Subdue and the repercussions

[Rindan]

There is a difference between a surprise subdue, and one that is expected.  I have no problem with a guy hiding, and then all of a sudden subduing me.  That is like a guy all of a sudden blowing in from behind you and grappling with you.  It is fair enough in my book.  I would have no problem if a combination of hide and subdue worked just like the way it does.  However, I do take issue with a guy who does not have surprise subduing a guy with a weapon, and the code letting them get away with it.  Simply put, if a person has a weapon – especially a skilled warrior, a guy with bare hands is in deep shit.  There is a reason why people don't throw aside their weapons and tackle each other, instead of choosing to use a weapon.  

The simple fact is that if I have a mace, sword, dagger, whatever weapon you can think of, I have a zone around me that can't be crossed unless you either deflect my weapon or are ready to take a very hard hit.  Further, having a weapon does not glue you to the ground.  If my feet were nailed to the ground, there might be some validity in saying that a guy with bare hands can duck his way past or close the distance with only minimal pain.  However, a guy with a weapon can also back up.  True, he can't do it as fast as one can run forward, but a mace across the head combined with a step back is all it takes to leave your attack very much dead.  One landed strike against an unarmed person and you can pretty much assume their hope of grappling with you is over.

If you want to subdue a merchant holding a dagger, or something weak like that, I don't have much of an issue with it.  You probably can get past him.  However, a 20+ day warrior with his weapons held at ready should not have to worry about being subdued by anything short of a horde of people, or an absolute god at combat.  A big slow newbie half giant should have absolutely no chance at getting a hold of this guy.  As things stand now, one of the biggest dangers to a highly skilled warrior is a newbie half giant subduing him.  No big dumb slow giant should stand a chance.  It should have every bone in its body broken and the grapple easily side stepped.

I don't take issue with unarmed people being subdued, nor with people who are sitting down.  However, if a guy has a weapon out and clearly has a 'zone' around him a slender speedy spear can't get past, then an entire unarmed humanoid should have no chance unless it is vastly more skilled.

If I had my way, subduing someone who is standing with weapons readied would have three results.  If the defender is superior to roughly equal in combat to the subduer, then code acts simply like combat was initiated, which is to say that the subduer is in deep crap because he has no weapon.  If they are roughly equal in ability to the subduer being superior in ability, then the subduer will get his chance to make his roll to subdue, but first the defender gets a round of attacks in.  So, the subduer might get a hold of the guy, but he also might be in bad shape when he finally gets past that weapon.  Finally, if the subduer is vastly superior in ability, the defender is unarmed, the defender is not standing, or the subduer is hidden before he tries to subdue, then the code will work like it does now.

So, if you want foot ball tackle the guy with the base ball bat (or two heavy stone hammers), then he better be less then ready (IE, not standing or not armed), or you better actually be making a surprise attack (IE, using the hide command before attacking).

[Carnage]

Go ahead and try to subdue someone with a baseball bat at three feet. Just because they have a weapon doesn't mean that's all they're going to use. They can kick you in the genitals, then overhead swing at you while you're doubled over. Or just back off a step, or send out a wild kick to keep you at range and then swing.

Honestly, you're not going to be able to really subdue someone while they're expecting it without them getting off a hit or two. Let's not even go into the intricate parts of it, because nobody here is an authority on the subject nor knows exactly what's going to happen. There's so many variables, feelings, and everything happening at once.

I think most of us can agree, however, that chances are, your opponent is going to get a chance to hit you before you can subdue them.

Three feet isn't far, if you factor in having to get enough backswing to hurt a person, that baseball bat is either not going to hurt him, or its not going to make it to him in time before he grabs you. And thats that.

[Gorobei]

If we're talking about a newbie warrior, maybe you have a point.  If he has more than a day on him?
Well, in that case maybe he won't stand still and swing wildly downwards.  Maybe he'll try to push you away, then swing?  Back away from you as you rush him, or sidestep? Or jam the bat into your gut?  Who knows, might happen.
Also, have you ever acctually tried to rush someone who is holding a weapon, and is ready for you (from any distance)?  Just as an experiment, I tried it with my brother.  I gave him a cricket bat (we had one in our garage, don't ask) and ran at him.
I have a broken collar bone.

