Scientific Zalanthas

[Hitsuchi]

There are tons of things in Zalanthas, the physical world, that don't make obvious sense or aren't really explained in the docs: Where do plants get their water from? Why are the insects so big? Is Suk-Krath really red, and wouldn't that mean that it should look huge, given that the planet is in the livable zone of it? Where could the Black Moon have come from, really? How do Mekillots actually get enough biomass to eat?

This thread is intended to explore such questions in a completely hypothetical manner, with healthy doses of scientific support where it's needed. I don't imagine this should affect things in-game, where it's often better explained with "magic" anyway, but for those who need it, it might give plausible deniability to these things.

I propose that Zalanthas has an atmosphere of almost 100% oxygen, but less gravity and therefore lower air pressure. This would support giant insects, as Earth has produced at least 70 cm long ones back when we had more than 30% oxygen in the atmosphere. This would be toxic for humans, however, at Earth's air pressure, so we would want pressure to be lower (equal to about 4000-6000 m altitude on Earth). This lessens the ability of insects to absorb oxygen (they don't breathe*, but rather absorb it through lots of tiny tubes called trachea), but might help them grow as gravity does not put as much of a strain on their bodily fluids. The same goes for our vertebrates - less power needed to supply oxygenated blood to brain means larger size is possible.

Potential issues with this theory: fire. Things would burn, a lot.
It might be standard gravity, but about 60% oxygen instead - just barely survivable for humans (any more and our lungs get inflamed and kills us).

* Technically, I read somewhere on the Internet that they breathe a little, but that it's negligible.

[Lizzie]

I propose that the Black Moon isn't really a moon at all. It's a third sun, created by the power of Muk Utep, but obscured in eternal eclipse by his arch-rival, the equally powerful Tektolnes.

Also how do we explain what is "beyond the Known?" It could very well be that the parts visible via maps are merely islands on a greater planet, surrounded by water (which might explain the source of various pools in assorted locations throughout). Maybe there are entire continents that our characters don't know anything about. Our relative isolation from the "beyond the Known" could mean that there are entire other civilizations out there that all read, write, have metal, maybe even electricity and indoor plumbing.

In fact - they might have satellite TV and are watching our characters live our miserable lives, as some sort of odd hybrid "reality/amazing animals" TV show.

[BrokenRomance]

I like this. Let's do this.

Where do plants get their water from?

Why are the insects so big?

Is Suk-Krath really red, and wouldn't that mean that it should look huge, given that the planet is in the livable zone of it?

Where could the Black Moon have come from, really?

How do Mekillots actually get enough biomass to eat?

I think all Zalanthan plants have evolved to be like most desert plant-like, and conserve water in portions of themselves such as roots, shoots, or even flowers.

I personally believe the insects evolved to such size for similar reasons as the plants. I think, and I can't actually prove this, that the larger your mass the more water you can intake. Camels are large creatures and they hold a generous amount of water for themselves, despite the fact that being smaller would suit them for conservation.

I think Suk Krath is red from atmospheric distortion caused by whatever chemical that causes the red sands being heavily prevalent in the upper atmosphere as well. It's also entirely possible to not be bigger and still be close enough for living, our sun isn't a giant fiery ball in the sky as far as I can tell, it looks more like a golf-ball lodged up there that happens to be a 55555555 kilowatt light-bulb most of the time.

I think the black moon is a giant chunk of obsidian in the sky. I don't know why, I just do. It makes sense seeing as the darkest thing we know is obsidian and it'd be an interesting plot for a giant rock of obsidian to be floating around Zalanthas.

I think they do like whales. Consume smaller organisms without even realising it.

[Yam]

There are tons of things in Zalanthas, the physical world, that don't make obvious sense or aren't really explained in the docs: Where do plants get their water from? Why are the insects so big? Is Suk-Krath really red, and wouldn't that mean that it should look huge, given that the planet is in the livable zone of it? Where could the Black Moon have come from, really? How do Mekillots actually get enough biomass to eat?

This thread is intended to explore such questions in a completely hypothetical manner, with healthy doses of scientific support where it's needed. I don't imagine this should affect things in-game, where it's often better explained with "magic" anyway, but for those who need it, it might give plausible deniability to these things.

I propose that Zalanthas has an atmosphere of almost 100% oxygen, but less gravity and therefore lower air pressure. This would support giant insects, as Earth has produced at least 70 cm long ones back when we had more than 30% oxygen in the atmosphere. This would be toxic for humans, however, at Earth's air pressure, so we would want pressure to be lower (equal to about 4000-6000 m altitude on Earth). This lessens the ability of insects to absorb oxygen (they don't breathe*, but rather absorb it through lots of tiny tubes called trachea), but might help them grow as gravity does not put as much of a strain on their bodily fluids. The same goes for our vertebrates - less power needed to supply oxygenated blood to brain means larger size is possible.

Potential issues with this theory: fire. Things would burn, a lot.
It might be standard gravity, but about 60% oxygen instead - just barely survivable for humans (any more and our lungs get inflamed and kills us).

* Technically, I read somewhere on the Internet that they breathe a little, but that it's negligible.

Things get kind of complicated if you start messing with atmospheres. I think a more plausible explanation is that Zalanthan insects have a different respiratory (and probably circulatory) systems than Earth insects.

[Miradus]

The respiratory system is the cause of water loss in insects so that would be the key.

One could posit that they breath in a chunk of air and then hold it for a long time, processing it very slowly. After it is exhausted they would need to sit still for a time and exhale before drawing in more air.

