Kidnapping?

[Erythil]

...It's impossible.  In a game based off murder, corruption, and betrayal, holding someone for ransom or extortion seems like a natural thing for gangs and others to do.  But due to the existence of the Way, it's really hard to pull off this kind of thing.  Since you can inform on your kidnappers' appearance and your location.


I wonder:  What if we an item introduced into the game, like a kind of handcuffs made of some special material, that cut off a person's ability to Way?  Said item would need to be expensive, but it seems like there might be a lot to be gained from the extra avenues of danger it would create.

[BadSkeelz]

Just sap someone, and then punch them back to sleep every time they wake up. The problem's not so much the Way, it's the ability to see someone's mdesc and then report it over the way.

[QuillDipper]

An item would be nuts. Too strong. But a code-functioning blidfold or maybe a poison that stops the Way, more like it

[RogueGunslinger]

A common poison that stops the way. Yes plz.

[hyzhenhok]

Expecting to be able to kidnap someone for purposes of extortion or other reasons without having your identity figured seems...optimistic. I've expressed doubt about the idea that criminal characters should be able to live batman-esque double lives before, and this is another such case.

Being able to prevent your victim from immediately recognizing where they have been dragged off to, on the other hand, seems like a reasonable concern. Experienced players will be able to pinpoint their location based on room descs in many situations, and these life-and-death situations are precisely the kind where it is the hardest for a player to keep their IC and OOC knowledge separate.

Just keeping the victim knocked out is not a very good solution. Getting knocked out is not fun because your character not only loses agency, but also the ability to respond and react to events. Blindfolds or way-stopping poison seem like a good middle ground.

[Brytta Léofa]

Bimbal tea.

[Kankfly]

Isn't there already something IG that helps with that?

[manipura]

Could always knock them out, then blindfold them to get them to where you want them.  Then give them a few doses of skellebane.
After they come to (or after you wake them up to speed that process along) they can try to Way whoever they like and they can try explaining that they're dancing at the top of the Known world and a purple man with a jozhal head and a woman who looks like their dead mother are the ones who brought them there.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Being knocked out is not fun. Kidnapping is also not practical in game because it's a game and we (presumably) have lives. Depending on when you decide to KO and kidnap me, I might just have to quit OOC on your ass because I've got shit to do. You'd pretty much need to be able to get your ransom paid up same day for it to even work.

That being said, a way blocking substances of some kind would be absolutely amazing. I've said before that the Way imposes all KINDS of issues with RP-ability, and kidnapping is just one example of something that's reasonable to do in real life, but impossible to do in game. Other things like playing dead or laying low are far more common examples.

Maybe there could be a poison that straight out blocks you from the way as if you were logged off. Just pulls your mind right off the grid. Maybe certain psion skills could still detect you, but 'contact' would be useless. You could dose a victim with it in order to interrogate them safely. Or you could brew it into tablets and eat it yourself if you needed to play dead for a while. (Or get away from other players hassling you.)

Maybe it could be a spice? Or a rare black stone that's only foragable in the Sea of Silt or some shit. But when wearing / holding it, same thing. All kinds of possibilities.

[Beethoven]

Please yes, a substance that blocks you off from the Way. That would be so amazingly sweet.

[Armaddict]

I always just gave them a very brief window of time to reach -my- head, or they'd die.

[Kankfly]

Isn't there already something IG that helps with that?

To correct myself, isn't there already a substance IG that helps with that, is what I mean.

[Erythil]

Way-blocking poisons and tablets get a thumbs up from me.

[Majikal]

While I like the idea of more things that serve this function there are things in game that do just that without simply keeping someone unconscious (which isn't fun for anyone involved I don't think).

[Lizzie]

There are both magickal and mundane methods to aide in successful kidnapping already. I'd love to see an additional ability to bind someone's hands and feet and blindfold them. That way - once you've done the kidnapping, you can keep them where they are until you're ready to let them go/send them back/kill them.

But in order to do the hand/foot/sight binding, you also need to be able to feed/pour foods and liquids into their mouths to keep them from dying of thirst/going into a hunger coma while you're trying to extract whatever information you're needing from them.

[Incognito]

You call it kidnapping, I call it "surprise adoption" 

[Desertman]

Yeah, you are asking for something that already exists in at least two forms that I know of.

Find out IC is really the only response this should have.

[Incognito]

Yeah, you are asking for something that already exists in at least two forms that I know of.

