Stolen information / A lengthy explanation long past due

[SleeplessinZalanthanas]

Hi!  So I've been away from Armageddon for a long, long time.  Maybe 13 years or so, give or take a few, as things get a bit murky from when I stopped being active and when I stopped altogether.  Like many good things it was difficult for me to walk away until it was long past due.  Then this past weekend we rescued a puppy from a local shelter, and after a couple of sleepless nights (in Iowa, not Zalanthas, or Zalanthanas as my sleep deprived brain mistyped) I was up at approximately 1:30am taking puppy out to potty and I thought of this game.  I wondered if it was still going and if I would see any familiar faces.  So what the heck?  I checked and 'lo and behold it was still running!  Cool beans.

What was even cooler was that my old account (on the forum at least) was still active!  Neat!  But it seems that the Legends user group has restricted access that leaves me unable to post, read or send private messages, or really do anything except read access.  That was a bummer but, given my time away and my current time constraints, no big deal.  It is fun to reminisce, to see current discussions that have been rehashed for decades.  Banking problems?  Lack of players?  Half-giants that are both game-breaking and necessary to the game and how to handle them?  Ah, I remember many a late night discussing those topics.

But I digress...  As I was reading through discussions I came across Ness's open letter to the playerbase detailing the information that was stolen from Arm's private servers.  He mentioned that the information had been posted on non-sanctioned boards and sites.  So, naturally, I went to see what had been leaked.  That took me to a site that appears to be run by a bunch of malcontents.  I don't use that word in a pejorative sense, merely that they appear to have a gripe with how the Staff runs these forums and, quite possibly, the game.  Benny for them.  While I do think their appearance of obsessing over certain staff members is quite silly, and if they are really that disgruntled then they should really just walk away, at the same time they are free to obsess and feel slighted by whomever they want.  I just don't want to live my life as someone that sits on the sidelines and constantly picks nits and complains.  Sounds terrible to me.

Ugh, I digressed again.  Sorry.

Anyhow.  I went to their board and read a thread about the leak.  And the more I read the sadder I got.  A bit mad, but mostly sad.  Because they brought up the, "great 1999 codebase hack" or whatever it is referred to as, and mentioned that the person responsible for that also leaked the most recent information theft.

And that saddens me because I know the person.  Personally.  I lived with him for a year.  He was a friend of mine.  But I'll get to that in a moment because, quite frankly, I'm currently chuckling in amusement over the reaction at their forum when I posted a response on their thread.  I wish I had copy and pasted it but, alas, I didn't.  Here is my best recollection of what I posted on their forum:

Sorry for being late to the party, but I can shed some light on the 1999 codebase hack/theft.  If Barta (editor's note: a user named Barta was listed in the thread as the person responsible) was indeed the one that released the 1999 code base, then his name is <name>.  He was not, as has been stated in this thread, given the password and account of a former staff member that was disgruntled.

In 1997 <name> and a staff member were roommates and good friends.  The lived together for approximately a year, and in 1998 the staff member moved out, got engaged, and married a couple of years later.  Before the staff member moved out <name> used the staff member's computer to download the complete game files and other information.  Probably the staff member's account information as well (security in the late 90s was not terribly good).  This was done without the staff member's knowledge nor consent.  At some point in 1999 (or thereabouts), for reasons known only to <name>, he decided to release what he had stolen.

Over the past decade plus <name> has attempted to apologize to the staff member, begging forgiveness.  And the staff member had been considering it.  If what has been posted is true, that <name> released the most recent information (since I know that he released the earlier information), then it strikes me as disingenuous that he's sorry and wants forgiveness.  One does not apologize and ask for forgiveness then go out and do the same thing again.

Now, I know that there are people on these forums that are upset at current and past staff members.  Whether it is because you did something wrong and were caught, or because you did something that was misunderstood, or maybe because the staff member was a dick.  I can state that in my time with the game I really cared about it, and the staff over the years has kept that constant; a love of the game.  Now, maybe their ideas of the game should be run, or what constitutes good administration differs from your view.  That's fine.  But if you don't like how things are done, or if you are that upset at someone in a game that has done something to you, just walk away from it.  Good lord.  At the end of the day you can do what you want, but I'd hope that people would just stop being dipshits.

Again, the above quote is not exact, but it is the sentiment that I posted on their forum.

A few hours later the post was deleted and my account was banned.  Huh.  That makes me chuckle.  A forum created by people upset at the, "tyranny" of the GDB and upset at being persecuted and mistreated by the staff feels justified at deleting my post and banning me because what, my information does not fit their narrative?  That everything that has been released wasn't because a someone with access to it decided they were fed up and wanted to go public with it, but because a staff member with access to it trusted his friend and roommate who stole that information from him?

Put the whole thing in a different light.  I guess they didn't like that.

Anyhow (is that 3 anyhows now?  I should count... Nope, only 2!), to shed more information on the sordid story, after the release of the information back in '99 <name> vehemently denied that he was the leaker.  And foolish as the staffer was (does anyone that is still reading really not know that the staffer was me?  I didn't think so), I believed him and defended him in private conversations with the rest of the staff.  Even when the evidence seemed pretty overwhelming that he was the one behind it.

