Shadow so stronk

[Warsong]

So I've noticed when shadowing someone that if they hide and disappear from my sight, I'm actually still following them. In fact, if I shadow somebody and they aren't able to scan well enough to unhitch me, there's literally nothing they can possibly do. Even if I can't detect them with scan, I still follow them. If they get away from me by climbing or fleeing, I'm actually still following them codedly, so I can just go stand in whatever room I expect them to pass through later and I'll latch on whenever they move past even if I can't see them. It seems kind of broken.

I suppose it might be this way so that people working together can stealth as a group if they're all able, but I feel that there should be a different mechanic for that, like if you start following somebody when both you and they are visible, you can continue following them through stealth. It implies that both parties are okay with it. Shadowing is more of a threatening act and it feels pretty wrong that nothing can apparently be done against it. If the victim hides well enough to even slip away from being watched, one should also be forced to stop shadowing them.

Also, you can shadow people pretty much anywhere. Clanned gates with an NPC that scrutinizes every person? No problem. And since walking through these gates is an instant action with no warning other than being in the room with the gate, you can accidentally find yourself inside clan HQs that you never had any intentions of sneaking into. You'd have to predict that they were going in there, and unshadow in time, which can be a bit difficult if the person is just spamwalking along and you had to sneeze or something.

Even if somebody starts running while you shadow them, you just run with them, in stealth. Shadow is basically magic. It completely defies physics and logic and creates wildly unrealistic scenarios that don't make any sense. What gives?

[Asmoth]

I think FLEE SELF causes you to become dislodged but I'm not sure.

[solera]

I think the follow code must be kind of old. I noticed it when I was following a friend around town. The friend left town (I think). A little later I got the message about stopping at the edge of a fall.    But as you say, it makes shadowing overpowered.

[Patuk]

Commencing shadow on a sneaky person and turning on the watch skill so they will start failing even simple shit is how many a master pickpocket meets their doom. Both shadow and watch are kinda silly in that regard, yeah.

[Vox]

The problem is, if you start tweaking shadow you very quickly unravel its usefulness period. To get to the point where you can actually shadow someone successfully over distance takes mastery, and I would imagine it would be assumed that you are doing things like blending into the crowds and following at a slight distance so your mark remains unaware, even if they start running you simply pick up your pace but have learned your skulking art well enough to stay out of their periphery, etc. It takes a little extra dramatic license and imagination on the part of everyone involved, but that's really the nature of a text-based game with a robust code that's doing the herculean task of supporting this pretend world. That includes the scripted door guards who swiftly allow entrance to clannies out of OOC convenience really, so multiple keys don't have to be loaded, etc. Shadowing someone into a place like that on purpose should be doable(because if it's not the door guard might as well be a forcefield) but requires a little imagination I think to allow for distractions etc. (i.e. the guard doesn't close the gate quickly enough because he's watching some scantly-clad so and so wander past)

That said, I have two suggestions that might possibly help:

1. Perhaps something can be added into the code that forces someone shadowing someone else to 'watch' them as well. That would cancel their ability to scan the crowd but realistically they would be focused on their mark anyway and if with watch activated the target couldn't vanish out of view anyhow.
> shadow Warsong
You start watching Warsong and fall in behind him.

2. Don't blindly shadow spam-walking spammers.


My shadow/follow issue is related to Sleight of Hand.. the delay added to sleight of hand makes it impossible to do while shadowing/following which seems highly counter-intuitive. I know the delay was added in response to players using palm and slip like put and take but I think there is a less punitive way to achieve this.
Keep the delay until the skill hits (advanced) and remove it as a means of showing deftness. This would allow a skulking skulker to actually palm something or slip something successfully while in follow mode if someone is merrily spamming movement without solo RP'ing some colorful emotes on the off-chance a stealthed PC is on their tail.

[Warsong]

The problem is, if you start tweaking shadow you very quickly unravel its usefulness period.