Find out IC is really the only response this should have.

I know of atleast 5 methods to achieve this ICLY.

And yes, you need to find out ICLY.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Yeah, but since 3 or 4 go out the window when you remove karma classes from the mix, I say it's still an open niche.

Spam punching someone isn't a very good substitute because it kind of stiffles RP from the perspective of both being both OOCly boring/aggrivating for the playey, and ICLY severely brain damaging for the character. I remember reading a post where the poster was recalling a time him and some friends dragged someone into a room and started spam punching them. They knocked him out so many times the poor bastard had to use triggers to try and spam-plead with them to stop punching him everytime his eyes fluttered open. It was a cringeworthy read, to say the least.

"Find my mind" is okay, I guess. It's a lot better than it used to be. I KNOW I've died to this a few times back in the days of novice contact.

So what's left? Keep your victim constantly shit-faced?

There's just no way to go about this constructively IG currently. And the thing I specifically want, which none of these methods address, is the ability to play dead. Or for a raider type PC, be able to keep people from spam-contacting you before they head out salting, or when they seen you hooded.

#NerfLook2016

[Delirium]

A mundane poison that is a way-blocker would be fantastic. It simply cuts you off entirely from the Way.

It could have mildly unpleasant side effects, along the lines of being krath struck.

You wouldn't be able to "cure" it once you took it, you'd have to wait for it to wear off, so if you ended up needing to be able to use the Way, you'd be screwed.

[Yam]

A mundane poison that is a way-blocker would be fantastic. It simply cuts you off entirely from the Way.

It could have mildly unpleasant side effects, along the lines of being krath struck.

You wouldn't be able to "cure" it once you took it, you'd have to wait for it to wear off, so if you ended up needing to be able to use the Way, you'd be screwed.

Yes please.

[Jingo]

Something certainly should be added.

The only way to kidnap someone for 20+ years has been with magick. Full stop. I can't think of a successful abduction without it.

Binding with rope. An expansion of mundane way abilities that can lockdown another pc's mind. Etcetera.

[Armaddict]

I've got a log of kidnapping a southern noble to be delivered to the north.

Plenty of abductions have happened without magick.  Not to say that ideas should not continue, but just saying...that's very wrong.

[Beethoven]

OK, so the means exist, but it seems like a lot of long-time players had never encountered or even heard of them in all their time of playing. To me this means it's too obscure. Maybe whatever super secret methods exist shouldn't be so super secret.

[Armaddict]

It's not secret.  At all.

I think insinuating the need for a 100% effective way of not getting caught before you'll attempt something is poor form anyway.

[nauta]

It's not secret.  At all.

It kind of is if it isn't in the documentation.

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Poison

I can think of a few of those on that list that would be effective, though, but not in the form given to us by documentation.

(I'm definitely not advocating that the secret be spilled on the gdb, but as with a lot of the 'find out IC' things, I'd prefer either (a) documentation tell us where we can go to find out IC, e.g., House Dasari knows a lot about poisons or (b) in the documentation itself.)

[Jihelu]

House Dasari also doesn't exit anymore so lel

Kidnapping isn't something I see as very profitable anyway. Less you kidnap the Templars sex buddy I don't see it going well, and even then once they get them back they might just hunt you down to the ends of the world in an absurd fashion anyway.
Just kill them and send them the head.

[Delirium]

Kidnapping plots can work - and have worked - beautifully well. They're essentially impossible now. Which I think is a shame.

[Narf]

I think it's the ransoming aspect of the kidnapping that's the least workable. If you could come up with another reason to kidnap people it'd probably work better.

Forcing them to fight in your underground pit fights for their freedom sounds like more fun anyways.

[Erythil]

When people are saying 'this already exists, find out IC,' can I please point out that I've been playing this game for about a decade and I have found out IC about the means that exist to do this, and they are all tied to either karma roles or sponsored roles.  I'm talking about tools for the common man, not your mulish noble mindbender with a secret base warded against apparitions of psychically projected ankheg janitors.

[nauta]

your mulish noble mindbender with a secret base warded against apparitions of psychically projected ankheg janitors.

Now I just need to figure out how to sig that.

[Jihelu]

When people are saying 'this already exists, find out IC,' can I please point out that I've been playing this game for about a decade and I have found out IC about the means that exist to do this, and they are all tied to either karma roles or sponsored roles.  I'm talking about tools for the common man, not your mulish noble mindbender with a secret base warded against apparitions of psychically projected ankheg janitors.

