Discussion of Player Clans Expansion

[Xalle]

Hi, here's the thread where you can discuss the changes.

[Harmless]

This all seems like a set of healthy rebalances that make player made clans much more achievable and durable. Definitely looks like staff have taken player feedback seriously. I approve completely.   

[Patuk]

Jesus Christ that is awesome

[Lizzie]

Wow! I like the re-do. It addresses a lot of "concerns/issues/problems/questions."

[Barsook]

Awesome staff, thank you!

[Desertman]

I like that Shopkeepers can now designate their crafts as Clan Mastercrafts.

That is probably the only change that went in the right direction in the entire system in my opinion.

The rest is, in my opinion, the exact opposite more or less of what needed to happen. But what do I know? Maybe people will love it.


(Being able to make out-of-city "things" is something I consider a different/new system entirely. I like that a lot. It is not however in my opinion really part of the old system, it is more or less a new system for a new thing all together. My above comment doesn't apply to this.)

[valeria]

I like the changes quite a lot, especially the changes to PC shops/mastercrafting.  I think it responds pretty well to some player feedback.

I do have one question though.  How will the east-side Rinth/elf space work?  Will an elf be allowed to hire other elves?  Could this eventually lead to solo elves banding together to form a small tribe, which in my mind is the elf equivalent of a human gang?

[Xalle]

Will an elf be allowed to hire other elves?  Could this eventually lead to solo elves banding together to form a small tribe, which in my mind is the elf equivalent of a human gang?

Yep. Of course in game the elven tests of loyalty should come into play.

[Case]

I am need sleep but this actually looks pretty cool!

[nauta]

Very excited about the changes!

I do have one question though.  How will the east-side Rinth/elf space work?  Will an elf be allowed to hire other elves?  Could this eventually lead to solo elves banding together to form a small tribe, which in my mind is the elf equivalent of a human gang?

As well, eastside (depending on how you carve up the rinth space) isn't -just- elves.  I like the idea of an alternative (to the Guild and Dust Runners) gang forming in the rinth, which happens anyway from time to time organically.

[nauta]

Sorry for doubleposting, but one question I had to staff (maybe a concern):

Granted that there is just one space available in a number of spots (westside, eastside, gemmed, RSV, Luirs), and granted that people can go casual -- which I read as: go on vacation for a few months -- I'm a little concerned we might have people sitting on those coveted locations.

Since I can't really formulate a question about this, I guess it's a concern.  Uh, question: thoughts?

[Lukoyin]

Jesus Christ that is awesome

This! 1000% this. You guys are rockstars for making it happen.

[Iiyola]

I need to reread this a few times. But it looks promising.

[Reiloth]

In essence, it seems that you don't need to just spam sid farm and rise in the ranks (for those achievement based players). This seems to open up possibilities for criminal elements, for regular old shopkeepers, for brothel runners, for underground smugglers, bounty hunters, private investigators...It opens it up much more to the flavor and RP of Zalanthas.

Great changes, thanks Staff.

[Malken]

A House of PIs, now that the Drovian easy-spy mode is gone, that sounds like a great idea Reiloth

[Reiloth]

A House of PIs, now that the Drovian easy-spy mode is gone, that sounds like a great idea Reiloth

I actually did a Private Investigator (Davil Longshanks) in Tuluk for a hot second. It was hilariously fun, as rival Nobles hired me to 'investigate' (See: Spy) on several different employees. It lead to great RP, though I think the concept suits Tuluk in a way better than Allanak. I even got a couple of the classic gumshoe "Who's sleeping with my mate???" which was funny, and perhaps didn't fit the Zalanthan setting, but satisfied my Marlowe itch.

[Norcal]

WELL DONE!  WONDERFUL!


Arm staff have come through once again.  Kudos to all of you who have worked on this!

[Kankman]

Reading changes like this on the discussion board are what brought me back.

Now hopefully I won't sabotage my career just to have more time to play.

[Majikal]

I wish my concept could take advantage of this. 