It wasn't until years later that he admitted it to me, and explained to me how he had gotten that material off of my personal computer while we were roommates.  And he asked my forgiveness which I withheld.  

I failed to pass this information on.  The damage was done years prior and I was already inactive.  I did not see the need.  Not until I saw the post on the malcontent's board boasting that the original leaker had leaked again, and they were setting him up as some type of folk hero.  He had been given a former staffer's account!  That staffer consented to the dissemination of the private information for the good of all!  Hallelujah and pass the ammunition!

But it was a lie.  And given that just 3 months ago <name> had reached out to me, again, to ask my forgiveness.  And the really shitty part (of this entire turd sandwich) is that I miss my friend.  And a month later he does this again.  I can forgive quite easily stealing stuff from me.  That was nearly 20 years ago and I'm in a much, much better place now.  Water under the bridge.  But what is difficult for me is to use that information to attack and attempt to tear down the game system that I loved, and still love.  To attack the people that built it, that sustain it, that do all of it out of a love for the game.  Are they all perfect?  No.  Staff make mistakes.  Heck, some staff members are complete assholes.  We had a few back then and I'd be willing to bet there are a few now as well.  But you know what?  Life is full of them.  Learn to deal with it.  And if you can't deal with it just walk away.  It's a game.  A game.  Games are meant to be fun, both for the people playing it as well as the people administrating it.  And when it stops being fun, stop playing it.  Just walk away.  Don't try to tear it down because it isn't fun for you anymore, or you feel someone did something to you that wasn't kosher.  That is something that I have a hard time with.

When I learned the truth I was beyond livid.  I felt betrayed, I felt embarrassed, I felt used.  Those are awful things to feel and I recommend to everyone not to do this to another person.  It isn't pleasant.  At this time I was already on my way out of the game.  I was not active anymore because I living my life with my family.  I had other priorities.  While this revelation did not push me over the edge to leaving, it certainly was a factor.  Even today I feel awkward about having anything to do with the game given how, ultimately, I'm the reason for all of this.

And there it is.  My fault.  I trusted <name>, he let me down, and because of that the game now has information put out there that was never meant to be released.

For that, you have my apology.  Players, staff members past, current and future.  I'm sorry.

~ The Desert Wanderer

[SuchDragonWow]

It's pretty hilarious that your post got deleted over there.  Thanks for that laugh.

I'm sure Ginka forgives you.

[Lizzie]

It just basically confirms my suspicions that the worst offenders over there truly are the worst offenders. Banned, walked out, rage-quit, whatever the reason for their absence in Arm and on the GDB: Good riddance to bad rubbish and don't let the train door hit'em as they sally forth to the third rail.

For what it's worth Sleepless, the only thing to forgive is that you haven't started playing again yet

[Majikal]

For what it's worth Sleepless, the only thing to forgive is that you haven't started playing again yet

[Morrolan]

For what it's worth Sleepless, the only thing to forgive is that you haven't started playing again yet

Or posted a pic of the puppy!

[SuchDragonWow]

For what it's worth Sleepless, the only thing to forgive is that you haven't started playing again yet

Or posted a pic of the puppy!

Yeah, that's true.  Puppies are adorable.

[RogueGunslinger]

Oh the sweet sweet irony of them banning you and deleting your post.

[LauraMars]

wow

such exposition

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

This is like saying you're sorry because a drunk smashed his car into your parked car, like you feel bad your car was in the way to begin with.

Play with us once the game is back up yes?

[Incognito]

Water. Under. The. Bridge.

<These aren't the droids you're looking for/>

[Yam]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkST5-ZFHw

[seidhr]

Sleepless -
Hey I just wanted to mention that I got your e-mail and have forwarded it along to the producers.  Nessalin is going to reply to you but he's been pretty consumed trying to bring the game back up - we're having some server issues (completely unrelated).

Also - hi - I've also met you IRL, perhaps we'll catch up soon.  ;-)

[evilcabbage]

i find this whole situation funny to observe.

sleepless comes here, posts his story, explains the situation.

in the minds of the uneducated, non-indoctrinated masses, sleepless deleted his "own" post.

of course it will be said that yes indeed, he deleted it all on his own and certainly there is no way that they would attempt to silence someone who posts -actual facts- over there.

nahh.

better to say he deleted it.


some people deserve forgiveness. some people forgive easily.

but the cabbages do not forgive. we do not forget.

we are watching.



sorry you got fucked by a friend.

[SleeplessinZalanthanas]

Sleepless -
Hey I just wanted to mention that I got your e-mail and have forwarded it along to the producers.  Nessalin is going to reply to you but he's been pretty consumed trying to bring the game back up - we're having some server issues (completely unrelated).

Also - hi - I've also met you IRL, perhaps we'll catch up soon.  ;-)

I appreciate that.  Though, honestly, it is no big deal.  I mentioned the account stuff just as back story.  I understand you all are busy, and right now things are chaotic with the server issue (I remember those days... whew, do I remember those days...).  I'm good and can wait.  I appreciate the reply though. 

And we've met?  Cool!  We'll definitely have to catch up when things settle down.

And, since people requested...

