Raider, Raiders, Raiding: Brainstorm, Reflections, Thoughts

[nauta]

I played a grebber who never got raided, and so I decided to then play a raider.  I'd done a little raiding in the past, and I was between characters, so I thought: why not? The response from the playerbase was just fantastic.  71% of you played along with the raid in a really kudos-generating way (so kudos all you hooded grebbers!)  0% spam-fled (with no emotes).  As far as I could tell, nobody meta-described the raider.

So this is a kind of corrigendum against the FUD that raiding is not a viable activity.  Perhaps, too, this will encourage more raiders.

Here are some reflections:

1 The Raid's The Thing.  Sure there's some fun in being on the lam, but the real fun, the real raison d'etre for a raider, is the raid itself.  All your RP soul should be poured into this scene to make it fun for you and the raidee.  As a player, you aren't out to collect booty or win, but out to have some good wholesome highway robbery RP!

2. Nobody Really Likes Being The Victim.  Let them lead with the victimization business and don't power emote an advantage.  You'd be surprised -- I know I was -- with how many people are pro-active about being raided/being to the disadvantage, even if codedly they aren't (since, y'know, you can just type 'west' to avoid the raid).  If they don't feel like being raided that day and just walk off, let them go.  (Although keep a note to self.)  If they don't respond with emotes and go straight to code: meh, just let them go.  An NPC will likely eat them down the road and, besides, did you really want to interact with them anyway?

3. Flee.  Yes, they can just walk off.  Will they?  My experience shows they won't if you approach them with, perhaps, a 'shout', and at least a say and an emote and a direction command emote, e.g.,

Code Select Expand

e (thundering down the dune, twin scimitars out, sand billowing behind);
say (all covered up, shadow looming over ~2.figure) Hai!


4. Identification.  A simple tag on your tdesc seems sufficient to remind players that they have very little to go on when making a report about the raiders.

5. Be modest.  Don't raid someone twice.  Don't raid groups bigger than you.  Don't ask for that special item that you know (OOCly) means something-- just ask for sids and move on.  You'll probably get a different response if you try to kill someone versus just robbing them.  Be selective: if your homebase is RSV, don't raid folks from RSV.

6. Skills.  Posturing goes a long way.

7. Kidnapping.  Posturing goes a long way.

8. Camp.  While a save spot would be cool (and I'm excited about the RSV clan option now), the game really only reboots once a week at a pretty regular time, so you can do 'arrange' and 'bury' on a dune with pretty good reliability.

9. Training.  With the new code that distinguishes humanoid from other monster types, it -would- be nice to have some humanoids in the wilds (like you have in the rinth -- baby gith?) to train on, but, in all honesty, you can get some good raiding in with a 0-day putz.

Here are some links for further reflection:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=20991.0
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=32858.0
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=50152.0
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=37171.00
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=9610.0
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=12303.0

If others want to pipe in with their thoughts on raiding, please do, but as always, please keep the snark/negativity to an absolute minimum.  Sure, there will always be that -guy-, but like I said, I've found the raiding experience to be fantastic.  (I want to start another thread combating some of the FUD about the rinth, which I have more experience with, all positive.)

(edit: fixed the urls to point to the toppost of each thread.  really good stuff in them.)

[Miradus]

My thoughts are that I don't want to be raided, but you've sort of set the stage already that anyone who doesn't want to play your victim is a "bad roleplayer".

If you want me to codedly be forced into giving up my life, goods, or money then you need to have the coded skills to do so. Sorry, bud, but this isn't a MUSH.

[Reiloth]

My thoughts are that I don't want to be raided, but you've sort of set the stage already that anyone who doesn't want to play your victim is a "bad roleplayer".

If you want me to codedly be forced into giving up my life, goods, or money then you need to have the coded skills to do so. Sorry, bud, but this isn't a MUSH.

It isn't a MUSH, but you also help enhance the story and setting of Zalanthas by being raided. Having too much attachment/care for your PC is what leads down the path to the dark side of the force. Put the story/setting first, and be less attached to your PCs.

[Miradus]

What if my story is that I killed the raider who tried to raid me? That's pretty pro-Zalanthas too, isn't it?

I think it's pretty cool that the guy is doing this, and it certainly makes the game more interesting for all involved. However I did pick up on this whole "you're only a good roleplayer if you meekly lay down, soil yourself, and hand me your belongings" vibe which I didn't like. There are plenty of wasteland badasses out there that you might accidentally run into who may decide they don't want to be raided, unless you're metagaming them based on their straight-out-of-chargen newbie gear.