Not sure where the water in Zalanthas would come from or where it would hide. The most plausible explanation I always go back to is that this is the last century of a worldwide apocalypse before humans go extinct.

[BrokenRomance]

I'd like to know what causes spice. I mean I sure as Drov haven't seen a Maker, so there can't be any little makers.

[nauta]

Not sure where the water in Zalanthas would come from or where it would hide. The most plausible explanation I always go back to is that this is the last century of a worldwide apocalypse before humans go extinct.

The answer, as with so many things, is biowizard halflings.  At least according to one strand of Dark Sun lore -- which isn't Zalanthas, but bear with -- there was this thing called the Blue Age:

The Wanderer's Jounal begins with the Edenic Blue age when Athas was once covered with a vast body of life-giving water under a blue sun. Halflings ruled Athas then building a powerful civilization. They were nature-masters and life-shapers, able to produce anything they needed by manipulating the principles of nature itself. While most of the halfiing nature-masters worked in concert with the environment, some attempted to push boundaries in order to make nature bend in ways it was never meant. The Wanderer claims the Blue Age lasted an unspecified amount of time and attempts to see past the Green Age using magic or psionics have been unsuccessful. Regardless, it came to an end by accident. The halfiings of the great city of Tyr'agi tried to increase the sea's fecundity increase in order to produce more creatures and plants. The experiment failed, however, and the sea became choked with a toxic brown tide that spread across the waters killing everything it touched.

Then, uh, stuff happened, but my point is: there's probably some halflings off somewhere making ponds and stuff and the evaporation from that is enough to sustain what minimal water is needed to keep The Known together.

Totally.

[deathkamon]

Do any of you actually think... Could Zalanthas in fact be considered as Mars several billions of years into the future? That would explain why it's just one huge dustbowl, everything is red including the sky, etc.. Why I propose it's in the future is because of how big the sun is, and if there were any polar ice caps on Mars (which there are presently), they would have evaporated/ended up somewhere else.

[nauta]

One day I want to sail across the Sea of Eternal Dust and end up on the northern edge of the Grey Forest.

[TheWanderer]

could you stop reading my journal? wtf

[Jihelu]

In Dank sun the sun was red/fucked because of how halfling magick was fucking shit up as far as I know. So if the same is in our game, prob not, we can blame the fucking halflings for how hot it is.


The black moon? I'm just going to go out on a limb and suggest magic.

Why are the insects so big? Because....
Good question.
Biology is hard.

[Chettaman]

All of this is speculation. I like this thread.

Plants drink the blood of the fallen? + plants drink magick water?

The sun is close?

Bugs are big because they evolved to be so?

The black moon is really a terrifying mirror reality to zalanthas? Sahtnalaz? SahtNALAZ? + and the event so many years ago allowed "something" to manifest itself in reality. "something" being the black moon.

Meks eat salt worms. That's not speculation.

Spice is just a thing from the silt like chunks of it breaking off bit by bit?
Spice is really the poop of some enormous silt creature self-named Cthulu.

[Suhuy]

In order for a species like mekillot to thrive in numbers so great every clan chef serves it on the menu (to say nothing of other great beasts like bahamet, or even inix) wouldn't the world have to be absolutely teeming with life? It seems to me it would require an abundance of water and plantlife everywhere, like the tropical environment earth was during the time of the dinosaurs. I don't see how you could support such life forms in the barren wasteland that Zalanthas is meant to be, so I tend to apply a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief in order to explain it.

Though it's fun to speculate Cool topic!

[Jihelu]

The salt flats are big fam.

[Yam]

In order for a species like mekillot to thrive in numbers so great every clan chef serves it on the menu (to say nothing of other great beasts like bahamet, or even inix) wouldn't the world have to be absolutely teeming with life? It seems to me it would require an abundance of water and plantlife everywhere, like the tropical environment earth was during the time of the dinosaurs. I don't see how you could support such life forms in the barren wasteland that Zalanthas is meant to be, so I tend to apply a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief in order to explain it.

Though it's fun to speculate Cool topic!

Maybe the salt falts are teeming with life... beneath the surface.

Salt worms could feed on infauna beneath the sun-baked surface of the salt flats. Mekillots eat the salt worms. It works.

The only way to have enough primary producers down there is to have a source of hydrothermal energy. The base trophic level probably consists of archaea utilizing some weird but possible metabolic pathways. Coincidentally this is probably what's going on in the Earth's crust (minus salt worms and mekillots).

We already know that the Vrun Driath is volcanically active so our heat source is there. We also know that Allanak has some deep source of water and a sewer system, so I suspect that there's a significant aquifer beneath the southlands as well.

tldr; There is a massive hydrothermal system beneath the Southlands equivalent to Earth's deep, hot biosphere that supports higher forms of life like salt worms and mekillots.

[Lizzie]

In order for a species like mekillot to thrive in numbers so great every clan chef serves it on the menu (to say nothing of other great beasts like bahamet, or even inix) wouldn't the world have to be absolutely teeming with life? It seems to me it would require an abundance of water and plantlife everywhere, like the tropical environment earth was during the time of the dinosaurs. I don't see how you could support such life forms in the barren wasteland that Zalanthas is meant to be, so I tend to apply a healthy dose of suspension of disbelief in order to explain it.

Though it's fun to speculate Cool topic!

Maybe the salt falts are teeming with life... beneath the surface.

Salt worms could feed on infauna beneath the sun-baked surface of the salt flats. Mekillots eat the salt worms. It works.