Don't forget how they have master sap and mon (Redacted)

[hyzhenhok]

When run-of-the-mill criminal schemes need extraordinary magickal or inhuman support, you know there's a problem.

[valeria]

I'd like to see mundane ways to accomplish things like tying people up, blindfolding them, and gagging them.  Things that you should be able to do but just aren't coded in at present.  I'd rather see those before seeing any way-effective poisons.

[nauta]

I'd like to see mundane ways to accomplish things like tying people up, blindfolding them, and gagging them.  Things that you should be able to do but just aren't coded in at present.  I'd rather see those before seeing any way-effective poisons.

IDEA:

a simple blindfold: when worn on the face slot, you can't see.  (You can still remove it yourself, but I bet your captor isn't going to like that.)

a simple mouthgag: when worn on the face slot, you can't speak.  (Ditto about removing it.)

a simple wrist bind: when worn on the hands slot, you can't draw, hold, or wield.  (Ditto.)

a simple leg bind: when worn on the feet slot, you can't move. (Ditto.)

a small ball of dung: when worn on the face slot, you can't smell.  (Can't remove it.)

a simple wax earplug: when worn on the face slot, you can't hear.

[valeria]

Also if your hands are bound, hey, good luck removing that blindfold.

[manipura]

I'd like to see mundane ways to accomplish things like tying people up, blindfolding them, and gagging them.  Things that you should be able to do but just aren't coded in at present.  I'd rather see those before seeing any way-effective poisons.

These sorts of things would be nice.
I guess what sticks out in my mind though is the "aren't coded in" part.

Are there really that many people who don't play along with the RP when someone ties up/gags/blindfolds their PC, because 'codedly' they can make a Houdini-esque escape?
If so, that's lame.

[BadSkeelz]

In my experience, yes. Even for otherwise well-played characters, I think adrenaline and self-preservation overrides a desire to RP and respect the virtual world. The only way to ensure anyone really does anything is to lay the Code on them.

[manipura]

In my experience, yes. Even for otherwise well-played characters, I think adrenaline and self-preservation overrides a desire to RP and respect the virtual world. The only way to ensure anyone really does anything is to lay the Code on them.

Well that's unfortunate.

[Zenith]

I have never seen a kidnapping. But I've seen players follow along when ordered against their PCs will by nobles and templars.  Not everyone would run. Even when bad things happen.

[hyzhenhok]

Complaining about people not playing along with someone emoting that they've been tied up isn't really fair, because there was no opportunity for a coded contest. If your character is a bumbling idiot who emotes tying up my slick master thief elf who is covered in slippery sewage, of course I'm going to emote right back that I slipped out of my bindings. Or if I'm a mul, that I broke them with brute force. Until there's coded support, it's not fair to decide what other players can and cannot do in response to your emotes. As with all non-coded stuff, it's only fair for you to emote what your character attempted, and to leave it up to the other player to decide what happens next.

So let's make it coded. Make the kidnapping suite of tools part of the "subdue" skill. You use your subdue skill when you bind someone's arms or legs. That person can try to break their bonds by sheer struggle by using the >flee command, just like if they were subdued. However, this would be broadcast to everyone in the room, so your captor would know you were trying it. This would be a strength + agility + flee check against the binder's subdue skill. You'd stack the odds such that even someone with high stats and master flee would struggle against a master subduer's bindings. Then, also allow covert attacks on bindings via the sleight of hand skill, so characters who should be slippery can actually be so. If you wanted to go crazy, you could include the quality level of various types of bonds: cheap ropes < strong ropes < templar-owned iron shackles for VIP prisoners.

I think that's the very least amount of implementation I would want if this were implemented at all. The basic point is that if tying someone up is going to be a coded thing, there should be coded ways to defeat it. (Disclaimer: this is a hypothetical specific example of just one of many ways one could implement the general idea. Please no quibble over ideas like "zomg don't tie it to subdue, that would make maxing subdue way too easy for twinks.)

[lostinspace]

I've seen an abduction, as others have stated, it's the ransom that is the hard part.