Next concept though, oh boy, I'm already excited about exploring the possibilities of these changes.

[wizturbo]

Amazing improvement.  Great work!

I especially like that this system isn't centered on Allanak exclusively.

[Armaddict]

This means that as well as your concept needing to be pulsing out Zalanthan flavour,  you need to have an area you're 'specialising' in (and that goes for what you sell to NPC shops too),  not be self-sufficient and there needs to be potential for conflict. ie. not designed to be friends with everyone. We don't want meta clans that want to be 'One Clan – Better than Everyone at Everything'.

Does this mean that you're now allowed to specialize in areas that are usually 'taken' by the huge amount of goods covered by other minor merchant houses and major merchant houses?  Maybe those will become more specialized as well, or something?

[Miradus]

Looks pretty interesting. I have no idea how to capitalize on this yet, but it looks like it might shake things up.

Seems like you have a good range of "renting a rug in the bazaar" up to becoming an actual trading company.

[Desertman]

I've re-read this a few times and had some caffeine and put some more thought into it.

While it's not the way I would have went in every regard, I do feel the good outweighs the bad and it's moving in the right direction.

I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers.

[Reiloth]

I've re-read this a few times and had some caffeine and put some more thought into it.

While it's not the way I would have went in every regard, I do feel the good outweighs the bad and it's moving in the right direction.

I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers.

Just curious (because it may actually help to know) but what would you do differently? Might be a productive way of contributing.

[Bushranger]

Woo Woo Woo Woo! YAY!

This is freaking awesome! Player Clans everywhere is an excellent introduction. Time for me to brush off some of my old concepts.

[Jihelu]

Would out of city include literal out of city, say outside of Luirs or Nak somewhere or something.

[Vwest]

Looks good, or at least a lot more viable than the last iteration.

The 'rent' seems incredibly low, as does the pay for NPCs.

A garbage apartment above the Gaj costs between 400 and 750 coins a cycle, or about 2.5k to 4.5k a year.

3k a year (3.3k with taxes) seems incredibly low for premium real estate, considering these spaces are even more limited and (at least thematically, I'd think) in demand than some crappy flop crammed haphazard above a grungy tavern.

You can't buy a fancy sword for less than a 800 coins or a respectable suit of armor for less than 1,000 coins. The cost of hiring the T'zai Byn for a one-time escort is like 500-800 coins and a bag of salt sells for about 450 coins. 1000 coins for a year of around the clock NPC protection seems way, way, way below economic standards. The same can be said for a merchant or even a barker, unless it's a dwarf or a breed or something.

[Yam]

I agree. The change looks great overall, but the prices aren't in line with the rest of the game.

[Reiloth]

I think Zalanthas is experiencing some INFLATION!

[bardlyone]

I think Zalanthas is experiencing some INFLATION!

that housing bubble tho

That said, I don't think it's unfair for the price of business space to be less than the price of private personal space. Just like IRL, it's more expensive to live when you're poor than when you're rich. You pay more rent, you pay more for food, etc. It makes perfect sense to me. Because a lot of the people in clans... well, those apartments aren't as expensive as your Gaj apartment... it's almost like those clans are already lining the templarate's pockets, just like the aspiring mmh with a warehouse is expected to.... hmmm

[BadSkeelz]

I haven't had a chance to really read through the post, but regarding the Gaj apartments, their prices have always seemed kind of inflated for what they are. I think even the broom-closet apartments are a good 50% more expensive than a comparatively (or larger) sized apartment in Red Storm. Gaj apartments are also way more expensive than other apartments in Allanak, though those tend to be behind a social gate ("We only rent to Merchants/Aides/etc").

[Armaddict]

I think the price is feedback from the last post.  A lot of this looks like feedback, which is nice.  I had talked about some things that seem to be changed in this iteration.

I'm not sure if this is too cheap or not, or even if this is in respect to that...but I wanted people to be fighting for these spaces.  For there to be waiting lines for them.  For there to be people trying to knock each other off for these spaces.  I dunno if that's how this system will work, but that was my first thought at the lower prices.