[X-D]

N/A Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:17 am    Post subject:  

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Three feet isn't far, if you factor in having to get enough backswing to hurt a person, that baseball bat is either not going to hurt him, or its not going to make it to him in time before he grabs you. And thats that.

missing one of the points here, one is, "weapons at ready" Don't know about you but if I am even playing baseball I do not stand at the plate with the bat in front of me when I am awaiting a pitch :wink:  That sucker is already back waiting to come forward and smack that ball out of the park, why? because I was expecting that guy out on the mound might throw that ball at me...grin.

Now, I am in complete 100% agreement with Rindan

Also, have you ever acctually tried to rush someone who is holding a weapon, and is ready for you (from any distance)? Just as an experiment, I tried it with my brother. I gave him a cricket bat (we had one in our garage, don't ask) and ran at him.
I have a broken collar bone.

Ouch, I would have put on some armor first, Hockey gear would probly be best.

[Twilight]

I'm going to basically ignore the previous few posts and the counter arguments in my head, although most people had some good points.

Instead I'll try to offer something constructive. Ack!

I'd leave subdue the way it is, perhaps make it harder to subdue somewhat if the victim has weapons out.  I would put in a chance, based on size of subduer and victim that on a successful subdue, both people are set to sitting.  If the subduer stands after his lag, so does the victim.  If the victim stands before the subduer, its a chance, like flee, to break the hold.  If successful, he stands and breaks the hold, if not he stays sitting and subdued.

Make it so if you are subdued, you can type kill <subduer>.  This will initiate combat, with quite a few negatives to damage.  The victim will do damage based on their biting, using elbows, stepping on feet, etc.  There would be a chance, every x seconds of this combat, of the victim becoming free (like fleeing).  If this happens, the subduer instead of attacking will inflict pain modified by their subdue skill that will do stun damage -only-.  If you are the subduer and type kill, it puts you in the same combat mode, victim gets the same to flee, etc.  If you the subduer want to kill the victim normally, you need to release them, then type kill.  I would figure in the sap of both subduer and victim to modify subduer's stun damage as well.

There aren't all that many great subdual holds out there.  Lots can be broken.  If the victim is willing to dislocate something or have one of their bones broken, they can break almost any hold.  In any grappling situation, there is the chance you are going to end up on the ground, whether because that is where you want to grapple someone to, or they are struggling enough that it is where you end up.  Thus the chance to end up sitting.  As someone who is a victim, there are very-very-very few holds where you cannot cause at least some damage to your attacker.  Thus adding in kill for the victim.  As the person subduing, your hold is generally effective because you can use it to cause pain to the victim, you can choke the victim, or you can break something of theirs if they struggle.  This would be represented by stun damage to them if they attempt to fight back, or if the subduer types kill.  I think this makes much more sense, its not like in a grapple you have this open opportunity to hit the victim, generally your arms are used to maintain the grapple, but you do have the opportunity to cause them pain, choke them, etc.

This might be a bit too complicated.  But I like complicated.

[creeper386]

Well going back to the original arguement something about a HG subduing a good fighter when he had his weapons out...

Half Giants are stupid and slow right? So how could they POSSIBLY subdue someone no problem... Acctually makes good sense...

They are MASSIVE... The good just grab you by the head from ABOVE your weapons and pick you up... Not going to be doing much when your lifted by your head... They could just tackle you ending up in you being a little human splatter mixed between the ground and the HG...

It doesn't matter how un-agile something is... Even if they are a large bulky thing... If they have such extreme muscle they could move quickly in short bursts...

Sure if they were running it would take them awhile to probably get up to speed... But most everything, the first burst is alot quicker then how fast you are running.. It's soley dependant on muscle.

Take a small car, versus bigger car... Bigger car over all has more muscle(Horsepower). If driven right theirs a good chance the big car well have a better time off the line, but then it's acceleration slows down, while the little cars acceleration increases... Well right now I'm down with all the relevant information to this discussion so I'm stopping.

Now... If that HG was in a reasonable reach... Which I would think is much longer then a humans... Probably about 4-5 feet instead of 2-3 feet, thats just arm length could add a few more feet for movement... In a quick burst could easiely grab hold of even an experienced warrior...