Its usefulness isn't unraveled by fixing the objectively unrealistic aspects of the ability. Once you've stopped actively following the guy, shadow should toggle off instead of staying on like a modal ability that magically scans for the guy with the right serial number. At the very least, it needs to be made so that if the shadower and shadowed part ways, the coded follow stops. Otherwise you get these ridiculous situations where I shadow you, then wander off to sell some shit in the bazaar and then suddenly an hour later I'm dragged along as you sneak past hidden because I didn't remember to follow self. Shadow should end the moment you no longer have eyes on the guy, and that should frankly be common sense. The command already has no delay so that you can start shadowing again immediately if you were able to find the guy. The code doesn't need to cheat for you.

[Vox]

..because I didn't remember to follow self.

I get that forgetting stuff like that can lead to OOC awkwardness.. But so can forgetting to set mercy on while sparring..

I personally don't find it so dramatically unrealistic to expect the player shadowing someone to then be responsible enough to then shadow self when they're done..

I'm not sure this is the 'code cheating for you' unless it's being abused, which in this case it's not.. It's abusing you

[valeria]

I'd like it if it turned off when they got a room or two away, like how your mount gets unhitched if you leave its general vicinity.

[Lizzie]

Shadow/Follow really should automatically "unhitch" after awhile. I'm okay with it sticking for several rooms, because of certain situations. One that I can post about: you're following the leader of a crew out of [scary area] and they are really great at climbing, while you suck at it. The area requires single-file movement. Being "hitched" to them seems to help give you a minimal boost to a successful climb, and when you get to the top, you don't have to try and remember to re-follow the leader. There are other reasons why I'm okay with it for a distance of maybe 6-10 rooms. After that, I agree it's kind of silly.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I got a lot of feelings on this, so I'm going to handle this situation by situation:

Shadow Running: I'm fine with being able to run-shadow people for the reason Vox stated (you'd realistically be a ways behind them), however it would be nice it it was significantly more difficult because even if it's practically possible, it would be a lot harder, and basically everyone on the street who isn't your target would notice. It would also be nice if running had a chance to bump your pursuer. (Which technically it does, but only if you're taller than whoever's chasing you.)

Unhitch: I don't like that unhitch works for shadow. It's fine as an OOC convenience for follow because follow has an echo and implies consent. Shadow means, whether you like it or not and whether you can see me or not, I'm following you. If you want to get rid of me, outrun me or flee self or something. That way guards could use the same command (or maybe a visible "chase" variant) to hitch themselves to criminals so there would be no more running away from guards and getting 3 blocks down the road before they even get their "run" toggled on...

Shadow Auto Dropping: I don't like the idea of auto dropping shadow. I like that you pick up on your quarry automatically. Consider the scenario that you're a rinthi and you've noticed some Bynner wandering around the rinth because he couldn't find someone to spar with. So you shadow him around a bit, discern that he's up to no good, and backstab him. He flees combat successfully, so you get up to make a sandwich cause what the hell else are you going to do while waiting down that backstab lag? You come back to your keyboard and sneak your way to a bottleneck in the alleys that you KNOW he'll have to come through to get out... and then he spam-walks past before you can get your 'shadow aba' command off. Nope. Fuck that. Your character would pick up the chase instantly, even if you the player cannot because of the mechanics of the situation.

That being said, I would be fine with there being an auto shut off timer on it of say 10 or 15 minutes since you last followed them from a room. Going by rooms isn't a very good idea because, while the concept of "15 rooms" is easy for a human to wrap their head around, for a computer not so much. I've never written path-finding code like this, but it seems like it would be both tricky and processor intensive. A timer is neither tricky nor expensive.

Shadowing Through Doors / Gates:   I actually think some portals should be made impossible to sneak through via shadow. Apartment doors and compound gates are chief amongst them. You should be able to follow people in with shadow, but your sneak should auto-fail and announce your presence. The compound gate is a bit more understandable, but even if the guard was distracted enough to let a hooded figure wander through that's 95% luck on your character's part, and not skill. If you want to use an attractive girl to distract the guard, wish up.

This is a bit of a derail, but wouldn't it be cool if gate permission were attached to clan gear rather than clan status? So, if I can get my hands on an orange epaulette, I can walk right on in to the Salarri compound?

