Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain

[Lizzie]

I think it's all a matter of perspective. I don't have any special powers or favors from staff that lets me skill-gain any faster than anyone else. I'm pretty sure other players and staff combined can attest to the fact that my PCs do NOT skill-gain any faster than most other PCs, in fact.

And yet, I manage to have long-lived characters who take risks. I have characters that piss people off, get involved in other peoples' conflicts, adventure and explore, fall off shield walls, crawl into dark places not knowing what'll show up when I light my torch, visit the enemy territory, spot a bahamet and wander in that direction anyway.

I have never maxed out a character. Ever. I've come close, with 1 rukkian and 1 ranger. I can count the PKs I've "accomplished" on one hand, and on my list of characters, around half were assassinated (as opposed to random PK, which as far as I know has never happened to any of my characters), and around half were stored. Only a few spider/gith/raptor deaths among a few dozen PCs total.

I can keep a PC active, risk-taking, and alive, for many RL months with no problem - and STILL not max out their skills. A little tavern-sitting, a little adventuring, a little political drama, sometimes spending a full hour doing nothing but working on skills - and sometimes hanging around waiting for other people to show up. Most of my characters stay around for a minimum of 2 RL months, with a minimum of 10 days played.

I don't have the experience some of you seem to have - I don't know what it is you're doing that's causing you to even THINK about having to skill-up, or worry about being the victim of PvP or PvE. If it's really that much of a problem that you feel the game needs to change, maybe you should look into why it keeps happening to your characters? Because I can assure you, it's not happening to mine so it can't possibly be the game. If it was the game, everyone who strives to play long-lived characters that take risks (including myself) would experience the same thing.

People who don't take risks - no they wouldn't be experiencing these problems. But the ones that do - would. If it were the game causing it and not the individual player talking about it. So ask yourself - what is it about YOUR characters that is attracting so much PvP and/or PvE grief that you are sick of having to skill-grind just to keep up?

Remember, you don't have to be able to duke it out with a duskhorn to survive as a ranger, warrior, thief, etc. etc. If the only goal you set is "survivability" that's easy: Find a spot to forage that's within 1 room of a fairly safe spot. Forage for whatever - rocks, artifacts, mushrooms, food, kindling. Sell off whatever you don't need to eat, and use the sids you earn from selling it to buy more food and water. Boom. Instant "survivable." Boring as hell, but that seems to be your only criteria here.

[valeria]

If I could easily start every new character with the skills of a 30-40 day warrior (or class equivalent), I might play this game again.  I don't have enough time to dedicate to this game to enjoy a mostly social role.  I want to hop into the thick of it and get some shit done without worrying about dying to scrabs or 10-day-warrior-twinks.

Have you tried skill bumps?  Zoltan, an Extremely Casual Player, had a lot of good things to say about them with his last(? I can't even keep track anymore) combat-oriented PC.

[Jingo]

Boring as hell.

That's basically it. Because every time on the last handful of characters I've tried not to be bored as hell, I've been punished for it. And not really in ways that were really deserving of punishment, it's just that players can't figure out what to do when they have an I WIN button on hand.

[Lizzie]

Boring as hell.

That's basically it. Because every time on the last handful of characters I've tried not to be bored as hell, I've been punished for it. And not really in ways that were really deserving of punishment, it's just that players can't figure out what to do when they have an I WIN button on hand.

Then the solution is easy: stop trying to win. When you win, you get bored. You don't like being bored. So stop trying to win.

[Jingo]

Uhh no. I'm not playing to win. And that's why I keep getting shit on.

[Miradus]

Uhh no. I'm not playing to win. And that's why I keep getting shit on.

I am a proponent of the solitary multiplayer game life sometimes.

On the pvp front, I have never been involved in pk here except for when some unknown guy shot an arrow at me. Didn't kill me and I wasn't skilled enough to know what to do to try and chase him down, so that's been my sole experience.

I do not like the curve though where you look at someone, gauge their potential prowess by their equipment, and then decide how to respond to them in game. "I'm going to be polite until I see at least journeyman on all my combat skills, then I'll be a dick." You know that's a thing here.