The only way to have enough primary producers down there is to have a source of hydrothermal energy. The base trophic level probably consists of archaea utilizing some weird but possible metabolic pathways. Coincidentally this is probably what's going on in the Earth's crust (minus salt worms and mekillots).

We already know that the Vrun Driath is volcanically active so our heat source is there. We also know that Allanak has some deep source of water and a sewer system, so I suspect that there's a significant aquifer beneath the southlands as well.

tldr; There is a massive hydrothermal system beneath the Southlands equivalent to Earth's deep, hot biosphere that supports higher forms of life like salt worms and mekillots.

I already alluded to that - plus water sources "beyond the Known" that feed into those aquifers. Also - just as an FYI about animals needing water: most cats, wild and domestic, have low thirst drives. Most of them -will- drink water when it's readily available, but they get the bulk of their hydration needs from the flesh of the animals they consume. That's why a lot of "fanatics" push so vehemently against kibble for cats except as an occasional "kitty treat." So it's absolutely possible for animals on Zalanthas to simply not need water from the same sources that people need it and in fact, it's even possible for people on Zalanthas to need less water than we do here on earth. Remember some fruits in Armageddon -can- restore hydration levels on a limited basis so there's actual game code to support the theory.

[Norcal]

Fantasy game ≠ Scientific reality. Some things you just have to run with. The water thing has bugged me for a long time, yet it is what it is.
That is not to say we should not try to make Zalanthas more realistic, yet  we should balance that with FUN.

I often hear the term "low fantasy" being spoke of  recently and how Arm is or is moving towards becoming a low fantasy game.  I know that this probably refers more to magick and Deus ex Machina sort of events, yet I cannot look at a game with giant lizards and insects living in a dry desert and not think it is really high fantasy.

It is for this reason that I have a hard time understanding the need to remove certain things from the game because they don't fit the "low fantasy theme".

[Raptor_Dan]

I absolutely love this thread. I don't 'need' a scientific explanation for all the wonders of Zalanathas, but I'm having a blast just considering all of the theories above. The mars thing? I never even thought about that, but as I was reading it I was all, 'Yeah....y-yeaaah....' Kudos to all of you. Now, let me prepare my presentation for a few hours, answering all these questions and more, so I can properly demonstrate how Armageddon is just post-nuclear-fallout Earth. I might get distracted and wander off though, no promises.


Also, I read somewhere that the larger and animal is (above humans) the less calories it has to consume in order to maintain it's body heat, and if body heat is part of the reason we /need/ to consume calories, then Meks should be perfectly natural and consume rather little, out there in one of the hottest places I've ever come across. I'm going to have to research that too.

[Miradus]

Also, I read somewhere that the larger and animal is (above humans) the less calories it has to consume in order to maintain it's body heat, and if body heat is part of the reason we /need/ to consume calories, then Meks should be perfectly natural and consume rather little, out there in one of the hottest places I've ever come across. I'm going to have to research that too.

Generation of body heat is a byproduct of cellular metabolism (particularly glycolysis). All organisms do this, even cold-blooded ones. It's just warm-blooded creatures have internal systems to regulate and maintain that heat.

In hot environments, generating of body heat is more of a problem than a necessary thing. Mechanisms and adaptations to shed excess body heat have to occur or overheating will kill the organism.

Inside every cell in your body, there are 10 chemical reactions going on at all times in order to create ATP. A larger organism is going to require more ATP for movement and maintaining cellular metabolism and therefore would have more trouble in the desert. If larger organisms were at all suited for hot, low moisture environments then you would see more of them on Earth.

Basically, the guys who created Dark Sun don't know ecology and science.   Frank Herbert was the definitive master for worldbuilding living ecosystems, not Gary Gygax, Ed Greenwood, or any of those other guys.

[Lizzie]

Also, I read somewhere that the larger and animal is (above humans) the less calories it has to consume in order to maintain it's body heat, and if body heat is part of the reason we /need/ to consume calories, then Meks should be perfectly natural and consume rather little, out there in one of the hottest places I've ever come across. I'm going to have to research that too.

Generation of body heat is a byproduct of cellular metabolism (particularly glycolysis). All organisms do this, even cold-blooded ones. It's just warm-blooded creatures have internal systems to regulate and maintain that heat.

In hot environments, generating of body heat is more of a problem than a necessary thing. Mechanisms and adaptations to shed excess body heat have to occur or overheating will kill the organism.

Inside every cell in your body, there are 10 chemical reactions going on at all times in order to create ATP. A larger organism is going to require more ATP for movement and maintaining cellular metabolism and therefore would have more trouble in the desert. If larger organisms were at all suited for hot, low moisture environments then you would see more of them on Earth.

Basically, the guys who created Dark Sun don't know ecology and science.   Frank Herbert was the definitive master for worldbuilding living ecosystems, not Gary Gygax, Ed Greenwood, or any of those other guys.

Elephants
Dromedary (camels)
Desert Bighorn Sheep
Rhinoceros
Wild horses
Desert Tortoise

Those are some pretty big desert animals.

[Jihelu]

I mean, I don't think Dark Sun needs to be very scientific.
Considering halflings had fucking flesh magick and populated the world with their own races.

[nauta]

I mean, I don't think Dark Sun needs to be very scientific.
Considering halflings had fucking flesh magick and populated the world with their own races.

Biowizard halflings are very scientific.

[Chettaman]

I mean, I don't think Dark Sun needs to be very scientific.
Considering halflings had fucking flesh magick and populated the world with their own races.