Now I'm done... I'm sure people are going to really debate me on this... But even with weapons you can't cover every little area... Personally I'm a scrawny guy, only about 170 pounds on alittle over 6' and if I'm within 3 feet and you have two four foot swords... Even RL swords... Your still screwed... Now if your REALLY good at fighting... Your probably not going to be stupid enough to use the blades in that close of range...

Okay Sorry... I think NOW I'm done... I think...

Creeper

[YellowCactus]

Why not up the difficulty level when subduing armed people?  Maybe thats already in place.  Don't know.

[Ezikel]

It doesn't matter how un-agile something is... Even if they are a large bulky thing... If they have such extreme muscle they could move quickly in short bursts...

Sure if they were running it would take them awhile to probably get up to speed... But most everything, the first burst is alot quicker then how fast you are running.. It's soley dependant on muscle.

Erm, Lion has more muscle than a Cheeta, the cheeta is more agile, who do you think will be quickest of the mark, and proberbly get away?  Ill give you a hint... its not the Lion.

Take a small car, versus bigger car... Bigger car over all has more muscle(Horsepower). If driven right theirs a good chance the big car well have a better time off the line, but then it's acceleration slows down, while the little cars acceleration increases... Well right now I'm down with all the relevant information to this discussion so I'm stopping.

Ok, this is a bad analogy.

Im going to asume 'bigger' ment heavier in terms of weight/size and a bigger better engine, a small comparison... Porshe 911 turbo Vs Mini cooper... who do you think has the best 0-60?

Now... If that HG was in a reasonable reach... Which I would think is much longer then a humans... Probably about 4-5 feet instead of 2-3 feet, thats just arm length could add a few more feet for movement... In a quick burst could easiely grab hold of even an experienced warrior...

Ok heres another senario, say this HG with his big reach goes for my head I have an obsidian sword and i saw him coming (remember, they once found a stone knife with a 1 molecule edge).  Do you think, no mater how taller than me he is, that im going for his body?  No, that HG is loosing a limb, a fore-arm... at least some fingers.



As everyone pretty much said, if the person is sitting or the attacker is hiding then its going to be pretty easy for the attacker.  If the victim is standing without weapons, same, standing but attacker hiding, attacker has the advantage again.  Victim is has weapons then victim has a decent advantage, if attacker is hiding again, i still think the victim would have a better chance then when he had no weapons.

I could go on, basiclly what MUST be done (im not sure if its already being done) is that skills be taken into account, and im sure there are various other factors too.  One thing im not sure about is if the attacker and victim have enough space.  Im not sure the code can take into account the space and/or how many other ppl in the location but there would proberbly advantage for the weapon holder if theres lots of room, the other way round for if theres hardly any.

Im sure im forgetting something... hmm

[Armaddict]

I didn't read too much of this.  I saw where it got to half-giants and felt I should remind you:

There was relatively recently a post concerning the prowess of half-giants, and how it could be more accurately portrayed without them having to use the subdue/kill method.

It was stated (I'm not quoting, so I will not be perfectly accurate.  But this is what I got from the message.) that half-giants were plenty powerful enough, and that the subdue/kill method -was- a reflection of that prowess.  I had been trying to say we should increase their -actual- combat capability so that the unfulfilling half-giant subdue/kill death could be toned down or made unnecessary...but that pretty much seemed to say to me 'Use it, it is what makes half-giants scary and if it happens to you, it's probably your fault for messing with a big bad half-giant or being where one will kill you'.

Once again, I'm not sure if this is an accurate interpretation of what was said, but that's what I got out of it, and so I cannot possibly feel bad about the tactic anymore.  It's a reflection of close-proximity prowess, simple as that.  I'm going to have to learn to live with that unfulfilling death, because a compromise to allow it to be removed doesn't seem to be in the near future.

[Yang]

I disagree that subduing people with weapons should be more difficult. In Aikido (search on google video you'll find lots of examples), practitioners approach people with weapons the same as they do without, and often the armed person's confidence in their weapons creates a natural imbalance in their position, which of course is exploited and followed through to a very, very effective pin or subdue.