I agree with much of the post though. I would prefer having more humanoids in the wilds besides simply the gith. I can go 3-5 days played without seeing another humanoid beyond a kylori or a manera. Or are the wilds really that unpopulated? I've found reboots to be consistent enough that I can set up a camp somewhere in the wilds for a period of time, but there is an expectation that I'm going to log in at some point and find everything gone either to a reboot or a scavenger.

A sleek-haired raider comes charging over the dune on an erdlu, waving his baobab sword and yelling "Give me your sid!"

etwo trident

A sleek-haired raider skids to a stop. A sleek-haired raider leaves to the west.

[Malken]

Miradus, over the years a problem has developed between raiders and victims that is continuously leading into a loop of mistrust -

Raider wants to give a chance to the victim to just play along so they "trust" the victim to at the very least role-play something with them.

Instead, victim either auto-flees to report the raider to the nearest Templar PC, thus turning this mundane event into a near HRPT until the victim is caught, or the victim "fighting" to the end, either by insulting the raider or fighting him/her until one of them is dead.

In turn, it makes the raiders a lot more "careful" by either skipping the whole role-play part of it and straight-killing the victim the minute they step into the room or at the very least attempting to knock them out before the victim gets to look at them.

This makes the players distrust one another and instead of having both sides trusting both players to play along "fairly", one side always assumes now that the other side is out to "win" and that it's better to just code-win and pray for the best than to give another player the benefit of the doubt.

[nauta]

What if my story is that I killed the raider who tried to raid me? That's pretty pro-Zalanthas too, isn't it?

I think it's pretty cool that the guy is doing this, and it certainly makes the game more interesting for all involved. However I did pick up on this whole "you're only a good roleplayer if you meekly lay down, soil yourself, and hand me your belongings" vibe which I didn't like. There are plenty of wasteland badasses out there that you might accidentally run into who may decide they don't want to be raided, unless you're metagaming them based on their straight-out-of-chargen newbie gear.

I agree with much of the post though. I would prefer having more humanoids in the wilds besides simply the gith. I can go 3-5 days played without seeing another humanoid beyond a kylori or a manera. Or are the wilds really that unpopulated? I've found reboots to be consistent enough that I can set up a camp somewhere in the wilds for a period of time, but there is an expectation that I'm going to log in at some point and find everything gone either to a reboot or a scavenger.

A sleek-haired raider comes charging over the dune on an erdlu, waving his baobab sword and yelling "Give me your sid!"

etwo trident

A sleek-haired raider skids to a stop. A sleek-haired raider leaves to the west.

When I said that the experience was fantastic, I didn't mean to imply that the raider ended up on top!  Sometimes raiders get raided.  

I meant, like what Malken just said, that there was always interaction that went beyond the coded interaction in each raid -- a kind of trust between both parties that surprised me granted this 'loop of mistrust' that gets talked about sometimes in these contexts.

A good experience could also be like the one that you put forward, where the raidee fights back.  However, I'll still stick to my guns here and say that the scenario you outlined is a 'bad' experience in this sense:

(a) The raider didn't wait for any response from the raidee, other than the 'etwo trident'.  Raider spam-flee is as boring as raidee spam-flee.  (It isn't the end of the world, mind you, it's just not as fun.)

(b) The raidee didn't offer any response to the raider, other than 'etwo trident'.

That scene could have turned into a really epic one if both parties had stuck around: the raider could have been raided; they could've talked and teamed up; they could've started fighting; it could've been an epic chase across the sands.  All of this is fun times.

ETA: And actually, I think one of the biggest realizations I had is in point two, so let me try to re-articulate that a bit:

2. Nobody Really Likes Being The Victim.  Let them lead with the victimization business and don't power emote an advantage.  You'd be surprised -- I know I was -- with how many people are pro-active about being raided/being to the disadvantage, even if codedly they aren't (since, y'know, you can just type 'west' to avoid the raid).  If they don't feel like being raided that day and just walk off, let them go.  (Although keep a note to self.)  If they don't respond with emotes and go straight to code: meh, just let them go.  An NPC will likely eat them down the road and, besides, did you really want to interact with them anyway?

Another way of putting this point: let the victim/raidee participate in the process and, in a sense, let them dictate the terms of the scene -- let them play the victim if they want (like I said, I was surprised how many people opted for this), or let them respond violently (it's always a risk), or let them run away (if they don't feel like getting raided that day). 

[whitt]

over the years a problem has developed between raiders and victims that is continuously leading into a loop of mistrust -

Pretty sure this is exactly what OP was stating is not happening.