I've got some flesh magick for ya. 

[Jihelu]

I mean, I don't think Dark Sun needs to be very scientific.
Considering halflings had fucking flesh magick and populated the world with their own races.

I've got some flesh magick for ya. 

o-oh



My thoughts on things being 'realistic'.
I like realism as much as the next guy. I really do. But for a game like this, a Mud really, I don't think you can use realism as an accurate portrayel of what the casual/even most vet players want.
If everyone had to carry around a piece of flint and rock everytime they wanted to light a torch, fail half the time, and still see jack shit at night because torches suck irl, no one would be having fun.
If people had to actually heal wounds/lost limbs like one would in real life, people would get pissy.

Keeping things at a workable low fantasy/just at the level of "Can this be explained ic or is this magick shit" is okay.

[Raptor_Dan]

Also, I read somewhere that the larger and animal is (above humans) the less calories it has to consume in order to maintain it's body heat, and if body heat is part of the reason we /need/ to consume calories, then Meks should be perfectly natural and consume rather little, out there in one of the hottest places I've ever come across. I'm going to have to research that too.

Generation of body heat is a byproduct of cellular metabolism (particularly glycolysis). All organisms do this, even cold-blooded ones. It's just warm-blooded creatures have internal systems to regulate and maintain that heat.

In hot environments, generating of body heat is more of a problem than a necessary thing. Mechanisms and adaptations to shed excess body heat have to occur or overheating will kill the organism.

Inside every cell in your body, there are 10 chemical reactions going on at all times in order to create ATP. A larger organism is going to require more ATP for movement and maintaining cellular metabolism and therefore would have more trouble in the desert. If larger organisms were at all suited for hot, low moisture environments then you would see more of them on Earth.

Basically, the guys who created Dark Sun don't know ecology and science.  Frank Herbert was the definitive master for worldbuilding living ecosystems, not Gary Gygax, Ed Greenwood, or any of those other guys.

Very good to know, and pretty interesting. I don't really think this thread is about realism, or needing realism, or anything like that. I thought it was just for fun for those of us that like to use their imaginations to ponder the scientific possibilities, and while you're explanation of cellular metabolism totally shot my idea to shit, I still enjoyed learning about, so, thanks for that.

(edited to remove unnecessary mean comments)

[nauta]

This is neat, from the Dune wikipedia:

The most notable custom of the Fremen is their water conservation. Living in the desert with no natural sources of water has spurred the Fremen to ritualize and build their society around the collection, storage, and conservative use of all moisture. They conserve the water distilled from their dead, consider spitting an oath bond, and value tears as the greatest gift one can give to the dead.[1] Dune suggests that the Fremen have adapted to the environment physiologically, with their blood able to clot almost instantly in order to prevent water loss.[9] Leto II Atreides notes in Children of Dune (1976) that Fremen have a "longer, larger" large intestine "to take back water from everything which came its way."

In Dune, Paul's suspicions are confirmed when Stilgar admits to Jessica that "We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep our skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis." The Fremen have a long-term plan to terraform Arrakis:

We change it ... slowly but with certainty ... to make it fit for human life. Our generation will not see it, nor our children nor our children's children nor the grandchildren of their children ... but it will come ... Open water and tall green plants and people walking freely without stillsuits.

Collection
Water is collected from the atmosphere in windtraps that condense the humidity and add it to the underground water store (caches).[1] Water can also be collected from dead animals and people, using a deathstill to remove the water from a corpse for addition to the sietch water store. The Fremen who obtains the body — through discovery or honorable killing — is then given a set of water rings whose markings denote a volume of water equal to the amount of water collected. These rings are used as a form of currency, and are backed by fixed volumes of water (analogous to the historical gold standard). For example, the victor of a sanctioned duel would claim his dead opponent's water, and the widow or children of deceased Fremen might inherit his water. Water rings have a profound significance in matters of birth, death, and courtship ritual.

Storage
Each sietch has its own water store underground. This store can hold millions of decaliters of water and is accounted for literally to the last drop. This store is used as a bank for all the water owned by members of the sietch through water rings, as well as for the sietch's own store of water for the eventual transformation of their planet into something other than desert.

Conservation
The Fremen spend all time out of their sietch in a stillsuit, a special body-enclosing suit designed to collect and recycle all the moisture the body releases, from urine, feces and sweat, to the exhalation of water vapor in the breath. The special fabric is a micro-sandwich designed to dissipate heat and filter wastes while reclaiming moisture. The water is then held in catchpockets and made available to drink through a tube. A Fremen in a well-kept suit can survive weeks in the desert without any other source of water. Because of their culture's focus on water conservation, it is generally considered a great sign of respect among the Fremen to spit before a person. Fremen also put a great cultural reverence on crying and tears. Tears shed for someone who has died are referred to as "Giving Water to the Dead" and regarded with much bemusement.

We need deathstills in Zalanthas.  Mastercrafters, go.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrakis for water discussion.

[Raptor_Dan]

I like to imagine that Earth, at some point, suffered several nuclear detonations. Not enough to destroy all life, but enough to seriously damage the entire ecosystem. At the height of the space age, we had constructed an artificial satellite, but after we lost all communications and technology, everyone up there's super dead, orbiting in their giant red sphere. Back down on the planet, people and animals slowly begin to evolve.