[manipura]

This is a bit of a derail, but wouldn't it be cool if gate permission were attached to clan gear rather than clan status? So, if I can get my hands on an orange epaulette, I can walk right on in to the Salarri compound?

I always wished this was a thing.

[valeria]

Shadow Auto Dropping: I don't like the idea of auto dropping shadow. I like that you pick up on your quarry automatically. Consider the scenario that you're a rinthi and you've noticed some Bynner wandering around the rinth because he couldn't find someone to spar with. So you shadow him around a bit, discern that he's up to no good, and backstab him. He flees combat successfully, so you get up to make a sandwich cause what the hell else are you going to do while waiting down that backstab lag? You come back to your keyboard and sneak your way to a bottleneck in the alleys that you KNOW he'll have to come through to get out... and then he spam-walks past before you can get your 'shadow aba' command off. Nope. Fuck that. Your character would pick up the chase instantly, even if you the player cannot because of the mechanics of the situation.

Yes... if you see him go past. But if he's sneaking or hiding and you can't see him, automatically latching on as he goes past seems wrong to me. Which is what the op mentioned specifically.

Anyway, with that exception I'm pretty much fine with your take on things. Except I'm pretty sure you already can't unhitch someone you can't see? So I'm not as sure about that point.

[nauta]

Shadow Running: I'm fine with being able to run-shadow people for the reason Vox stated (you'd realistically be a ways behind them), however it would be nice it it was significantly more difficult because even if it's practically possible, it would be a lot harder, and basically everyone on the street who isn't your target would notice. It would also be nice if running had a chance to bump your pursuer. (Which technically it does, but only if you're taller than whoever's chasing you.)

I like this one.

Here are two other cases:

Mounts.  Sometimes you'll see a mount just skulking around.  No.  You shouldn't be able to hide if someone else is hitched to you (or at least a mount).

Disappearing.  If your mark performs a successful hide on you, you should stop shadowing/following.  They have eluded your shadow attempts, and you should've been watching them to prevent this.  I know that this puts pressure on shadow groups, but if a group of skulks wants to go skulking, they should use the way to coordinate their movements.

[hyzhenhok]

I don't think this part of the code is perfect, but I am very suspicious of declarations of what is and is not "realistic" and thus should be disallowed. A lot of it, frankly, is people deciding that incredibly agile, master sneaks should not be able to perform incredible, masterful feats of stealth. Just because you didn't see him emote how exactly he got through that tightly guarded passageway or followed you at high speed down a busy street (and you certainly didn't give him the chance to emote it out, anyway) doesn't mean it couldn't happen or the other player is acting unrealistically.

Sure, shadow shouldn't pick up people whose trail you've lost and who have gone invisible but walk back through a room you're in. But let's slow down on some of this other stuff.

[Asmoth]

This is a bit of a derail, but wouldn't it be cool if gate permission were attached to clan gear rather than clan status? So, if I can get my hands on an orange epaulette, I can walk right on in to the Salarri compound?

I always wished this was a thing.

Agreed, this would be awesome, the gate guard can't know the hundreds of people personally.

[Delirium]

I like the idea in theory, in practice there's a lot more to a successful disguise than a patch or a pair of armbands, and it would cause those single items to become unreasonably powerful.

[Asmoth]

I like the idea in theory, in practice there's a lot more to a successful disguise than a patch or a pair of armbands, and it would cause those single items to become unreasonably powerful.

True, but irrelevant, I can go get clanned Salarr today and walk into all the gates wearing nothing. It's a purely ooc concept of magickal clan involvement that works those gates.  It would make more sense to have a password then it would for someone to clan me and instantly every stronghold in the known of that clan knows I'm cool.

[Delirium]

I like the idea in theory, in practice there's a lot more to a successful disguise than a patch or a pair of armbands, and it would cause those single items to become unreasonably powerful.

True, but irrelevant, I can go get clanned Salarr today and walk into all the gates wearing nothing. It's a purely ooc concept of magickal clan involvement that works those gates.  It would make more sense to have a password then it would for someone to clan me and instantly every stronghold in the known of that clan knows I'm cool.