On my last couple of characters, I decided to start out just being an ass. Rude, gruff, or whatever fit the character. And I kept thinking, "Someone is going to kill me. I can't even handle a tregil yet and here I am mouthing off." Nobody did though. So I don't think pvp is really all that rampant in this game as you are led to expect from the trash talk going on here in the forum.

I am not attached to any one character. I play Arm like a roguelike game. A character is fun to play for about a week and then I get bored with that character and I'm ready to start a new one. Which is about the point where I start trying to see new things and explore anyway.

It's a fun game if you don't take it so seriously.

[SuchDragonWow]

It's a fun game if you don't take it so seriously.

The truth about Armageddon, here.  Every time I've tried to take it too seriously, try too hard, accomplish some kind of legacy, or pretty much anything that wasn't in the spirit of having a little fun on the internet ...  Every time I've met with grief.  The kind of stuff that sours you on the game, and people, in general.

I suppose that's played a big part in me becoming a more casual player.  I went from the die-hard, three hours a days player, to maybe three hours a week.  And I'm not asking anyone to cater to me.  But I think it'd be cool if casual characters were more relevant.

Then again, if your goal is to get gud, there are so many superior outlets in our modern world to cater to your desires.

PVP?  Much better gaming options available.
PVE?  Much better gaming options available.

We play this game because there is no parallel, no greater option for roleplay.

RP?  We got that shit.

So, if our goal is to create a story together, well ...  Yes, skills are cool, and all.  But ultimately, they don't matter.  They're more or less tools to meet an end, just like equipment, or other characters.

[RogueGunslinger]

This thread has encouraged me to stop giving a shit about my skills. I'll see how it goes and get back to ya'll. Need a new character though, because Gruff McWarriorson isn't a very good character to try not having good skills on.

[nauta]

This thread has encouraged me to stop giving a shit about my skills. I'll see how it goes and get back to ya'll. Need a new character though, because Gruff McWarriorson isn't a very good character to try not having good skills on.

I've had very good experiences raiding without skills.  Of course, it means I really only have a PLAN B (flee) if the other end doesn't play along (including NPCs).

ETA: I had a lot more fun raiding with skills.

[Miradus]

I would just like to be more a part of the saga than some random ranger corpse out in the desert with a mindless mobile footprint on its head.

[Vwest]

Uhh no. I'm not playing to win. And that's why I keep getting shit on.

You're not getting shit on.

Getting shit on implies your character isn't responsible for people looking to ruin their day. You're the one choosing the type of character you play, you're following through with the actions you've deemed appropriate for your character and your characters are paying the price for those actions. There are no 'lamer twinks' out to victimize you, you're doing things to draw attention and ire that your characters are in no way equipped to handle.

If you're not willing to face the potential consequences, consider a character who doesn't throw rocks at sleeping lions.

http://armageddon.org/intro/about.php

[Yam]

Uhh no. I'm not playing to win. And that's why I keep getting shit on.

You're not getting shit on.

Getting shit on implies your character isn't responsible for people looking to ruin their day. You're the one choosing the type of character you play, you're following through with the actions you've deemed appropriate for your character and your characters are paying the price for those actions. There are no 'lamer twinks' out to victimize you, you're doing things to draw attention and ire that your characters are in no way equipped to handle.

If you're not willing to face the potential consequences, consider a character who doesn't throw rocks at sleeping lions.

http://armageddon.org/intro/about.php

If you don't think there are any lame twinks in Armageddon you are deeply confused and I have a shitmug to sell you.

Also it's pretty rude to condescend with that about link. People in this thread aren't complaining about IC unfairness. They are complaining about the OOC disparity from playtime and character power. Your side is pretty clear - you have a shitload of playtime and want to maintain that disparity. That's fine. I can totally understand that. I can also play a lot and I too enjoy the feeling of chopping the helpless casual masses with bone swords. But you have to recognize that you might end up playing with only a handful of other people in the future if you want to maintain that power disparity.