One of the first evolutionary advantages the (still) human race experienced was a sensitivity to radiation that allowed us to navigate hot spots (a la Piers Anthony's 'Battle Circle') and avoid the worst of the radioactivity. Those that fled to the mountains experienced mutations such as expanded lung capacity, taller and thinner bodies, and more acute senses, whereas those in the in thickest cities suffered massive cellular degeneration over decades. Completely devoid of hair, only those that possessed superhuman resistance to poisons and free radicals survived and had offspring, particularly those with the intense focus and will power to overcome the numerous obstacles in their path.

As the radioactive energy began to dissipate after several thousands years the sensitivity to radiation that allowed us to avoid the worst of it slowly became an ability to manipulate it. This was the birth of magic. This EMF manipulating ability took a few different styles, the cultures existing at that time attributing the differences to the separate hue of light. Red and Infrared light magickers excelled at starting fires, destroying tissue and soft materials, while at the other end of the spectrum, the ultraviolet manipulators were capable of sensing the electromagnetic fields of living organisms, as well as damaging the genetic structures of said organisms, practically cursing them. Even the flashes of intense UV light they were capable of producing, while seemingly invisible, was capable of rendering others blind.

Lol, I know a lot of this probably wildly inaccurate and completely impossible, with more than few errors in my understanding of physics, I'm sure. Still, I like the idea, and if someone corrects me, I just get the bonus of learning new stuff.

[Miradus]

I've always been a big fan of the Spelljammer universe with planar travel.

I like to imagine that Zalanthas is a dying world, part of the big multiverse and the sorcerer-kings know it. Their goal is to use the energy left in the world to cross over into another universe where they can continue to feed on magical energy. It might even be in their goals to become a demilich capable of existing across multiple universes indefinitely.

[Jihelu]

I've always been a big fan of the Spelljammer universe with planar travel.

I like to imagine that Zalanthas is a dying world, part of the big multiverse and the sorcerer-kings know it. Their goal is to use the energy left in the world to cross over into another universe where they can continue to feed on magical energy. It might even be in their goals to become a demilich capable of existing across multiple universes indefinitely.

B-but thats not canon.


I just use the standard Dark Sun world rules when it comes to Zalanthas.
Meaning we are just stuck in this hellish world and the elementals are kind of to blame because they murdered jesus

[Miradus]

To hell with canon!

I have head-canon.

[BadSkeelz]

Suk-Krath is a a Sun-like Star, while Jihae is a Red Giant. I'm not sure if Suk Krath and Jihae are in a Binary system or not. Lirathu and the Black Moon are the only actual moons.

[amyandthepup]

Leaving this here because of how fascinating I found it! Nauta, thank you for reminding me just how much I loved Dune. Seriously.


He actually thought so much of this out. Fascinating. Yes, stillsuits! Definitely a go. Deathstills... I don't know...it sounds distasteful to me, but in this world, why not? It makes sense!

This is neat, from the Dune wikipedia:

The most notable custom of the Fremen is their water conservation. Living in the desert with no natural sources of water has spurred the Fremen to ritualize and build their society around the collection, storage, and conservative use of all moisture. They conserve the water distilled from their dead, consider spitting an oath bond, and value tears as the greatest gift one can give to the dead.[1] Dune suggests that the Fremen have adapted to the environment physiologically, with their blood able to clot almost instantly in order to prevent water loss.[9] Leto II Atreides notes in Children of Dune (1976) that Fremen have a "longer, larger" large intestine "to take back water from everything which came its way."

In Dune, Paul's suspicions are confirmed when Stilgar admits to Jessica that "We bribe the Guild with a monstrous payment in spice to keep our skies clear of satellites and such that none may spy what we do to the face of Arrakis." The Fremen have a long-term plan to terraform Arrakis:

We change it ... slowly but with certainty ... to make it fit for human life. Our generation will not see it, nor our children nor our children's children nor the grandchildren of their children ... but it will come ... Open water and tall green plants and people walking freely without stillsuits.

Collection
Water is collected from the atmosphere in windtraps that condense the humidity and add it to the underground water store (caches).[1] Water can also be collected from dead animals and people, using a deathstill to remove the water from a corpse for addition to the sietch water store. The Fremen who obtains the body — through discovery or honorable killing — is then given a set of water rings whose markings denote a volume of water equal to the amount of water collected. These rings are used as a form of currency, and are backed by fixed volumes of water (analogous to the historical gold standard). For example, the victor of a sanctioned duel would claim his dead opponent's water, and the widow or children of deceased Fremen might inherit his water. Water rings have a profound significance in matters of birth, death, and courtship ritual.

Storage
Each sietch has its own water store underground. This store can hold millions of decaliters of water and is accounted for literally to the last drop. This store is used as a bank for all the water owned by members of the sietch through water rings, as well as for the sietch's own store of water for the eventual transformation of their planet into something other than desert.

Conservation
The Fremen spend all time out of their sietch in a stillsuit, a special body-enclosing suit designed to collect and recycle all the moisture the body releases, from urine, feces and sweat, to the exhalation of water vapor in the breath. The special fabric is a micro-sandwich designed to dissipate heat and filter wastes while reclaiming moisture. The water is then held in catchpockets and made available to drink through a tube. A Fremen in a well-kept suit can survive weeks in the desert without any other source of water. Because of their culture's focus on water conservation, it is generally considered a great sign of respect among the Fremen to spit before a person. Fremen also put a great cultural reverence on crying and tears. Tears shed for someone who has died are referred to as "Giving Water to the Dead" and regarded with much bemusement.