To get clanned you have to actually interact with members of said clan. In the "magic patch" scenario all you have to do is find a dead body.

[Asmoth]

I like the idea in theory, in practice there's a lot more to a successful disguise than a patch or a pair of armbands, and it would cause those single items to become unreasonably powerful.

True, but irrelevant, I can go get clanned Salarr today and walk into all the gates wearing nothing. It's a purely ooc concept of magickal clan involvement that works those gates.  It would make more sense to have a password then it would for someone to clan me and instantly every stronghold in the known of that clan knows I'm cool.

To get clanned you have to actually interact with members of said clan. In the "magic patch" scenario all you have to do is find a dead body.

So? It would make people in clans actually interact with each other more.

Hey who is that guy? I've seen him a few times but I never heard about a new hire...

Lock the door, draw weapon, who are you and who hired you... Fun ensues.

[Delirium]

That seems over the top and ignores the question of easy abuse, but I can see that we're not going to change each other's minds.

[Asmoth]

That seems over the top and ignores the question of easy abuse, but I can see that we're not going to change each other's minds.

I guess the way I look at it is being inventive to figure out a way around the system.  It shouldn't be an infallible AI that can tell everything and keep everything straight 100% of the time.

Clans should get burglarized, people should be murdered in their clan halls and bad shit should happen.  But as it is now, being behind that gate is the safest place in the world.

The system should be perfect just because it can be coded to be that way.

[evilcabbage]

I like the idea in theory, in practice there's a lot more to a successful disguise than a patch or a pair of armbands, and it would cause those single items to become unreasonably powerful.

True, but irrelevant, I can go get clanned Salarr today and walk into all the gates wearing nothing. It's a purely ooc concept of magickal clan involvement that works those gates.  It would make more sense to have a password then it would for someone to clan me and instantly every stronghold in the known of that clan knows I'm cool.

To get clanned you have to actually interact with members of said clan. In the "magic patch" scenario all you have to do is find a dead body.

So? It would make people in clans actually interact with each other more.

Hey who is that guy? I've seen him a few times but I never heard about a new hire...

Lock the door, draw weapon, who are you and who hired you... Fun ensues.

hi i was hired by kaliven salarr.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Shadow Auto Dropping: I don't like the idea of auto dropping shadow. ... Your character would pick up the chase instantly, even if you the player cannot because of the mechanics of the situation.

Yes... if you see him go past. But if he's sneaking or hiding and you can't see him, automatically latching on as he goes past seems wrong to me. Which is what the op mentioned specifically.

Good distinction and I agree. As long as fixing this means you can still follow a stealth buddy. I suspect that these two things look identical at the coded level though.

Anyway, with that exception I'm pretty much fine with your take on things. Except I'm pretty sure you already can't unhitch someone you can't see? So I'm not as sure about that point.

True you have to see them to unhitch them. But if you notice someone doing a bad job of shadowing you, is it realistic that you can just do "unhitch figure" and then continue walking along, leaving them in the dust at a leisurely strolling pace? What's the justification for this? You turn and fix your pursuer with a stare that rattles them to the core and destroys their resolve to tail you? With follow this makes sense because 'follow' implies that they're following you with your knowledge and consent. So saying "say Wait here.; unhitch amos" makes sense as an OOC level. 

I don't feel that the same can be said about turning to find a shady figure following you against your knowledge/consent. You should have to either call them out on it ("Can I help you? Stop following me or I'll call the guards!") or have to ditch them through other means (hiding, fleeing, running, attacking, etc.)  I could see this being a positive change for both sneakies and militia as it means that if they're questioning you and you decide to run they will chase you down by default.

[Vox]

What if 'flee self' had an extra component added to it that could 'unhitch' followers, not just get away one room and leave the follower attached? This would represent he player who is being tailed(or just thinks they are) actively running off to avoid being followed. And the shadower would have to catch up and re-shadow.