This is the monster that has been keeping me sleepless:



And sleeping next to his big sister:

[valeria]

OMG PUPPIES <3

[RogueGunslinger]

"His post got deleted and he was banned for doxxing." - Jcarter

[evilcabbage]

<name> isn't barka's real name.

[BadSkeelz]

OMG PUPPIES <3

[Beethoven]

It's interesting to hear this story, thanks. You don't have to feel bad about what happened.

But...

I know it's just a first name, and some people might say he was "asking for it" because of what he did, but it doesn't really sit right with me that we're using RL names that other people didn't reveal themselves. I mean, two wrongs don't make a right, you know?

[evilcabbage]

<name> isn't barka's real name.

for beethoven

[Beethoven]

Oh, okay, I didn't see that.  Then I withdraw what I said; it's cool.

[Nergal]

In the interest of erring on the side of caution I decided to redact what could possibly be barka's IRL first name from the thread. I left the original post otherwise intact. Although a first name is not much, we're a relatively small community and any bit of identifying information can be enough to expose someone (or even mis-identify someone as barka) without their consent.

[MeTekillot]

They banned me for using the word 'kike' to illustrate how one may be offended by their flagrant use of the word 'faggot' to describe disliked Armageddon staff members.

[Nergal]

As far as the sentiment of your post, I doubt anyone rational would blame you for what happened. Unfortunately not everyone qualifies as rational, which is kind of the reason why all this hullabaloo has happened in the first place.

Thank you for sharing.

[Dan]

I would rather have hydraulic fluid injected into my hands than type anything on that forum. It goes against so much of what this game is supposed to represent. The mystery, the secrets, the not knowing exactly why x does y until you see it first hand and everything is brought to light because of your own efforts.

Their need to have it all laid bare without any of their own effort is indicative of the purest form of laziness and entitlement. The scum of the earth.

[SleeplessinZalanthanas]

I know it's just a first name, and some people might say he was "asking for it" because of what he did, but it doesn't really sit right with me that we're using RL names that other people didn't reveal themselves. I mean, two wrongs don't make a right, you know?

In my opinion, it's ok.  I'm on a first name basis with him. 

Maybe things have changed (I sure they have) in the years since I was here last, but a first name on a forum?  Good lord.  I suppose I could have used his old iscaBBS handle, "Giggles."  Show of hands, how many remember iscaBBS?

I'd list off characters he used to play but, frankly, I don't remember them.  I have a hard enough time remembering my old characters (though, I do have a fondness for the Blackwing elf I ran, go figure.  He'd probably be about eleventy-billion years old by now).

To me, I'd think his first name would be much less of an identifier than any of his online handles.  Which is why I used it.  If he's still around and causing trouble then he'll read my comments.  If I am wrong (and I'm not, btw), then he's disappeared from the community long ago and no harm no foul.

Finally...

<name> isn't barka's real name.

Whether "barta" is him or one of his new buddies isn't really relevant.  Internet names change like the wind; Lord knows I've had my fair share over the years, though I've lately tended to gravitate towards a select few that I'm known by.

It makes no difference to me if the barta character was given the info from my roommate after he took it from me (ie., they are different people), or whether they are one and the same, it makes no difference in the end to me.  What matters is where the information originated.  It was not freely obtained which was the point of the prattle on that forum, and that is what I took umbrage at.  I can steal a car and give it to someone on the street.  It is freely given, sure.  But it is still stolen goods.

[Iiyola]

"His post got deleted and he was banned for doxxing." - Jcarter

The hell does doxxing mean?

[Qzzrbl]

"His post got deleted and he was banned for doxxing." - Jcarter

The hell does doxxing mean?

It's when someone gives information on another person online.

Like if I were to find out your real name or phone number or something and let everyone here know.

[Lizzie]

Just FYI for you DW: I think you're misreading what you were reading. It was barka with a k, not barta with a t. There is no barta with a t anywhere in any of either of the fora.

[RogueGunslinger]

Basically. Giving out someones first name is not Doxxing. You have to be giving out personal information for the specific purpose of letting others do bad things with it for it or doing bad things with it yourself. In this context it's hilarious considering the topic that started it. Which is that staff members had information that could actually affect them released. Jcarter is cogent enough to realize THAT isn't doxxing(though it was a fuck of a lot closer.) But suddenly this is? You don't get it both ways.

[BrokenRomance]

Part of me wants to go check said place out, but another part of me is extremely sure within fifteen minutes I'd be banned.

That's a pretty bad twist of the dagger in an old wound though. Does said person not realise the Murder, Corruption, Betrayal thing is about the game, not the friendships you make off of it?

I'd sure as blazes not even dignify him with a [REDACTED] you, much less forgiveness.

Hope to see you amongst us again soon. Stay strong, friend.

[Vositus]

If you are the Legend that has been online for the past couple of days with 0 posts, welcome back! You left shortly before I joined, but I only heard epic things.

Sorry your first post back had to be this one.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm a bit confused as to how you're sure the person who did the release is your roommate. Mind clarifying?

[SleeplessinZalanthanas]

I'm a bit confused as to how you're sure the person who did the release is your roommate. Mind clarifying?

Was, not is.