[BadSkeelz]

Complaining about people not playing along with someone emoting that they've been tied up isn't really fair, because there was no opportunity for a coded contest. If your character is a bumbling idiot who emotes tying up my slick master thief elf who is covered in slippery sewage, of course I'm going to emote right back that I slipped out of my bindings. Or if I'm a mul, that I broke them with brute force. Until there's coded support, it's not fair to decide what other players can and cannot do in response to your emotes. As with all non-coded stuff, it's only fair for you to emote what your character attempted, and to leave it up to the other player to decide what happens next.

That's a likely theory, hyzhenhok. It's why I'd like to see subduing ropes and blindfolds, since (in my personal experience) about 60% of players will do what it takes to keep their PCs alive if faced with no coded opposition to their actions. This includes things like not walking in to the lockable room, giants having flashes of suspicion, etc.

I agree with the rest as well. If you're making a Coded Aggressive action, there need to be Coded Defensive measures as well.

I've seen an abduction, as others have stated, it's the ransom that is the hard part.

I've magickal abductions, and I guess I did a few mundane ones too. I don't see what's so hard about the ransoming part, though. "Leave the large on the midden heap by West Dragon's tonight, and your boy will be free come dawn."

If you need someone to convey the message, that's what expendable newbies are for.

[Desertman]

I put a man down and continued to knock him out as he would wake up so that I could peepee in his hair and leave him with no pants in the desert.

I knocked him out and drug him off to do this.

Technically, I kidnapped him I guess.....for my peepee needs.

[QuillDipper]

Man your mudsex is weird.

It'll be even weirder with blindfolds

[lostinspace]

I've magickal abductions, and I guess I did a few mundane ones too. I don't see what's so hard about the ransoming part, though. "Leave the large on the midden heap by West Dragon's tonight, and your boy will be free come dawn."

If you need someone to convey the message, that's what expendable newbies are for.

Well, you'll have to wrap up loose ends, but I suppose this would work.

[Fathi]

There are creative workarounds for this, but the main issue I have with most of them is that they make being kidnapped not so fun for the victim. I think that's where most people's objections to the "just KO them" or "just keep them in a pitch black room" or "do <this other more IC thing>" or "use magick" ideas comes up. If I'm gonna put the effort into kidnapping another PC, I don't want to force them into a situation that limits their ability to RP. And I want plots like that to be accessible to any guild, provided you've got motivation and elbow grease.

So, nth-ing my support for this idea. Based on the way certain other things function ingame I think a more common solution to this problem could even be done with existing code.

[BadSkeelz]

If someone's annoyed my PC to the point where kidnapping them is on the table, I would just as soon kill them. Codedly easier and more effective.

[Fathi]

If someone's annoyed my PC to the point where kidnapping them is on the table, I would just as soon kill them. Codedly easier and more effective.

Yeah well it's also well known you're ALLERGIC TO FUN.

[BadSkeelz]

I am the antihistamine Armageddon deserves.

[Jingo]

I'm generally annoyed when players can't come up with some even remote alternative to murder in this game.

I sucks the intrigue right out when your solution to a problem always seems to kill other party.

[AdamBlue]

Hey, so, remember that poison that causes you to see shit all wild?

A fragile, weak-boned woman ways you, "HELP, HELP, I'M BEING KIDNAPPED BY TEKTOLNES."

[whitt]

I'm generally annoyed when players can't come up with some even remote alternative to murder in this game.

I sucks the intrigue right out when your solution to a problem always seems to kill other party.

After a couple of rounds of taking the road less travelled, letting the opposition live on and plot their revenge, only to learn the hard way that the opponent's revenge comes in a means permanent and deadly... the shine probably comes off the apple. 

Murder is cheap, quick, and permanent.  Murder solves the lack of anonymity between perpetrator and victim.  Murder is the best alternative from the standpoint of promoting your own survival.

Intrigue requires a lack of ability to simply murder your opponent, though in Zalanthas I would suggest that if the death of your opponent is not the end game of your intrigue, all your intrigues likely amount to is that you are setting yourself up to be killed by someone who can pull that lever.  And will.  As soon as your a big enough nuisance.

Intrigue therefore becomes the weapon of the powerful to be used against the weak.  You know who can kidnap someone?  Right off the streets?  The same ones that can kill them without repercussion.  Seen it happen.  Seen the folks that helped said kidnappers get dead within weeks.  Imagine the way between the Arm Corporal and the kidnap victim that goes...

Amos - I can't stay in your head long, but I've been kidnapped by Lady Fancypants and her press gang.

Corporal puts up barrier.

