Banking deed

[evilcabbage]

one sid, 100 sid, 1000 sid.

if you want to be exact, go for it.




cast 'mon un cabbage divan chran' nauta
Tendrils of green vines begin to writhe as you chant.

You utter an incantation.
Vines sweep out of the ground, wrapping around Nauta and dragging her into the earth!

[Chettaman]

I think currency and the way banks works is an IC concept.

[Majikal]

I'd venture to say almost none of either city-state's population uses Nenyuk. If your commoner has so much coin they can't carry it around perhaps you're commonering wrong.

Personally I wish Nenyuk required a particular status of citizen to use.

[hyzhenhok]

I'd venture to say almost none of either city-state's population uses Nenyuk. If your commoner has so much coin they can't carry it around perhaps you're commonering wrong.

Personally I wish Nenyuk required a particular status of citizen to use.

I agree. I would further say I think the presence of the bank leads to a lot of bad commonering. Your bank account balance is a number you can make go up in a game that otherwise lacks numbers to make go up. The mere presence of the bank encourages players to min-max the economy and accumulate wealth, because they can. While it's easy to say "well, players should just avoid doing that," if there's agreement that players shouldn't be doing this, then why not put caps on how how your bank balance can go, or remove it completely?

Rejig encumbrance and coin weight so carrying 500-1500 coins isn't a huge hindrance for low strength characters and the need for the bank vanishes.

[evilcabbage]

I'd venture to say almost none of either city-state's population uses Nenyuk. If your commoner has so much coin they can't carry it around perhaps you're commonering wrong.

Personally I wish Nenyuk required a particular status of citizen to use.

I agree. I would further say I think the presence of the bank leads to a lot of bad commonering. Your bank account balance is a number you can make go up in a game that otherwise lacks numbers to make go up. The mere presence of the bank encourages players to min-max the economy and accumulate wealth, because they can. While it's easy to say "well, players should just avoid doing that," if there's agreement that players shouldn't be doing this, then why not put caps on how how your bank balance can go, or remove it completely?

Rejig encumbrance and coin weight so carrying 500-1500 coins isn't a huge hindrance for low strength characters and the need for the bank vanishes.

be more like the cabbage, who has never held more than a few thousand coins on his characters at any point in his entire arm career.

[hyzhenhok]

I'd venture to say almost none of either city-state's population uses Nenyuk. If your commoner has so much coin they can't carry it around perhaps you're commonering wrong.

Personally I wish Nenyuk required a particular status of citizen to use.

I agree. I would further say I think the presence of the bank leads to a lot of bad commonering. Your bank account balance is a number you can make go up in a game that otherwise lacks numbers to make go up. The mere presence of the bank encourages players to min-max the economy and accumulate wealth, because they can. While it's easy to say "well, players should just avoid doing that," if there's agreement that players shouldn't be doing this, then why not put caps on how how your bank balance can go, or remove it completely?

Rejig encumbrance and coin weight so carrying 500-1500 coins isn't a huge hindrance for low strength characters and the need for the bank vanishes.

be more like the cabbage, who has never held more than a few thousand coins on his characters at any point in his entire arm career.

While it's easy to say "well, players should just avoid doing that," if there's agreement that players shouldn't be doing this, then why not put caps on how how your bank balance can go, or remove it completely?

[Chettaman]

Tell me I'm not the only one who remembers when coins were weightless and took up no space.

I'm not sure how to explain how I think that Nenyuk is so good without ... explaining why I think so. Which is IC. Whoever made the Nenyuk clan is a mastermind.

[Malifaxis]

IMHO, coin weights are too light.  I would sincerely love to see either deeds or denominations done.

an obsidian coin
an ivory coin (100)
A jade, impressively s-desced coin (1000)
A coin carved from pure fuckallinite, carved with rad shit (10000...because nobles)

[Inks]

Kooky idea: What if we just had two kinds of coins: one worth 100 sid and another worth 500.  NPC vendors would not give change.  This would (1) solve the heaviness problem; (2) encourage more bartering among the masses and PC-to-PC trading.  It'd probably have negative consequences on off-peaker crafters who want to buy short bones, though.

offer stone; barter

[Jingo]

Is there an acceptable method for independents to store their wealth?