Nor did I see anywhere in  OP that the raidee should just take it.

You want to stand and fight the raider, I'm sure that's a perfectly acceptable response.  I mean, they make a living picking strangers out of the desert to pick fights with and you make a living picking rocks...  I'm not sure how often that's going to be the wise choice, but as long as it's RP'd out, it's a valid choice.

[Miradus]

Sounds a lot better now that it's explained.

My image of grebbers, however, is that they are some of the toughest bastards in the Known. They go into dangerous places outside the walls to bring back loot, raw goods, and treasure. Raiders, hungry animals, and rogue gicks are part of their life. OOC, grebbing is a subguild meaning that the grebber could also be a skilled warrior or ranger. Or maybe just a slippery pickpocket who "grebs" in other people's packs as much as he does in the sand.

[whitt]

OOC, grebbing is a subguild meaning that the grebber could also be a skilled warrior or ranger. Or maybe just a slippery pickpocket who "grebs" in other people's packs as much as he does in the sand.

Sure, that's possible and it's the risk that the Raider takes.  Maybe that grebber is an ex-Byn Trooper that decided to spend a day picking rocks/salt for drinking money, but chances are?  Any skilled fighter doesn't spend very much time grebbing rocks/salt.  People greb for stuff to get by until they can make a living doing anything but grebbing.  The vNPC population never gets there. 

It's also possible that you've found the Raider that's just a lot of hot air, a sharp stick, and a beetle with no ability to back it up.  I'd guess that's just as likely as the above scenario.  Which is to say, not very.

So, the question becomes, is a Raidee really willing to bet their life against the coin the Raider is demanding that they are  in that sweet spot? 

[Miradus]

It absolutely depends on my character concept, but usually I'm willing to spend a few combat rounds to see how it goes.

[RogueGunslinger]

I've had a couple raids where my character initially fought, but then, after getting their ass handed to them, begged for their life and handed everything over they could think of including pledging their life to said raider. It was a lot of fun and I could tell the Raider was showing restraint.

[Miradus]

Because I'm curious, why is it the only conflict comes from raiders?

Tuluki and Nakis are supposed to hate each other, aren't they? The helpfiles seem to imply that they do, but yet I see as many southerners hanging out in Morin's as I do displaced Tulukis. I rarely, if ever, see any true dislike of "sharps" portrayed and everyone is always super, super nice and polite to a mul.

[Patuk]

I rarely, if ever, see any true dislike of "sharps" portrayed

Fucking play one.

It's not portrayed because there's no such thing as a city elf, and desert elves are these guys who have all the booze and 1337 +archery gear and war clubs. You don't want to miss out on those, do you?

[whitt]

everyone is always super, super nice and polite to a mul.

This one is easy.  "Let the wookie win".

The rest, you're right.  The tendency to just play along with other players is strong.  It's amplified in places where the PC count is lower because actively rejecting one of the two or three other players in your play-sphere is a hard choice to make.  Elves and magickers, I can attest, get a fair share of spite sent their way, but in the grand scheme of things most folks tend towards ignoring them in the same way they ignore the vNPCs.  That lack of attention is just as easily perceived as tacit acceptance.

So, how to fix... well that's another thread.

[nauta]

everyone is always super, super nice and polite to a mul.

So, how to fix... well that's another thread.

It is another thread.  Also the claim that raiding is a main source of conflict despite documented conflict between north and south is worthy of another thread too. 

Please keep this one raider-centric!  Hugs and kisses, xxooxx.

[lostinspace]

So, the question becomes, is a Raidee really willing to bet their life against the coin the Raider is demanding that they are  in that sweet spot? 

When that coin is going into the only skin of water they'll drink that week and the only food they'll have, I don't find it too hard to believe that a grebber would fight for that.

[Miradus]

Okay, focusing on raiders ...

They need more to do to feel "raider-esque" other than just going after some grebber.

NPC caravans to rob, npc villages to attack, or heck, just any NPC out there at all to focus on other than giant warbands of npc soldiers. I'd like to play the bad guy, but if all I can do to "be bad" is rob some poor grebber out of sid then I don't know that I'd bother focusing a character concept on that.

I played a desert elf once. It took about an hour to figure out how to get out of their little area and then I lived 9 minutes in the Pah proper. Fell into a pit that wasn't obvious from room descriptions and it had carru in it.

I'll try again someday.

[Armaddict]

Okay, focusing on raiders ...

They need more to do to feel "raider-esque" other than just going after some grebber.