The first release (~ 1999) I am certain because not only did he pop up as one of the head admins of the rival mud (that used the stolen Arm code base, though he denied he had anything to do with it other than "he was asked to be an admin"), but as I mentioned, a few years after the release he confessed to me about stealing the files from my computer.  And he's spent the past decade plus asking me to forgive him.  From facebook IMs, to e-mails, to asking my wife to talk with me (funny enough, I met my wife because of him as they were neighbors when I moved in with him).  The latest message I received was in January of this year.

This most recent release?  I'm not.  Except that when I did the searching on the other board it was stated explicitly that the one who released it back then released it now.  And the coincidence of him trying to apologize to me, again, a month before another release?  It just smacks to me of more than just a coincidence.  To me it sounds either like, "Ok, you won't forgive me, then I'll do it again!" or that he knew it was coming (a fellow malcontent that he gave the files to was preparing to release them) and wanted to clear the air between us so that he could plausibly deny any part of it when it happened.  Neither scenario plays well for me.  If you're sorry, truly sorry, then you don't do it again regardless of the circumstances.  And if you knew it was coming then you should have put a stop to it.  That would have been the right thing to do.

Anyways, there may be multiple people with the information (well, now that it is public there are certainly many people with their hands on it).  But it came from a single source.  And from the appearance of things, he's done nothing to keep those files safe since stealing them from me.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm a bit confused as to how you're sure the person who did the release is your roommate. Mind clarifying?

Except that when I did the searching on the other board it was stated explicitly that the one who released it back then released it now.  And the coincidence of him trying to apologize to me, again, a month before another release?  It just smacks to me of more than just a coincidence.  To me it sounds either like, "Ok, you won't forgive me, then I'll do it again!" or that he knew it was coming (a fellow malcontent that he gave the files to was preparing to release them) and wanted to clear the air between us so that he could plausibly deny any part of it when it happened.  Neither scenario plays well for me.  If you're sorry, truly sorry, then you don't do it again regardless of the circumstances.  And if you knew it was coming then you should have put a stop to it.  That would have been the right thing to do.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

[LauraMars]

I just want to come clean about something and display some transparency to the community.

my first name in real life....is laura

[Cowboy]

What she said...but my name is not Laura.

[The Lonely Hunter]

Part of me wants to go check said place out, but another part of me is extremely sure within fifteen minutes I'd be banned.

Don't bother, you are saving yourself by not going over there. I could easily see them as ruining the "Arm Experience" for new players.

I have been around a long time and when I heard about the 'other boards' I became curious and checked it out. I've read there a few times but never posted anything. IMO it is full of a bunch of bitter entitlement brats who generally post nothing but misinfo and pass it off as fact. I admit some of their information is valid but the vast majority is just garbage. After reading some posts it is rather easy to see why many of them have been banned or punished. There is one particular female on there who claims to be an ex-staff member who they seem to place on a pedestal for some reason which is ironic because most of the 'spoilers' that she posts are incorrect.

[Armaddict]

You guys better stop posting about it.  You're obviously just trying to earn karma.  You have no opinion of your own, you are now officially a staff sycophant for disagreeing with their shit.

[BrokenRomance]

Part of me wants to go check said place out, but another part of me is extremely sure within fifteen minutes I'd be banned.

Don't bother, you are saving yourself by not going over there. I could easily see them as ruining the "Arm Experience" for new players.

I have been around a long time and when I heard about the 'other boards' I became curious and checked it out. I've read there a few times but never posted anything. IMO it is full of a bunch of bitter entitlement brats who generally post nothing but misinfo and pass it off as fact. I admit some of their information is valid but the vast majority is just garbage. After reading some posts it is rather easy to see why many of them have been banned or punished. There is one particular female on there who claims to be an ex-staff member who they seem to place on a pedestal for some reason which is ironic because most of the 'spoilers' that she posts are incorrect.

If they spoil a lot of the game, I probably won't go anyway. I've played for about six months now and I've found not knowing what comes next is pretty nifty. Work hard without realising it and suddenly five new skills? That's some hot stuff right there to me.

Now... If the examples in the helpfiles were more clear....

[Coat of Arms]

The thread on the other forum got deleted because you posted the person's fucking RL name.

People do not get banned on the shadowboard for "having the wrong opinion." Suggesting any such thing is ridiculous in the extreme, because that forum is specifically defined by the fact that you can say anything you want and nobody will silence you. Unless you fucking post someone's RL name like an idiot.

Well done. And well done, Armageddon community, for pettily uniting over a false pretense once more in a way that frankly disgraces you.

[Case]

The thread on the other forum got deleted because you posted the person's fucking RL name.

People do not get banned on the shadowboard for "having the wrong opinion." Suggesting any such thing is ridiculous in the extreme, because that forum is specifically defined by the fact that you can say anything you want and nobody will silence you. Unless you fucking post someone's RL name like an idiot.

Well done. And well done, Armageddon community, for pettily uniting over a false pretense once more in a way that frankly disgraces you.

Yes it was the whole community united in pettiness, unlike

[evilcabbage]

a certain group of malcontents who no longer



we are playing the finish the sentence game right?