Intrigue in Zalanthas is a cat playing with its prey before it finally chomps down and puts the little victim down.

Going in the other direction can be loads of fun.  But you'd have to go in with open eyes that the end result?  Is the one perpetrating the intrigue is going to die horribly eventually.

PS - And that's Ok.

[Jingo]

Yeah. I just don't happen to think that's a good standard. It cripples the range and potential of stories.

But who the fuck cares about that when you can just win harder by murdering.

[Jihelu]

Yeah. I just don't happen to think that's a good standard. It cripples the range and potential of stories.

But who the fuck cares about that when you can just win harder by murdering.

All I do is win win win no matter what.
Kidnapping ain't on my mind and I never gave a fuck.
All I do is kill kill kill (I lost creativity right about here)


Kidnapping has a risk and reward.
The risk is being caught.
The reward is money and whatever is on the person.
So it's like killing someone but you keep them alive, though if people find out it may socially kill them as well.

[Armaddict]

I'm generally annoyed when players can't come up with some even remote alternative to murder in this game.

I sucks the intrigue right out when your solution to a problem always seems to kill other party.

I think you'd be surprised how often people do have the opportunity to kill someone who is an enemy, or someone they think is an enemy...and they don't.  I'm one of those players who has 0 qualms with killing your character.  0.  If you make my character afraid that things are going to come around and smack them in the face, life is cheap in Zalanthas, and that includes yours.  Death has been a part of most character's lives for the majority of it.

Intrigue is not an agreement between players to draw out a plot.  Intrigue is the result of two people who have a healthy respect (i.e. fear) for each other, and they are playing games to create opportunities of removal of said person, either via death or some other crippling means that lowers their threat level.  There are many PC's who never hit that level that intrigue is necessary.  There are others that -start- in a position where you can't just go at them.

However, breaking this down into a 'well, you killed my character.  You just cut intrigue out of the game' is a very narrow view of what plots are and how they evolve in the desert crisis that is Armageddon.  Generally speaking, if you keep your head down and avoid turning altercations into larger ones, even your enemies, generally, give a pass.  I've been privy to a lot of PC reluctance to kill.  I often play the 'trigger man'.  And seeing the things that make the slow nod of agreement that someone has to die is generally something where an escalation is occurring and it needs to be dealt with before the intrigue necessary is more than what can be gathered.

Think of intrigue in terms of CKII, if you've ever played it.  If someone is getting too powerful, and is an enemy of yours, you start worrying whether or not your plot power will be enough to prevent them from spymastering the shit out of you, instead.

And that is my spiel.  The insinuation that murder is bad in this game is a bad one; it has a very real place in how characters interact.  If you're getting murdered often, that probably means your characters are going out of their way to make enemies who don't have the time to have enemies, or don't have the time to have enemies getting up in their shit.

[Jingo]

I'm generally annoyed when players can't come up with some even remote alternative to murder in this game.

I sucks the intrigue right out when your solution to a problem always seems to kill other party.

Intrigue is not an agreement between players to draw out a plot.  Intrigue is the result of two people who have a healthy respect (i.e. fear) for each other, and they are playing games to create opportunities of removal of said person, either via death or some other crippling means that lowers their threat level.  There are many PC's who never hit that level that intrigue is necessary.  There are others that -start- in a position where you can't just go at them.

No. What your describing isn't intrigue, it's more like whack-a-mole.

In your conception, there is zero allowance for players to play anything remotely subversive unless they play a top echelon leadership role. Those beneath that fall out of line get whacked. Those that don't inevitably fall into a bizarro happy-go-lucky sacharine realm of smiley happy faces and mudsex. Granted, the facade drops when they have to sociopathic-ly backroom murder someone. But when it pops back up they're still just as boring to play with.

And yeah. Intrigue in this game does require an understanding from player to player that you'll at least try to make your interactions interesting in a meaningful way. Even if that understanding is unspoken. It requires trust from player to player that you won't jump the gun at the slightest provocation.

However, breaking this down into a 'well, you killed my character.  You just cut intrigue out of the game' is a very narrow view of what plots are and how they evolve in the desert crisis that is Armageddon.  Generally speaking, if you keep your head down and avoid turning altercations into larger ones, even your enemies, generally, give a pass.  I've been privy to a lot of PC reluctance to kill.  I often play the 'trigger man'.  And seeing the things that make the slow nod of agreement that someone has to die is generally something where an escalation is occurring and it needs to be dealt with before the intrigue necessary is more than what can be gathered.