I'd kind of love to see a bunch of paranoid PC's randomly fleeing self through the town, especially when they aren't being shadowed at all.

[Armaddict]

Have talked about shadow as one of the main problems with stealth for a long time.

I think 'shadow' should keep you a certain number of rooms behind, set by the shadower.  I like the 'shadow/watch' forced combination in tandem with this.

i.e. Shadow 3, you are staying 3 rooms behind, you have them watched.  You're unlikely to glean so much information from them at this distance, but you also suffer no penalties to your stealth.  This is extremely low risk, casual shadowing (there is casual shadowing in the game for serious information-gathering stealthies).
    Shadow 2, you are closer.  You have them watched.  You're still not likely to glean much information, but you're closer and able to react to their behavior more readily.  Penalties are not large at this distance, at all.
    Shadow 1, you are one room away.  You have then watched.  You're in listen range for conversation.  You're able to move up and advance on them quickly, but if they go through a door you'll be left outside.  Penalties are not drastic here, but someone with max scan vs your max-hide would likely be able to spot you.
    Shadow, you are keeping tight on their position.  Close enough that you can overhear whispers.  Close enough that if they duck into a doorway, you're planning on going in with them.  It's important for you to keep close, and thus, you suffer penalties to sneak and hide.

With a set up like this, not much changes aside from that it becomes very risky to just sit there and follow people around.  At some point, if you're careless, you will get discovered, and so falling back and moving in as pertinent to what you need is more important than just typing in a single command.

While I wouldn't need the above exactly, what I am looking for is for stealth to remain powerful for those who depend on it.  The dependence on stealth is just so high, for certain classes doing certain roles, particularly with the playerbase being so averse to the stealthy classes; people do everything they can to foil a stealthy, due to how stealth works.  At the same time, I want it to be a dynamic, interactive relationship between stealthy and non-stealthy.  The stealth game should not be one command and you're good to go.  Make it so that a shadow target going around a corner requires you to move up to that corner manually before the shadow starts again.  Make it active cat and mouse and predator and prey and predator-becomes-prey situations.

All in all, I think stealth as a whole needs some revamps, but not nerfs.  Just things that make it far more interesting to use.  Shadow is the best place to start with it, if we're willing to get creative and start building up a more elaborate system.

[Vox]

Have talked about shadow as one of the main problems with stealth for a long time.

I think 'shadow' should keep you a certain number of rooms behind, set by the shadower.  I like the 'shadow/watch' forced combination in tandem with this.

i.e. Shadow 3, you are staying 3 rooms behind, you have them watched.  You're unlikely to glean so much information from them at this distance, but you also suffer no penalties to your stealth.  This is extremely low risk, casual shadowing (there is casual shadowing in the game for serious information-gathering stealthies).
    Shadow 2, you are closer.  You have them watched.  You're still not likely to glean much information, but you're closer and able to react to their behavior more readily.  Penalties are not large at this distance, at all.
    Shadow 1, you are one room away.  You have then watched.  You're in listen range for conversation.  You're able to move up and advance on them quickly, but if they go through a door you'll be left outside.  Penalties are not drastic here, but someone with max scan vs your max-hide would likely be able to spot you.
    Shadow, you are keeping tight on their position.  Close enough that you can overhear whispers.  Close enough that if they duck into a doorway, you're planning on going in with them.  It's important for you to keep close, and thus, you suffer penalties to sneak and hide.

With a set up like this, not much changes aside from that it becomes very risky to just sit there and follow people around.  At some point, if you're careless, you will get discovered, and so falling back and moving in as pertinent to what you need is more important than just typing in a single command.

While I wouldn't need the above exactly, what I am looking for is for stealth to remain powerful for those who depend on it.  The dependence on stealth is just so high, for certain classes doing certain roles, particularly with the playerbase being so averse to the stealthy classes; people do everything they can to foil a stealthy, due to how stealth works.  At the same time, I want it to be a dynamic, interactive relationship between stealthy and non-stealthy.  The stealth game should not be one command and you're good to go.  Make it so that a shadow target going around a corner requires you to move up to that corner manually before the shadow starts again.  Make it active cat and mouse and predator and prey and predator-becomes-prey situations.