[Hauwke]

Brush their hair and during that time they

Your turn cabbage bruh

[SleeplessinZalanthanas]

The thread on the other forum got deleted because you posted the person's fucking RL name.

Right, I'm sure that is the reason.  Because deleting a post and banning a user for posting a first name (but no last name, no phone number, nothing that could identify the person) while posting a dossier filled with staff members names and phone numbers makes sense?

Whatever makes you sleep at night.  I'm still chuckling over it.  I could see editing the post to remove the first name (again, really?  First name?).  I could maybe see deleting the entire post (again, really?  For a first name?).  But a user ban and a site ban (I cannot even log in with a guest account, I have to use a proxy server to get to the forum now which, frankly, is too much work)?



Wow.  I'm surprised I wasn't turned in to the FBI, because obviously a first name is some type of crime that ranks up there with pedophilia.  Gotta ban that shit right now!  No email explanation, no censoring of the post, just make it all disappear!  Burn it with fire!  OMG, it's like the type of mass hysteria that only results from dogs and cats living together!

So yes, I'm sure the reason was because I broke the cardinal, unforgivable sin of posting the first name of someone that I know personally.  Yeah, that has to be it.  Because the punishment fits the crime.

And I'm the goblin king.

[evilcabbage]

The thread on the other forum got deleted because you posted the person's fucking RL name.

Right, I'm sure that is the reason.  Because deleting a post and banning a user for posting a first name (but no last name, no phone number, nothing that could identify the person) while posting a dossier filled with staff members names and phone numbers makes sense?

Whatever makes you sleep at night.  I'm still chuckling over it.  I could see editing the post to remove the first name (again, really?  First name?).  I could maybe see deleting the entire post (again, really?  For a first name?).  But a user ban and a site ban (I cannot even log in with a guest account, I have to use a proxy server to get to the forum now which, frankly, is too much work)?



Wow.  I'm surprised I wasn't turned in to the FBI, because obviously a first name is some type of crime that ranks up there with pedophilia.  Gotta ban that shit right now!  No email explanation, no censoring of the post, just make it all disappear!  Burn it with fire!  OMG, it's like the type of mass hysteria that only results from dogs and cats living together!

So yes, I'm sure the reason was because I broke the cardinal, unforgivable sin of posting the first name of someone that I know personally.  Yeah, that has to be it.  Because the punishment fits the crime.

And I'm the goblin king.

is that you david bowie?

[SleeplessinZalanthanas]

Ack!  No personally identifiable information!  Ban him now!!!

[Lizzie]

I always did love that hairdo on you.

#jareth4eva

[evilcabbage]

ha ha ha ha ha

that did not take long.

[Majikal]

The thread on the other forum got deleted because you posted the person's fucking RL FAKE name.

People do not get banned on the shadowboard for "having the wrong opinion." Suggesting any such thing is ridiculous in the extreme, because that forum is specifically defined by the fact that you can say anything you want ruin plots and pettily unite over false pretenses in disgracing ways and nobody will silence you. Unless you fucking post someone's RL FAKE name like an idiot considerate person.

ftfy.

I do love it when people be like...

[Malifaxis]

I see my work has already been completed here, with no risk of me being banned.

I love you guys.

[Dar]

You guys are giving waaaaaay too much food to a bunch of trolls that live somewhere under a bridge and are only having an impact on your life and experience if you allow them to.

[RogueGunslinger]

People do not get banned on the shadowboard for "having the wrong opinion." Suggesting any such thing is ridiculous in the extreme, because that forum is specifically defined by the fact that you can say anything you want and nobody will silence you. Unless you fucking post someone's RL name like an idiot.

Suggesting that posting someones first name is worthy of a ban is ridiculous in the extreme. Also, suggesting that the OP of this thread wasn't banned because of his opinion is a bit ridiculous don't you think? JCarter would not have banned any one of the people who consistently post there and agree with him on a regular basis had they posted someones first name... JCarter has already stated why he banned the OP:

"Honestly, I think banning the guy outright was a bit much.

On the other hand, however, I wouldn't take kindly to someone trying to stir the pot after the dust settled like that either."

i honestly don't want to deal with every retard that signs up here. that's the simple truth of it. i don't care about defending barka's honor or the reputation of the board because it's a video game who gives a shit. armers will win a war of attrition with me because they have nothing better to do with their time. the number of arm players who get so righteously up in arms over people existing on the internet and decide they gotta show them fellas what's-what by registering over here and just trying to stir the pot demonstrates it...

[Beethoven]

I guess I don't really get why we're now making this about jcarter's board. I personally don't care what is posted there and who is banned from there and what they say, right or wrong. If there is another incident like the one alluded to in the OP then okay, I get why we would want to/need to talk about it. Otherwise I say just let them have their forum and we'll have ours.

[Desertman]

I had a conversation with JCarter in regards to the leaked information at one point through his forums. I urged him to not post the information with the understanding that there was nothing I could do in order to prevent it.

I explained to him that if the information was obtained via unsavory means and not through a past staffer who had direct access to the information then he had an obligation in regards to the data.

Posting it, if the information were obtained in any way that may be considered nefarious and/or dishonest would mean that his forums would indirectly be promoting the use of nefarious tactics to obtain information from the Armageddon game/staff to post.