Recent experience has taught me that this isn't remotely true. Players will kill you just because they can without consequence. They will MAKE UP reasons to fuck over your pc because they CAN and because the THINK you're a threat. And really, when you're a leader that's all the excuse you need.

Think of intrigue in terms of CKII, if you've ever played it.  If someone is getting too powerful, and is an enemy of yours, you start worrying whether or not your plot power will be enough to prevent them from spymastering the shit out of you, instead.

It's funny how you bring up CKII. Did you ever notice how that number beneath someone's portrait would turn red if it became known that you're a murderer? That doesn't happen in Armageddon. There is no meaningful consequence when a leader dumps on an employee in armageddon. No chill in morale, no questions from their superiors, no friends or family asking about the disappearance, nothing.

Have you also noticed that you can't pull the rug out from one of your vassals without consequence anyways? You become a tyrant if you steal your vassal's claims. There is no consequence to stripping someone naked and tossing them in prison in Armageddon however.

And that is my spiel.  The insinuation that murder is bad in this game is a bad one; it has a very real place in how characters interact.  If you're getting murdered often, that probably means your characters are going out of their way to make enemies who don't have the time to have enemies, or don't have the time to have enemies getting up in their shit

I've never said murder was bad for the game. Some of my favorite plays have been made by assassins assasinating. My 'insinuation' is that over proliferation of murder as a tool to solve problems results in a stagnant game.

There's murder. But have you ever noticed that there is no corruption? The corrupt get murdered.

[Armaddict]

No. What your describing isn't intrigue, it's more like whack-a-mole.

noun
ˈinˌtrēɡ,inˈtrēɡ/
1.
the secret planning of something illicit or detrimental to someone.

Intrigue is another weapon in an arsenal.  If you're going to make enemies to engage in intrigue, you need to be expecting that intrigue to be building towards an end point.  Intrigue is not a non-aggression pact between players.

What I'm describing is not whack-a-mole.  Neither is it restricted to upper echelons.  I have 'rinthers who have to engage in intrigue.  I have 'rinthers who require intrigue to get the best of.  I have mercenaries who engage in intrigue.  I have mercenaries who require intrigue to get the best of.  Intrigue is what happens when two adversaries require manipulation and maneuvering to get at each other.  It is not some cheap excuse for storytelling, particularly not in a game that demands as close to realistic behavior as possible from you;  you use it when necessary, you keep your defense against it active, and you know that you have an arch nemesis when they are matching your moves with their moves, and neither of you can get the other into a position where a move can be made without the detrimental side effects that you require intrigue to bypass.

The way you make it sound, people use intrigue to avoid just crushing people under their boots all the time.  I counter that people who can crushed under boots generally are, the moment that they make themselves a thorn in the side of someone with a higher degree of social and political currency than them.  One of the fundamental rules of survival of Armageddon is learning the upsides and downsides of everyone who you decide to be useful to, and who you decide (or are dragged into deciding) should be an enemy.

Intrigue in this game does require an understanding from player to player that you'll at least try to make your interactions interesting in a meaningful way.

Again, intrigue is not a non-aggression pact.  It's just the elevation from brute force to finesse and politics.  The end goal remains the same, which is removal or subjugation of a current or potential problem to your character or their goals.  Intrigue just for the hell of it is neither a strong contribution nor particularly interesting to take part in.

Recent experience has taught me that this isn't remotely true. Players will kill you just because they can without consequence. They will MAKE UP reasons to fuck over your pc because they CAN and because the THINK you're a threat. And really, when you're a leader that's all the excuse you need.

Just because someone decides to kill you doesn't make it a dominating mindset.  I'm sorry you're bitter over recent experience, but if you take a look at the profile of player versus player activity as a whole, as well as discussions on the topic, there's been a pretty momentous shift over the course of time.  It's one that I'm somewhat at odds with, because I don't think it adds as much to the game as is asserted, as much as it just lets individuals progress through their own plots more.  However, again...playing as someone who is almost never a leader, but usually a dependable to those he's associated with, I've had many situations where solutions are being discussed and an easy removal is seldom one of them until it hits a level that someone is purposely escalating a situation or purposely ignoring a negotiated de-escalation.

I don't think anyone wanders through this game looking at every person they're remotely at odds with and thinking constantly "I'll kill them if I get the chance."  If there are, then they're a rarity.