That and I'm not sure you should have to be wealthy-as-shit to run a small business.

[Patuk]

Presumably part of the fee for apartments is because they are guarded. These places wouldn't be.

[bardlyone]

I haven't had a chance to really read through the post, but regarding the Gaj apartments, their prices have always seemed kind of inflated for what they are. I think even the broom-closet apartments are a good 50% more expensive than a comparatively (or larger) sized apartment in Red Storm. Gaj apartments are also way more expensive than other apartments in Allanak, though those tend to be behind a social gate ("We only rent to Merchants/Aides/etc").

Actually this is exactly why it makes sense to me. They hit you in the housing if you're unaffiliated, and if you've got the capital to fritter away on a warehouse, better it line pockets of nobles and templars as bribes, than some chump nenyuk.

[bardlyone]

I think the price is feedback from the last post.  A lot of this looks like feedback, which is nice.  I had talked about some things that seem to be changed in this iteration.

I'm not sure if this is too cheap or not, or even if this is in respect to that...but I wanted people to be fighting for these spaces.  For there to be waiting lines for them.  For there to be people trying to knock each other off for these spaces.  I dunno if that's how this system will work, but that was my first thought at the lower prices.

That and I'm not sure you should have to be wealthy-as-shit to run a small business.

All of this. At the prior prices, even playing 8 hours a day, as someone who doesn't gear their play specifically toward making $$$ before all else, that was simply too much. At the new listed prices... well... I already have an idea of something I'd like to do if I got hands on one of these spaces. >.>

[Fathi]

noooooooooooice

[Jihelu]

I feel like the prices are a bit fucked, and always kinda look fucked, but then again it's just strange how much they value something. (Or maybe I'm strange, prob this one)

I feel like hiring a yearly guard should cost more.

[Dresan]

It is great to see redstorm and luirs getting some more love. Hopefully these places will continue to grow and expand as viable alternatives to live, work and plot.

Especially Redstorm with its anti-allanak sentiments.

[BadSkeelz]

Do these changes apply to Morin's at all? I see that they don't have an explicit "available" space.

[Dresan]

If you put homes, and player clan options in morins(or even Cenyr), it would be hard for me to play anywhere else. You'd get the benefits of Redstorm without the clunky feeling weather/environment in the immediate surroundings.

[Taven]

If you put homes, and player clan options in morins(or even Cenyr), it would be hard for me to play anywhere else. You'd get the benefits of Redstorm without the clunky feeling weather/environment in the immediate surroundings.

I think it's really about the culture, rather then the weather. Red Storm has a completely different favor then Morin's or Cenyr. Personally, I think the locations can help reflect the type of PC and the personality you want to make.

Do these changes apply to Morin's at all? I see that they don't have an explicit "available" space.

I suspect that Morin's is literally the only player-stater location (apart from tribals) that you cannot do this, which is why things were phrased how they were.

If you ask the staff, they may be able to confirm that.

[bardlyone]

If you put homes, and player clan options in morins(or even Cenyr), it would be hard for me to play anywhere else. You'd get the benefits of Redstorm without the clunky feeling weather/environment in the immediate surroundings.

For m personally I'd love homes/apartments/warehouse spaces in Cenyr. I already love playing merchants. The idea of being able to play one at what is supposed to be an exotic trade hub and in a place not dominated by GMH influence already... that's the dream. Morin's... well, I'm indifferent to. I haven't been a fan of Tuluk since 2009, no offense Tuluk, and Morin's is pretty much just an extension of Tuluk, as far as I'm concerned.

[Dresan]

The culture is one of the coolest parts of Redstorm. Its that culture thats has allowed some cool people and stuff to flourish in redstorm. Its one of the things I would miss from not playing in Redstorm, then again Morins comes with tattoos that give you a lot of good background history.

If you put homes, and player clan options in morins(or even Cenyr), it would be hard for me to play anywhere else. You'd get the benefits of Redstorm without the clunky feeling weather/environment in the immediate surroundings.