JCarter assured me that he had confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt in every single regard that the information came from a past staffer who had been given access to the information and NOT through any means of hacking and/or nefarious theft. Basically, he confirmed that the information came first hand from a past disgruntled staffer and that was the only reason he would post it.

He agreed with me that if the information had been obtained through nefarious means and not through direct granted access by Armageddon staff that he wouldn't publish it himself.

He agreed that he wouldn't want himself or his forums to be seen as promoting the act of using nefarious and/or dishonest tactics to obtain information to be published on his forums, as that would make his forums indirectly a party to said actions.



I believe that at that time HE believed that the information was coming from a past staffer who had been given access to the information. I think he really did think that....at that time.

Now that we all know the truth, and he does as well, I will expect in short order he will be taking down said information, since he agrees he shouldn't publish things that are obtained through a nefarious manner.

We will see.

[Nergal]

I don't think it matters how a forum admin of another forum runs their forum. The context of the OP mentions it as an aside. The main topic of the post is entirely separate from that. If you don't like how a forum is run (whether it's the GDB or any other forum), you ought to contact the forum admin directly instead of posting about it here.

Let's try to stay in between the lines here and focus on the main point of the post.

[evilcabbage]

sorry.

i tried to do that.

i am going to withdraw from this topic.

[Armaddict]

Meh.

This is very mild, considering that the majority of the conversation on said other-board consists of picking and choosing which person, topic, or ideology to hate on for whatever reason they decide at the time.  It's not exactly 'food for thought' discussions over there...it's all very reactionary and inflammatory towards whoever they want.  At this point we've had...a couple threads where people were more vocal about them?  I would hope they've got the thick skin to be able to deal with some people being able to say what they want.  Otherwise there's that whole phrase about glass houses and stones, etc etc.  But the things said just really don't compare...because we are moderated, and they are not.  (generally).

As far as the original topic...it's a good story.  I don't particularly care about it.  The only way that this has affected me is some shit that I read online while eating popcorn.  I don't know why it got you banned over there.  I don't particularly care.  My game goes on.  My community goes on.

I do think you should play arm again.  Because why not?

[SuchDragonWow]

i am going to withdraw from this topic.

Under the fear of being doxxed, huh?  JS?!  You're in deep, cabbage dude.  

[Case]

I think the Us and Them stuff between the two forums is childish. Just play the game and have fun, and this random tl;dr OP isn't relevant to that (or really anything).

[QuillDipper]

A champion should be nominated from each forum and they should wrestle to prove who has the highest internet dong

[BadSkeelz]

On the one hand, I'll admit my general reaction to this entire thread, starting with the OP (aside from Puppies <3) is



On the other hand, I'm still occasionally stung with guilt over quitting Everquest while my character had a full suit of high-level clan-supplied gear on him that I never gave back. Sorry, Dark Legion. So I can appreciate the want for getting that off your chest. If that's what this thread's originally about.

[SuchDragonWow]

The sad truth is I've beaten all the games on my phone.

[Beethoven]

I think the Us and Them stuff between the two forums is childish. Just play the game and have fun, and this random tl;dr OP isn't relevant to that (or really anything).

+1

[Barzalene]

I think the Us and Them stuff between the two forums is childish. Just play the game and have fun, and this random tl;dr OP isn't relevant to that (or really anything).

It's hard not to fall into an us vs them mentality, when the point of their community is to damage ours. Aside from the vitriol and their posting stolen information (maliciously, I mean clearly maliciously) they started out posting information that's against the rules to give out. The original point of their community is to say crappy things about ours and help people cheat.

Us vs them is kind of the default position.

[Case]

I think the Us and Them stuff between the two forums is childish. Just play the game and have fun, and this random tl;dr OP isn't relevant to that (or really anything).

It's hard not to fall into an us vs them mentality, when the point of their community is to damage ours. Aside from the vitriol and their posting stolen information (maliciously, I mean clearly maliciously) they started out posting information that's against the rules to give out. The original point of their community is to say crappy things about ours and help people cheat.

Us vs them is kind of the default position.

Nothing that wasn't on IM before.

[Armaddict]

I think the Us and Them stuff between the two forums is childish. Just play the game and have fun, and this random tl;dr OP isn't relevant to that (or really anything).

It's hard not to fall into an us vs them mentality, when the point of their community is to damage ours. Aside from the vitriol and their posting stolen information (maliciously, I mean clearly maliciously) they started out posting information that's against the rules to give out. The original point of their community is to say crappy things about ours and help people cheat.

Us vs them is kind of the default position.

Nothing that wasn't on IM before.

Which is their default position as well.  If you really want to contend that there's no difference between the two, i.e. Nothing different between 8-10 people talking about their various exposures to a plot or bashing on a persona or character on a public forum and two people who dislike someone talking about how they dislike someone in a private conversation, I can't really help you.

Edit after Case's reply:  Sorry.  That was a pretty dickish way to put it across.  I meant that the difference between the two is pretty drastic and self-evident to me.  That would have been a better thing to say.

[Case]

I think the Us and Them stuff between the two forums is childish. Just play the game and have fun, and this random tl;dr OP isn't relevant to that (or really anything).