Did you ever notice how that number beneath someone's portrait would turn red if it became known that you're a murderer? That doesn't happen in Armageddon. There is no meaningful consequence when a leader dumps on an employee in armageddon. No chill in morale, no questions from their superiors, no friends or family asking about the disappearance, nothing.

Have you also noticed that you can't pull the rug out from one of your vassals without consequence anyways? You become a tyrant if you steal your vassal's claims. There is no consequence to stripping someone naked and tossing them in prison in Armageddon however.

I think you're trying a little too hard with the analogy.  I spoke of plot power and you've now equivocated the entire political system of feudal europe and the dominant ethics and relationships of the time to Zalanthas; there is a giant pile of bodies and a torture device on the main thoroughfare of Allanak.  There is an execution device down the road.  There are the equivalent of sheriffs who point fingers and people die, for whatever arbitrary reason they want.  These -do- indeed make negatives on those numbers under their names, but only to some people.  For others, it makes them quite green.  There is a social and political currency involved in intrigue, as mentioned above, where expenditures and incomes are very dynamic;  If someone went around just killing everyone they wanted, I agree that their number would be quite red, but as I said, there just aren't that many people who run around trying to rack up red numbers.

I've never said murder was bad for the game. Some of my favorite plays have been made by assassins assasinating. My 'insinuation' is that over proliferation of murder as a tool to solve problems results in a stagnant game.

There's murder. But have you ever noticed that there is no corruption? The corrupt get murdered.

I agree, you did not.  But you do seem to have a thing where you equivocate plots with not killing.  Murder in this game, executions, assassinations...they all proliferate other plots, they just...end others.  Avoiding it can result in just as much stagnation, as everyone settles into their happy little niches and agrees to get along with each other.  To use Littlefinger from Game of Thrones...chaos is a ladder.  Sometimes, deaths open up niches that result in scrambles between nearby parties to fill it.  Sometimes, it furthers the safety of a group so that they can make a move that they were worried about before.  But professing to the playerbase that we're all killing too much (which is what your original statement -inferred-, at least to me), when I have seen a very real improvement in how killing other pc's has been handled and treated by the population of the game, is doing a disservice to the maintenance of the ideal of Zalanthas.  Life is hard. You have to fight for it.  You have to claw through it.  You have to struggle.  And there will be paths crossed with other people that can result in allies and enemies.   React to them realistically, and you have a rich role-playing atmosphere fraught with danger and excitement.  Try to fabricate some false sense of consideration for how your actions affect people, beyond whether or not it's real for the character, and the game suffers.

This is not me saying everyone go kill more, though that is how it sounds.  Moreso, just reminding people that small jabs at the idea of bathing in the blood of your enemies make the appearance that the community is not in support of said actions, when it should be known that as long as you hold true to character, the plots will thrive, and in making that character true to Zalanthas, the game will thrive.


As far as the original topic, it should also be noted that I'm not particularly against any of the ideas.  My contrariness here comes from the disagreement that kidnapping is impossible; I think that's clinging a little too hard to the idea that every crime you commit and every altercation needs to be perfectly performed.  Kidnappers, raiders, criminals...there is always a very strong push for anonymity or it's not worth doing.  Anonymity certainly makes it prolific, but you can play that subversive well and good while being known as a subversive.  As a matter of fact, if you're doing well at it and engaging well...the intrigue involved should be very strong...unless magick-seal teams are sent.

[Jingo]

Gotta win win win win win.

[Hauwke]

I have some very small experience with kidnapping, eg was knocked out and dragged somewhere.

Yeah it wasnt very fun oocly, becuase of the whole no interaction thing, but at the same time I think bashing a fool over the head and dragging them around, in a way that disguises the fact they arent themselves walking makes sense. Eg helping your passed out drinking buddy.

Thats just my opinion, sure it might look suspicious from an ooc standpoint but icly, wouldnt there be tons of drunken fucks passed out being helped home at stupid oclock in the morning?

[Armaddict]

Gotta win win win win win.

...yes.  All of that was really just me disagreeing with you in such a way to deceive everyone so I could keep on winning.  You've uncovered my nefarious plot to harvest your text-soul as many times as I can until I can morph into Tektolnes and wrest control of the game so I can kick you guys out of it, and become king of the mountain.

Are you for real?

[Jingo]

Well. Yeah. It comes from an ooc need to dominate other players.