[Reiloth]

Uhh no. I'm not playing to win. And that's why I keep getting shit on.

You're not getting shit on.

Getting shit on implies your character isn't responsible for people looking to ruin their day. You're the one choosing the type of character you play, you're following through with the actions you've deemed appropriate for your character and your characters are paying the price for those actions. There are no 'lamer twinks' out to victimize you, you're doing things to draw attention and ire that your characters are in no way equipped to handle.

If you're not willing to face the potential consequences, consider a character who doesn't throw rocks at sleeping lions.

http://armageddon.org/intro/about.php

#skillshaming

I mean, should people not play their PCs to the hilt, just because you play a long lived whatever? If they're an asshole and would throw stones at a sleeping lion, should they not? I guess you are saying people shouldn't be surprised if they do, that the lion eats them. That, I do agree with.

And I agree with Yam -- If you don't think there are lame twinks on Arm, maybe you are one of them?

[SuchDragonWow]

There's no need for the finger pointing.  This isn't a trump rally.

[Reiloth]

There's no need for the finger pointing.  This isn't a trump rally.

Does that make Twinks Trumpers and Casuals Feel the Bern? 

[Armaddict]

Uhm.

This is only degrading further away from the point, which was iterated many times and even -somewhat- supported by a staff post...

Increased skill gains will not help the casual player.  They will likely harm the casual player.  This is in terms of player against player, which is what Jingo seems to have a perpetual problem with (along with the constant assertion across threads that veterans are somehow out to get him and that most of them are twinks controlling the game to keep their advantage).

I would tell you that there are more twinks concerned with what their skill levels are at than twinks who are not concerned with it.  But people saying they like a long progression, complete with a period of weakness for your character to deal with and overcome, does not 'out them' as a bitter vet trying to keep you down, or a twink who's trying to manipulate things to kill you because you don't skill up.  It seems to me that the people telling you to be patient and that skills stop mattering very quickly are the opposite of twinks...those are people telling you that as long as you -do- play the game, you'll progress in whatever arena you want.

There is nothing quite like having a 100 day character killed by simple violence that if you'd twinked up, you wouldn't have died that way.  Sure, it's really unsatisfying.  But that doesn't somehow degrade what I accomplished with my 100 day character with apprentice dual wield and apprentice piercing weapons.  Just because some dude got up to journeyman and whooped my ass didn't make that character not worth playing.  This is a permadeath game.  Not a permalive game.  Death is what fosters the paranoia, fosters the intrigue, fosters the fight, and fosters the idea that -yes-, you should be suspicious of other players.  This is not all of us banding together to go out and make tons of coins; that requires a lot more trust than most characters earn from mine.  That is not cutting down on interaction, either.  I'm interacting whenever I need to, and being wary when I need to.  So I can empathize, I really can, but I also think when you guys go off on skills needing to be revamped because of a rampant twink problem, you're coming from a very out of touch perspective drowned out by misgivings of yours.

[Reiloth]

But can't 100 day whatevers be killed by simple violence anyways, regardless of skill level?

[Armaddict]

But can't 100 day whatevers be killed by simple violence anyways, regardless of skill level?

Yes.

That's why the whole 'not twinking screws me over' is one of those things where I'm not sure what you expect the game/code to do about it.  Yes, it's a shitty feeling.  No, it's not something about the game that needs to be changed/fixed, because it's not a fault or something that's broken.

[valeria]

But can't 100 day whatevers be killed by simple violence anyways, regardless of skill level?

A meteor strike doesn't care how many days played and how master your 'slashing weapons' skill is.

... but more seriously, I understand why people want to have more skills.  Everyone wants to be competent so that they can have fun, being incompetent is rarely as fun unless you're doing it on purpose.  But there are skill bumps now that help address this and are specifically targeted at more casual players, and from the brief osmosis experience I've had with them, it sounds like they help a fair bit.

[Reiloth]

But can't 100 day whatevers be killed by simple violence anyways, regardless of skill level?