For m personally I'd love homes/apartments/warehouse spaces in Cenyr. I already love playing merchants. The idea of being able to play one at what is supposed to be an exotic trade hub and in a place not dominated by GMH influence already...

This! I actually had a experience like this with my last merchant, it made me fall in love with the guild and even the game all over again.   

[Adhira]

Do these changes apply to Morin's at all? I see that they don't have an explicit "available" space.

Nope.

[Reiloth]

Question on Red Storm: It says that one would pay '2000 a year to Nenyuk', but there is no Nenyuk Bank in Red Storm last I checked. Would this be to the Sand Lord or are there virtual Nenyuki constituents in Red Storm? I'm assuming the latter, as they presumably run the apartments there.

[Xalle]

Granted that there is just one space available in a number of spots (westside, eastside, gemmed, RSV, Luirs), and granted that people can go casual -- which I read as: go on vacation for a few months -- I'm a little concerned we might have people sitting on those coveted locations.

Since I can't really formulate a question about this, I guess it's a concern.  Uh, question: thoughts?

We'll be trying to keep one space available for active play. If somebody let's us know they're just playing casually now and then and just brings flavour and RP goodness to the table, that's fine by me and no need to worry about hogging a spot and denying others as we can work round that.  The limits are partly to keep workload manageable on our side. If people start bringing headaches/cheats to this system we may have to revisit, but that's how it is atm.

Does this mean that you're now allowed to specialize in areas that are usually 'taken' by the huge amount of goods covered by other minor merchant houses and major merchant houses?  Maybe those will become more specialized as well, or something?

Best way to check this kind of thing is via request with the idea you have in mind. We don't want to impose massive restrictions on PCs because v/npcs are hogging all the markets. That doesn't sound interesting and fun at all!

Would out of city include literal out of city, say outside of Luirs or Nak somewhere or something.

'Out of city' in this case means rinth, Red Storm, Luir's.

Question on Red Storm: It says that one would pay '2000 a year to Nenyuk', but there is no Nenyuk Bank in Red Storm last I checked. Would this be to the Sand Lord or are there virtual Nenyuki constituents in Red Storm? I'm assuming the latter, as they presumably run the apartments there.

Oopla, this should be Sand Lord, yes. 10 points for observation! Fixed original post.

[Desertman]

Looks good, or at least a lot more viable than the last iteration.

The 'rent' seems incredibly low, as does the pay for NPCs.

A garbage apartment above the Gaj costs between 400 and 750 coins a cycle, or about 2.5k to 4.5k a year.

3k a year (3.3k with taxes) seems incredibly low for premium real estate, considering these spaces are even more limited and (at least thematically, I'd think) in demand than some crappy flop crammed haphazard above a grungy tavern.

You can't buy a fancy sword for less than a 800 coins or a respectable suit of armor for less than 1,000 coins. The cost of hiring the T'zai Byn for a one-time escort is like 500-800 coins and a bag of salt sells for about 450 coins. 1000 coins for a year of around the clock NPC protection seems way, way, way below economic standards. The same can be said for a merchant or even a barker, unless it's a dwarf or a breed or something.

True independents can deal in pretty much whatever they want to make ends meet and thus make the money required to foot the bill for these spaces as they were previously priced.

Now, when you go the MMH Building Route, you are no longer a true independent. You more or less work for Nenyuk, if you want to think of it that way, and play by their rules in regards to more or less everything you will be allowed to do. Cash-flow is going to be required to come, in a large part, from this one thing you have agreed to focus on. (Which in my opinion is just boring down the concept to the same general bland experience you get playing in every other House that already existed.)

You basically agree to take on a lot of restrictions on what you can and can't deal in and agree to more or less intentionally put yourself at odds with other people you will probably also have to pay in exchange for getting the chance to maybe build something. Since the only things worth actually dealing in are already monopolized by the great Houses, I have to think this is by design. Basically, you are going to agree to potentially put yourself at odds with a great House, and depending on how you navigate that relationship be wiped out or make a good friend....a friend you will almost certainly have to pay.