All in all, I think stealth as a whole needs some revamps, but not nerfs.  Just things that make it far more interesting to use.  Shadow is the best place to start with it, if we're willing to get creative and start building up a more elaborate system.

This is brilliant and well-stated. I love all of this.
Armaddict is my new spirit animal.

[Riev]

I like the idea in theory, in practice there's a lot more to a successful disguise than a patch or a pair of armbands, and it would cause those single items to become unreasonably powerful.

True, but irrelevant, I can go get clanned Salarr today and walk into all the gates wearing nothing. It's a purely ooc concept of magickal clan involvement that works those gates.  It would make more sense to have a password then it would for someone to clan me and instantly every stronghold in the known of that clan knows I'm cool.

To get clanned you have to actually interact with members of said clan. In the "magic patch" scenario all you have to do is find a dead body.

So? It would make people in clans actually interact with each other more.

Hey who is that guy? I've seen him a few times but I never heard about a new hire...

Lock the door, draw weapon, who are you and who hired you... Fun ensues.

The idea of clan gear is an interesting one, but what happens when you link it to just a Byn aba you found? No patch, no sleeves, just some guy.

I'm all for the gate guards not knowing everybody, because sneaking into a compound should be RELATIVELY as simple as attaining the LOOK of one of their people, nodding to the guard and walking in like no problem. The only reason you'd REALLY be found out, is if you're out of routine/schedule or caught doing something stupid. Because if a PC says "Hey I havn't seen you around before", there are HUNDREDS of virtual hunters you probably havn't seen before.

That said, I don't know HOW that could be balanced out so that people aren't just ultra-hiding into compounds and noble mansions. Maybe make it based on clothing, and a legitimate "disguise" skill like people are always asking for? If you pass your disguise check, you're seen as that clan temporarily? Or, even better, if you found a Militia dustcloak, you're seen as "the something something tressed soldier" for <x> minutes?

[Vwest]

I've never had a lot of success getting 'shadow' to work properly.

So, I always 'shadow' people by manually following them in stealth and in the case of people with longer strides, it usually means a parkour through an alley, across or a roof or breaking into a run to down a different street to get in front of them, so I can resume keeping pace.

I've had a pile of people do the 'shadow into apartment' routine and honestly, there should be some kind of room-to-room watch check to spot someone shadowing you. There should be a major check when attempting to pass through a door behind someone, too. You would have to do some meandering, wide swung turns for someone to duck into a door behind you without your noticing.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I started a different thread for the clan gate idea because I think the Shadow discussion has been very good, and don't want to see the mods lock it for a few off-topic comments. :/

Anyways, I'm not really for that whole shadow 1 - 3 thing. It comes down to how you define a room. In a crowded bazaar or barroom, I should not suffer a penalty for being relatively close to my target. The place is packed to the gills. Even on a busy city street, I should be able to stick to my pray at a distance of 50-100 feet with out much of a problem. In a hallway or cramped alley or whatever, it makes less sense that I would be able to stick so close, but even then I feel like the implication is that I'm hanging out near the alley entrance waiting for them to go further down and round a corner. Or I'm slinking from garbage heap to garbage heap to stay concealed.  Being in a room with a person doesn't necessarily mean you're near them at all.

[Vox]

Being in a room with a person doesn't necessarily mean you're near them at all.

This is an excellent point.

Again I think this may just be a matter of using imagination and clever hemotes to tell the full story rather than relying on even more robust code.

[Armaddict]

Oh, like I said, it doesn't need to be that kind of exact thing.  More just an example of how stealth could be modified to make it more of a decision making process and risk-weighted endeavor.  It would make it still reliable and useful for the stealthy, but not so fail-safe that you don't have to be on your toes and paying attention.  Right now, the only downside is really if you're shadowing someone and get distracted, ending up following into a no-hide room or penalized-hide room without being told, or even worse, suffering movement lag behind a slightly faster-paced individual and getting caught in environs that are no longer stealthable for you.