In fact, the code doesn't allow pins or subdues as nasty and realistic as are taught in various martial arts here on earth. Consider yourselves all lucky for that.

[jmordetsky]

I hate subdue in it's current incarnation.

Very over powered.

[jmordetsky]

I disagree that subduing people with weapons should be more difficult. In Aikido (search on google video you'll find lots of examples), practitioners approach people with weapons the same as they do without, and often the armed person's confidence in their weapons creates a natural imbalance in their position, which of course is exploited and followed through to a very, very effective pin or subdue.

In fact, the code doesn't allow pins or subdues as nasty and realistic as are taught in various martial arts here on earth. Consider yourselves all lucky for that.

There is a differnce between Akido masters and a bynner who spends a year on it.

[Quirk]

I disagree that subduing people with weapons should be more difficult. In Aikido (search on google video you'll find lots of examples), practitioners approach people with weapons the same as they do without, and often the armed person's confidence in their weapons creates a natural imbalance in their position, which of course is exploited and followed through to a very, very effective pin or subdue.

Aikido, unfortunately, is generally practiced against compliant attacks, which is why you'll find a very low opinion of it prevalent among many people who actually spar. Tomiki Aikido -does- have a form of sparring, but it's a) accepted in the points scoring system that the confrontation will be vastly in the favour of the weapons wielder and b) it vastly constricts the weapon user's techniques, pretty much down to one, a single heavy stab to a target area.

(And, before we get started on ancient traditions and battlefield-proven techniques, Aikido dates to about 1942, a development and softening of the Daito Ryu that Ueshiba learned, which in turn has no real history before its founder Sokaku Takeda, born 1868. I don't think we have any historical evidence for it being any more effective than it is today. Plenty of Ueshiba anecdotes exist of course, but given that the cult-like mentality of his followers led some of them to claim he could actually teleport, the amount of credence that can be given to them is perhaps limited.)

It's easy to make almost anything look good in choreography. And, unfortunately, that's all that many martial arts are.

The classic example of what it's really like to try and disarm someone with a knife is taking a magic marker off a five-year-old who really wants to scribble on you. Knife stabs, also, are less likely to produce fatal results than would be the case if you tried to charge down a guy with a hatchet. And, to cap it all, once you've taken the damage to get to grappling range and isolate the limb with the weapon there's absolutely no guarantee that you're going to win the ensuing struggle even if you're a better unarmed fighter - you're at a heavy disadvantage as long as you have to focus on that one limb.

Subdue on an armed opponent who can see you coming should be (for opponents of approximately similar sizes, keeping half-giants out of this for the moment) almost always suicidal, with only a slim chance of coming out on top.

Edit: I should note there's probably a slightly enhanced chance of survival if you're wearing armour thick enough to repel glancing attacks. However, this is unfortunately likely to have some impact on your speed of entry into grappling range...

In fact, the code doesn't allow pins or subdues as nasty and realistic as are taught in various martial arts here on earth. Consider yourselves all lucky for that.

Yes and no.

Speaking as a judo/BJJ guy, the way the subdue code currently works doesn't really reflect reality in any way. If someone's capable of fighting back and aware that you're attacking them, it's very very hard to gain a standing position where you have them at your mercy to the degree that you can drag them where you want unless you have other people helping you, or you're much larger and stronger than them (parent and kid style). So subduing someone and dragging them around and throwing them places is something of a polite fiction to make the job of guards easier.

What we grapplers actually do is take people to the ground good and hard, then achieve a dominant position, and yes, from there it's possible to break arms and choke people unconscious. This would generally be a pretty bad idea if they had a knife on them, however, as a lot of the effectiveness of grappling at that range relies on the inability of the person in the weaker position to land effective strikes, and you don't need a whole lot of power in a knife strike to do a lot of damage.

[Fnord]

Trying to subdue an armed victim should give the victim an attack of opportunity. If the attack is successful, there should be a chance to interrupt the subdue (some check based on damage received versus subdue skill). The subduer having a subdue skill much higher than the victim's weapon skill might negate the AoE. The subduer successfully being hidden/invis could negate the AoE altogether.

Yes, this would weaken subdue, but guess what? If you take two people of equal skill, and one is trying to wrestle, while the other is holding a sword, the wrestler is going to end up as calamari.