NPC caravans to rob, npc villages to attack, or heck, just any NPC out there at all to focus on other than giant warbands of npc soldiers. I'd like to play the bad guy, but if all I can do to "be bad" is rob some poor grebber out of sid then I don't know that I'd bother focusing a character concept on that.

I played a desert elf once. It took about an hour to figure out how to get out of their little area and then I lived 9 minutes in the Pah proper. Fell into a pit that wasn't obvious from room descriptions and it had carru in it.

I'll try again someday.

The important part of playing a raider, which is not for everyone, I admit, is being willing to perhaps ruin somebody's day on their character in an effort to -really- reinforce a fundamental truth of the game.  It's not just beasties out there who want you dead.  The city is a place most people never leave for a reason.  The wilderness is filled with danger of all types.  There really isn't another danger out there quite equivalent to another person (another player).

The reason this post comes up and is nice to read is because while you may ruin someone's day to reinforce this, it is trying to emphasize that it can be done in a wholesome way that can be easily seen as a contribution to the game, rather than just some dude who likes PK who wants to attack you out in the wilds.  This isn't to say combat won't ensue over it.  Combat is a very real and viable option.  Killing people is always going to be an option.  But even that can be done in way that while not exactly -fun-, doesn't leave your head ringing with 'THAT MOTHERFUCKER'.

My problems with raiders were much different.  My last one, a couple years ago, had some people interact with him, it went well, until one guy decided to just run.  So I shot arrows at him.  I never actually killed anyone out there, nor successfully raided, but those arrows were seen.  Within 1 RL day I had an ENTIRE byn clan chasing me around in the sands.  I had had the mage team sent after me.  And this was over an unaffiliated dwarf who just got it out there that there was a guy who was raiding around the city.  This kind of gross overreaction is -stifling-.  They did not catch me, they did not kill me, but they did prevent that role from being viable around the city.

They saved the city from the lone raider.  The question is...would anyone -actually- care that much about a lone raider, unless they were paid for it?  Would a templar put a bounty on every raider's head?  Would House Jal rally around the lone salter assaulted?  Is there an area of influence around city-states that is kept clear by the city?  I don't think any of those is a yes.  But I do think the raider is one of the easiest roles for people to band up and hero-out against.

Now this is a lot of anecdotal thoughts and such, and some of it I may have wrong, even.  But I was just using it to lead up to the point of:

I'm sure I'll be playing another antagonist.  I'm curious to see if the same response happens, because that is a very real problem.  Along the same lines as 'roleplay being the raidee', please also let antagonists antagonize...if they become a hassle for -you-, that becomes your business.  But resist the urge to hero out and stifle antagonism that isn't directed at you, so that more antagonists can actually exist as more than one at a time.

[valeria]

.... and everyone is always super, super nice and polite to a mul.

It can wreck your day with a closed fist.  Why wouldn't you be super polite to it?  It's a force of nature more than a thinking, feeling being.

That said, not everyone was super polite to my mul.

[nauta]

But even that can be done in way that while not exactly -fun-, doesn't leave your head ringing with 'THAT MOTHERFUCKER'.

I keep seeing SuchDragonWow's avatar with that line:

[Reiloth]

I just want to have a kid raider one day. There was a SLK recently who was sort of a kid that I appreciated, I think it fit the feral tribe quite well.

[Jihelu]

Well. The Byn isn't /that/ large of an organization.
I just think its funny the Dwarf probably paid more sids than you would have taked to have you fail hunted down.


Also magickers aren't slave, he could have just asked him to look around for you.
It's completely different if they have ,say, a legion of soldiers chasing you down.
Like 5 Byn is just an issue of money.

[Miradus]

Meh. What else is money for? Probably offered one large for your head and all those bored Bynners and gemmers just swarmed out the gate trying to be the first to get the job done.

[Armaddict]

Well. The Byn isn't /that/ large of an organization.
I just think its funny the Dwarf probably paid more sids than you would have taked to have you fail hunted down.


Also magickers aren't slave, he could have just asked him to look around for you.
It's completely different if they have ,say, a legion of soldiers chasing you down.
Like 5 Byn is just an issue of money.

I actually had it confirmed that the Byn was not paid, and the mages were sent by a templar.

[nauta]

I just want to have a kid raider one day. There was a SLK recently who was sort of a kid that I appreciated, I think it fit the feral tribe quite well.

I once had a short-lived rinther who ran down to Red Storm to join a skimming crew.  Her line was: "I'm the motherfucking Kid... but my professional name is the Child."  When I did 'addkeyword child' a staff member did a little checkup to make sure I wasn't RPing a child.