We need deathstills in Zalanthas.  Mastercrafters, go.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrakis for water discussion.

[Jingo]

Zalanthans have flexile stomaches.

For some reason we can only eat one meal if with arn't hungry. Two meals if we're hungry and 4 meals if we're starving.

Realistically we should tdesc distended bellies if we want to portray the volume disturbance of eating 4 consecutive meals.

[Gilgamesh]

As far as I can tell, there is no direct mention of stars when you look up at the sky at night. But  I've seen in-game objects that mention stars and star-shapes. Are there visible stars in the sky at night time? How about celestial bodies beyond the moons? Just speculation. I'm sure the answer to these questions would be 'Find out IC".

[SuchDragonWow]

This has been brought up in the past, and I believe the consensus was that there are stars, as there are rooms that mention stars, but they are most often obscured by the dusty skies.  You can dig around with a GDB search, to be certain.

[Jihelu]

I can 100000% confirm stars exist.
Anyone but your occasional tribal that goes up near the mountains, however, will not have seen them. Because of our dusty skies/the sun/other reasons.

[Dunetrade55]

I'd think even through the dust, on a moonless night, you'd see the stars, due to the lack of light pollution.

[SuchDragonWow]

I don't know if you heard, but wizards did it.

[Jihelu]

I don't know if you heard, but wizards did it.

This seriously might be the answer.

[path]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh. The stars exist, but we don't talk about them.

[Raptor_Dan]

The stars don't exist,
The comet is in your mind,
Cherry blossoms fall...

[Shoka Windrunner]

Okay this was a while back but I'm going to add to this about some things.

Zalanthas being Mars - That's even worse than it might be...there is water on mars...FLOWING water at that...however...they estimate it to be about the equivalent of 38 Olympic sized swimming pools.  Not very much.  Now...this can be explained by saying a comet has struck the planet, perhaps on the far side of the planet for that matter.  The point being a comet has a lot of ice (and other things) in it and this could have increased the total amount of water on Mars.  (we don't know if there is water deep in the crust yet)  So...making the assumptions that the water has been added to this planet via a comet or three on the far side of the planet. (might explain the near eternal dust storms and why there is dust up there constantly?  Though that would probably be an extinction event but let's say it was moving Really Really Really slowly)  Or there is a large stash of water below the planet.  Without revealing to much, I have seen an incredibly large amount of water in game, a long long time ago.  Think of it as a torrential river.  So water is available.

Plants - evolution is the easy answer.  Specifically, being capable of holding in their moisture much as a cactus or desert plant does, that's why they have that 'waxy' covering on them.  Typically plants can have wide spread out roots, typically in a desert, to catch as much rainfall as occasionally comes, a big root ball to grab the water that is near the surface and pull nutrients it needs, or a taproot that digs straight down deeply.  So perhaps an evolution that causes an amalgam of at least the spread out roots and the tap root, allowing the plant to reach deep to find some moisture, spread out to grab a little water when those occasional rains come through and are designed to hold it all in as much as possible.  Super slow growth on top of this means it can survive a long time, a cactus is VERY slow growing, so too are these plants.  The fruit bearing plants hold their water in their fruit, this doing two things, allowing them to have a supply on hand and also tempting animals to eat them and spread their seeds when they poo.  Fruitless leafy plants have probably got a store below ground, probably deep along their tap root.  That's why so many are poisonous, it's to protect their precious water, animals won't eat them because they would die, so these plants have evolved to having added/altered their water stores to be highly poisonous.  So far, on Earth, if there is ANY water, no matter where you look, there is life.  In science, unless we can prove otherwise, it is going to be held that if a place has water, then it has what is necessary to support life in some manner. 

People - Evolution again, this time helped along with some hefty mutation.  Similar things to as above but resulting in Elves, Evolved Humans, Dwarves...etc.

Insects - It would require lots and lots of oxygen.  Also, as was mentioned a diminished gravity from Earths or insects that have an circulatory system similar to ours and the means to breath better than insects on Earth do.  Evolution can do amazing things.  But if we go with lots of oxygen and lower gravity, this could be supported by the whole Mars thing.

Oxygen - not really enough plant life to support replenishing the oxygen.  At least not in the Known.  I have always assumed that Northwards, a long ways away, life continues to flourish in some form, by that I mean plant life.  If we look at the world from south to north, plant life increases in abundancy to the point of looking as parts of the savannah does in Africa.  Meaning to the north, more plants, even further north perhaps even more plants.  This would allow oxygen to spread.

But that could also mean more animal life up that way...and perhaps that is true.  But it doesn't have to be great amounts of oxygen breathing life.  Maybe in the great UnKnown out there, there is only small animals.  Maybe we are just the super duper unlucky ones that live down here, stuck as it were, where things suck really really bad.

The Black Moon - a captured rogue 'planet' or moon?  It happens.  Well...it theoretically could happen.  And in Mars' case, that's where Phobos and Deimos came from, capture asteroids basically.  Our moon likely came from Very Very Very Old Earth being struck by something planet sized.  Stuff got ejected out into orbit around these fusing planets which over time pulled together and formed our moon.  But anyway...one thing I have not mentioned is magick.  Now...in Dark Sun one of the reasons the planet sucks so bad where the game is set is all the magic is pulled from plant or sometimes animal life.  This can often kill the plants and make the land unlivable.  Which would also kind of explain why the south is crappy as Tektolnes lives there and the north isn't quite as crappy because the Sun King was different from Tektolnes in a lot of ways.  That being said, perhaps there was a black, rogue planet coming our way and magick stopped it's acceleration into Z's gravity well and placed it in a stable orbit like the other moons. 