Yes.

That's why the whole 'not twinking screws me over' is one of those things where I'm not sure what you expect the game/code to do about it.  Yes, it's a shitty feeling.  No, it's not something about the game that needs to be changed/fixed, because it's not a fault or something that's broken.

Because i'm not talking about PvE, i'm talking about PvP. The ability to enter plot lines / be involved is stifled by the fact that 'you aren't skilled enough yet'. This is the culture of skill shaming that I am talking about.

I don't think it's a problem to involve day 0 assassins to try and off some nobody merchant. You don't need the uber talented to get things done. Sure, you want them to be somewhat competent, but i've been shut out of plots for not having grinded enough training. That's the culture i'd like to see shift, and with it, you will find casuals more willing to be around.

[Reiloth]

But can't 100 day whatevers be killed by simple violence anyways, regardless of skill level?

A meteor strike doesn't care how many days played and how master your 'slashing weapons' skill is.

... but more seriously, I understand why people want to have more skills.  Everyone wants to be competent so that they can have fun, being incompetent is rarely as fun unless you're doing it on purpose.  But there are skill bumps now that help address this and are specifically targeted at more casual players, and from the brief osmosis experience I've had with them, it sounds like they help a fair bit.

Yes, but skill bumps are now special applications, not the regular old 'Extended Subguild' sort of app/turn around. I personally have no interest in applying for special application like apps, due to the wait time. When I get the itch to play the game, I prefer to just play the PC I got, or apply for a regular old joe as far as options go, because I don't want to sit around for up to 30 days. Until the system becomes more automated (much like the Ext. Subguilds are now, magicker sub guilds) i'm not really going to bother with special apps (unless something special comes to mind).

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50840.0.html

3 skill bumps isn't going to make or break anything, really. It's nice, and in one or two skills, you might feel the effect, but without a more broad sweep (The Jman at some, with advanced caps, and no master caps, things discussed in this thread), I don't think it helps casual players much.

Casual players also don't want to create undue paperwork for Staff, because they don't feel like they are worth the extra time I know that. I don't really want to bother Staff to do X Y Z for me, because I might not be around enough to justify it. The more casual and easily streamlined a system is, the more you will appeal to a casual player. Case in point is extended sub guilds -- I applied for these, especially when I had more time, but when I had the itch to play and no PC, I would more often then not just app a 'whatever'. So I might even app for a tailor rather than master tailor, just because I could get in game that night and get my casual fix. Now that I can app for extended sub guilds via the character tool, and not the request tool, for sure I use them more.

In essence -- The easier it is for a casual player to make a PC, log in, and have fun, the more they will be around/stick around I think. I don't think it's about holding casual players hands -- I'm a vet of many years, I have no problem with spending time on backgrounds or doing the request tool or whatever. But I think the more hurdles you have, the more a longtime vet or simply a casual player will be like "Ehhhhh...You know what...I think i'll just play Dragon Age: Inquisition instead, it'll give me my 20 minutes of fun and I can go do something else". Not to say that's the type of player best suited to ArmageddonMUD, but the demographic i'm most interested in keeping around is the Vet who simply doesn't have enough time to be the same awesome Vet they are anymore, so they'd like to be casually involved with Armageddon.

Hope that makes sense. There's been some great discussion and answers here, and i'll step away from the troll button station to better facilitate that.

[Vwest]

If you don't think there are any lame twinks in Armageddon you are deeply confused and I have a shitmug to sell you.

Not really my place to make the call.

If I feel like someone is doing something they shouldn't be, I mention it in one of my character reports.

Your side is pretty clear - you have a shitload of playtime and want to maintain that disparity. That's fine. I can totally understand that. I can also play a lot and I too enjoy the feeling of chopping the helpless casual masses with bone swords. But you have to recognize that you might end up playing with only a handful of other people in the future if you want to maintain that power disparity.

You missed some moderated content so I'm going to ignore some of your post, as well as snip it from the quote.

