for everyone.

[th3kaiser]

I actually read that as wtf this mud sex and was immediately like no, that's the best reason to backstab people.