Or...simply magick.

Suk-Krath being red - Well...if we go with the Mars analogy, that's simple, it's the Red Supergiant that Sol will turn into one day.  Probably increasing in size still, though who knows?  Maybe it's way after that and it's collapsing now.  However, if it was at it's peak it would be pretty darn massive alright.  It's going to swallow the Earth most likely, or come really close to doing so at least when it happens.  That's 8 light minutes.  89,420,000 miles in radius, meaning 178,840,000 miles in diameter and placing it at the minimum point of it's orbit only 33,900,000 miles from the surface of the sun.   The average distance from Mars to Earth's orbit is about 140,000,000.  I'm not going to do the math here, but the sun would be a WHOLE lot larger than it is now...and a lot closer to mars, meaning it would be relatively huge.  Something like a quarter of the sky?  Though I doubt it's at it's full expansion and like I mentioned, probably on the way to that or on the way back down as it cools.  (cooling being a very relative thing when we are speaking of an enormous fusion explosion in the sky)

Otherwise it's a Red Dwarf star.  (it's not just a show you know)  And that would mean Z is on the very closest 'edge of the habitable zone.  Which would mean the sun was maybe as large as Sol is from Earth though likely smaller.  As a Red Dwarf is about...oh 60% of the size of Sol.  Red Dwarves are cooler (again being a very relative term to stars, not to what humans would consider hot and cold) than Sol is and the Habitable Zone is therefore closer, and Z would be on the closer edge of that probably to account for the heat. 

I say it has to be hot because of the closeness of the star because if it's because of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere...well...there probably wouldn't also be enough oxygen to support the giant creatures and insects.

There is a very good point for how fast things would burn in an oxygen rich atmosphere though.  So, we probably have to look at a less massive planet than planet Earth to explain insect sizes.

The hardest thing to explain is magick.  Sorcerer magick isn't quite as hard as it pulls it's energy from elsewhere and transforms it into a different kind of energy.  Energy conversion is simple to believe in because it happens to us all the time.  Electricity into light and heat.  Light into heat and electricity.  So on.  (any technology that is far advanced beyond what we know would appear as magick, walkie talkies in the Middle Ages for instance.)  From the helpfiles: "Sorcerers do not 'automatically' gain energy to cast their spells as elementalists can. They must instead gather it from sources of life."  So there defilers handily handled, we just haven't advanced to that level yet. (and may we never reach that or we will be living on Zalanthas here on Earth)  The elementalists don't SEEM to pull their power from the world around them.  So that gets a bit harder to start to explain but...I'm going to assume it is somewhat similar and I don't want to say to much on how to explain that.  I don't know if that's a secret or not but if someone wants me to really talk about it, I suppose I can.

Spice - Well.  It's probably from poop.  Secretions from Silt Horrors and/or Silt Flyers and/or whatever else is out there that we haven't really seen yet.  Their digestion perhaps requires a unique method and adds chemicals to their food to work, these chemicals are expelled, probably after a long digestion period in which all water is drawn back out of it, meaning it comes out more like dust than what we would typically call poop.  So, dusty poop has strange chemicals in them that if human or human-like species snort/smoke gets them high.  Not really all that less weird than licking frogs.  Which is a thing.

As for the amount of available meat sources in the game - okay...well.  I always looked at this one as more of a gameplay thing than a science thing because I haven't come up with a scientific explanation for it.  So for gameplay reasons...there are VNPC people in the cities, I always thought of VNPC beasties in the waste.  I mean...there kinda has to be.  So...yeah.  That's all I got on the food supply thing.

Yeah this is sort of a necro, but I love theorizing about science...and it's still on the front page of this forum sooooo....

[Raptor_Dan]

I really enjoyed reading that, thank you. Especially the spice poop thing.

He who controls the poop...

[Jihelu]

Or, it's because of all the evil halflings and their flesh mending and sun magic and all sorts of crazy shit.




I'm glad we aren't darksun sometimes.

[Cind]

If the atmosphere were almost 100% oxygen, starting a fire would mean the death of everything. However, plant life within the Known doesn't produce like they said earlier nearly enough oxygen to replenish what the cities are using. And if the border regions of the unknown were florid, why would we stay in fucking saltlands and empty deserts, since we could get there by the end of one day on a beetle? I present to you: unbeatable science, the asshole.

[Miradus]

I've always thought there might be vast jungles on the other side of the silt sea where the sorcerers were unable to reach.

OR Zalanthas is running a deficit and in about 1,000 years everyone left will die gasping.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I've always thought there might be vast jungles on the other side of the silt sea where the sorcerers were unable to reach.

OR Zalanthas is running a deficit and in about 1,000 years everyone left will die gasping.

That's a good point too.

If the oxygen was 100%...it wouldn't destroy everything.  But it would make a mighty boom.  A torch would set probably a league alight, but it probably wouldn't light the whole atmosphere I don't think.  I'll check on that.

[Shoka Windrunner]

If the atmosphere were almost 100% oxygen, starting a fire would mean the death of everything. However, plant life within the Known doesn't produce like they said earlier nearly enough oxygen to replenish what the cities are using. And if the border regions of the unknown were florid, why would we stay in fucking saltlands and empty deserts, since we could get there by the end of one day on a beetle? I present to you: unbeatable science, the asshole.