It always seems to roll into: Independents should probably not be storing their wealth.

[Case]

Is there an acceptable method for independents to store their wealth?

It always seems to roll into: Independents should probably not be storing their wealth.

It's the part where they have wealth that seems to be the issue

[Jingo]

If it's a problem, then our fundamental game systems need to be reconsidered.

Not just banking.

[Desertman]

Part of the fun of the game for a lot of people is trying to acquire wealth for your character.

That's a base fundamental, perhaps THE base fundamental of almost every RPG I can think of.

Get loot, become wealthy.

I don't think we should be looking for ways to ensure that part of the game becomes nigh impossible for independents. If you do that then the people who enjoy playing independents will probably find it much less enjoyable.

Also, once your independent PC reaches a certain threshold of wealth, power, and influence, staff WILL bring the world to life to fuck with you (and never positively). It won't be just random thieves either. It will be people so high up the chain you might as well just be playing against staff avatars. Had it happen more than a few times with past independents of mine. They are certainly on top of it once you reach a certain point.

I think a better direction to take the thought process behind "How to deal with wealthy independents.", is not, "How do we prevent it.".

I think a better direction would be come up with an idea/ideas for, "How do we make it both realistic and enjoyable for independents who reach that threshold.".

It's cool and fun to get wealthy with an independent. But once you reach a certain point, you really do stop playing with/against the playerbase. From then on, it's just you vs whatever high ranking NPC gets animated to fuck with you directly or through another PC via proxy. The game then becomes about as enjoyable as just receiving a request via the request tool saying, "We are taking your money and there's nothing you can do about it.". It amounts to the same thing for you in terms of playability.

The Minor Merchant House system is a pretty awesome money-sink, but it's also a very flawed system that has some very key points that need to be corrected/fixed and to date it's working off of the same documentation that was put in hypothetically. There haven't been any changes to it yet in terms of revisions based on player feedback from them actually being part of the system. It's still just the system that was put in based on, "How we think this might work without ever having anyone actually try it.".

I think the key for making wealthy independents more interesting, and more interesting to play is to figure out this:

- How do we allow wealthy independents to actually utilize their wealth for the fun of the game, and themselves, while also making the game entertainingly difficult for them?

Right now the only solution I've seen is, "Take away their money, influence, or allies via animations of untouchables.". It's pretty "meh".

[BadSkeelz]

I think the key for making wealthy independents more interesting, and more interesting to play is to figure out this:

- How do we allow wealthy independents to actually utilize their wealth for the fun of the game, and themselves, while also making the game entertainingly difficult for them?

Right now the only solution I've seen is, "Take away their money, influence, or allies via animations of untouchables.". It's pretty "meh".

Murdering them with PCs works pretty well, too.

Finding new ways to spend money is a better solution than new ways to earn or store money. Making 'sids is piss-easy if you have a crafting or thieving skill.

[Desertman]

Murdering them with PCs works pretty good, too.

Finding new ways to spend money is a better solution than new ways to earn or store money. Making 'sids is piss-easy if you have a crafting or thieving skill.

I recommend the introduction of this "banking ticket" or something similar to make murdering them something that happens more often when they decide to amass massive amounts of wealth. (But not pay the right people/hire the right people to protect it.)

[hyzhenhok]

Nobody is saying indie's shouldn't be able to accumulate wealth. The point is doing so should require some effort. There should be a barrier to entry. It should not be simply a matter of walking to an NPC and typing deposit (and paying a tariff).

All we need is to get it to the point where players who aren't terribly concerned with accumulating wealth don't do so by default because it's so easy and inexpensive. It's so easy an inexpensive, in fact, not doing so requires ridiculous IC contortions. It should be reduced to being one of a number of options one can spend money on. If you have to jump through a few hoops before you can safely seal your wealth away, you'll be incentivized to be more creative and searching in finding something to do with extra money.