There is no benefit to the casual with a blanket increase in skill gains. If the casual gets it, so does everyone else. There is nothing to be gained from that but power creep.

If this was really about equality for the casual, we would be discussing slowing down skill gains.

Think about it:

Let's assume we gain a skill up an hour now.

Now, let's increase it to three per hour. If the casual can only invest 45 minutes a day, they're missing out on a chunk of those gains that the average player, who can invest the full hour or more, is going to benefit from.

Now, let's lower it to once every six hours. Now, unless you can commit over six hours a day, it doesn't matter if you play an hour or two or three, you're on the same footing as most everyone else.

If someone can invest more than six hours into the game per day? They still won't be able to pull away as far or as fast as they can with things as they are now.

I guess you are saying people shouldn't be surprised if they do, that the lion eats them.

That is exactly my point.

[Armaddict]

I, personally, have had no problems getting into plots straight out of the gate, assuming I get exposed to them.  This happens with 'rinthers and bynners alike, and I've never been told 'You're not good enough'.  Maybe that's because of how I carry myself as a veteran player, or what-have-you...but this is purely anecdotal and I don't expect you to change your mind on this matter.

I think skillshaming, where it exists, is likely out of the drive to help you survive as a character, rather than a 'you can't do this'.  I'm not sure the current leadership atmosphere is very supportive of 'send people off to die', even though that's how things once were and it was a blast, particularly for criminals.

That's the culture i'd like to see shift, and with it, you will find casuals more willing to be around.

This is a really interesting digression from this particular topic, but one really worth exploring.  I know I (and I think Majikal?) talk about risk-aversion a lot...maybe we need to look at the entire hubbub to directly promote PvP as a whole?

I've been under the impression for a few years now that the community as a whole really frowned on PvP unless it was part of some big plot.  I willingly engage in it, if there's a reason (some characters have more reasons than others), but if what you say above is true, we kinda need it to be a lot more common as a whole so that someone -failing- to kill someone else is not such a tremendous deal that it leads to uber-assassins all over the place.

[Armaddict]

I like Reiloth's place here, even though I think I misunderstood it at first.  I thought he meant something else by skillshaming, but it appears that he's talking about low-skill characters being made irrelevant as a whole...and I would say, indeed, that a large part of that has to do with people waiting to start anything until they're capable of killing off others with confidence.

This should likely be a new thread, though.

[Lizzie]

But can't 100 day whatevers be killed by simple violence anyways, regardless of skill level?

Yes.

That's why the whole 'not twinking screws me over' is one of those things where I'm not sure what you expect the game/code to do about it.  Yes, it's a shitty feeling.  No, it's not something about the game that needs to be changed/fixed, because it's not a fault or something that's broken.

Because i'm not talking about PvE, i'm talking about PvP. The ability to enter plot lines / be involved is stifled by the fact that 'you aren't skilled enough yet'. This is the culture of skill shaming that I am talking about.

I don't think it's a problem to involve day 0 assassins to try and off some nobody merchant. You don't need the uber talented to get things done. Sure, you want them to be somewhat competent, but i've been shut out of plots for not having grinded enough training. That's the culture i'd like to see shift, and with it, you will find casuals more willing to be around.

Part of the reason why new characters are cautioned to be patient, is because sometimes these are played by new players. New players need to learn the syntax. They need to learn the combat system, they need to learn about flee and ep/etwo/es. They need to learn to type stat score skills inv eq once in awhile, to keep track of the "full list" of their character data. They can't do that if they're being dragged out on a Byn mission on their first RL day playing the game.

So for you, Reiloth, and any other longer-playing player, there are skill bumps you can request, to give you that initial boost necessary to be capable of riding from the Nakki west gate to the shield wall without falling off your mount more than once. Or being capable of getting at least one solid hit on a rat that scurries along Stonecarver road, before you have to flee.  Or make at least one successful pair of linen scarves within the first 3 tries. That's what skill bumps are for.

For the rest of us, we don't worry too much about competing in a PvP contest, and spend more time playing the RP game and let the skillups occur instead of chasing after them.