It's hard not to fall into an us vs them mentality, when the point of their community is to damage ours. Aside from the vitriol and their posting stolen information (maliciously, I mean clearly maliciously) they started out posting information that's against the rules to give out. The original point of their community is to say crappy things about ours and help people cheat.

Us vs them is kind of the default position.

Nothing that wasn't on IM before.

Which is their default position as well.  If you really want to contend that there's no difference between the two, i.e. Nothing different between 8-10 people talking about their various exposures to a plot or bashing on a persona or character on a public forum and two people who dislike someone talking about how they dislike someone in a private conversation, I can't really help you.

I didn't contend that at all, but thank you for the attempted help I suppose.

[Chettaman]

A champion should be nominated from each forum and they should wrestle to prove who has the highest internet dong

I volunteer for tribute.

[Norcal]

Forgive. Forget. Play on. Repeat as necessary.


And I have looked at those other forums. It was like looking down the hole of an outdoor privy. Not recommended.

[Hauwke]

A champion should be nominated from each forum and they should wrestle to prove who has the highest internet dong

I volunteer for tribute.

Dude no I nominate Albie or some other beast dude to be our champion.

[Majikal]

A champion should be nominated from each forum and they should wrestle to prove who has the highest internet dong

I volunteer for tribute.

Bro aren't you like our token black guy? We can't risk you. 

[Malifaxis]

A champion should be nominated from each forum and they should wrestle to prove who has the highest internet dong

I volunteer for tribute.

Bro aren't you like our token black guy? We can't risk you. 

Nah man, there's Venomz too.  We are totally racially diverse like a motherfucker.  Oh and Case, who is a 60 year old man who is just very good at cosplay.

[Case]

A champion should be nominated from each forum and they should wrestle to prove who has the highest internet dong

I volunteer for tribute.

Bro aren't you like our token black guy? We can't risk you. 

Nah man, there's Venomz too.  We are totally racially diverse like a motherfucker.  Oh and Case, who is a 60 year old man who is just very good at cosplay.

All jews grow up to be Bernie Sanders

[valeria]

On the one hand, I'll admit my general reaction to this entire thread, starting with the OP (aside from Puppies <3) is



On the other hand, I'm still occasionally stung with guilt over quitting Everquest while my character had a full suit of high-level clan-supplied gear on him that I never gave back. Sorry, Dark Legion. So I can appreciate the want for getting that off your chest. If that's what this thread's originally about.

Mine is more like


But the puppies delivered.

[Malken]

The Jcarter Asylum's ability to attract batshit crazy people makes it one of my 'mind-resting' stop along with reddit and a few other gaming sites when I need a break from work-related stuff.

[Rhyden]

As a mostly impartial observer nowadays, I can see the pros and cons of both forums.

It seems to me that jcarter's forum is a symptom of a growing problem with how the game was/is run.

In regards to OP, seems like you were banned for doxing. So, yeah. Maybe don't dox?

[RogueGunslinger]

 

[Malken]

I would say that Armageddon definitely suffers from what I would call a "lack of 2016 realism", and in that regard, I've never felt guilty using their docs, maps and skill lists. I also feel that there's been small steps done to fix that in the official docs and in the gameplay, but certainly not enough to bring me back when I know that I'd have to dedicate immense hours of my life that I don't have anymore to be able to "enjoy" the game, at least at the level that I find enjoyable.

The Jcarter Asylum is still a pretty funny read though, even if I don't play anymore, especially when the local wack packers go on a paranoia binge.

(I reserve the name Medicated Malken for that forum, if I ever return there one day)

[BrokenRomance]

I would say that Armageddon definitely suffers from what I would call a "lack of 2016 realism", and in that regard, I've never felt guilty using their docs, maps and skill lists. I also feel that there's been small steps done to fix that in the official docs and in the gameplay, but certainly not enough to bring me back when I know that I'd have to dedicate immense hours of my life that I don't have anymore to be able to "enjoy" the game, at least at the level that I find enjoyable.

The Jcarter Asylum is still a pretty funny read though, even if I don't play anymore, especially when the local wack packers go on a paranoia binge.

(I reserve the name Medicated Malken for that forum, if I ever return there one day)

I'm a bit curious. Are you saying having the entirety of the game mapped out is the realism of 2016?

If so... Lord. I'm stuck in 2015 or earlier.

[evilcabbage]

As a mostly impartial observer nowadays, I can see the pros and cons of both forums.

It seems to me that jcarter's forum is a symptom of a growing problem with how the game was/is run.

In regards to OP, seems like you were banned for doxing. So, yeah. Maybe don't dox?

"Doxing" is a neologism that has evolved over its brief history. It comes from a spelling alteration of the abbreviation "docs" (for "documents") and refers to "compiling and releasing a dossier of personal information on someone".[9] Essentially, doxing is openly revealing and publicizing records of an individual, which were previously private or difficult to obtain.


so, going by that definition... saying that his old roommates name is "timmy' really is not doxing, because a) that information probably is not difficult to obtain, and b) he never published -records- of the person. he gave a name (timmy) which is as common as larry or john or george.

get real.