Making big, safe piles of money more rare would help wealthy indies by giving their wealth more significant. One of the reasons money means little in the game is any PC that's lived a few IC months and didn't literally junk money every time he had 500+ coin in his inventory is going to be rich, because that's what the current system encourages.

[Desertman]

No argument on that front here.

Did you know you can't actually JUNK money? I found this out when I tried to junk money for just this reason heh. I wanted to stay poor.

[Beethoven]

I have been lobbying for being able to junk money for about a year now, since I learned that :/ I hate that you can't.

[evilcabbage]

junk coin does not work?

[CodeMaster]

I'm not saying there's an overlap in the players who want to junk money and the players who use the bank and live in bombproof apartments, but...

If you want your money to disappear, make your apartment into a mini-game for some eager thief out there and forget to lock your door.

[Beethoven]

I rarely have an excess of coins. Sometimes I just want to junk money to give it to a VNPC for roleplaying purposes.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I rarely have enough money to be considered rich on an OOC level, even though sometimes I'll work my butt off for it, because I'm an irresponsible brat who shouldn't be allowed to handle money.

One time I made 5000 coins for my brother so he could live in an apartment in Allanak while being employed by the Byn. That was by far the most I have _ever_ had on me, and I'm hearing about these people with 10,000-50,000 coins and I'm like wtf, but I've never had a multi-year character with armormaking, so.

[Desertman]

I'm not saying there's an overlap in the players who want to junk money and the players who use the bank and live in bombproof apartments, but...

If you want your money to disappear, make your apartment into a mini-game for some eager thief out there and forget to lock your door.

This is a possibility.

See my post earlier in this thread regarding me intentionally leaving around 10,000 coins in a chest for a potential daring thief to possibly get from me.

However, I had a very IC reason for doing that. (I was taking so much money "in and out" regularly that if I just didn't get hit for an IC year, more or less, I would actually SAVE money on the Nenyuk fees even if the whole 10,000 got swiped by some thief at the end of that year. It never actually got hit.)

Most people don't have an IC reason to leave their wealth in situations where they know it is vulnerable when the alternative is to walk to Nenyuk and get instant untouchable access.

[hyzhenhok]

I'm not saying there's an overlap in the players who want to junk money and the players who use the bank and live in bombproof apartments, but...

If you want your money to disappear, make your apartment into a mini-game for some eager thief out there and forget to lock your door.

This is exactly what I mean by "ridiculous IC contortions." If my character is rational, conscientious and frugal, s/he cannot reallly avoid becoming rich. That means in order to avoid becoming wealthy, I must play a character who is either frankly stupid, careless, lazy, and/or a spendthrift. Wealth accumulation and storage should not be so easy and such a no-brainer that I must give my character traits I don't want them to have in order to avoid it. Not to mention your example implies an assumption that all characters will rent an apartment when they are able too--but again, I shouldn't have to make up a reason for my character to get an apartment just so I can have a money sink.

I shouldn't have to design my character around avoiding getting rich. I definitely shouldn't have to act out of character.

[Chettaman]

if you're conscientious and frugal, then yeah. Of course you'll accumulate money.

You may not believe this, but there are plenty of ''stupid'' people in the real world.
And ... no. I guess I should say that there are plenty of people who aren't money smart in the real world.
Five TVs man. Five fucking TVs. I think I mentioned this before how this guy I knew who was always complaining about not having enough money was always smoking weed, was always renting movies /and/ being late to return them, was always buying alcohol going out to the club and bla bla bla - had bought five TVs.

This type of being bad with money isn't rare. Not at all. Especially among those already living in poverty. This type being bad with money is rare among people who have money, because ... it makes sense that people who are bad with money would have no money.
anyway... yeah. Of course if you're conscientious and frugal you're most likely to be wealthy.