In my opinion, it takes a lot of the fun out of playing an independent for me.

With this system I would more or less just rather operate out of a couple of apartments to make sure I had enough space and be able to deal in whatever I want and enjoy navigating those interesting paths without a lot of oversight and meddling into my ideas.


tldr: Yes, the prices are low. They were lowered because A) It needed to be easier to attract more people to try it. Basically, it was too hard for most people to deal with. B) Things were going to become more restricted on what you could do in order to make money, but we had to ensure that firm grip on control, so, it was better to just lower costs.

With that being said, the changes are going to appeal to A LOT more people, but more or less in the same way being able to see your skill level appeals to a lot more people. While I admit it is going to be enjoyable for more people, and thus, is probably a good change, I don't care for it personally. I feel it got a little too much easy-mode injected into it and a tad too much in the way of "control mechanisms" added to it.

[Miradus]

Yeah, I didn't want to say nothing, but as a sometimes indie merchant, I really would not bother screwing around with that system when an apartment will hold most of the raw materials I need and provide a semi-safe place for me to craft.

I was intrigued at the thought of owning a small shop but it just feels complicated. There's no clear roadmap for it.

[Reiloth]

Uh, the road map is pretty much spelled out for you in Xalle's post. What could be broken down more?

[Miradus]

Handholding.

[Majikal]

There's countless benefits, both thematically, realistically and codedly to having a coded player clan with a warehouse/whatever versus a.. uhh.. apartment spam-craft empire.

Seeing this all getting fleshed out more really makes me want to get some of my ideas moving. I've pulled some interesting things off without coded indie clan support in the past, I can only imagine would could be accomplished with the tools in place to get it done right.

[Reiloth]

Handholding.

Handholding could be spelled out more?

OK, why you need handholding from Staff (I'm assuming). Because -- It isn't an automated system like renting an apartment. Each iteration of a player clan is going to be different from the last. There are PC levels of interaction at play here -- The powers that be, whether that's a Templar or a Kuraci PC. It's a fluid system, because a static system would basically be a WoW 'Question Mark' NPC quest system in order to get your l33t warehouse space. The point of this whole system is the story behind it, not grinding to get a bunch of coin to unlock the next 'shopkeeper level'. Removing things like requiring your shopkeeper to only sell your/your clan's Master Crafts moves away from the elitist coin-mongering system and into a more flavorful, realistic quality. Having Staff around to guide you towards the vision of the game, rather than your own personal (OOC) ambitions to affect the game/make your claim to fame last, is a good thing. That's probably more than half of the reason Staff is around -- Quality Control.

Would you like to know more?

[Evilone]

Want to add on a little more incentive for people to go the player clan created progression path instead of just being independent and working out of apartments? Once you hit Trading Company level you can buy a generic description small wagon. Then at MMH, you can get an argosy. I would really love to see more people travelling and transporting cargo via wagons. Loosing a wagon should get your ass handed to you, but it shouldn't necessarily be the end of the world either. We have the code for them, let's really use it.

[Miradus]

The only reason I would want to go down this route is to get an NPC employee who sits on a rug in the bazaar and sells my shit.

But I don't really see a means of doing that a la cart. Am I missing something?

[Armaddict]

I think the main thing you're missing is something that either isn't for you, or you haven't developed it, which is having a real, concrete place in the game world.  What you're doing is fine, but after several times doing it, some people start to set their sights higher.

Also, it is a much better way to fully 'fit in' to the game world, and bring it to life more through your character's exploits.  Sure, it may take some extra time on your part, but that means what...less solo crafting, to send in reports instead?

Not blaming you, but as a long time player, I think these kinds of things, even if they may seem insignificant to some, are tremendous things to have around as an -option- even if they're not particularly well-used.

[Miradus]

Oh yeah. Absolutely I love the option being in the game, even if it's one of a dozen features I am not likely to avail myself of.

That would be my hope in a game, that it's big enough for all types of players to find their niche and what they enjoy, and also to evolve or devolve or change it up as they go.