[Beethoven]

evilcabbage, regardless of what you think of the name drop, Nergal censored it so you should probably not use it.

[Malken]

I'm a bit curious. Are you saying having the entirety of the game mapped out is the realism of 2016?

If so... Lord. I'm stuck in 2015 or earlier.

No, gaming realism of 2016 is not having to spend an insane amount of hours a day to achieve decent skill levels on a character that risks dying at any moment and having to constantly re-start that process over and over again. Any tools that will allow me to enjoy a decent character for a decent amount of time in the least amount of time played is cool with me and fits well with my ever-diminishing time to put in a game. I understand that there are people with plenty more time than me or who strive on that sort of virtual sadicism (hey, I did too at one time in my life!) but I also feel like this amount of people with that amount of time to dedicate to -one- game is on a steep descending curve.

Again, I'm not trying to change anything because I understand that there are some steps taken to take care of such problems, but I'm mostly chitchattin' it up as to why that other forum had some decent tools for me to use back in the days, and I don't feel an ounce of guilt about using them.

The lack of tools that the game offers new players and old players alike to make their stay in the game slightly more pleasant is what got me there in the first place, the wack packers is what keeps me going back.

[burble]

Burble was my iscaBBS handle.
Probably before the OPs time though.

[Rhyden]

"Doxing" is a neologism that has evolved over its brief history. It comes from a spelling alteration of the abbreviation "docs" (for "documents") and refers to "compiling and releasing a dossier of personal information on someone".[9] Essentially, doxing is openly revealing and publicizing records of an individual, which were previously private or difficult to obtain.

so, going by that definition... saying that his old roommates name is "timmy' really is not doxing, because a) that information probably is not difficult to obtain, and b) he never published -records- of the person. he gave a name (timmy) which is as common as larry or john or george.

get real.

So you're saying it is ok to reveal IRL information about players?

Are you also saying it's ok to reveal IC information about the game?

Not meant as a strawman. I'm genuinely curious. Thanks.

[Lizzie]

So he posts about a guy and gives him a name. And the other place bans him for doxing. Except - he didn't give the guy's real name. So there was no doxing, no matter how you interpret the term.

[LauraMars]

I don't think we need to be arguing about the definition of doxxing to this extent. We're a small community, and it's just good manners on the internet to allow people as much or as little anonymity as they desire...first names included. What does or does not constitute 'doxxing' has pretty much nothing to do with it.

(also if we're sending out champions for something can i be picked?)

[Lizzie]

I don't think we need to be arguing about the definition of doxxing to this extent. We're a small community, and it's just good manners on the internet to allow people as much or as little anonymity as they desire...first names included. What does or does not constitute 'doxxing' has pretty much nothing to do with it.

(also if we're sending out champions for something can i be picked?)

Agreed that anonymity is a good thing.

That's why it makes no sense to ban someone for posting a fake name.

[Malken]

(also if we're sending out champions for something can i be picked?)

We call them raiders, get with the program LAURA.

Doxxed.

[Jihelu]

(also if we're sending out champions for something can i be picked?)

We call them raiders, get with the program LAURA.

Doxxed.

Banned

[LauraMars]

That's why it makes no sense to ban someone for posting a fake name.

I don't see where in the OP it was clearly stated the name was fake but you know.

Malken its ok that you doxxed me bro*, I believe in the greater good of humanity and that nobody from here (or there, for that matter) is going to show up at my doorstep with a fire axe and no pants.

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv_Au-6lZ5w

[Malken]

I don't see where in the OP it was clearly stated the name was fake but you know.

His name is Robert Paulson.

Meme'd.

[Nergal]

I'm going to lock this thread now. This is nothing against the OP, or the original intent of this thread. It's not to be seen as a blanket punishment, but rather, an end to a discussion that has gone off the rails, with a final word.

The OP's point has been made. People have used something mentioned as an aside in the post to gloat and showboat. I also stated earlier in the thread that I preferred that names not be used.

In our community, and life in general, there is the concept of being the bigger person. Admitting to something you feel is your fault, in a way (as was the main point of the OP) is an example of that. In practice, this relates to staff's preference that players don't bash other MUDs on the GDB, for example. The concept of being the bigger person is well-established and fairly strong here. Or at least it's supposed to be. Whether it is anymore is up for debate, now. Complaining about other forums here is not being the bigger person. Nor is it being the bigger person when you go off to troll another forum in the name of one you are "loyal" to.

I recommend that everyone consider the following: treat rudeness as if it never happened, because it never should have. That is fair advice here, I think, and in life in general. Jcarter's forum is, ostensibly, rude. But let's not pretend that many active players haven't looked at it at least once, if not regularly read it, if not actively participate on it. Let's not pretend Jcarter's forum didn't have a spike in new accounts as soon as the wiki leaked, because you need an account to download ProBoards attachments. Regardless of whether they're rude hypocrites or not, the least you all could do is not be exactly the same.

EDIT to add: it's also more than a little pathetic that more people here read Jcarter's forum than, say, vote for the game on TMS and TMC. You know, something that would actually be beneficial to the game.

If you care that much, then stop it already. Clearly, lamenting here isn't going to do anything. So just treat it like it never happened, and ignore it.