If I didn't know better, it would be the entire point of this mud.

[Erythil]

Yall gettin mad.  I just want a viable way to keep someone prisoner in my secret base for like 4 hours.

[LauraMars]

I just want a viable way to keep someone prisoner in my secret base for like 4 hours.

Yep, let's keep it on topic.

[Norcal]

Yall gettin mad.  I just want a viable way to keep someone prisoner in my secret base for like 4 hours.

If your secret base has a lockable door, then that helps some at least. 

There are ways to RP a kidnapping scenario, yet they are just that; RP.  Both players would have to want to give it a go and the victim would have to be mature enough to avoid using the code to simply get up and run away.   I don't like the idea of keeping someone out cold for hours on end. It does not give them the chance to play and they end up just being a prop. Not cool.

[Lizzie]

Once, I played a character who got kidnapped via magickal means. I (the player) knew exactly where my character was, and how she could get out of there, more or less (she would've gotten lost a lot because the way in and out is kind of like a big huge maze). But my character had no idea where she was, nor did she know that there was an escape route. It was dark and scary there, and she was stuck there for a couple of RL days, occasionally in the presence of her kidnapper, who would not allow her to see him.

I had ZERO problem remaining kidnapped for the entire time she was kidnapped, and eventually he released her. Of course he killed her not long after the kidnapping but that's because she did things that made him think she was an actual threat to him in subsequent days. Her actions led to her death. It was a pretty awesome death too, even though it happened pretty quick.

Part of the "issue" with kidnapping is that the kidnapped PC should only know what makes sense for them to know, even if the player knows more. If your character was stolen away to a place he's never been, and doesn't recognize the area, and he's told "there are guards outside who will murderdeathkill if you so much as TRY to open that door" then you need to react appropriately to that.  Think of hostage situations - it's certainly possible for a hostage to TRY to make a run for it. But it is also certainly possible that he will fail, lethally. On the other hand, a guy with a pistol isn't going to be capable of killing 20 hostages who all gang-rush him for the door all at the same time. He doesn't have enough bullets for one, and 20 moving targets is harder to hit than 6 targets just sitting there cowering in their boots. As a hostage, do you want to take a chance that you'll be the recipient of that successful shot? If you're one of 20? If you're the ONLY one there? Especially if you can't see your kidnapper and can hear his voice once in awhile reminding you that he's always watching?

Fear is what created the city-states in the first place. Why is YOUR character any more immune to fear than the leagues of men and women who allowed their oppressors to gain power in the first place?

So my suggestion is to the kidnapped. Allow your character to BE kidnapped. I mean unless it's a really ridiculously bungled attempt (like someone with no weapon poking a brown tuber in your ribcage in the middle of a noble party with 3 templars and 40 soldiers present, saying "let me pass or the half-breed gets it") - in which case react to THAT appropriately too and let him try and bludgeon you to death with his brown tuber.

[Desertman]

someone with no weapon poking a brown tuber in your ribcage in the middle of a noble party with 3 templars and 40 soldiers present, saying "let me pass or the half-breed gets it") - in which case react to THAT appropriately too and let him try and bludgeon you to death with his brown tuber.

10/10 would kudos

(Also, there is a gif I've seen before of a gal getting a giant brown dong smacked against her face that I would post here if I were allowed. Since I'm not allowed, just imagine that for me.)

[Jihelu]

someone with no weapon poking a brown tuber in your ribcage in the middle of a noble party with 3 templars and 40 soldiers present, saying "let me pass or the half-breed gets it") - in which case react to THAT appropriately too and let him try and bludgeon you to death with his brown tuber.

10/10 would kudos

(Also, there is a gif I've seen before of a gal getting a giant brown dong smacked against her face that I would post here if I were allowed. Since I'm not allowed, just imagine that for me.)

Find the gif of the girl being hit in the face with hot dogs, about the same thing.

But yeah rp is good btw.

[Classclown]

Can't you just get someone drunk to keep them from waying? A few shots of Oash spirits and they'll just be waying a wavy face.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

There was a story in the submissions about a girl who was held in prison and driven nearly mad by confinement for a month. Pretty good stuff.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

There was a story in the submissions about a girl who was held in prison and driven nearly mad by confinement for a month. Pretty good stuff.

Conversely, this was done by an organization that had the means to buy/rent a building to keep her in within the city, and not a rogue or evil tribal or elf.