[Hymwen]

I dislike subdue when it is used as a substitute for normal combat as a means of killing someone. In my opinion, subdue is a skill you use to capture or restrain someone. If you're standing there with a sword and shield, facing an armed opponent, you can't convince me that the logical first choice is to charge forward and attempt to grapple the guy. That's OOC knowledge of code advantages which don't even make sense. As it is now, a half-giant can subdue someone and because subdue works like sleep, the half-giant will do crazy damage with their punch. I don't find that realistic, and when someone uses that to win then I consider it abuse.

In my insignificant opinion, subdue should be used only as a means of holding someone in place in cases such as arrest. And even then, some common sense should be involved - don't walk into a room and instantly subdue someone who has their ldesc changed to standing in the other end of the place.

So IMO:
Using subdue in a realistic manner to capture and hold someone - good
Using subdue as a surefire way to kill someone without risk - very bad

[Hymwen]

Oh, and another thing I would like to see added to subdue is a few seconds of "you approach your target" like with backstab, only it should be visible to others.

[spawnloser]

Not me.  You reach out to grab someone.  Their defense against it is the hard-coded aspects we already have...like 'nosave subdue.'  If you give this delay with warning to everyone, suddenly, noone will be able to be subdued.

[LoD]

Subdue should be be a holding position, not a striking position.

Subdue, for non-giants, should require constant attention and both hands to maintain their hold on the intended target.  Most targets that are apprehended will be wielding sharp and dangerous weapons in both hands, and the idea that someone of relative size would be able to disable both of your arms while they wound a hand back for a strike is a bit far-fetched.

These are the changes I would like to see made to the subdue skill:

:arrow: Attacking (bare fisted or otherwise) would release the subdued target prior to the strike.

Code Select Expand

>subdue elf
You subdue the willowy, black haired elf, despite his attempts to struggle.

>hit elf
You release the willowy, black haired elf, who quickly moves away.

You swing toward the willowy, black haired elf, and miss with your hit.
You swing toward the willowy, black haired elf, and miss with your hit.

This would eliminate the subdue-hit tactic in 1v1 encounters.  Flee;subdue would no longer be an effective method of attack because any aggressive movement toward the subdued victim would release them prior the strike, and would then use normal offense/defense rolls for success.  This would also lessen the encounters were a 2-hour mul subdue-kils a 50-day warrior.

:arrow: Third parties would gain a bonus on their first strike against a subdued target.

Code Select Expand

The half-giant soldier subdues you, despite your attempts to struggle.

>flee
You struggle in vain against the half-giant soldier.

The stout, broad-shouldered man lifts his blade sharply as you struggle.

The stout, broad-shouldered man slashes you extremely hard on the head.
The stout, broad-shouldered man slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way.

While the bonus to strike would be removed from the subduer, third parties would be allowed a bonus to the first strike made against a subdued opponent.  This still lends some very real danger to being subdued within a group of people, which should be played as a dangerous situation with consequences for non-compliance. (e.g. soldiers, raiders)

Additional commands associated with subdue.

The following command would be allowed while having a victim subdued to help control and maneuver:

Choke

When applying a choke hold, the subduer would be unable to move his/her opponent between rooms.  If the victim tries to escape the hold of the subduer, they will lose an additional amount of stamina and stun to the normal drain associated with struggling.

Code Select Expand

The half-giant soldier subdues you, despite your attempts to struggle.

>flee
You struggle in vain against the half-giant soldier.

Jerking a thick forearm back, the half-giant soldier says, in sirhish:
   "Hey!  You stop squirmin'!"

The half-giant soldier stops, pulling a forearm tight against your throat.

>flee
You struggle in vain agains the half-giant soldier.
You choke and gag as the half-giant soldier closes his grasp.

The half-giant soldier releases his forearm against your throat.
The half-giant soldier walks east, dragging you behind him.

The following commands would be allowed when performed upon a victim that is currently subdued:

Strike

This command would allow a specific and singular strike to be made against the subdued victim for a small amount of health.  Possible scenarios would be softening up a victim, interrogating a prisoner, teaching a lesson to someone who didn't pay for protection, giving someone some to remember you by, etc...