Okay, quick google.  I thought this right:

No. Although oxygen gas is a great oxidizer, it still needs another component in order to combust. Unless there was twice the amount of hydrogen gas as there was oxygen(O2 + 2H2 => 2H2O) mixed with the atmospheric oxygen, then there wouldn't be an explosion that would consume the entire atmosphere.

Yes, fires would burn hotter and possibly spread faster, but there wouldn't be a global explosion. It's likely that there would be significantly more fire storms, and you could basically turn a camp fire into a furnace.

So yeah.  If it was 33% Oxygen, and 66% Hydrogen...yeah lighting that match would be catastrophic.

[BlackMagic0]

x

To go on with your Elementlist issues.

They draw their powers directly from the elemental planes they are linked to from manifestation.
They are directly born with some unnatural connection to the other planes of magick.
They are almost rifts into our plane from the elemental.

That is at least how I always rationalized it in my head.

[Shoka Windrunner]

x

To go on with your Elementlist issues.

They draw their powers directly from the elemental planes they are linked to from manifestation.
They are directly born with some unnatural connection to the other planes of magick.
They are almost rifts into our plane from the elemental.

That is at least how I always rationalized it in my head.

Yeah basically energy, made into other energy.    I like it.

[Jihelu]

I was always a fan of the Dark Sun "We're just warlocks/clerics but for elementals" with bargaining and all sorts of stuff.
But the Arm way works too.
A bit vague but eh, who has time to question your ability to throw fire?

[seidhr]

Interesting read, Shoka.  Most of the stuff you mention isn't documented one way or the other, because we're not trying to run an astrophysics simulation - just roleplay in our literal sandbox.

However, the one thing that is documented is spice.  It's really cool.  You aren't wildly off base.   

[Shoka Windrunner]

Interesting read, Shoka.  Most of the stuff you mention isn't documented one way or the other, because we're not trying to run an astrophysics simulation - just roleplay in our literal sandbox.

However, the one thing that is documented is spice.  It's really cool.  You aren't wildly off base.   

I never thought anyone would take my science posts to heart as actual in game fact or whatever. I just like thinking about science to explain things. That's cool about the spice that my "guess" was even remotely right in some doc somewhere. I didn't know you guys had docs at all that explain some of that stuff.  Cool. I hope one day we get a peak at some of that stuff. 

I just really love science! (He says playing a fantasy game...I love fantasy to though!)

[Jihelu]

Interesting read, Shoka.  Most of the stuff you mention isn't documented one way or the other, because we're not trying to run an astrophysics simulation - just roleplay in our literal sandbox.

However, the one thing that is documented is spice.  It's really cool.  You aren't wildly off base.   

I never thought anyone would take my science posts to heart as actual in game fact or whatever. I just like thinking about science to explain things. That's cool about the spice that my "guess" was even remotely right in some doc somewhere. I didn't know you guys had docs at all that explain some of that stuff.  Cool. I hope one day we get a peak at some of that stuff. 

I just really love science! (He says playing a fantasy game...I love fantasy to though!)

I can't believe a post made about spice being silt horror shit or something along those lines was somewhat declared canon not canon by staff.


Now I just need them to confirm rainbow fire.

[Hauwke]

Every clan has a bunch of docs on what it that they do. They can be fun to read, I made it a little ooc side quest to read them all at some point. There is still a buuuunch I havent read yet.

[Cind]

I firmly believe silt animal shit is coded, most of us just haven't seen the objects.

With the way the weather is so fierce and windy in the silt sea, imagine the shit being swirled up in all those winds, carried with it.

No go play your spice grebber.

[Miradus]

I firmly believe silt animal shit is coded, most of us just haven't seen the objects.

With the way the weather is so fierce and windy in the silt sea, imagine the shit being swirled up in all those winds, carried with it.

No go play your spice grebber.

Technically, everything is shit.

The best way to compost anything is to run it through the digestive tract of a life form. It condenses nutrients and breaks everything back down to its most easily consumable minimums which allows it to be taken in again by plants to build biomass.

Every cell in your body was once pooped out by something else before being reconstituted through bio-reclamation into the fabulous "you" that walks around today.

Miradus <--- writes science books for kids. 

[Shoka Windrunner]

Everyone is made of silty shit dust.

[Raptor_Dan]

Everyone is made of silty shit dust.

I'm now picturing that gypsy woman from Before Sunrise shouting, 'You are all shit dust!'

[Shoka Windrunner]

Miradus <--- writes science books for kids. 

Okay.  That's awesome. Kudos +c to you for doing that.  I mean it.

Star dust though.  Star dust.  Got my kids interested for sure.

[Esadal]

Miradus <--- writes science books for kids. 

Okay.  That's awesome. Kudos +c to you for doing that.  I mean it.

Star dust though.  Star dust.  Got my kids interested for sure.

That's why calling someone the star of your world is both accurate, -and- a good pickup line.  Since we're all..  Stardust.

I'm corny, I can't help it.

Back on topic though, does this mean that the latrines will someday become giant spice mines for some future race?

[Shoka Windrunner]

Miradus <--- writes science books for kids. 

Okay.  That's awesome. Kudos +c to you for doing that.  I mean it.

Star dust though.  Star dust.  Got my kids interested for sure.

That's why calling someone the star of your world is both accurate, -and- a good pickup line.  Since we're all..  Stardust.

I'm corny, I can't help it.

Back on topic though, does this mean that the latrines will someday become giant spice mines for some future race?

Well she said Silt Horror shit wasn't far off.  I don't think Byn shit...well...amounts to shit.