Code Select Expand

The lean, sinewy man is here, being held by the half-giant soldier.

Pulling on a taut, black leaher glove, the tall, pale templar says, in sirihish:
   "I'm actually pleased you've decided to be so tight-lipped..."

His mouth curling into a sadistic grin, the tall, pale templar says, in sirihish:
   "...I do enjoy my work.

>strike sinewy
You takes a step forward, backhanding the lean, sinewy man across the jaw.

Strip

The Strip command allows a third party to strip clothing, weapons, or other articles of clothing from a subdued target.  The result is not 100% effective, and provides the target with a better chance to escape.

> Stripping held objects is harder than worn objects.
> Victim has an increased chance of escaping the hold when being stripped.

Code Select Expand

The burly, one-eyed dwarf is here, held by the half-giant soldier.

Approaching with a raised glove, the grizzled sergeant says, in sirihish:
   "Leggo that sword, runt!"

>strip sword dwarf
You try to strip an obsidian longsword out of the burly, one-eyed dwarf's hand.

<delay>

Got it!

Those are a few of my thoughts that would make the subdue skill more interesting, more useful in group situations, less overpowered in 1v1 situations, and better received all around as a RP tool rather than a PK and crim-code tool.

-LoD

[Hymwen]

More things I'd like to see added to subdue:

A nice fat increase in movement delay when dragging a subdued person.

A small but continual stamina cost for holding a subdued person, so you can't keep someone locked in a wrestling grip for many hours.

[Grey Area]

Actually, I have seen a person wielding a katana quite neatly and easily immobilized by an unarmed attacker, on several occasions. Of course the skill difference between the two was quite high, but this does prove it can be done.

[jcarter]

I didn't read too much of this.  I saw where it got to half-giants and felt I should remind you:

There was relatively recently a post concerning the prowess of half-giants, and how it could be more accurately portrayed without them having to use the subdue/kill method.

It was stated (I'm not quoting, so I will not be perfectly accurate.  But this is what I got from the message.) that half-giants were plenty powerful enough, and that the subdue/kill method -was- a reflection of that prowess.  I had been trying to say we should increase their -actual- combat capability so that the unfulfilling half-giant subdue/kill death could be toned down or made unnecessary...but that pretty much seemed to say to me 'Use it, it is what makes half-giants scary and if it happens to you, it's probably your fault for messing with a big bad half-giant or being where one will kill you'.

Once again, I'm not sure if this is an accurate interpretation of what was said, but that's what I got out of it, and so I cannot possibly feel bad about the tactic anymore.  It's a reflection of close-proximity prowess, simple as that.  I'm going to have to learn to live with that unfulfilling death, because a compromise to allow it to be removed doesn't seem to be in the near future.

I think this thread came before that "recent" discussion.

[Armaddict]

Oh.

[Quirk]

Actually, I have seen a person wielding a katana quite neatly and easily immobilized by an unarmed attacker, on several occasions. Of course the skill difference between the two was quite high, but this does prove it can be done.

Um. Was the person with the katana actually genuinely trying to attack with it, or was this in the form of some kind of martial arts demonstration? I would assume the latter, because few people are going to be bold (or stupid) enough to actually face down a determined sharp-katana-wielding attacker.

I'd guess your "immobilisation" ended in some kind of standing wristlock or armlock. While it would be too harsh to say that these never work, it's very rare for them to work in practice against a resisting unarmed opponent, never mind an armed one. I know, I've tried - standing armlocks are quite legal match-winners in judo, and I've both tapped people out with them and been tapped. I think I average about one success a year with them, and always on someone less skilled. Most of the ones that actually work however don't really give you enough control to move the other person around.

Again: please, distrust choreography.

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I think it is silly for someone to dive at someone else holding weapons and not have to deal with the fact that they've got two deathgivers in their hands. There isn't any nice, clean, smooth martial arts on Zalanthas.

Personally, I find subdue to be lame as hell as it is. I love the idea of the skill, because it gives us a way of dragging someone off for RP without beating them with a club, but I think that's the purpose for it. Not a sure success (after the fact, of course) backstab that huge characters come right out of the barrel with.